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View Full Version : Remove or Reduce Resistances from Ships



stille_nacht
06-16-2011, 08:51 AM
As a member of a high level guild, i feel like that of all the ship buffs, which give +1 here or +2 there, resistances are by far the most inbalanced. A 2 stat points or 1 ac is acceptable, but automatic 30 pts of resistance from level 1 seems like a clear and unfair advantage that people in big guilds have.

Ex:
John is a newb. He goes into korthos and he is having a lot of fun! but woe betide him if he cant kill the kobold shamans fast enough on hard, or the scorching rays will get im and his party, and they do sometimes. Not to mention those high damage lightning bolts in elites!

I am part of a high level guild. I may or may not have just joined it 2 days ago and made and alt. I dont care about scorching rays, because i have 30 guild fire resistance. I dont worry very much about lightning bolts, because i have 30 guild electric resistance. When i group with people like john, i notice now much things like scorching ray chip away at their hp bar, and then remember that oh, these things do a lot of damage to them, and then try to snipe shamans.

i feel like this is unbalanced in regards to gameplay, and that guild ship resistance should be, if not removed, reduced to a maximum of 10 pts.
or as some have suggested, have them scale as so at lv: (might be hard to code)
1-6:10 pts
7-10: 20 pts
11-20: 30 pts
(credit to kobold killer)

ps- before someone tells me to stop using resistances, i did, just to have fun. but there are these things called other people who dont care if it is unbalanced.

edit- to spell it out for people. Balance= fairness between players, its something that many agree is conducive to an MMO working, i find it suprising that people would argue that balance is irrelavent. My argument is that the resists are significantly unbalanced, especially in a low level of play. This is not an issue of "controlling other people to meet my style of gameplay", if every single person had access to a high level guildship, i would not care. (why do people always want to leap to that conclusion anyway?) But as not everyone has a high lv guildship/ is partied with a person who is willing/able to give invites.

Gkar
06-16-2011, 08:53 AM
Why do you care how other people play?

KoboldKiller
06-16-2011, 08:54 AM
As far as I'm concerned they can remove the ships altogether.

I don't use ship buffs as I didn't have them before and to me it's a pain to run to the ship and get rebuffed or hold up a group while I am getting buffed.

KoboldKiller
06-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Why do you care how other people play?


It's not a matter of how people play it's a matter of balance.

Another solution would be to limit the level of resists by the level of the alt. Not sure how the coding would work.

stille_nacht
06-16-2011, 08:56 AM
Why do you care how other people play?

well to give an extreme example so you can understand-

imagine high level guilds give out a "you cant die" (like celimas) and "you autocrit all enemies". Many people would do this, and it would be extremely unfair. I feel like this is wrong.

i mean, if every single person in the harbor were in a high level guild (not happening) then i wouldnt care about the resistances, but they arent. So i feel like they provide a significant unfair advantage

fluffi
06-16-2011, 08:57 AM
Why do you care what other people do?

How much farming would there be if there was a +6 str item with no ml on it? There is the equvilant in ship buffs through the +2 damage and +2 str = +3 to damage per hit.

If you are the one that put up the lfm, you can state no ship buffs or no ship resistance buffs.

LoveNeverFails
06-16-2011, 08:57 AM
Another solution would be to limit the level of resists by the level of the alt. Not sure how the coding would work.

i like this solution.

stille_nacht
06-16-2011, 09:00 AM
Why do you care what other people do?

How much farming would there be if there was a +6 str item with no ml on it? There is the equvilant in ship buffs through the +2 damage and +2 str = +3 to damage per hit.

If you are the one that put up the lfm, you can state no ship buffs or no ship resistance buffs.

please read carefully the bottom part about "balance".


It's not a matter of how people play it's a matter of balance.

Another solution would be to limit the level of resists by the level of the alt. Not sure how the coding would work.

that interesting, but seems a bit tricky to code

SirAggravator
06-16-2011, 09:02 AM
It's not a matter of how people play it's a matter of balance.

Another solution would be to limit the level of resists by the level of the alt. Not sure how the coding would work.
I was going to say that too,a better implementation would be
the resistance is based on the level of the person using the shrine

e.g.
level 1-6 = 10 pt resist
level 7-11 = 20 pt
level 12+ = 30 pt

Dexxaan
06-16-2011, 09:04 AM
IF the following get a solution or needed attention:

* The Ladder Bug
* The Load screen Bug

* Revert to the old Combat Expertise AP (max 7 AC iirc);
* Give Dwarves Defender PrE (Too many Big & Tall people running around Stormreach lately... what is this place Steroidville?) Plus AC is broke anyway right?
* Remove P2P LFM´s from non P2P players so that the P2P´s quit having to research and find out (for the friggin F2P´r) if the quest THEY are trying to get into....is available to ... THEM!

