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View Full Version : Special Prestige Enhancements for Multiclassers



Chrasch
06-20-2011, 01:37 AM
Becomes available at level 10 and grants special bonuses related to the classes

5 levels in Cleric + 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer = Mystic Theurge
5 levels in Ranger + 5 levels in Cleric = Druid
5 levels in Fighter + 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer = Swordmage

I'm sure there are others but i can't think of them right now. Also there could be a much more powerful version available at level 20 for those that are 10 and 10.

Zachski
06-20-2011, 01:55 AM
They would have to be powerful to justify a half split.

phum
06-20-2011, 02:23 AM
I like the idea a lot. The system could cover many class compositions. Such as

<> - Barb + rogue
<> - Barb + bard
<> - ranger + wizard/bard/sorc (more powerful or versatile aa?)
<> - Fighter + cleric

etc. Many possibilities. Not all possibilities should be buffed tho. Only those that could use it. Most are currently.. non-existent:)

Some 5-5-5 (or 6-6-6 or 4-4-4 or sumthin) splits could be added too. Guess this is one of (maybe many) great ideas I hope the devs would someday get to:) For me, multiclassing is perhaps the most fascinating thing about d&d/ddo.

Hmm. Guess I'd like it more to be more incremental. Such as 1st at 3-3, 2nd at 6-6 etc. Wouldn't need to be so.. influential.

Chrasch
06-20-2011, 03:09 AM
I like the idea a lot. The system could cover many class compositions. Such as

<> - Barb + rogue
<> - Barb + bard
<> - ranger + wizard/bard/sorc (more powerful or versatile aa?)
<> - Fighter + cleric

etc. Many possibilities. Not all possibilities should be buffed tho. Only those that could use it. Most are currently.. non-existent:)

Some 5-5-5 (or 6-6-6 or 4-4-4 or sumthin) splits could be added too. Guess this is one of (maybe many) great ideas I hope the devs would someday get to:) For me, multiclassing is perhaps the most fascinating thing about d&d/ddo.

Hmm. Guess I'd like it more to be more incremental. Such as 1st at 3-3, 2nd at 6-6 etc. Wouldn't need to be so.. influential.

I chose the ones i did because those are actual classes: Mystic Theurge, Druid, and Swordmage. The idea is to create pseudo-classes that are in D&D and not DDO. Fighter and Cleric kind of equals Paladin or Favored Soul. For example i thought of another one I thought of just now: Wizard + Sorcerer + Chaotic alignment = Warlock.

Lyzern
06-20-2011, 03:42 AM
How about this:

6+ Levels of Bard (Virtuoso Prestige required) + Y levels of Rogue
Silent Charmer
Passive: Your songs do not alert you of your presence, instead they emit sound through echoes and monsters aren't alerted by them, making them vulerable to any song effects without notice. (This would be good if you were in Stealth and wanted to cast Fascinate/Enthral)
Active: A single attack that sleeps one enemy and reduces its AC by X, the monsters have Y% chance to wake with an attack, the sleep lasts for N seconds.

Just something I thought of cause I like this combo for some reason.

Spellsinger + Wizard prestiges would also be good for the metamagic feats I suppose.

BOgre
06-20-2011, 03:50 AM
Leaving the mechanics of this to the experts, but at first glance this sounds like a good idea. It would make the 'flavor' builds so much more viable, and the game could certainly use more flavor.

mmmm, donuts...

what were we talking about again?

Arlathen
06-20-2011, 03:55 AM
Hmm, good idea, potential for abuse like any offered 'extra' abilities though - who remebers every multiclass having Ranger 6/Tempest1 with the +10% Competence Attack Speed bonus? However, that depends on implementation by the Devs, I guess.

Some multiclass love would be nice though :)

phum
06-20-2011, 04:37 AM
I chose the ones i did because those are actual classes: Mystic Theurge, Druid, and Swordmage. The idea is to create pseudo-classes that are in D&D and not DDO. Fighter and Cleric kind of equals Paladin or Favored Soul. For example i thought of another one I thought of just now: Wizard + Sorcerer + Chaotic alignment = Warlock.

Yep:) Many possibilities. To what extent they should be based on D&D prestige classes is debatable, but I guess it would be a bonus:) Anything they add about mc prestiges could pretty much be a bonus for me tho.

The more they try to stick to D&D the harder it might become imo.. Didn't the divorce happen already? (just joking:D any additional reference to actual D&D is definetly a plus for me too^^)

bigolbear
06-20-2011, 04:46 AM
this is a concept i and many others asked for a long time ago (when prestiges started to appear). that post was aknowleged by eu admin and passed to devs at the time, im sure there was a similar thread on the us servers too. The result was the current incarnation of arcane archer and warchanter both of which are highly suited to many multiclass builds.

Unfortunately the capstones have negatively impacted both of these prestiges when it comes to multiclassing. When warchanter was released for example at cap 16 a multiclass bard warchanter could have better songs than a pure bard - with a detriment to spellcasting of course. arcane archer on the other hand gave an elven mage a serious option for if they wanted to conserve mana which due to SLA's etc is no longer a problem.

Id be all for both of these getting a fresh look with the eye to make them multiclass freindly again and the same goes for the planned 'warpriest' and 'acolyte of the skin'

phum
06-20-2011, 05:09 AM
this is a concept i and many others asked for a long time ago (when prestiges started to appear). that post was aknowleged by eu admin and passed to devs at the time, im sure there was a similar thread on the us servers too. The result was the current incarnation of arcane archer and warchanter both of which are highly suited to many multiclass builds.

Unfortunately the capstones have negatively impacted both of these prestiges when it comes to multiclassing. When warchanter was released for example at cap 16 a multiclass bard warchanter could have better songs than a pure bard - with a detriment to spellcasting of course. arcane archer on the other hand gave an elven mage a serious option for if they wanted to conserve mana which due to SLA's etc is no longer a problem.

Id be all for both of these getting a fresh look with the eye to make them multiclass freindly again and the same goes for the planned 'warpriest' and 'acolyte of the skin'

Thx for info^^ Really hope they are going for more multiclass friendly enhancements..

Aesop
06-20-2011, 05:16 AM
I like the concept, it has been brought up before. If it does happen it likely will be after all the pure class PrEs are finished.

Druid however is a Class not a PrC and so would not be included. Not if Turbine wanted to avoid a group of angry nerds rampaging all over them.


