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Lyzern
06-28-2011, 02:48 AM
So I met a Bard that had a Lv. 1 Sorcerer and that it gave him a boost of 450 SP, now that's 300 SP more than me (Since he has 900 SP total at Lv. 9) and I'm Lv. 11 (Spellsinger), so I want to know, is it viable for a Bard to multi-class to a sorcerer? What are the big losses? I figure I'd lose some CC ability, Capstone and Lv. 20 IC but just curious about it. Also, is it worth it at end-game? 450 SP seems a lot to me at Lv. 11, and I figure I'd get even more because of CHA bonus, but is that bonus enough to multi-class?

On a side-note that I've been thinking of, would get 1 Level of Wizard hurt me a lot? An extra feat would be nice without losing the SP (From taking fighter).

Thanks in advance.

bartosy
06-28-2011, 05:41 AM
So I met a Bard that had a Lv. 1 Sorcerer and that it gave him a boost of 450 SP, now that's 300 SP more than me (Since he has 900 SP total at Lv. 9) and I'm Lv. 11 (Spellsinger), so I want to know, is it viable for a Bard to multi-class to a sorcerer? What are the big losses? I figure I'd lose some CC ability, Capstone and Lv. 20 IC but just curious about it. Also, is it worth it at end-game? 450 SP seems a lot to me at Lv. 11, and I figure I'd get even more because of CHA bonus, but is that bonus enough to multi-class?

On a side-note that I've been thinking of, would get 1 Level of Wizard hurt me a lot? An extra feat would be nice without losing the SP (From taking fighter).

Thanks in advance.

no its not worth it especially not for a spellsinger. Later on in game there
many many ways to cvercome sp problems you ll find out the moment you hit 12 and get spellsinger II and the spellsong vigor song..

Do not multiclass your spellsinger if your new you probably will regret it later on the capstone is very valuable to you.

English_Warrior
06-28-2011, 05:50 AM
So I met a Bard that had a Lv. 1 Sorcerer and that it gave him a boost of 450 SP, now that's 300 SP more than me (Since he has 900 SP total at Lv. 9) and I'm Lv. 11 (Spellsinger), so I want to know, is it viable for a Bard to multi-class to a sorcerer? What are the big losses? I figure I'd lose some CC ability, Capstone and Lv. 20 IC but just curious about it. Also, is it worth it at end-game? 450 SP seems a lot to me at Lv. 11, and I figure I'd get even more because of CHA bonus, but is that bonus enough to multi-class?

On a side-note that I've been thinking of, would get 1 Level of Wizard hurt me a lot? An extra feat would be nice without losing the SP (From taking fighter).

Thanks in advance.

1 level of sorc over 1 level of bard is nothing like 450sp....its a base difference of 155sp...and a 5% increase in item granted spellpoints.

Ngha
06-28-2011, 06:24 AM
double.

*EDIT* at least anything that ups spell point in any other way besides upping CHA

Dexol
06-28-2011, 06:46 AM
double.

*EDIT* at least anything that ups spell point in any other way besides upping CHA

No you dont get double, you get the item base + ((base/20)* Sorc level))

So for a magi item with 1 level on sorc 100 + ((100/20)*1)= 105 sp like English said.

only full sorcs ( and fvs) get the full bonus.

And to OP, i wouldnt advise 1 level of sorc

TheDearLeader
06-28-2011, 10:34 AM
So I was chatting with one of my guildies, and talking about how Charisma-based classes tend to not play with other Charisma-based classes. And he brought up the Bard 19/Sorc 1 builds. "For the SP", he says. He doesn't agree with it, but that seems to be the reason given.

Now, I was on my Spellsinger at the time, and I'm looking at my SP bar.. 1599 SP.

Then I decide to do some fancy math and see how much SP is granted.
+180 SP, Sorc Level 1 w/Magical Training.
+17 SP, max extra bonus for Archmagi + 150 GS SP.
-25 SP, loss of Bard Level 20
-29 SP, loss of Bardic Capstone's +2 to Charisma, and the Bonus spell points that came with it.
= 143 SP gained.

... I admit, I am a bit confused about the "Bonus Spell Points" section. From what I'm reading, 1 Level of Sorc w/38 Charisma would be giving..an extra 140 bonus SP?

If I'm reading that right, that's 283 SP. If someone else could confirm, that'd be great.

Be the number 143, or 283, is it crazy of me to not understand this build? Multiclassing at the last minute loses you:

Improved Inspire Courage 3 (+1 Attack, Damage, Save vs. Charm/Fear Effects)
+3 Songs
+3 Spell Pen
+3 Enchantment DC, +1 other DCs
+20% Duration to Beneficial Songs
+1 Attack Bonus
+1 Reflex Save
Edit:+2 to UMD/Diplo/many other Charisma-Based skills.

To gain:
+1 Will Save
+2 1st Level Sorc Spells
+143/283 Spell points.