And on top of all things: You give VIP (paying) players a noteworthy perk / advantage reason to be one...

Then strip us of the Resistance buffs on our Large Guild Ships.



Fair enough?



.

Memnir
06-16-2011, 09:07 AM
I'm absurdly fond of my ship... so I hope they don't remove them. :)


As for the resistances, I can see both sides of the issue. A higher level guild yields buffs that trivialize a lot of the challenges in lower levels. This is not much of an issue for TRs. But I can see for a new(er) player, that reduction in challenge may dilute a lot of what makes the game fun.

I still think that guild shrines should scale, and not offer static amounts of resistance. I think five points of resistance per five levels is fair. The only thing that the higher levels of shrine should offer at greater amounts of time that it lasts for. The Least shrines last for 30 min, and up.


Granted, I don't really care too much how other people play. If they feel like the ship buffs are making things too easy, they should just skip em. The only ship buff I find to be utterly critical is the XP shrine when leveling, really. But, I think my idea would lessen the low level impact a bit, and not change higher level play much at all.

stille_nacht
06-16-2011, 09:13 AM
IF the following get a solution or needed attention:

* The Ladder Bug not a vip perk
* The Load screen Bug not a vip perk

* Revert to the old Combat Expertise AP (max 7 AC iirc); not a vip perk
* Give Dwarves Defender PrE (Too many Big & Tall people running around Stormreach lately... what is this place Steroidville?) Plus AC is broke anyway right? not a vip perk/ doesnt exist/ unrelated totally
* Remove P2P LFM´s from non P2P players so that the P2P´s quit having to research and find out (for the friggin F2P´r) if the quest THEY are trying to get into....is available to ... THEM! not really a vip perk

And on top of all things: You give VIP (paying) players a noteworthy perk / advantage reason to be one...

Then strip us of the Resistance buffs on our Large Guild Ships.

Fair enough?

.
not really, those are a bunch of minor gripes you have, i assume this isnt trolling, but a sincere attempt to point out other flaws...
also, how is ViP even related to this? we are talking about large guilds here, not ViPs.

lhidda
06-16-2011, 09:16 AM
A solution can be:

resist=characterlevel/20*30.

Makes it:
--> 1.5 3 4.5 6 7.5 9 10.5 12 13.5 15 16.5 18 19.5 21 22.5 24 25.5 27 28.5 30
for levels in ascending order.

Round the numbers, if u need to (round up):
--> 2 3 5 6 8 9 11 12 14 15 17 18 20 21 23 24 26 27 29 30

Wanna start from 5 points- 30 points (round up) ???
--> 5 6 8 9 10 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 25 26 27 29 30



or as some have suggested, have them scale as so at lv: (might be hard to code)


Its is NOT difficult to code.

janez
06-16-2011, 09:21 AM
Same old envy, lets make people equal story.
Nothing good comes from that. Ever. Trust me. Kills initiative and slows progress. Makes people lazy moaners that are satisfied with average.

- There are level 60+ guilds that give free invites on all servers. Do 'Who', send a tell, get invite, and get buffs. Still unfair?

- There are whole guilds that enforce permadeath rules of some kind (most of them don't allow ship buffs at all). If those are too harsh you could perhaps make your own rules or join a guild/group that enforces them.

- As someone else suggested, don't play with buffed people if you can't stand them.

Just requires a little initiative instead of moaning :)

Junts
06-16-2011, 09:26 AM
Ship resist buffs are probably overpowered prior to running tangleroot on hard, but after that the extra 10 pts and the convenience of not having to go back as often are pretty much convenience perks.

I dont think the harbor is difficult enough to merit a significant coding change. Yeah, its woefully overpowered there, but so are the ac buffs - even a sorc can get enough ac to be missed most of the time in the harbor with the +3 from the boat, with 0 starting investment in dex and no ac feats or anything. Just some black widow bracers, shield, and the feats is enough to get missed.

stille_nacht
06-16-2011, 09:29 AM
Same old envy, lets make people equal story.
Nothing good comes from that. Ever. Trust me. Kills initiative and slows progress. Makes people lazy moaners that are satisfied with average.

