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Mjolnyr
06-19-2011, 03:02 AM
After update 9, vorpal becomes "not so useful" in high level quests. In many cases, banishing weapons can be even better because they do 4d6 bane damages to many kinds of mobs, which are banishable.

However, in some quests, instant-kill capability is still an important trait for weapon selection. For example: Hound of Xoriat. With the staying-against-south-wall strategy obsolete, now people have to run around the outer ring and slay renders ASAP again. Hence, hard and elite HoX now are even tougher than it was before update 9 actually.

How about making high-level vorpal weapon capable to slay mobs with higher HP?

+1 vorpal can behead a mob under 1000 HP
+2 vorpal can behead a mob under 1500 HP
+3 vorpal can behead a mob under 2000 HP
+4 vorpal can behead a mob under 2500 HP
+5 vorpal can behead a mob under 3000 HP
(epic vorpal is debatable, because the Epic Brigand's Cutlass are too popular.... at least they may do as much as +5 vorpal, I think.)

Something like that. +4 and +5 vorpal are really rare, and I do believe, making them capable to slay tougher mob is accommodated to their rarity. A +5 prefix shall not be so useless.... it's the reason I make this suggestion.

Crazyfruit
06-19-2011, 10:11 AM
Hm... semi-signed because vorpals are "useless" now. I couldn't even sell a level 12 +3 one for 3000 plat. Threw it into the decon machine instead.

Though I don't think this is the way to go, and all the named ones have a high +.

What about if instead of +X "Vorpal", there are higher level treasure mutations like "Extrasharp Vorpal", "Superior Vorpal" ...

LOOON375
06-19-2011, 10:21 AM
I just removed all of the vorpal weapons from all of my toons.

They are not selling on the AH.

protokon
06-19-2011, 10:27 AM
I still vorpal stuff while leveling. I don't think there as useless as people make them out to be.

simo0208
06-19-2011, 10:43 AM
They are not as universally useful as they once were, that's for sure. Pure damage weapons now take over as the top weapons in the game, but that's not necessarily bad.

The worst thing is that disruption is now awful. Undead mobs can be quite challenging without a good monk available to take them down quickly.

Smiting is probably the only weapon type that received a boost, especially because it hits portals too in the shroud for extra damage.

There's definitely some rebalancing that needs to occur as a result of these changes.

Daggertooth
06-19-2011, 02:38 PM
Vorpals have always been a joke. Anyone who needs to wait for a 20 before they can kill anything in this game has always been at the bottom of the dps totem pole. A monk before they lost their speed bonus w/ full GTWF and 2 kamas was the only thing that ever came close.

Vorpal is a joke. It should be a universal bane type weapon doing 4D6 extra damage to everything. As of now the 20 thing is just as much of a joke as its always been... not sure who cares about the extra 100 :rolleyes: damage that it does to things over the hp threshold... surely not enough for anyone to actually use one.

Grenada
06-19-2011, 02:42 PM
What about if instead of +X "Vorpal", there are higher level treasure mutations like "Extrasharp Vorpal", "Superior Vorpal" ...

Extrasharp vorpal (+6 equivalent effect): Kills anything with 2000 HP or less on a successful roll of a 20, followed by a confirmed hit roll. Against things with more than 2000 HP, it instead does 200 Points of bane damage

Superior vorpal (+7 equivalent effect): Same as extra sharp vorpal, but 3000 HP limit, and 300 points of bane damage

Inferior vorpal (+4 equivalent effect): Same as extrasharp vorpal, but 500 HP (no, i don't mean 5000) limit, and does 50 points of bane damage

Keened vorpal (+6 effect): same as regular vorpal, but on a roll of 19-20 (instead of 20) (only found on weapons with a 19-20 or better critical range)

Note that regular vorpal is a +5 equivalent enhancement

bigolbear
06-19-2011, 03:05 PM
might i suggest that class based accuracy 'to hit' bonuses should apply a higher hit point magrin to vorpals as these classes are beter trained to strike weak points.

so a fighters weapon focus, kensai bonus and critical accuracy should all modify up the base hit points at which a vorpal can occur.

a rogues sneak attack to hit bonus should (thus bonus for assassins) , a fvs to hit bonus should, and rangers favoured enemy bonus should.

for paladins and clerics the spell divine favour and smites should.

racialy, elves (racial weapon), dwarves (racial weapon), halflings (cunning/flanking) and human versatility.

any feat/enhancement allowing a bypass of fortification should also come with a vorpalstrike hp increasing effect.


This would put those races/classes at an advantage when it comes to accuracy based attacks where warforge/halforcs and barbs get the advantage with brute force.

I dont want to go back to the days of vorpal/wop easy buttons but ive no problem with an 'accuracy' based character seeing some kind of reward for their skills.

Ravoc-DDO
06-19-2011, 03:32 PM
Keep vorpal as is, but make it trigger on 19-20.

joneb1999
06-19-2011, 04:06 PM
Keep vorpal as is, but make it trigger on 19-20.