Is this really a useful tradeoff? I see a lot of good Bardic multiclasses out there, but this one just does not seem appealing. Anyone have any insight into this?

Click on the little arrow beside my name inside the quote box if you want to read the conversation on this. But long story short - no, there's really no good reason to do this.

English_Warrior
06-28-2011, 11:34 AM
Click on the little arrow beside my name inside the quote box if you want to read the conversation on this. But long story short - no, there's really no good reason to do this.

Yes...thats a very thorough breakdown.

I too was a little confused by the wiki entry on bonus spell point stacking (plus that entry is almost 2 years old at this point)....but I agree with your assessment of that variable...the real total sp gained is much closer to 250sp than it is to 450sp.

And I completely agree...either way....it really isn't worth it.

TheDearLeader
06-28-2011, 11:45 AM
Yes...thats a very thorough breakdown.

I too was a little confused by the wiki entry on bonus spell point stacking (plus that entry is almost 2 years old at this point)....but I agree with your assessment...the real sp gained is much closer to 250sp than it is to 450sp.

And I completely agree...either way....it really isn't worth it.

Yeah... Hoba, who now has his tasty Litany and a +7 Charisma item, is over 1600 spell points. That's as a Spellsinger, Shroud SP Item, Archmagi, but no Mental Toughness/Improved Mental Toughness/Guild Augment Slot SP item. So, technically that value could get even higher.

And lets face it... 1600's a great number of spell points. I've been the solo blue bar in Epics before, assigned to the dual tasks of CC and Healing, and the blue bar has lasted. In raids, I hardly go below half (except Abbot, perhaps, due to Inferno). Combined with Spellsong Trance and Vigor, that blue bar lasts as long as the Spellsinger in question really needs it to - and if not? Well, there's always the option of farming for the Bauble/eSSRing/eTTalisman for clickie SP recovery. I've never felt the need, but the option is there.

Maybe the SP hurts at lower levels, but of course that is also dependent upon you and your party's speed progressing through a quest.

Either way, when I went and broke down what was gained, and what was lost, I just stared and said... "Who would do that, and why?"

Go pure. Pure Spellsinger is filled with massive amounts of win.

Lyzern
06-28-2011, 12:17 PM
Click on the little arrow beside my name inside the quote box if you want to read the conversation on this. But long story short - no, there's really no good reason to do this.

Thanks everyone but especially you (TheDearLeader) for such a complete reason. I wouldn't multi-class this life anyway (Aiming for capstone to see it and etc), I was just gathering information for maybe next lifes or so.

Missing_Minds
06-28-2011, 12:44 PM
emm.. Bard 19 / sorc 1 means...

. BAB of 14, not 15.
. 200 more sp. (see below)
. 5% more sp out of spell point items.
. No bard capstone.
. Sorc grants magical training so you can regain SP when you run out via echo's of power.
. Comparing 19 to 20 bard, -1 reflex save, +1 will save.
. use of sorc/wizard only wands without UMD.



SP (assuming 20 cha) difference between bard 19 and bard 20 is 30 sp.
Sorc 1 lvl with cha of 20 grants 230 sp.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Sorcerer
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Bard


Bard Capstones
..Bard Musical Prodigy: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.
.. I could have sworn there was a melee one that added sonic lore, let alone sonic burst to your weapons.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Bard

Valindria
06-28-2011, 01:34 PM
Could go 18/1/1 Bard/Sorc/Fvs and tripple dip off of CHA. Not that it would be worth it, but something that always makes me smile.

Missing_Minds
06-28-2011, 01:41 PM
Could go 18/1/1 Bard/Sorc/Fvs and tripple dip off of CHA. Not that it would be worth it, but something that always makes me smile.

Wand usage without fail, no umd needed.

It does make me wonder just what % you'd get off spell point items.

Aashrym
06-29-2011, 01:09 AM
Wand usage is without fail with the UMD and the spell points are enough anyway. I might be curious too but I could never see myself making a splash like that.

I'd like to add there is a lot of SP from the mass DV proc's too.

Symar-FangofLloth
06-29-2011, 06:05 AM
Wand usage without fail, no umd needed.

It does make me wonder just what % you'd get off spell point items.

10%

Sorcerer and FvS levels stack for determining bonus sp off of items. (Not that there's ever any good reason to make one like this.)

LordArkan
06-29-2011, 06:39 AM
It'd be worth doing if you're already splashing something else (see Babababird-- 1531 SP + Evasion), since 18/2 vs 17/2/1 is only a loss of Mass Suggestion, which would eat into your Spellsongs anyway. I wouldn't do it on its own, though.

Missing_Minds
06-29-2011, 06:58 AM
10%

Sorcerer and FvS levels stack for determining bonus sp off of items. (Not that there's ever any good reason to make one like this.)

That is what simple thinking tell you (10%) but what does it actually do in game? I've never tried. I probalby should just for grins, you know with a lvl 4 character. I should be able to get 50% technically that way.

You know... it would be funny if echos of power kicked in twice as much.