- There are level 60+ guilds that give free invites on all servers. Do 'Who', send a tell, get invite, and get buffs. Still unfair?

- There are whole guilds that enforce permadeath rules of some kind (most of them don't allow ship buffs at all). If those are too harsh you could perhaps make your own rules or join a guild/group that enforces them.

- As someone else suggested, don't play with buffed people if you can't stand them.

Just requires a little initiative instead of moaning :)

how is "initiative and progress" going to come from trivializing any early elemental damage. satisfied with average? being in a large guild is not a matter of self improvement, its a matter of "i know so and so"

- yes, not everyone is getting an invite obviously, even if they wait around for it, not to mention that most large guilds dont give random invites on many servers.
- unrelated topic
- its an issue of balance, not of play

too often the mentality of "lets ignore the problem to fix it" under the guise of "you cant control people" is used. I suppose you'd say the same thing if there was a "seeker +6 shrine" too? everyone should show the "initiative" to farm a bloodstone?

this is not moaning, its a request to balance the game more. balance is good, i wouldnt have thought anyone would disagree

Cyr
06-16-2011, 09:31 AM
edit- to spell it out for people. Balance= fairness between players, its something that many agree is conducive to an MMO working. ..But as not everyone has a high lv guildship/ is partied with a person who is willing/able to give invites.

This is where the argument breaks down to me.

This same blanket argument could be used in the same manner to attack peoples loot and peoples builds (TR's for example). However, it is a flawed argument at it's core.

The argument assumes that fairness = everyone should be equal despite the time put in. That is anathema to MMO design not conductive to it. You see not everyone has high level guilds, just like not everyone has a TR, or has any better loot then starter rags.

However, everyone has the potential to get these things. They are not locked out of being able to get loot, get a guild airship, or level a guy to 20 and then TR them. They have this ability just like the next guy playing the game.

Just because someone has already earned something in game does not make it unfair to others who have not.

Krago
06-16-2011, 09:33 AM
They should just remove the resist shrines all together. It makes low lvl quests on elite trivial. The only concern in those quests are the ogres.

At end content, its a minor convenience to not have to cast the resists on yourself saving yourself/party 15 sp per cast. SP pools at end content are nice and deep anyway.

Possible suggestion:

Make the shrines add +5 points resist that stacks with House P buffs and Resist Energy. This might make House P buffs useful again and the shrines not overpowering at low lvl.

Gkar
06-16-2011, 09:35 AM
well to give an extreme example so you can understand-

imagine high level guilds give out a "you cant die" (like celimas) and "you autocrit all enemies". Many people would do this, and it would be extremely unfair. I feel like this is wrong.

i mean, if every single person in the harbor were in a high level guild (not happening) then i wouldnt care about the resistances, but they arent. So i feel like they provide a significant unfair advantage

Still don't see how any of that impacts you if you don't use them. And tossing out the word "balance" doesn't explain it either unless you can explain how someone else's experience in a seperate instance hurts yours.


I was going to say that too,a better implementation would be
the resistance is based on the level of the person using the shrine

e.g.
level 1-6 = 10 pt resist
level 7-11 = 20 pt
level 12+ = 30 pt

yeah, many of us suggested similar things when it was first previewed. I would adjust that a bit though...

1-5 = 10 pt resist
6-10= 20 pt resist
11+ = 30 pt

My resasoning is that at L6 you can buy 20 pt pots in the 12 and can conceivably have P favor for 20 pt resists (before the ship and the 12 that was always my target after coin lord favor and its attainable)

A L11 30 pt resists are castable.

That makes the shrines just convinient, but giving no real advantage

stille_nacht
06-16-2011, 09:36 AM
This is where the argument breaks down to me.

This same blanket argument could be used in the same manner to attack peoples loot and peoples builds (TR's for example). However, it is a flawed argument at it's core.

The argument assumes that fairness = everyone should be equal despite the time put in. That is anathema to MMO design not conductive to it. You see not everyone has high level guilds, just like not everyone has a TR, or has any better loot then starter rags.

However, everyone has the potential to get these things. They are not locked out of being able to get loot, get a guild airship, or level a guy to 20 and then TR them. They have this ability just like the next guy playing the game.

Just because someone has already earned something in game does not make it unfair to others who have not.

i argue not on the basis of absolute (impossible) balance, but of significant balance.

