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willemvh
06-23-2011, 08:43 AM
I wanna roll a rogue for the first time but i got alot of questions.

can you make a valid "dagger rogue" ? getting all damage from sneaks and effects on the various nice daggers out there

How squishy are you really ?

What is your main damage endgame ?

would a rogue with precesion feat (bypass fort etc) usefull (with the dagger specc ?)

barryman5000
06-23-2011, 08:49 AM
I wanna roll a rogue for the first time but i got alot of questions.

can you make a valid "dagger rogue" ? getting all damage from sneaks and effects on the various nice daggers out there
Sneak attack damage can make any weapon work.
How squishy are you really ?
If you don't get aggro and don't dump con you will be a great asset to any party. My rogues rarely die.
What is your main damage endgame ?
Sneak attack damage
would a rogue with precesion feat (bypass fort etc) usefull (with the dagger specc ?)
Not really. It halves your sneak attack damage as well. Maybe a math crazy person can say different?


Answers (or opinions) above.

Kakow
06-23-2011, 08:51 AM
You're going to be told not to use daggers. You're going to be told yes they're squishy. Characters are what you make of them and how they're played. Yes, there is a maximum possible damage per second in this game just like anything else, but if you want a dagger rogue, then use daggers. Will you do as much damage as the guys with bigger blades? No. Do I know a buddy of mine who swears by the Precision feat on his assassin? Yeah, he says it helps promise him the assassination attack will land...I cannot argue that logic. I wouldn't pick that feat, but he says it works for him and I've seen him succeed with it time and again. Could you make a rogue without it? I'd say most rogues (or melee players of any kind) do not choose daggers or Precision feat.

As to the question of a "valid" endgame dagger rogue, the power players who want maximum possible damage per second and the absolute least amount of time in any quest will probably mock you.

For those of us who realize it's just a game, we'll welcome you.

WirelessJoe
06-23-2011, 08:58 AM
I wanna roll a rogue for the first time but i got alot of questions.

can you make a valid "dagger rogue" ? getting all damage from sneaks and effects on the various nice daggers out there

How squishy are you really ?

What is your main damage endgame ?

would a rogue with precision feat (bypass fort etc) useful (with the dagger specc ?)

Assassin rogues are viable with two muckbanes, if built properly. There are multiple good builds in the forums (I think even some "dagger rogue" discussions). No, you won't match the DPS of a Khopesh with daggers, but if it's a build you enjoy, you should build it anyway. Your main damage will be from sneak attacks and vorpal strikes at end-game.

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of choices for feats if you want to build a "good" rogue. I would not recommend taking precision and trading half your damage for bypassing fortification unless all you're going to be doing is assassinating (you shouldn't need the +4 to attack either). Take Opportunist instead. Also take as many toughness feats as you can as well as improved evasion for "squishiness". If you go STR based, you'll also want power attack.

If you're going to use daggers exclusively, I'd recommend (you probably already know this) a quick look at the polycurse dagger.

Namey
06-23-2011, 09:13 AM
Good general rogue advice thread can be found here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274155).


can you make a valid "dagger rogue" ? getting all damage from sneaks and effects on the various nice daggers out there

You can make a pretty valid rogue with almost any weapon, assuming you have enough +hit to connect your attacks, and you make sure you get your sneak attacks. You will obviously do less damage than the half-orc rogue dual wielding khopeshes, but you won't be useless either. As long as you can do traps and locks as well as any normal rogue, most people wont notice or care what weapon you have. Some people might comment, but who cares?


How squishy are you really ?

Anywhere between "very" and "not at all." Your HP is something you really want to pay attention to, especially if you're rolling your first rogue. For a primary melee class, rogues have the lowest HP out there. Don't dump Con, make sure you have up to date +Con and False Life items. Keep up your Reflex save high to take an advantage of your Evasion. And if you know what you are doing, consider taking levels in another less squishy class.


What is your main damage endgame ?

Rogue damage can be excellent, but if you're using a weapon like the dagger, you will be very dependent on Sneak Attack damage. You both have a low damage weapon, and a mediocre crit profile on it. So make sure you have your Threat Reduction high enough that you won't pull aggro, so you keep getting those sneak attacks. Diplomacy or Bluff might also work for you. I'd also heavily advice going Str primary, dex secondary, even on a dagger rogue. This way you'll compensate the lower weapon damage die, and will be slightly closer in damage to more cookie cutter builds.


would a rogue with precesion feat (bypass fort etc) usefull (with the dagger specc ?)