Other potential additions

Eldritch Knight (Fighter/Wizard)
Arcane Trickster (Rogue/Wizard)
Ultimate Magus (Sorcerer/Wizard)
Rage Mage (Barbarian/Wizard)


Aesop

Gauthaag
06-20-2011, 05:18 AM
and True necromancer - wizzy/cleric

Maxson
06-20-2011, 05:26 AM
The major problem I can see with this idea is twofold:

1. It railroads builders; When building a multiclass toon, not just the enhancements are important but the core abilities of the classes, if you implement some super powered PrE that you can only get by losing out on core feats then you're going to force feats to be less important and also make multi-classes that don't get a PrE resentful or more likely to pick that multi-class to get hold of the PrE, which brings me to problem #2

2. If you want to please people with this idea you have to plan for every eventuality, there has to be a good variety or you will kill interesting or flavour builds, people will only build towards getting their sweet-ass PrEs.

One of the beauties of DDO's system is the level of flexibility, building your toon specifically around a PrE can be kind of a bad idea (and a great way to gimp yourself when they change the PrE)

Besides this, many PrEs in the game are already ones you'd need to take a combination of classes to get, A ranger can't just become an arcane archer without levels in an arcane class.

Mystic Theurge is a particularly bad idea (and probably a monster to implement) as it gives you spells from both schools of magic, it's perhaps /too/ overpowered for DDO, it's probably far simpler to give cleric a PrE that gives them access to some arcane spells or a wizard access to some divine spells instead...alternatively be a half elf of either and select the other as your dilettante ;p

I can say that I LIKE the idea of multi-class based PrEs (as that's what the majority of prestige classes are anyhow), I just can't see how they could be implemented into DDO without being awful.

Aesop
06-20-2011, 06:05 AM
One thing I've always wished was that the Enhancements were less tied to Classes.

If PrEs weren't tied to the 6/12/18 of classes and instead were tied to Feats Skills and Features then there could be more variety of builds.

If Enhancements themselves were tied more to the build and less the class then we could see vastly different build choices and options open up.

Then again people gravitate towards the most "optimal" and thus maybe we wouldn't see much difference. I would play different things... then again I try to now anyway... though less so with the power of some high tier PrEs

Aesop

Pingshot
06-20-2011, 07:01 AM
One thing I've always wished was that the Enhancements were less tied to Classes.

If PrEs weren't tied to the 6/12/18 of classes and instead were tied to Feats Skills and Features then there could be more variety of builds.

If Enhancements themselves were tied more to the build and less the class then we could see vastly different build choices and options open up.

Then again people gravitate towards the most "optimal" and thus maybe we wouldn't see much difference. I would play different things... then again I try to now anyway... though less so with the power of some high tier PrEs

Aesop

Something like this:
Eldritch Knight Require All: Power attack; Require One of: Wizard 5, Sorcerer 6, Bard 7
Divine Champion Require All: Weapon Focus; Require One of: Cleric 1, FvS 1, Paladin 4, Ranger 4
Sacred Fist Requre All: Stunning fist, Combat Casting; Require One of: Cleric 1, FvS 1, Paladin 4, Ranger 4

Chrasch
06-20-2011, 10:54 AM
The major problem I can see with this idea is twofold:

1. It railroads builders; When building a multiclass toon, not just the enhancements are important but the core abilities of the classes, if you implement some super powered PrE that you can only get by losing out on core feats then you're going to force feats to be less important and also make multi-classes that don't get a PrE resentful or more likely to pick that multi-class to get hold of the PrE, which brings me to problem #2

2. If you want to please people with this idea you have to plan for every eventuality, there has to be a good variety or you will kill interesting or flavour builds, people will only build towards getting their sweet-ass PrEs.

One of the beauties of DDO's system is the level of flexibility, building your toon specifically around a PrE can be kind of a bad idea (and a great way to gimp yourself when they change the PrE)

Besides this, many PrEs in the game are already ones you'd need to take a combination of classes to get, A ranger can't just become an arcane archer without levels in an arcane class.

Mystic Theurge is a particularly bad idea (and probably a monster to implement) as it gives you spells from both schools of magic, it's perhaps /too/ overpowered for DDO, it's probably far simpler to give cleric a PrE that gives them access to some arcane spells or a wizard access to some divine spells instead...alternatively be a half elf of either and select the other as your dilettante ;p

I can say that I LIKE the idea of multi-class based PrEs (as that's what the majority of prestige classes are anyhow), I just can't see how they could be implemented into DDO without being awful.

But.... but Mystic Theurge is the one I want most :( Well that and Swordmage It's not that broken. I mad a Wiz/Clr yesterday and it seems interesting but not any near broken as say, a Warforged Wizard.

Chrasch
06-20-2011, 10:56 AM
I like the concept, it has been brought up before. If it does happen it likely will be after all the pure class PrEs are finished.

Druid however is a Class not a PrC and so would not be included. Not if Turbine wanted to avoid a group of angry nerds rampaging all over them.


Other potential additions

Eldritch Knight (Fighter/Wizard)
Arcane Trickster (Rogue/Wizard)
Ultimate Magus (Sorcerer/Wizard)
Rage Mage (Barbarian/Wizard)


Aesop

Those are AWESOME! Except I think the Eldritch Knight would be Fighter/Sorcerer since Swordmage is really close to Fighter/Wizard.

BOgre
06-20-2011, 01:49 PM
2. If you want to please people with this idea you have to plan for every eventuality, there has to be a good variety or you will kill interesting or flavour builds, people will only build towards getting their sweet-ass PrEs.

I would tend to disagree with that. As it is, most players grav towards established builds, with flavor builds being vastly inferior and non-viable. A 10/10 split would have little chance of survival nearing end-game. ADDing value to 10/10 splits or 7/6/7's or whatever, would make flavor builds MORE attractive, I'd think.

andbr22
06-20-2011, 04:17 PM
I would see this more like special Enchantments for certain multiclassses.

Barbarian and divine caster -> divine casting while raged (it is accualy more undertable than arcane casting while raged).
Barbarian and Wild Mage -> arcane casting while raged.
12 Fighter Kensai + Monk Adept of Element (lv 7) -> weapon of choise is considerated as Ki-Weapon
Monk and Wizard (PM) -> Bonusses to unarmed fighting.

Probably you could think of more.

Chrasch
06-20-2011, 06:32 PM
I would tend to disagree with that. As it is, most players grav towards established builds, with flavor builds being vastly inferior and non-viable. A 10/10 split would have little chance of survival nearing end-game. ADDing value to 10/10 splits or 7/6/7's or whatever, would make flavor builds MORE attractive, I'd think.