+2 str? fine, thats only another damage and to-hit. TR twink gear? its just equivalent of all the grinding you did/ not better than the best on the market. Bit more stats on a TR? not even a noticeable change until later, besides levelling all the way to cap is more than an acceptable downside to getting a few extra pts.
insignificant inbalance

Resistances? trivialize early elemental damage for anyone in a large guild. You step into korthos, but with 30 resistance. You can ignore all the spell casters if you feel like it. What is the cost/downside? you know someone.
significant inbalance

varusso
06-16-2011, 09:37 AM
Ahhh the weekly nerf the ship buffs thread.
No.

RudeIota
06-16-2011, 09:43 AM
However, everyone has the potential to get these things. They are not locked out of being able to get loot, get a guild airship, or level a guy to 20 and then TR them. They have this ability just like the next guy playing the game.


That's fine an all, but the problem I have with the resistance shrines are they are overpowered for EVERYONE at early levels.

30 points of fire/lightning resist make the harbor and marketplace a breeze. On elite, Kobold Shamans who could once almost one-shot unsuspecting toons without toughness now barely tickle. It has essentially taken ALL of the challenge out of lower level missions for both newbies and experienced players as spell damage (and traps) are the only sources of mortal danger this early on.

People talk about "easy buttons" all the time. The resistance shrines are just that at lower levels. At higher levels, they become more of a convenience.

Pomdude
06-16-2011, 09:43 AM
Why not tie access to the ship / parts of it to favour or Guild points towards the ship level?

The more you contribute the more you can access e.g.

Doing this tied to contribution to Guild points means that in order to access the ship you have to contribute to it. This would help Guilds who have players who are inactive - putting chests in higher point areas etc.

2500 Guild Points = The top deck
5000 points the bridge
7500 points = The lower decks

or something like that. I don't take much notice of ships apart from experience shrines so not sure how this would work.

Nice post - anything to make the Game more challenging again works for me.

Stergan
06-16-2011, 09:50 AM
not really, those are a bunch of minor gripes you have, i assume this isnt trolling, but a sincere attempt to point out other flaws...
also, how is ViP even related to this? we are talking about large guilds here, not ViPs.

Well to me, this thread is about a minor gripe YOU have with the game. Why should the large guilds that lost out on plat/crafting fodder in order to advance their guild be punished? Those resists are earned, and just like everything else in the game thats worth getting require effort to achive. To me, it is fair. Any guild can get them, they just have to grind for it. Making levels 1-6 easier to complete is the reward those guilds have earned.

/notsigned

Cyr
06-16-2011, 09:51 AM
i argue not on the basis of absolute (impossible) balance, but of significant balance.

+2 str? fine, thats only another damage and to-hit. TR twink gear? its just equivalent of all the grinding you did/ not better than the best on the market. Bit more stats on a TR? not even a noticeable change until later, besides levelling all the way to cap is more than an acceptable downside to getting a few extra pts.
insignificant inbalance

Resistances? trivialize early elemental damage for anyone in a large guild. You step into korthos, but with 30 resistance. You can ignore all the spell casters if you feel like it. What is the cost/downside? you know someone.
significant inbalance


Arguing that the buffs are too strong for anyone IS an argument that can get some traction.

Tying it to this it's unfair because someone else does not have it yet although all they have to do to get it is work for it is an argument that makes no sense from a logical perspective and which has at it's end point a game with no character advancement.

Dendrix
06-16-2011, 09:57 AM
Ship guild resistance buffs should be Artifact Bonus and stack with everything
Small Shrine = 3pts
Med Shrine = 6pts
Large Shring = 10pts

rest
06-16-2011, 10:05 AM
I guess it sucks to be a noob with no guild.

voodoogroves
06-16-2011, 10:10 AM
You know, we've got a ship and I rarely use it on normal leveling/questing. I only care about it (or really, get invites to bigger ships) before serious content - late game hard/elite, some epics, etc.

Except the XP shrine and navigator. I use that.

Yeah yeah resists are nice, but honestly I rarely spend the time to run there. Sure, I get how they can be unbalancing but I didn't use most of the P/J buffs before either.

Dexxaan
06-16-2011, 11:29 AM
not really, those are a bunch of minor gripes you have, i assume this isnt trolling, but a sincere attempt to point out other flaws... (WRONG!! - EPIC Humor/Sarcasm fail!)
also, how is ViP even related to this? we are talking about large guilds here, not ViPs.