Not entirely familiar how good the feat is. All I know is I've never seen a build recommend it. Honestly, between feats like toughness, power attack and the TWF chain, I have a hard time justifying taking this myself. I'd just take the rogue Special Ability, Opportunist, and call it a day.

DeathsApprentice
06-23-2011, 09:22 AM
If you go STR based, you'll also want power attack.


Even if you go Dex-based, you'll want at least 13 Strength (with a tome) to pick up Power Attack. +5 damage per swing is too good not to take.

Back on topic:
The most important attribute on a weapon isn't the base damage, it's the critical profile. That's why kopeshes are so powerful. A dagger has 19-20/x2, which isn't bad. Not great, but not bad. The main selling point for using daggers is the price (and maybe the looks). Daggers are dirt cheap on the AH. And they use the same feat (improved crit: piercing) as a rapier, which means that you can easily switch to rapiers or shortswords if you want.
When you start making greensteel, for instance, I'd recommend a rapier for Radiance II instead of a dagger.

As already said: don't worry about damage. Your 17d6+15 (?) sneak attack damage per swing, let's say 80 damage average, puts your DPS up there with fighters and barbarians, regardless of weapon choice.

Precision also halves your sneak attack damage, so it's not worth it. If you want to do more damage to fortified mobs, use Power Attack and make sure your Strength is high.

willemvh
06-23-2011, 10:16 AM
thanks for the fast advice guys :) topic closed !

LOOON375
06-23-2011, 01:09 PM
Yes you can use daggers with a rogue. I have a rogue that uses daggers myself. Any weapon in this game is viable and usable regardless of what some on this forum seem to think.

A rogues true power and DPS comes from sneak attack damage anyway. You can basically consider it a critical hit and it happens more often than not, if you play the toon right. Sneak attack damage is the same regardless of the weapon being used.

I would suggest going with at least a 16 con and build from there. 15 for dex to get the TWF feats later on. Anymore than 15 initially is a waste. Give yourself as much as possible into strength and dump the rest into intelligence.

Start off with sword and board for the first 6 or so levels. Fighting with two weapons before you get the TWF feats is a waste as you will miss more than what would be acceptable.

WirelessJoe
06-23-2011, 02:11 PM
Start off with sword and board for the first 6 or so levels. Fighting with two weapons before you get the TWF feats is a waste as you will miss more than what would be acceptable.

I started with a staff; If you're a TR or you have some friends that will take you through The Chronoscope (level 6), The Staff Of Nat Gann is an excellent starter to farm as it's ML 4, and has/is:

+2 Enhancement Bonus
Dodge Bonus +1
Dexterity +4
Sneak Attack Bonus +2
Silver, Alchemical

The DEX +4 means that even if you're a STR build, your DEX will most likely be higher during the lower levels (assuming you start with 15 for the TWF line), and the staff's damage and attack mod are both DEX.

katz
06-23-2011, 02:33 PM
I wanna roll a rogue for the first time but i got alot of questions.

can you make a valid "dagger rogue" ? getting all damage from sneaks and effects on the various nice daggers out there
yes. daggers are not the standard premiere high ultimate DPS weapon, but not everyone wants to be a cookie cutter. since a good deal of my damage comes from sneak attack, i've even done surprisingly good damage on the surprise fiendish trog during shroud with my portal beaters... i don't have a great set yet, so i'm limping along with 2 weapons of Greater Construct Bane, just for the bane damage... a kama and a light hammer. O.o

How squishy are you really ?
336 HP, 100% fort, and around a 30 reflex save (self buffed, higher in a raid) at 18th. maybe not uber, but not too shabby, either. you are only as squishy as you allow yourself to be.. and trust me, i used to be plenty squishy O.o i LRed my rogue to fix, among other things, the squishiness. search the forums for sockpuppet... now THAT's a non-squishy rogue! edit: actually, nevermind... HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=309669&highlight=sockpuppet) check that out

What is your main damage endgame ?
sneak attack. of course i don't do so well against mobs with fort, but everything else i eat up like candy

would a rogue with precesion feat (bypass fort etc) usefull (with the dagger specc ?)i don't know. i don't have that feat

build your character how you want to, but don't neglect con, HP, or fort. if you are playing, having fun, and doing your job WELL, ignore the people that give you **** for doing something non-standard