Either that or at least give vorpal weapons a universal lesser bane modifier and damage in addition to the natural 20 vorpal effects. Wouldn't either of these suggestions be easy and fast to implement

Emili
06-19-2011, 04:10 PM
I still vorpal stuff while leveling. I don't think there as useless as people make them out to be.
Level 10 to level 16 is usually about two to three days for most people. With taking thier time mind you. ;)


They are not as universally useful as they once were, that's for sure. Pure damage weapons now take over as the top weapons in the game, but that's not necessarily bad.

The worst thing is that disruption is now awful. Undead mobs can be quite challenging without a good monk available to take them down quickly.

Smiting is probably the only weapon type that received a boost, especially because it hits portals too in the shroud for extra damage.

There's definitely some rebalancing that needs to occur as a result of these changes.

I actually use disruptors but my meleeing toons typically strong armed to begin with and not run of the mill plain ole disruptors eitherl... usually holy or flaming they sport quite a bit of damage. Only place where going to a higher undead bane or GS holy hammers/mauls comes epic deserts...


Either that or at least give vorpal weapons a universal lesser bane modifier and damage in addition to the natural 20 vorpal effects. Wouldn't either of these suggestions be easy and fast to implement

... back on Lammania when was announced what vorpal would be I aire'd my opinion. To be honest the general populace agree'd with the changes you see today. I still contended that the vorpal would be nowhere near what it once - a weapon to remove higher HP mob. Yet, those agreeing with the dev's were bent on laying the foundation of GS and epic DPS weapons to be the real realm and way of melee... they thought that having such a common random weapon which pops out of a chest should not be so powerful.

They intended on keeping the end-game from becoming "Vorpal-fest." Also they had saw the 100 damage (average 5 per swing) as some sort of dps additive. I had pondered such and thought and riddled by such comments as while I understand half a dozen melee flailing away on some higher HP mob will likely roll a 20 pretty quickly... but then thought wait? Quite the same is true with a high DC arcane tossing wail or FoD running 'round...

Here is the skinny of the conclusion I had back then... or envisioned per say. A 20 (vorpal) usually trigger's on average at 11.5 swings off a gtwf (5 seconds while in full speed standing still) ... when you think about it this way one single gtwf melee holding a vorpal (with vorpal occuring on a roll of 20 no matter what) is the same exact equivalent as a PM clicking FoD on mobs and making DC for it... one in the same even with FoD's cooldown the single melee only rolls an 20 on average compared to that cooldown ;) ... old vorpal and FoD were => one of the same.

... and so what I see u9 implementation actually doing? Of course it openned up damage as an option for arcane this is good. It also openned up insta-kill of epic trash for arcane one which every PM would take (this is also good). However never gave insta-kill of epic trash to melee based classes (confusing). It also eliminated insta-kill of high hp trash in elite settings for melee (confusing also). I mean obviously if a mob hp lay below 1k I'm going to DPS it down with a "real" DPS weapon such as my lit II or such... is but 2 to 4 swings vs looking for a 20 roll.

Now why would you empower certain classes to wield insta-death options on high hp trash while at the same time force other classes to widdle down the mob to below trivial HP levels - the point where they'd kill it in a few swings afterwards anyway? Yes... still the question remains in my mind as to why a common random gen chest loot weapon with the power to insta-kill high hp trash mob was view to be overpowered while an arcane tossing around a spell they selected from their trainer to do the same is not? (considering vorpal rolls of 20 occur as fequently as FoD due cooldown)

Chai
06-19-2011, 04:23 PM
So +4 and 5 crappy loot gen vorpals would be pretty much vorping epic trash, and epics would turn into a vorp fest, which is exactly what the devs stated they did not want.

joneb1999
06-19-2011, 04:26 PM
Level 10 to level 16 is usually about two to three days for most people. With taking thier time mind you. ;)


Lol where do you get that info from? Are you basing this on your own, guildies and friends performance? Even if you believe you are trying to make allowances for players that are not so good I think you are overestimating a lot of, if not much of, the general player bases skill and resources.

joneb1999
06-19-2011, 04:35 PM
So +4 and 5 crappy loot gen vorpals would be pretty much vorping epic trash, and epics would turn into a vorp fest, which is exactly what the devs stated they did not want.

This is why I suggested give vorps a lesser bane effect in addition. I dont think this is overpowered but lifts them above mediocre. IE a +5 vorpal sword would get a +1 to hit and damage modifier for +6 total with a +1d6 damage against all monsters except those that can not be vorpaled.

Emili
06-19-2011, 05:11 PM
So +4 and 5 crappy loot gen vorpals would be pretty much vorping epic trash, and epics would turn into a vorp fest, which is exactly what the devs stated they did not want.
and?... what's the difference if the arcane insta-kill it? If I ran thru epic deeps with 3 melee vorpaling plus an arcane insta-killing stuff vs compared to what I have now - run thru the deeps with 1 melee whacking at things and three arcane insta-killing stuff seems I already have a "vorpal fest" option.