My response is basically - Read Smileys - they tend to add humor to an otherwise silly request made in this thread. I responded in a silly way to a silly request in order to make it perfectly clear that what has been requested is.... Funny at best.

These next Quotes also put things in perspective but from a much more formal approach (I´m done being serious in the Forums btw)



Well to me, this thread is about a minor gripe YOU have with the game. Why should the large guilds that lost out on plat/crafting fodder in order to advance their guild be punished? Those resists are earned, and just like everything else in the game thats worth getting require effort to achive. To me, it is fair. Any guild can get them, they just have to grind for it. Making levels 1-6 easier to complete is the reward those guilds have earned.

/notsigned

It doesn´t get much clearer than this huh? (Capitalism vs Socialism comes to mind)


This is where the argument breaks down to me.

This same blanket argument could be used in the same manner to attack peoples loot and peoples builds (TR's for example). However, it is a flawed argument at it's core.

The argument assumes that fairness = everyone should be equal despite the time put in. That is anathema to MMO design not conductive to it. You see not everyone has high level guilds, just like not everyone has a TR, or has any better loot then starter rags.

However, everyone has the potential to get these things. They are not locked out of being able to get loot, get a guild airship, or level a guy to 20 and then TR them. They have this ability just like the next guy playing the game.

Just because someone has already earned something in game does not make it unfair to others who have not.

/agreed.


....snip....this is not moaning, its a request to balance the game more. balance is good, i wouldnt have thought anyone would disagree

Balance is Good.... LMAO - in an MMO played by Humans? Time to open your eyes or leave GrandMa´s basement.


Same old envy, lets make people equal story.
Nothing good comes from that. Ever. Trust me. Kills initiative and slows progress. Makes people lazy moaners that are satisfied with average.

- There are level 60+ guilds that give free invites on all servers. Do 'Who', send a tell, get invite, and get buffs. Still unfair?

- There are whole guilds that enforce permadeath rules of some kind (most of them don't allow ship buffs at all). If those are too harsh you could perhaps make your own rules or join a guild/group that enforces them.

- As someone else suggested, don't play with buffed people if you can't stand them.

Just requires a little initiative instead of moaning :)

Yet another clarification.... it just amazes me that..... welll no it doesn´t..... :eek:

/agreed

.

Uska
06-16-2011, 12:14 PM
As far as I'm concerned they can remove the ships altogether.

I don't use ship buffs as I didn't have them before and to me it's a pain to run to the ship and get rebuffed or hold up a group while I am getting buffed.

I find it highly annoying when someone joins the group and then have to wait on them to ship buff or more annoying when farming a quest and someone runs off after a few runs to reship buff I think I am going to start bailing on those groups

Khanyth
06-16-2011, 12:19 PM
The Michael Scott Win-Win-Win Solution:

Leave it alone.

Win - those who like them get to keep using them
Win - those who don't like them can continue to not use them, and take the "I'm so uber I don't need <insert ship buff name here>" high road
Win - Turbine doesn't have to do jack to "fix" this "problem" for vast minority of people who think this is a "problem" when it is not

/notsigned

Kushiel
06-16-2011, 12:28 PM
The Michael Scott Win-Win-Win Solution:

Leave it alone.

Win - those who like them get to keep using them
Win - those who don't like them can continue to not use them, and take the "I'm so uber I don't need <insert ship buff name here>" high road
Win - Turbine doesn't have to do jack to "fix" this "problem" for vast minority of people who think this is a "problem" when it is not

/notsigned

...and chuckling over the *vast minority* line. Good use of words, there. ;-}

KillEveryone
06-16-2011, 12:59 PM
/not signed.

A guild worked for those buffs. Let them reap their rewards.

Rakian_Knight
06-16-2011, 01:11 PM
I have to agree with the OP on this one. The rest of the ship buffs are slight bonuses provide small bonuses but none of them other then the resistance shrines are basically handing out caster level 30 extended buffs. Even some nice solutions have been made that would be better for both low level and high level play.

Scale with level
Since they are basically the spell have them be like a spell of that character's level with an hour duration. Basically if your character is levels 1-5 10 points, 6-10 20 points, and 11-20 30 points having the cap for lesser, normal, and greater shrines being the 10-20-30 points.