Thank you. This is the exact reason i want this. The character I'm currently using is half cleric and half wizard.

bkasavan
06-20-2011, 07:00 PM
, A ranger can't just become an arcane archer without levels in an arcane class.


Just one thing, a ranger can, because he does get the SP's, a Ranger AA does not need to multiclass.

Bodic
06-20-2011, 07:20 PM
5 levels in Ranger + 5 levels in Cleric = Druid

Uhm this is so not right for so many reasons.

First NGE would be replaced my DDO.
Those faithful 5 year customers would ragequit and never comeback.
I am thinking pure class/race PrE's, before multiclass.
I could go on, but I am sure its been covered.

I will say nice try, but no gas money.

Chrasch
06-20-2011, 07:44 PM
Uhm this is so not right for so many reasons.

First NGE would be replaced my DDO.
Those faithful 5 year customers would ragequit and never comeback.
I am thinking pure class/race PrE's, before multiclass.
I could go on, but I am sure its been covered.

I will say nice try, but no gas money.

There are already a bunch of those. This game encourages originality but only up until a certain point. Ask anyone what they think of a 10/10 split and they'll say you're stupid. Why? It's my character. I'll do what i want with it. Why shouldn't i get a nifty boost just because i don't like pure leveling?

Doomcrew
06-20-2011, 08:08 PM
There are already a bunch of those. This game encourages originality but only up until a certain point. Ask anyone what they think of a 10/10 split and they'll say you're stupid. Why? It's my character. I'll do what i want with it. Why shouldn't i get a nifty boost just because i don't like pure leveling?

Devil's Advocate, why should you get a "boost" for combining two classes
with little synergy?

If one chooses to make a flavour build,they may do so. But the game shouldn't
be expected to make one's build more viable.

Multi-classing can be fun, but poor choices may leave one to re-rolling or
re-incarnating in the higher levels as the game and other players pass them
by.

Just my thoughts.

Grenada
06-20-2011, 10:23 PM
Can't resist adding to list...:
Monk sorcerer: Dragon disciple (must have a certain tier of the stance that matches your savant choice; this determines the dragon type(s) available to you)
Rogue sorcerer: Spell thief (mechanics only), Renamed assassin from DM guide v3.5 (assassin only, adds some espionage style SLAs)
Ranger sorcerer: Horizon walker
Fighter Pally: Greyguard (SD only, give some more boosts to the PrE, but keep the feel of the PrC) or Samurai (kensai)
Ranger rogue: scout (Thief Acrobat only)

And finally:
Barbarian monk: SUPER SEIYAN!!!

Lycurgus
06-20-2011, 10:35 PM
Don't like this idea at all, although it sounds "fun" at face value.

Pre for Kensai/Tempest: you win. No, really, you win, the game is broken now, g'bye.

Chrasch
06-20-2011, 10:41 PM
Can't resist adding to list...:
Monk sorcerer: Dragon disciple (must have a certain tier of the stance that matches your savant choice; this determines the dragon type(s) available to you)
Rogue sorcerer: Spell thief (mechanics only), Renamed assassin from DM guide v3.5 (assassin only, adds some espionage style SLAs)
Ranger sorcerer: Horizon walker
Fighter Pally: Greyguard (SD only, give some more boosts to the PrE, but keep the feel of the PrC) or Samurai (kensai)
Ranger rogue: scout (Thief Acrobat only)

And finally:
Barbarian monk: SUPER SEIYAN!!!

Are those all actual classes? Because some of them sound righteous. Super Saiyan would be a little(A LOT) broken don't ya think? XD

phum
06-20-2011, 10:48 PM
Devil's Advocate, why should you get a "boost" for combining two classes
with little synergy?

If one chooses to make a flavour build,they may do so. But the game shouldn't
be expected to make one's build more viable.

Multi-classing can be fun, but poor choices may leave one to re-rolling or
re-incarnating in the higher levels as the game and other players pass them
by.

Just my thoughts.

I get your point, but the goal of the game is to have fun is it not? If multiclassing wasn't an essential part of d&d i would maybe partly agree with you, but I'm absolutely sure there are many who find it very much fun.

As you say, currently not properly planned multiclassing can be disastrous. Giving some viability to at least few of the currently unpractical builds would not break the game would it? It would make the people playing them keep playing a bit longer. Every reroll is a high chance for rq and i doubt turbine likes those:)

Actually I'd guess more of the wildest mc builds would gravitate towards mc enhancements and the amount of useless ones would thus decrease. This is pure speculation tho and depends largely on balance issues on how they would be implemented.

Doomcrew
06-20-2011, 10:59 PM
I get your point, but the goal of the game is to have fun is it not? If multiclassing wasn't an essential part of d&d i would maybe partly agree with you, but I'm absolutely sure there are many who find it very much fun.

As you say, currently not properly planned multiclassing can be disastrous. Giving some viability to at least few of the currently unpractical builds would not break the game would it? It would make the people playing them keep playing a bit longer. Every reroll is a high chance for rq and i doubt turbine likes those:)

Actually I'd guess more of the wildest mc builds would gravitate towards mc enhancements and the amount of useless ones would thus decrease. This is pure speculation tho and depends largely on balance issues on how they would be implemented.

In almost 5 years of playing, I've yet to cap a "pure" class. I love MC'ing and find it very
rewarding, but there comes a time when the impractical builds lose their lustre and are no
longer fun to play.

If you run in a tight guild or with friends a lot, you will be able to level the flavour builds. As
time goes on, pugging those builds into Raids or even regular quests will become more of an
issue.

This isn't about saying don't do things "your" way so much as this is what to expect.

Cheers, have fun.