Emili
06-19-2011, 05:41 PM
Lol where do you get that info from? Are you basing this on your own, guildies and friends performance? Even if you believe you are trying to make allowances for players that are not so good I think you are overestimating a lot of, if not much of, the general player bases skill and resources.
OK I'll give you a week. ;)

I typically level slow... pick up favour along the way at level, Rosewood's TR and 1-20 cap took three and a half weeks - I stop and smell the flowers what may I say. Some people I know go 1-20 in a couple weeks even on 3rd life and really giving or stating these by such is bad of me... I would say is game-time. I would attribute actual play time per.

Dispel
06-19-2011, 08:02 PM
I keep Deathblock on my DT. I had my Docent of Defiance on several times and having forgotten Death Ward, have been vorpal'd and smited since the last update. It's very annoying. Just saying.

REALb0r3d
06-19-2011, 08:25 PM
I love the nerf to vorpals. They were entirely too op, and definitely dont like the tiered vorpal idea.

Though... they are a little useless now I admit. I think something like the "bleeding" suffix tacked into the vorpal effect would bring it back into the realm of better.

Brings the dps on the prefix to something like 7.5? per swing on >1000hp mobs. Sounds pretty good to me.

transtemporal
06-19-2011, 11:58 PM
/not signed. Viable instakill for epics encourages poorly-built melees who rely on the vorpal effect, but can’t dps a boss worth a nickel.

Emili
06-20-2011, 12:20 AM
I love the nerf to vorpals. They were entirely too op, and definitely dont like the tiered vorpal idea.

Though... they are a little useless now I admit. I think something like the "bleeding" suffix tacked into the vorpal effect would bring it back into the realm of better.

Brings the dps on the prefix to something like 7.5? per swing on >1000hp mobs. Sounds pretty good to me.
That still makes for a crapy weapon which belongs on the deconstruct table in the crafting hall because vorpal's costs to weapon ml is so high. Fact is vorpal as a prefix is lost value because of it's ml. It would be different if +4 holy silver x of geob (ml 16) was a higher than a +2 vorpal silver x weapon of geob (ml 18) but it's not. You can see that the +4 holy = 11 while the +2 vorpal = 9.5 given the scheme you offer yet vorpal cost's to the weapon places it +2 more in ml. To equate these two the vorpal in dps terms would have to be +4 to pass the holy or +3 just to be slightly underneath but now you're looking at ml 22 or ml 20 weapon. ;) Btw... are some interesting facts, a GS Lit II is a min lvl 12 (I remember when was ml 8, in fact still have some) but, if you could craft it via the new crafting system or if it dropped in a chest it would be a ml 24... and the min II likewise.

The only vorpals actually worth keeping are eChaos blades and eBrigand cutlass ... both of which would be perfectly fine weapons even without the vorpal on them.

I also relate this to you as I'm running in eDQ1 alone on my PM ... mob already insta-kill easily and quicker in other ways.

Gkar
06-20-2011, 12:28 AM
I still vorpal stuff while leveling. I don't think there as useless as people make them out to be.

At what level does it make sense?

At 1000 hp you would have to be doing less than 50ish damage/swing for it to make sense to use a vorpal. By the time you are L10 and can hold a vorpal, you damn well better be doing more damage than that on a melee.

LordPiglet
06-20-2011, 01:16 AM
So +4 and 5 crappy loot gen vorpals would be pretty much vorping epic trash, and epics would turn into a vorp fest, which is exactly what the devs stated they did not want.

my preference would be that vorpals function as before on normal content (normal - elite)

the new function really should only apply on epic

mournbladereigns
06-20-2011, 01:21 AM
I agree, they need to make Vorp do at least 250 on mobs over 1000hp, and insta-kill on less than that. Or give superior bleed damage like Disruptors/banishers/smiters - either 4d6, or 3d6 since they work on more mobs. That would make them as useful as the other speciality weapons, and have them work the same. Consistency good!

protokon
06-20-2011, 01:25 AM
Maybe put a fort save on it. failed save, instant death -regardless of hitpoints. make the save and keep it where it is, 100 points of damage. if less than 1k hp, death without a save.

I think folks are wanting the insta-kill affect, but there really isn't a viable option to return it without making epics a vorpal-fest, but putting a save on them will at least make them an option instead of the new solution.

joneb1999
06-21-2011, 05:54 PM
Maybe put a fort save on it. failed save, instant death -regardless of hitpoints. make the save and keep it where it is, 100 points of damage. if less than 1k hp, death without a save.

I think folks are wanting the insta-kill affect, but there really isn't a viable option to return it without making epics a vorpal-fest, but putting a save on them will at least make them an option instead of the new solution.

I think folks really just want a better chance on an instakill. The chance is too low for epic. Its understandable as otherwise vorpal swords are a joke and there is no point to them and that beggars the question why not judt ged rid of them. I think if they did slightly more damage or to bring mobs within the vorpal range a bit quicker but not enough to out dps a dps based weapon they would be viable again for NON melee focussed wielders but not worth the while for melees whose dps weapons are still greater. I think they should either have lesser bane effects or have at least extra rolled damage on a crit that isnt a natural twenty.

With the rogue assassins 3 prestige I think natural vorpal weapon damage should be double or instakill on 2k or less xp reflecting their trained ability to accurately target an opponents weak point. EDIT