Artifact Bonus
Like most of the other shrines have the resistance shrine act as a small artifact bonus. The numbers could be debated however something as simple as 5-10-15 would be interesting. That would allow both low levels that have a caster with resist get up to 25 points but only if someone buffs them with the spell by casting it or by potions. Other then that they have a small 15 at cap bonus. This also allows higher level character to have a 45 point resistance buff instead of the 30 points now so it would be a bonus at low and high level other then the kind AMAZINGLY POWERFUL at low levels and meh at high levels.

Elemental Negation
Basically this would be something that would remove a percent of the elemental damage. This would be a huge bonus at higher levels for people who don't have greensteel items crafted and still a nice bonus at low levels without taking the complete chance of failure out. Having the bonuses being something like 5%-15%-25% would be what I would imagine the numbers being but I'm not a cruncher so I don't know how much this would effect things. Basically at high levels, I'd be taking a quarter of the elemental damage out of attacks of the element until you died then you would be back to the 30 points.

Just my thoughts
~Rakian_Knight

Bilger
06-16-2011, 01:11 PM
I love these posts i don't have so you shouldn't have it.

Not saying you exactly still but these posts where saying since they don't have it ruins the game for them is bs.

I have worked hard for what have and so has guild to get to the point we at and seriously yea in lower lvls ships make chars a lil overpowered, but how does that hurt your play?

It doesn't so I get a few extra kills and traps hurt less comparibly to a newb, but we earned it and why does it hurt your gameplay me having something you don't.

Seriously, they will be there someday when they do they will have same benifit and how is that hurting anyone.

Me making a quest easier for myself and others is bad why?

Maxallu
06-16-2011, 01:19 PM
As a member of a high level guild, i feel like that of all the ship buffs, which give +1 here or +2 there, resistances are by far the most inbalanced. A 2 stat points or 1 ac is acceptable, but automatic 30 pts of resistance from level 1 seems like a clear and unfair advantage that people in big guilds have.

Ex:
John is a newb. He goes into korthos and he is having a lot of fun! but woe betide him if he cant kill the kobold shamans fast enough on hard, or the scorching rays will get im and his party, and they do sometimes. Not to mention those high damage lightning bolts in elites!

I am part of a high level guild. I may or may not have just joined it 2 days ago and made and alt. I dont care about scorching rays, because i have 30 guild fire resistance. I dont worry very much about lightning bolts, because i have 30 guild electric resistance. When i group with people like john, i notice now much things like scorching ray chip away at their hp bar, and then remember that oh, these things do a lot of damage to them, and then try to snipe shamans.

i feel like this is unbalanced in regards to gameplay, and that guild ship resistance should be, if not removed, reduced to a maximum of 10 pts.
or as some have suggested, have them scale as so at lv: (might be hard to code)
1-6:10 pts
7-10: 20 pts
11-20: 30 pts
(credit to kobold killer)

ps- before someone tells me to stop using resistances, i did, just to have fun. but there are these things called other people who dont care if it is unbalanced.

edit- to spell it out for people. Balance= fairness between players, its something that many agree is conducive to an MMO working, i find it suprising that people would argue that balance is irrelavent. My argument is that the resists are significantly unbalanced, especially in a low level of play. This is not an issue of "controlling other people to meet my style of gameplay", if every single person had access to a high level guildship, i would not care. (why do people always want to leap to that conclusion anyway?) But as not everyone has a high lv guildship/ is partied with a person who is willing/able to give invites.


This is silly. Who spends more than a couple hours in the harbor anyway?

Rakian_Knight
06-16-2011, 01:22 PM
This is silly. Who spends more than a couple hours in the harbor anyway?

Mainly people who want to see more then one or two quest run over and over for xp.

Milfeulle
06-16-2011, 01:30 PM
Resist shrine doesn't ruin this game, TR does, jk.
You don't just play this game for couple of hours and make a guild and lv it to lv60 ship and start using them. You don't just randomly search a guild that's above lv60 and send tell says invite to guild plz.
But just like TR, you earned it.

Krago
06-16-2011, 01:36 PM
Resist shrine doesn't ruin this game, TR does, jk.
You don't just play this game for couple of hours and make a guild and lv it to lv60 ship and start using them. You don't just randomly search a guild that's above lv60 and send tell says invite to guild plz.
But just like TR, you earned it.

You dont need to make a guild to benefit, just get an airship invite to a lvl 60 guild.

Hendrik
06-16-2011, 01:49 PM
You dont need to make a guild to benefit, just get an airship invite to a lvl 60 guild.