Grenada
06-20-2011, 11:11 PM
Are those all actual classes? Because some of them sound righteous. Super Saiyan would be a little(A LOT) broken don't ya think? XD

They are all actual prestige classes or supplementary classes (from books such as complete adventurer and complete scoundrel, both v3.5 books), except the super saiyan one (but really, its not OP at all... ;) )

Also a few prestige classes from the DM guide 3.5

Edit: samurai the way I was thinking I don't think exists, though there are guide on how to change the pally class into a samurai for oriental campaigns (no source to tell your where to look, sorry)

Chrasch
06-20-2011, 11:18 PM
They are all actual prestige classes or supplementary classes (from books such as complete adventurer and complete scoundrel, both v3.5 books), except the super saiyan one (but really, its not OP at all... ;) )

Also a few prestige classes from the DM guide 3.5

Edit: samurai the way I was thinking I don't think exists, though there are guide on how to change the pally class into a samurai for oriental campaigns (no source to tell your where to look, sorry)

I'm glad to see that there is someone who sees this from my exact point of view. They just can't do some classes as starters. Druid for example has been said to be far too OP for DDO. So it would make sense that you could become a Druid when getting to Level 10 with Ranger and Cleric(I picked Cleric because I read that Druids use Divine element magick. That way you don't just slaughter the game early on.

Grenada
06-20-2011, 11:25 PM
I'm glad to see that there is someone who sees this from my exact point of view. They just can't do some classes as starters. Druid for example has been said to be far too OP for DDO. So it would make sense that you could become a Druid when getting to Level 10 with Ranger and Cleric(I picked Cleric because I read that Druids use Divine element magick. That way you don't just slaughter the game early on.

Druids are an original class, I want them to be a class, not a PrE. (honestly, the only reason they seem OP is because I don't think people realize that they are NOT healers, they are wizards that use the divine power of nature rather than arcane tomes to accomplish their goals)
(shapeshifting was accomplished in pnp with a variety of different spells, many of them available to arcane casters as well)

So I agree with your idea, but not regarding Druids

protokon
06-20-2011, 11:47 PM
Eldritch knight would be sweet. Pre's requiring class splits would be really cool to see implemented.

Chrasch
06-21-2011, 01:48 AM
Eldritch knight would be sweet. Pre's requiring class splits would be really cool to see implemented.

I wonder who would win between a Swordmage and Eldritch Knight?

phum
06-21-2011, 02:02 AM
In almost 5 years of playing, I've yet to cap a "pure" class. I love MC'ing and find it very
rewarding, but there comes a time when the impractical builds lose their lustre and are no
longer fun to play.

If you run in a tight guild or with friends a lot, you will be able to level the flavour builds. As
time goes on, pugging those builds into Raids or even regular quests will become more of an
issue.

This isn't about saying don't do things "your" way so much as this is what to expect.

Cheers, have fun.

:D I agree completely that other peoples conceptions/assumptions are very important for multiclasses. Guess I misinterpreted you to some extent (sorry, if I was a bit offensive about it^^), but I still kinda hope/think that the situation could improve, if more of those builds were more viable. Of course I realize it's very optimistic to think that way:)

Maxson
06-21-2011, 03:39 AM
Just one thing, a ranger can, because he does get the SP's, a Ranger AA does not need to multiclass.

I meant traditionally, in DnD to be an arcane archer you need to be able to cast arcane spells. Therefore, what I'm saying is that Prestige Classes in DnD which are usually the fare of the multiclasser are already implemented as bonuses to single classes in DDO...I'm pretty surprised we aren't already seeing a Fighter prestige "Eldritch Knight" which gives them some spell-like abilities such as a few casts of haste a day.


I would tend to disagree with that. As it is, most players grav towards established builds, with flavor builds being vastly inferior and non-viable. A 10/10 split would have little chance of survival nearing end-game. ADDing value to 10/10 splits or 7/6/7's or whatever, would make flavor builds MORE attractive, I'd think.

Hrm, I concede that you have a point there, but I still think that the only way to make it viable is to vastly overpower the PrE (making people very likely to pick it, I mean, arcane AND divine spellcasting in 1 toon?), and that it would take a whole lot of fudging to make it work in the engine (turbine seems unable at times to make things work, mystic theurge sounds like a nightmare).

On mystic theurge, a myistic theurge develops it's spells as if a member of both it's spellcasting classes, if you only get 3 "levels" of a Prestige Enhancement how does it work? Does Mystic Theurge I make a 5 wiz/5 cleric suddenly have the spell list of a 10 wiz/10 cleric? Do you have to maintain even levels of the two to get Mystic Theurge II? I honestly think the only way it might even remotely happen is if allowing a pure class toon to have some spell like abilities from the other class.

While DDO isn't cvery focused on balance, I can't see allowing 1 toon access to Arcane and divine in full being very fair, Favored Souls are already overpowered, and a level 20 sorc is also very overpowered, why play anything else when you can drop a firewall and then just spam heal yourself, with stoneskin and haste on in the middle?

edit: part of the problem with the above is that there's no incentive to BE a pure cleric in DDO, they're divine spellcasters, end of story, it's all about the spells, and never about the class feats for a cleric, partially because a number of them are missing from the game. The drawback of the theurge is that it doesn't get class feats, such as the Wizard's bonus metamagic feats, implemented in DDO the only drawback would be LESS wizard metamagic feats. The only drawback from the cleric side of things is um....um....None, because turn undead is useless eventually anyhow. I suppose you can't be a radiant servant, for all the good it does in places like the shroud where you can't hug the group anyhow.

edit again: multiclasses can already have 2 different PrEs, such as the fighter/wizard kensai/pale masters I see quite commonly, or the deepwood sniper/mechanics that're sadly rarer because ranged weapons are soooo broken.

Razcar
06-21-2011, 05:26 AM
I would instead prefer if they just disconnected the PrE's from the classes.
Keep the PrE's on their levels (maybe ease up a little on the requirements for some) but do not make it mandatory to have 6, 12 or 18 levels in a certain class to take them, outside of the class Enhancements required.

For example, Frenzied Berserker I. Keep the requirements at Power Attack, Cleave Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I, Barbarian Damage Boost II, but scrap Barbarian 6 and make it BAB 6 instead.

Then you could qualify for FB 1 as a 4 Barbarian 2 Fighter, or 4 Barb 3 Bard, for example.

Or make a Tempest II fighter, if you are willing to spend the feats. Or a Kensai II barbarian if you spend the feats needed and take 4 levels of fighter for Fighter Attack Boost II. Maybe a Kensai 1 Fighter 4 Sorc 16.

This would open up the system and make for a lots of fun combinations. Builders would have a field day. It would also open up the currently locked down 6 - 12 - 18 required levels in certain classes we see so much now. And pure classes already have their powerful capstones to makes them viable.

Maxson
06-21-2011, 05:29 AM
I would instead prefer if they just disconnected the PrE's from the classes.
Keep the PrE's on their levels (maybe ease up a little on the requirements for some) but do not make it mandatory to have 6, 12 or 18 levels in a certain class to take them, outside of the class Enhancements required.

