PDA

View Full Version : Turn Undead



Xenostrata
06-26-2011, 10:05 AM
As I was playing today, I realized that after the u9 spell pass Turn Undead has become the only ability that is based entirely on HD (trap the soul has HD versions, but the saves are all DC based). This renders it almost entirely useless past the mid levels (like all HD effects in DDO), which is kind of sad as a signature move of clerics everywhere. To add insult to injury, they've made it so that those Turn attempts can instead be used for Divine Might, Radiant Burst, etc., making the levels where it might be useful just as likely to ignore it as a capped character. Another kick in the face was that the spell pass actually made arcanes just as good at destroying undead than clerics, with the Undeath to Death spell.

My thoughts were that Turn Undead could also be changed to a DC based effect, because, due to the natural affect of a real time combat system over a turn based one on a monsters stats, HD are much higher in DDO than they were in PnP. Instead, TU could have a DC based on cleric/paladin levels and their charisma modifier, with a save to avoid being destroyed, followed by a save to avoid being frozen, followed by a save to avoid being Feared. There could also be an aspect that limits the amount of targets based on the character level.

This would mean redesigning all of the seldom used item effects that grant bonuses to TU like sacred and eternal faith. I think this could mostly be easily done, by changing any effect that increase the max HD turned into simply increasing number of undead turned, and any effect boosting cleric level or max HD possible could just boost the DC.

I just thought it was kind of sad that the most iconic move of the PnP cleric has been rendered completely useless in DDO.

EDIT: Math done. Highest HP undead that could be turned by a capped, TRed, and geared cleric is 312. Highest HP undead that could be destroyed is 192 (156 without x3 cleric PL). Biggest number of 312 hp undeads turnable at a time is 3.

shores11
06-26-2011, 10:10 AM
As I was playing today, I realized that after the u9 spell pass Turn Undead has become the only ability that is based entirely on HD (trap the soul has HD versions, but the saves are all DC based). This renders it almost entirely useless past the mid levels (like all HD effects in DDO, which is kind of sad as a signature move of clerics everywhere. To add insult to injury, they've made it so that those Turn attempts can instead be used for Divine Might, Radiant Burst, etc., making the levels where it might be useful just as likely to ignore it as a capped character. Another kick in the face was that the spell pass actually made arcanes just as good at destroying undead than clerics, with the Undeath to Death spell.

My thoughts were that Turn Undead could also be changed to a DC based effect, because, due to the natural affect of a real time combat system over a turn based one on a monsters stats, HD are much higher in DDO than they were in PnP. Instead, TU could have a DC based on cleric/paladin levels and their charisma modifier, with a save to avoid being destroyed, followed by a save to avoid being frozen, followed by a save to avoid being Feared. There could also be an aspect that limits the amount of targets based on the character level.

This would mean redesigning all of the seldom used item effects that grant bonuses to TU like sacred and eternal faith. I think this could mostly be easily done, by changing any effect that increase the max HD turned into simply increasing number of undead turned, and any effect boosting cleric level or max HD possible could just boost the DC.

I just thought it was kind of sad that the most iconic move of the PnP cleric has been rendered completely useless in DDO.

/not signed

I have no problem's turning undead both on my cleric or paladin. So to say it is useless is entirely inaccurate as I use turn underad frequently on both of my characters. Now one might argue that there should be more undead in the game, on this I can agree.

Shade
06-26-2011, 10:33 AM
This renders it almost entirely useless past the mid levels (like all HD effects in DDO, which is kind of sad as a signature move of clerics everywhere.)

Not really at all true anymore since they improved TU and added so many ways to boost its effectiveness.

I've seen Paladins turn undead very successfully in the highest level elite undead quests. And clerics are far more effective at it.

The only place it probably won't work too well is epic, and being theres only a single heavy undead epic quest in the game (wiz king) I wouldn't worry too much about that. And it might even be possible to do that, fully maxxed out with all the +turn undead stuff.

And no turn undead is not a signature of move of all clerics. It's a signature move of clerics that actually specialize in it. Like all things in ddo, if you want them to be effective at high lvl, youll need to the get some of the related enhancements/gear/feats.

Xenostrata
06-26-2011, 10:59 AM
Not really at all true anymore since they improved TU and added so many ways to boost its effectiveness.

I've seen Paladins turn undead very successfully in the highest level elite undead quests. And clerics are far more effective at it.

The only place it probably won't work too well is epic, and being theres only a single heavy undead epic quest in the game (wiz king) I wouldn't worry too much about that. And it might even be possible to do that, fully maxxed out with all the +turn undead stuff.

And no turn undead is not a signature of move of all clerics. It's a signature move of clerics that actually specialize in it. Like all things in ddo, if you want them to be effective at high lvl, youll need to the get some of the related enhancements/gear/feats.

I meant signature in PnP. In DDO it is anything but.

TU can affect at most a 26 HD undead mob (26*12=312 hp mob), and can destroy only a 13 HD (16 with triple cleric PL) undead mob (13*12=156 hp mob). In what quests were you running high level, elite, and at level 20 (if you were running at level, it would be significantly less) did you find mobs with 312 hp? Also, if you are running a quest at level 20 with 26 HD mobs and decide to turn them, you'll only be able to get 2 (3 if you are built specifically for it).

Silverwren
06-27-2011, 07:28 AM
/not signed

I have no difficulties turning undead, particularly when I use a sacred item and a Seek Eternal Rest spell together. Seems like it would be a lot of work changing all the sacred items over.

Illiain
06-27-2011, 07:49 AM
Turns work well against single targets for a RS. Otherwise just use RS burst. It deals more damage to undead than it heals living. I've seen crits well into the 1.5k range, plus it hits everything instead of topping out.

The difference between instakilling and one shotting is you don't get to see your huge aoe damages with instakills.

Losercrew
06-27-2011, 07:57 AM
and being theres only a single heavy undead epic quest in the game (wiz king)

Blach loch is pretty undead heavy as well

kilagan800
06-27-2011, 04:54 PM
My level 19 Cleric can use Turn Undead just fine, though I mainly rely on bursts. And I've never had problems with turn undead in mid-levels. People thanked me for it. I used my action points on turn undead and added the number of times to turn undead. I now have 17 shots of turn undead/radiant burst/radiant aura.

AnubisPrime
08-17-2011, 09:59 PM
I was able to turn undead on epic Black Loch this evening. Granted I could only turn 1-2 at a time, but that with alternating radiant burst was pretty effective at bringing their numbers down--especially in the prison room where waves of them come out of the cells.

I am a cleric TR'd to a cleric (34 point build).
I have Gauntlets of Eternity (Eternal Faith).
I have a crafted Silver Flame trinket (+6 to HD which trumps the +4 from the Gauntlets).
I have max feats and enhancements to turn undead.
I have Seek Eternal Rest.
I have a buffed Charisma of 28 (and a buffed Wisdom of 40), and I have a total of 23 turns (when buffed)

I will again TR him into a cleric likely 2 more times...