Or, just go to House P and get the resists buffs there.

No Airship needed, no Guild needed, just minimal favor.

Oops! Prolly should not have pointed that out, someone may want those 'overpowered' buffs gone too because someone else may have access to them while another may not.

Bilger
06-16-2011, 01:53 PM
Or, just go to House P and get the resists buffs there.

No Airship needed, no Guild needed, just minimal favor.

Oops! Prolly should not have pointed that out, someone may want those 'overpowered' buffs gone too because someone else may have access to them while another may not.

Be quiet Hen don't ruin House P buffs to:eek::D

English_Warrior
06-16-2011, 02:02 PM
This has been argued over and over again on the forums, we have seen all the arguments for and against and I find myself on the OPs side of the debate.

The resist shrines need to be scaled to level....a full set of long lasting 30 point elemental resists available to level 1 toons is overpowered.

In my opinion the arguments against hold little to no merit.

Bilger
06-16-2011, 02:14 PM
This has been argued over and over again on the forums, we have seen all the arguments for and against and I find myself on the OPs side of the debate.

The resist shrines need to be scaled to level....a full set of long lasting 30 point elemental resists available to level 1 toons is overpowered.

In my opinion the arguments against hold little to no merit.

And IMO the arguments for hold lil to no merrit:cool:

Seriously how is it affecting anyone else play?

Give me a GOOD response and I might be swayed.

All I am hearing is alot of they don't have why should you.

WE EARNED IT!!!

What apart of earned it is hard to comprehend. It took lotsa of play and time to get.

How is that hard to understand?

It effects you in the least what another player has for buffs.

O sorry I made the quest easy next time make your own group and say no ship buffs allowed because it makes game 2 easy lmao

Krago
06-16-2011, 02:23 PM
And IMO the arguments for hold lil to no merrit:cool:

Seriously how is it affecting anyone else play?

. . .

I dont think its a matter of who has access to the buffs but when those buffs are allowed. The Resist energy spell is granted at lvl 3/4 depending on class and only then does it give a +10 resist bonus.

You can now go get a +30 bonus from any appropriate lvl guild as soon as you create your toon.

It affects me when the new players think they are all that and a bag of chips because they soloed Butchers on elite with their 6 Con elf and then wonder what happened to their power when they hit GH.

English_Warrior
06-16-2011, 02:25 PM
And IMO the arguments for hold lil to no merrit:cool:

Seriously how is it affecting anyone else play?

Give me a GOOD response and I might be swayed.

All I am hearing is alot of they don't have why should you.

WE EARNED IT!!!

What apart of earned it is hard to comprehend. It took lotsa of play and time to get.

How is that hard to understand?

It effects you in the least what another player has for buffs.

O sorry I made the quest easy next time make your own group and say no ship buffs allowed because it makes game 2 easy lmao

Really? we have to go over the arguments in detail for the tenth time this month....ok

I think the error you are making is in your premise...this isn't about envy...everybody has access to these buffs...I can't remember the last time I was in a low level group and the group didn't get offered an invite to some korthos recruiting mega-guilds ship. Its not about envy or keeping up with the jonses or nerfing somebody elses achievements its about fixing an obvious error that the devs have made in the implementation of ship buffs.

Every argument that has been presented against is either a knee-jerk "don't nerf me" response or simply isn't logically sound.

Edit: stealth negged for this....at least have the guts to respond to the argument instead of being a coward and hiding in the background negging people you don't agree with...also there needs to be a system in place to punish people who abuse the rep system.

macubrae
06-16-2011, 02:29 PM
I like my ship buffs. My guild is only in the low 30's, so I only have 10 resistence, but they come in handy. I do understand where the problem lies. Some elite players are going to begin complaining that the harbor content is way to easy and possibly tug an ear that has the ability to change that. An update comes along and guildless and low level guildies are then handed their arses on a silver platter, for the sake of challenge.

When the devs start considering making the harbor tougher, this might be a valid point. Until then, there will be 'have's' and 'have not's' as always. One of my toons pulled a lavender ioun stone at third level and easily sold it on the AH in the high 6 figures. In 24 other toons, between the wife and myself in 2 years of playing, nothing.

IMO it just isn't a problem that needs attention... yet. If the demands for more lower level challenge arises, I say nerf'm

Bilger
06-16-2011, 02:34 PM
I dont think its a matter of who has access to the buffs but when those buffs are allowed. The Resist energy spell is granted at lvl 3/4 depending on class and only then does it give a +10 resist bonus.