For example, Frenzied Berserker I. Keep the requirements at Power Attack, Cleave Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I, Barbarian Damage Boost II, but scrap Barbarian 6 and make it BAB 6 instead.

Then you could qualify for FB 1 as a 4 Barbarian 2 Fighter, or 4 Barb 3 Bard, for example.

Or make a Tempest II fighter, if you are willing to spend the feats. Or a Kensai II barbarian if you spend the feats needed and take 4 levels of fighter for Fighter Attack Boost II. Maybe a Kensai 1 Fighter 4 Sorc 16.

This would open up the system and make for a lots of fun combinations. Builders would have a field day. It would also open up the currently locked down 6 - 12 - 18 required levels in certain classes we see so much now. And pure classes already have their powerful capstones to makes them viable.

Probably the best suggestion on the idea so far to be honest, prestige enhancements could quite easily just be implemented as things you can take if you just meet the requirements or the prestige class they're based on in some way, I still wouldn't put mystic theurge in though.

LoveNeverFails
06-21-2011, 05:36 AM
There are already a bunch of those. This game encourages originality but only up until a certain point. Ask anyone what they think of a 10/10 split and they'll say you're stupid. Why? It's my character. I'll do what i want with it. Why shouldn't i get a nifty boost just because i don't like pure leveling?

Not necessarily true. A 10/10 split cleric/wiz? That is stupid. A 10/10 split of...well...anything else with a bit more synergy then that, not so much. I don't think the devs should go out of their way to make people who make poor multiclassing decisions viable endgame. You wannt split two casting classes like that? go ahead. Good luck after level 5.

Antheal
06-21-2011, 05:57 AM
They should just have the racial prestiges finished to tier 3 for each, first. They can take the place of multiclass prestiges for now.

phum
06-21-2011, 06:38 AM
I would instead prefer if they just disconnected the PrE's from the classes.
Keep the PrE's on their levels (maybe ease up a little on the requirements for some) but do not make it mandatory to have 6, 12 or 18 levels in a certain class to take them, outside of the class Enhancements required.

For example, Frenzied Berserker I. Keep the requirements at Power Attack, Cleave Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I, Barbarian Damage Boost II, but scrap Barbarian 6 and make it BAB 6 instead.

Then you could qualify for FB 1 as a 4 Barbarian 2 Fighter, or 4 Barb 3 Bard, for example.

Or make a Tempest II fighter, if you are willing to spend the feats. Or a Kensai II barbarian if you spend the feats needed and take 4 levels of fighter for Fighter Attack Boost II. Maybe a Kensai 1 Fighter 4 Sorc 16.

This would open up the system and make for a lots of fun combinations. Builders would have a field day. It would also open up the currently locked down 6 - 12 - 18 required levels in certain classes we see so much now. And pure classes already have their powerful capstones to makes them viable.

This is a nice idea. Reasonably easy to implement and very effective. Some prestiges might need some tweaking, but this would definitely go a long way:D Hope devs get a word of these ideas:)

FuzzyDuck81
06-21-2011, 07:10 AM
There are already a few PrEs that have synergy with other classes eg.
pale master & monk - extra bonuses from undead form to unarmed attacks
deepwood sniper & rogue - the extended sneak attack range can be handy for mechanics
kensai & monk - extra ki generation from kensai, though weapon choice is limited - on a tangent, surely a kensai, the master of a specific weapon, could enter the monk "combat trance" with whichever was their chosen weapon? i'd like to see any weapon for which a kensai is focussed become a ki weapon though can imagine the influx would 90% be for khopesh kensai with 2 level splash for evasion *sigh*
Ok, they may not all be amazing, but there ARE some there.


I would instead prefer if they just disconnected the PrE's from the classes.
Keep the PrE's on their levels (maybe ease up a little on the requirements for some) but do not make it mandatory to have 6, 12 or 18 levels in a certain class to take them, outside of the class Enhancements required.

For example, Frenzied Berserker I. Keep the requirements at Power Attack, Cleave Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I, Barbarian Damage Boost II, but scrap Barbarian 6 and make it BAB 6 instead.

Then you could qualify for FB 1 as a 4 Barbarian 2 Fighter, or 4 Barb 3 Bard, for example.

Or make a Tempest II fighter, if you are willing to spend the feats. Or a Kensai II barbarian if you spend the feats needed and take 4 levels of fighter for Fighter Attack Boost II. Maybe a Kensai 1 Fighter 4 Sorc 16.

This would open up the system and make for a lots of fun combinations. Builders would have a field day. It would also open up the currently locked down 6 - 12 - 18 required levels in certain classes we see so much now. And pure classes already have their powerful capstones to makes them viable.

This suggestion i like - a viable sword mage would be much more possible through this without relying on gear as much - a few tiers of archmage & 1 or maybe 2 tiers of kensai & careful feat/enhancement choices... warforged fighter/wizards with a decent combination of melee dps & spell capabilities for some offense or crowd control in addition to self-healing, self-displacing etc. would be awesome & a lot of fun.

Gkar
06-21-2011, 07:18 AM
Becomes available at level 10 and grants special bonuses related to the classes

5 levels in Cleric + 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer = Mystic Theurge
5 levels in Ranger + 5 levels in Cleric = Druid
5 levels in Fighter + 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer = Swordmage

I'm sure there are others but i can't think of them right now. Also there could be a much more powerful version available at level 20 for those that are 10 and 10.

No, just no. Especially your Druid option.

Ungood
06-21-2011, 07:48 AM
While the idea of a, special prestige, for multi-class builds is a good idea, and one I would support, I believe that it should work within the existing prestige line as a boon to the later level player to accommodate the loss of tier III Prestige, and work within the layout and design of the current prestige system not outside of it. So it would a smooth addition, once implemented to seem as it it always belonged there.

When you consider that a 6/6 split has two prestige lines open to them, and they can have both, that can make them very, very, powerful at the mid game but because they do not have the tier II and won't get the Tier III at all, that can hamper them a bit (depending on build of course)

With that noted, this is my suggestion to make the Special Prestige Line work and allow players versatility and fun to their game while keeping with the premise of the system as it is already.

Mystic Theurge: Requires 1 of: Radiant Servant I, Angel of Vengeance I, AND one of: Archmage I, Palemaster I, Earth Savant I, Fire Savant I, Air Savant I, Water Savant I.

