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Valindria
06-21-2011, 03:58 PM
Rogues can select one additional feat at levels 10, 13, 16, and 19 from the list below. Skill Mastery may be taken more than once.

Crippling Strike: Sneak attacks inflict 2 strength damage
Defensive Roll: A chance to reduce attack damage at low health
Improved Evasion: half damage on a failed reflex save
Opportunist: 3% double strike chance and bypasses 10% fortification
Skill Mastery: +1 on all skills
Slippery Mind: 2 saving throws against Will-based enchantments

I propose adding the combat feats that require Sneak Attack to the list as options. That would be

- Improved Feint
- Hamstring
- Sap (doesn't require SA but feels like a rogue skill to me, maybe due to other games)

Another ideas:

- Nimble Fingers Instead of +1 to all skills of skill mastery it would be +2 to 2 rogue skills (OL and DD).
- Sneak of Shadows (Rogue Past Life)
- Precision
edit:
- Improved Sunder

What do you think? Over powered? Cool new Rogue skills? Waste of time? Shut up Val and go back to the bard forums?

LoveNeverFails
06-21-2011, 04:03 PM
Shut up Val and go back to the bard forums?

This. ;) (jk)

On a serious note though, I really do miss playing rogues. Anything to bring the class back would be nice. This is an interesting idea. I'd prefer bigger and badder traps, but meh. Beggers can't be choosers.

dkyle
06-21-2011, 04:11 PM
Anything to bring the class back would be nice.

Where'd it go? Rogue is a great class. Capable of the highest DPS, and great survivability. The only problem are players that fail to build for either of those things, and a player base that mistakenly think all Rogues are said gimps.

As for the OP suggestions, I'd go with largely a waste of time, but I guess some might like them, and I can't imagine it taking much time to add them, so why not?

Jaid314
06-21-2011, 05:29 PM
if you go back to their roots, rogues are supposed to be allowed to choose a bonus feat (any bonus feat) instead of the rogue abilities, so i would go a step further and say we should be allowed to choose from all feats.

Aesop
06-21-2011, 05:36 PM
Just let them take a Feat in place of the special abilities if they want.

Does Opportunist stack with itself? I haven't built a rogue in a while

Aesop

QuantumFX
06-21-2011, 05:40 PM
if you go back to their roots, rogues are supposed to be allowed to choose a bonus feat (any bonus feat) instead of the rogue abilities, so i would go a step further and say we should be allowed to choose from all feats.

According to Eladrin there are a lot of issues with going this route. (Thread long since deleted. Information came about when Rogue bonus feats are actually implemented in DDO instead of Improved Evasion being autogranted.)

That said. I would like to see the class specific past life feats added to the bonus feat lists. (Ex. Arcane Initiate added to Wizard, Sneak of Shadows added to Rogue) I know some people will whine about how it supposedly “Overpowers the classes that get a lot of feats” and they would be dead wrong. Wizard and Fighter can already get their purchaseable PL feats without this. It only makes the order of picking up feats easier. So, it would only be a tangible bonus for rogues. (Who are highly unlikely to pick up their class PL feat.)

parowan
06-21-2011, 07:42 PM
I propose adding the combat feats that require Sneak Attack to the list as options. That would be

- Improved Feint
- Hamstring
- Sap (doesn't require SA but feels like a rogue skill to me, maybe due to other games)

Another idea:

- Nimble Fingers Instead of +1 to all skills of skill mastery it would be +2 to 2 rogue skills (OL and DD).

What do you think? Over powered? Cool new Rogue skills? Waste of time? Shut up Val and go back to the bard forums?

/signed

I think it's ridiculous that my dashing and debonair swashbuckling rogue needs to take frickin combat expertise before he can take improved feint. And sap? Sometimes even assassins are paid to bring the target in still breathing.

jkm
06-21-2011, 08:00 PM
You probably should add a few more feats to that list

Sneak of Shadows
Precision

Valindria
06-22-2011, 11:41 AM
Added Sneak of Shadows and Precision to the list.

Impaqt
06-22-2011, 11:47 AM
Special Abilities
On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.

Crippling Strike (Ex)
A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

Defensive Roll (Ex)
The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

Improved Evasion (Ex)
This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Opportunist (Ex)
Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Skill Mastery
The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

Slippery Mind (Ex)
This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

Feat
A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

Valindria
09-26-2011, 04:20 PM
With the changes to fortifcation I propse Improved Sunder be added to the list.

parowan
09-26-2011, 04:24 PM
With the changes to fortifcation I propse Improved Sunder be added to the list.

I can support that, although at end game a lot of rogues might have trouble getting the DC high enough. I'd like to see the improved bluff enhancements reduce fort, kind of like wrack construct.

Angelus_dead
09-26-2011, 04:31 PM
I propose adding the combat feats that require Sneak Attack to the list as options.
I suggest following the D&D 3.5 rules and adding every generic feat to the list of options.

barryman5000
09-26-2011, 04:37 PM
I suggest following the D&D 3.5 rules and adding every generic feat to the list of options.



Great, I guess it was time for people to start complaining about the OP rogues. It needed to happen someday.

In about 6 months from now we can start talking about the OP bards and their fancy tier III prestige's :)

/sarcasm

karl_k0ch
09-29-2011, 10:51 AM
\signed

I agree, it wouldn't hurt to have more options.

As it has been pointed out above, the PnP rules allow to take a generic feat instead of the rogue special abilities.
While choice is always good, I imagine that Devs would be rather reluctant to include the whole feat list, but a restricted choice of generic feats wouldn't be a bad thing, perhaps including:

some Combat Abilities: Hamstring, Improved Feint, Sap
some Combat Stances: Precision, Improved Precise Shot
some Passive Feats: Weapon Finesse, Precise Shot, maybe also Quickdraw and/or Rapid Reload
selected Skill Bonus Feats, both "+2 to two" and "+3 to one" versions
Save Bonus feats: Insightful Reflexs, Lightning Reflexes


This list also includes bad feats, but the choice is driven by flavor, not effectiveness.

Note that this is a repost of something I wrote in a different thread, but I felt it belonged here.