That way, a mix of Arcane or Divine, can make this Special Build, without needing to stick to one class or some specific level requirement. Also have it so that the Theurge just helps their existing Prestigious, to give a minor accommodation for not having a Tier II Prestige.

With Mystic Theurge II open to any 18th level Character, Requiring: Mystic Theurge I (and maybe some other enchantments, like Concentration III or something). You can only have one special prestige enhancement at any time.

Swordmage I: Requires One of: Frenzied Berserker I, Kensei I, Knight of the Chalice I, Hunter of the Dead I, Ninja Spy I, AND one of: Archmage I, Palemaster I, Earth Savant I, Fire Savant I

This way, players can have diversity and fun in the process. Without needing to worry if they just pigeon holed themselves into something.

But such is just my humble idea.

Talias006
06-21-2011, 08:06 AM
Becomes available at level 10 and grants special bonuses related to the classes

5 levels in Cleric + 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer = Mystic Theurge
5 levels in Ranger + 5 levels in Cleric = Druid
5 levels in Fighter + 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer = Swordmage

I'm sure there are others but i can't think of them right now. Also there could be a much more powerful version available at level 20 for those that are 10 and 10.

Absolutely not on your version of Druid. It's a base class with full progression to 20, not a Prestige with progression to 3, 5, or 10.


and True necromancer - wizzy/cleric

^ This
Although, I'd amend it with Ungood's idea of being Palemaster I and 6 levels of non-good aligned Cleric, since Clerics currently only get 1 PrE option. And having an aura that countermands in the least and is painfully detrimental in the worst while in undead form just doesn't make sense. Might be a reason for Dev's to create a PrE that focuses on the beneficial undead side of things for clerics.


Are those all actual classes? Because some of them sound righteous. Super Saiyan would be a little(A LOT) broken don't ya think? XD

Look at the alignment requirements for Barbarians and Monks... ;) :D


While the idea of a, special prestige, for multi-class builds is a good idea, and one I would support, I believe that it should work within the existing prestige line as a boon to the later level player to accommodate the loss of tier III Prestige, and work within the layout and design of the current prestige system not outside of it. So it would a smooth addition, once implemented to seem as it it always belonged there.

When you consider that a 6/6 split has two prestige lines open to them, and they can have both, that can make them very, very, powerful at the mid game but because they do not have the tier II and won't get the Tier III at all, that can hamper them a bit (depending on build of course)

With that noted, this is my suggestion to make the Special Prestige Line work and allow players versatility and fun to their game while keeping with the premise of the system as it is already.

Mystic Theurge: Requires 1 of: Radiant Servant I, Angel of Vengeance I, AND one of: Archmage I, Palemaster I, Earth Savant I, Fire Savant I, Air Savant I, Water Savant I.

That way, a mix of Arcane or Divine, can make this Special Build, without needing to stick to one class or some specific level requirement. Also have it so that the Theurge just helps their existing Prestigious, to give a minor accommodation for not having a Tier II Prestige.

With Mystic Theurge II open to any 18th level Character, Requiring: Mystic Theurge I (and maybe some other enchantments, like Concentration III or something). You can only have one special prestige enhancement at any time.

Swordmage I: Requires One of: Frenzied Berserker I, Kensei I, Knight of the Chalice I, Hunter of the Dead I, Ninja Spy I, AND one of: Archmage I, Palemaster I, Earth Savant I, Fire Savant I

This way, players can have diversity and fun in the process. Without needing to worry if they just pigeon holed themselves into something.

But such is just my humble idea.

Humble or not, this is very good. Sorry, but it is. :D

Scraap
06-21-2011, 08:27 AM
While the idea of a, special prestige, for multi-class builds is a good idea, and one I would support, I believe that it should work within the existing prestige line as a boon to the later level player to accommodate the loss of tier III Prestige, and work within the layout and design of the current prestige system not outside of it. So it would a smooth addition, once implemented to seem as it it always belonged there.

When you consider that a 6/6 split has two prestige lines open to them, and they can have both, that can make them very, very, powerful at the mid game but because they do not have the tier II and won't get the Tier III at all, that can hamper them a bit (depending on build of course)

With that noted, this is my suggestion to make the Special Prestige Line work and allow players versatility and fun to their game while keeping with the premise of the system as it is already.

Mystic Theurge: Requires 1 of: Radiant Servant I, Angel of Vengeance I, AND one of: Archmage I, Palemaster I, Earth Savant I, Fire Savant I, Air Savant I, Water Savant I.

That way, a mix of Arcane or Divine, can make this Special Build, without needing to stick to one class or some specific level requirement. Also have it so that the Theurge just helps their existing Prestigious, to give a minor accommodation for not having a Tier II Prestige.

With Mystic Theurge II open to any 18th level Character, Requiring: Mystic Theurge I (and maybe some other enchantments, like Concentration III or something). You can only have one special prestige enhancement at any time.

Swordmage I: Requires One of: Frenzied Berserker I, Kensei I, Knight of the Chalice I, Hunter of the Dead I, Ninja Spy I, AND one of: Archmage I, Palemaster I, Earth Savant I, Fire Savant I

This way, players can have diversity and fun in the process. Without needing to worry if they just pigeon holed themselves into something.

But such is just my humble idea.

Always liked that one, though I'd point out that theoretically, That could end in a tier 1/tier2/multi 1. So they'd likely want to ensure that those close the gap between a tier 3 and a tier 1 in terms of power sacrificed, so effectively tier2. Not that I'm even against tier1/tier1/tier1/multi/multi. But that one strikes me as very easy to break in terms of balancing vs the former example, so the special lockout seems a good compromise.

Either that, or just bump the class level requirements on down to 5s instead of 6s, or expand the cap to 24, but those have their own problems.

Cyr
06-21-2011, 09:02 AM
Pros:

Buffs the weak. Really no arguing that the splits the op listed are good ones in DDO right now.

Cons:

Further entrenches builds into specific class breakdowns if the PrE's are good.
If the PrE's are not very good creates another noob trap in game encouraging people to build gimped toons.
Druids not being a full class would equal some seriously angry players.

phum
06-21-2011, 09:36 AM
Pros:

Buffs the weak. Really no arguing that the splits the op listed are good ones in DDO right now.

Cons:

Further entrenches builds into specific class breakdowns if the PrE's are good.
If the PrE's are not very good creates another noob trap in game encouraging people to build gimped toons.
Druids not being a full class would equal some seriously angry players.

Isn't the by far most common specific class breakdown currently pure class? All classes are pretty well represented tho, at least to my knowledge^^ If enough mc enhancements are added with proper consideration on balance issues, I doubt it would somehow significantly decrease viability of the pures. They still get caps and hopefully all eventually preIIIs.

As for the newbie trap or OP, you are right. Of course. IF the balance issue is not addressed properly. By Turbine. However, the possibility of a screw up and later fixes upon fixes doesn't bother at least me:) Depending on the extent of the change, that possibility could be quite small, but here I go being too optimistic again:D It's just fun to get a bit excited about a nice suggestion every once in awhile^^

Phidius
06-21-2011, 10:35 AM
...
1. It railroads builders; When building a multiclass toon, not just the enhancements are important but the core abilities of the classes, if you implement some super powered PrE that you can only get by losing out on core feats then you're going to force feats to be less important and also make multi-classes that don't get a PrE resentful or more likely to pick that multi-class to get hold of the PrE, which brings me to problem #2

2. If you want to please people with this idea you have to plan for every eventuality, there has to be a good variety or you will kill interesting or flavour builds, people will only build towards getting their sweet-ass PrEs.

One of the beauties of DDO's system is the level of flexibility, building your toon specifically around a PrE can be kind of a bad idea (and a great way to gimp yourself when they change the PrE)
...

This.


One thing I've always wished was that the Enhancements were less tied to Classes.

If PrEs weren't tied to the 6/12/18 of classes and instead were tied to Feats Skills and Features then there could be more variety of builds.

...

And this.


I would instead prefer if they just disconnected the PrE's from the classes.
Keep the PrE's on their levels (maybe ease up a little on the requirements for some) but do not make it mandatory to have 6, 12 or 18 levels in a certain class to take them, outside of the class Enhancements required.

For example, Frenzied Berserker I. Keep the requirements at Power Attack, Cleave Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I, Barbarian Damage Boost II, but scrap Barbarian 6 and make it BAB 6 instead.

Then you could qualify for FB 1 as a 4 Barbarian 2 Fighter, or 4 Barb 3 Bard, for example.

Or make a Tempest II fighter, if you are willing to spend the feats. Or a Kensai II barbarian if you spend the feats needed and take 4 levels of fighter for Fighter Attack Boost II. Maybe a Kensai 1 Fighter 4 Sorc 16.

This would open up the system and make for a lots of fun combinations. Builders would have a field day. It would also open up the currently locked down 6 - 12 - 18 required levels in certain classes we see so much now. And pure classes already have their powerful capstones to makes them viable.

Not sure the class-specific enhancements should be required either. How about basing it on character features like Abilities, BaB, feats, and skills alone? This could make some of the Lost Skills worth investing in again...

At any rate, This too.


Pros:

Buffs the weak. Really no arguing that the splits the op listed are good ones in DDO right now.

Cons:

Further entrenches builds into specific class breakdowns if the PrE's are good.
If the PrE's are not very good creates another noob trap in game encouraging people to build gimped toons.
Druids not being a full class would equal some seriously angry players.

This.

I'm holding out hope that the Battlepriest PrE will be fun, as I've given up on the wizard PrE's for Gemstone.

shores11
06-21-2011, 10:36 AM
Becomes available at level 10 and grants special bonuses related to the classes

5 levels in Cleric + 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer = Mystic Theurge
5 levels in Ranger + 5 levels in Cleric = Druid
5 levels in Fighter + 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer = Swordmage

I'm sure there are others but i can't think of them right now. Also there could be a much more powerful version available at level 20 for those that are 10 and 10.

/not signed

QuantumFX
06-21-2011, 10:51 AM
For all you “Clonks” out there: Sacred Fist

Ungood
06-21-2011, 11:15 AM
Always liked that one, though I'd point out that theoretically, That could end in a tier 1/tier2/multi 1. So they'd likely want to ensure that those close the gap between a tier 3 and a tier 1 in terms of power sacrificed, so effectively tier2. Not that I'm even against tier1/tier1/tier1/multi/multi. But that one strikes me as very easy to break in terms of balancing vs the former example, so the special lockout seems a good compromise.

I see what you are saying, but the idea is that you can only have one special prestige, so if you did a Tier I, Tier I, Tier I, you would still only be allowed to do a single Multi I & II ,

Like for example:

Lets say:

Battlepriest: requires One of: Frenzied Berserer I, Knesei I, HotD I, Knight of the Chalace I, Ninja Spy I, Assassin I, Acrobat I, and One of: Radiant Servant I, Angel of Vengeance I

A Cleric/Fighter/Wizard:, Radiant Servant I/Knesei I/Archmage I would only be able to be: BattlePriest OR Mystic Theurge not both, but could take either of them to say, something like Tier II, to compensate not having a Tier III and No Capstone.

Not that Tier II would be amazing, it would really just a be slight augment beyond their existing prestige augments. If designed, I would wager it would put in with the intent to work with a Tier II and Tier I Mix, as opposed to three Tier I mixes, you know what I mean?

Grenada
06-21-2011, 11:26 AM
Just realized something.
Going with Ungood's suggestion, and remembering that we can have a racial PrE + one PrE in each class we have, it is possible to have 5 PrE's (ignoring AP costs)!

Class 1 PrE tier I
Class 2 PrE tier I
Class 3 PrE tier I
Racial PrE
Multiclass PrE tier I

This could get interesting...

Chrasch
06-23-2011, 11:57 PM
Absolutely not on your version of Druid. It's a base class with full progression to 20, not a Prestige with progression to 3, 5, or 10.



^ This
Although, I'd amend it with Ungood's idea of being Palemaster I and 6 levels of non-good aligned Cleric, since Clerics currently only get 1 PrE option. And having an aura that countermands in the least and is painfully detrimental in the worst while in undead form just doesn't make sense. Might be a reason for Dev's to create a PrE that focuses on the beneficial undead side of things for clerics.



Look at the alignment requirements for Barbarians and Monks... ;) :D



Humble or not, this is very good. Sorry, but it is. :D

Wow........ you put a lot of thought into that one. That's very interesting and I do like it. Also the only reason I suggested Druid as the same as Mystic Theurge is because if they haven't implemented it as a base class, do you really think they ever will?

Riablo
06-24-2011, 12:25 AM
This is a really great thread. I’ve thought of a great prestige enhancement that could be added in here, Black Guard (for those who don’t know, it’s an evil paladin/death knight type class). Given the recent popularity with Palemaster Fighter multi-classes, this PrE would fit into DDO nicely.

I reckon the requirements would be something like:

Requires: Palemaster 1 AND one of: Knight of the Chalice, Hunter of the Dead, Defender of Siberys.
Alignment Restriction: May not be good

Ngha
06-24-2011, 12:43 AM
This needs to happen.

3/3 First rank

6/6 Second

9/9 Third

Why: Because people who actually like D&D like to multiclass, its part of the game.

Why not: will take a while, even when you do put some in, people will ask for more.

How to: Multiclass PrEs cost TP or are VIP only. There are already classes that are P2P, this probably won't be such a big deal, and you'll get paid for your work.

Suggestions:

Arcane/Divine split PrE

Melee/Divine split PrE

Melee/Arcane split PrE

Chaotic Class split PrE (Both Classes or Non-Lawful only)

Lawful Class Split PrE (Both classes are Lawful only)

Its only 5 more PrEs

Chrasch
06-24-2011, 01:27 PM
This needs to happen.

3/3 First rank

6/6 Second

9/9 Third

Why: Because people who actually like D&D like to multiclass, its part of the game.

Why not: will take a while, even when you do put some in, people will ask for more.

How to: Multiclass PrEs cost TP or are VIP only. There are already classes that are P2P, this probably won't be such a big deal, and you'll get paid for your work.

Suggestions:

Arcane/Divine split PrE

Melee/Divine split PrE

Melee/Arcane split PrE

Chaotic Class split PrE (Both Classes or Non-Lawful only)

Lawful Class Split PrE (Both classes are Lawful only)

Its only 5 more PrEs

Really great idea but one question. Where would Favored SOul fit into that?

Chrasch
06-28-2011, 02:37 PM
Ninja = Monk5/Rogue/5

wonkey
06-28-2011, 02:57 PM
I have to admit, I only skimmed the thread so far, but I feel that none of this is needed ASSUMING that racial PRE development gets advanced at some point.

I think that doing specific cross-class PREs just pigeonholes people, and puts pressure on multi-classes to go for those specific PREs, rather than mixing it up, as it is now. Some of the other suggestions are interesting, but, again, I don't think any of this is required for the following reason.

Once racial PREs get done, EVERY character, no matter what their split, will have access to a full, 3 tier, PRE. This means that they'll have that 3rd tier oomph, and then can advance from there in a plethora of ways, depending on their choice of build investment.

They can go pure, and get two 3rd tier PREs, and a capstone.
Or 18/2 for two 3rd tier PREs and a splash.
Or 12/6/2 for a 3rd tier, a 2nd tier, and a first tier of complementary PREs, plus a splash of something else.
Or even 7/7/6 or 8/6/6 for a 4 PRE uber-mutt, with a full 3rd tier, and 3 single tiers, assuming they allow this.

Or other combinations, to take advantage of certain level advantages.

With racial PREs, multi-classers will still get 3rd tier power, and have all the options that they could want, without adding new things to the game over what is already officially planned.
I think builders will have more than enough on their plate with just this.

Trillea
06-28-2011, 03:04 PM
Arcane Trickster (Rogue/Wizard)
Ultimate Magus (Sorcerer/Wizard)


These 2 additions would make me so friggin happy..

Arcane trickster is my favorite prestige class EVER. Ultimate magus however, I am not sure how best to implement it. You kind of already have this, as the SP gain from one class translates directly to extra SP needed for metamagics for the other.

Failedlegend
06-28-2011, 05:26 PM
How to: Multiclass PrEs cost TP or are VIP only. There are already classes that are P2P, this probably won't be such a big deal, and you'll get paid for your work.


Nothing should EVER be VIP only beyond some minor bonuses (IE. can enter on elite) and there's no reason to make PrEs non F2P (Note: I'm Premium and own all the quests/races except the newest ones from U11)

Ngha
06-28-2011, 05:30 PM
Nothing should EVER be VIP only beyond some minor bonuses (IE. can enter on elite) and there's no reason to make PrEs non F2P (Note: I'm Premium and own all the quests/races except the newest ones from U11)

By that rationale FvS, Monk, Half-Humans, Etc. Should not be P2P either.

I'm having a hard time figuring out how you expect turbine to make money to pay the guys who make this game bigger and better?

I mean unless you advocate them making the entire game P2P like WoW.

*EDIT* Multiclass PrEs would simply be like adding new classes to the game, and most likely Very strong. Therefore P2P is not a bad idea, seeing as that is what they do with all the new cool classes anyways.

Uska
06-28-2011, 05:53 PM
Thatsa huge no to number 2 druid is a main class not some silly hodgepodge of classes I rather have no druid over what you propose hopeully we will get druid someday but the real class only

Failedlegend
06-28-2011, 06:24 PM
By that rationale FvS, Monk, Half-Humans, Etc. Should not be P2P either.

I'm having a hard time figuring out how you expect turbine to make money to pay the guys who make this game bigger and better?

I mean unless you advocate them making the entire game P2P like WoW.

*EDIT* Multiclass PrEs would simply be like adding new classes to the game, and most likely Very strong. Therefore P2P is not a bad idea, seeing as that is what they do with all the new cool classes anyways.

P2P YES or NO

Classes= YES
Races = YES
Adventures = YES
Convenience/Cosmetic Stuff = YES (although being rare drops in game would make sense)
Enhancements = NO
Feats = NO
Skills = NO
Leveling = NO

Any of the above ever granted to VIPs ONLY (IOW cannot buy) = NEVER

Battlehawke
06-28-2011, 06:39 PM
I like the Idea, but maybe treat it as a prestige line so that you can only take one route. Also, maybe you can only take it at level 20. Better yet, levels 21-25 should be some kind of advancement in Prestiege classes. I.E. If they ever add War Priest, @ level 21, they can become a "Divine" Warpriest. Maybe the requirement is to have a base BAB of 16 & tier two of Warpriest, or somthing to that affect. Make it this way so that you can do it based off of PREs and specifically off of class make up, so that Multi classers can advance as well. You could go a ton of different directions with this, even at a minimum add a Capstone for multiclassets, based off of something similar...

meb410
07-05-2011, 10:02 PM
Rage Mage (Barbarian/Wizard)

I LOVE the idea for this one, so much in fact that when I saw it I began to create a 10/10 split (Even without any new Pre's.) I love him, and I think it would be so much cooler and way more fun if we could get some multiclass prestiges in here!

/signed!!!