You can now go get a +30 bonus from any appropriate lvl guild as soon as you create your toon.

It affects me when the new players think they are all that and a bag of chips because they soloed Butchers on elite with their 6 Con elf and then wonder what happened to their power when they hit GH.

The only way that will effect you is in a 10% xp loss because any good player can compensate for the bad player.

Yes I know you shouldn't have to and by GH they should of learned to play and realized that that 6 con elf sucks.

There are always those types and have been from beg the 250 no fort rogue in shroud for instance and such.

People will always be carried through this game and the buffs make no differance in the long run.

Buffs from ships make no differance AT all in anyones learning curve they will or won't learn.

With ship buffs may take a lil longer to catch on but they will if competent. If not then there was no teaching anyways.

You will run into them in GH with or without these buffs we did before we had them and always will.

Bilger
06-16-2011, 02:36 PM
Really? we have to go over the arguments in detail for the tenth time this month....ok

I think the error you are making is in your premise...this isn't about envy...everybody has access to these buffs...I can't remember the last time I was in a low level group and the group didn't get offered an invite to some korthos recruiting mega-guilds ship. Its not about envy or keeping up with the jonses or nerfing somebody elses achievements its about fixing an obvious error that the devs have made in the implementation of ship buffs.

Every argument that has been presented against is either a knee-jerk "don't nerf me" response or simply isn't logically sound.

I am not saying don't nerf me just saying competence is competence if have it will learn if not will never learn.

Buffs from a ship may make it take a lil longer for some to learn but they will.

Like said before if not competent they will never learn and ship buffs or no it doesn't matter.

Chai
06-16-2011, 02:40 PM
Make them not stackable as well. 20 point house P buffs + 30 points of ship buffs...

Casters? What casters?

Oh yeah you mean those guys that cast hold which makes the melee more dangerous once in a while.

Kushiel
06-16-2011, 02:48 PM
If we only had *right now* to deal with, maybe they would be in need of *immediate* adjustment.

We don't know what's coming. Things could get really really bad before they get better. Don't be too quick to strip yourselves of something you could find yourself greatly desiring just around the corner.

If people are having *fun* decking themselves out with powerful buffs, at low levels, that could be a great thing. As/if they get tired of it (or want to push themselves if they revist the content TR'd) - they can forgo using their own boats... or getting invites to the boats with better stuff.

It's all quite... Optional. It's a Choice. If you are advocating limiting your own choices, that's all well and good, but try not to be overly hasty in limiting the choices of others. In that recurring theme of arguing over Balance for the MMO characters/players/world - don't discount the tip of the scales towards the different folks who are having *fun* with what's available.

Discipline*Fun*Concentration*Relaxation
---Good Habits*Healthy Spontaneity---
-----Old Memories*New Horizons----
------Tact*Truth*Anchors*Sails---
-------Humbleness*Confidence---
--------Structure*Freedom---
---------Strength*Mercy--
-------------Balance--
---------------**-
-------------Balance--
---------BalanceBalance--
------BalanceBalanceBalance-
----BalanceBalanceBalanceBalance-


--
What's it doing there?
The Backstroke!
--

varusso
06-16-2011, 02:48 PM
Really? we have to go over the arguments in detail for the tenth time this month....ok

I think the error you are making is in your premise...this isn't about envy...everybody has access to these buffs...I can't remember the last time I was in a low level group and the group didn't get offered an invite to some korthos recruiting mega-guilds ship. Its not about envy or keeping up with the jonses or nerfing somebody elses achievements its about fixing an obvious error that the devs have made in the implementation of ship buffs.

Every argument that has been presented against is either a knee-jerk "don't nerf me" response or simply isn't logically sound.
One can also argue that every time someone cries nerf the ships, they completely ignore the fact that the ships are at the BOTTOM of the pile in terms of what trivializes content. And the few who DONT ignore that fact are the ones calling for generalized nerfing of pretty much everything.


I cant remember the last time i was in a group where I or someone else didnt have resists that could be cast if needed, and where those resists werent adequate for the content. Or when I couldnt go buy pots that would do the job. Or wands. Or scrolls. Or house buffs. Or just wear my abashai set until other, better versions were available to me.

Ship buffs are a convenience, nothing more (XP shrine is REAL convenient :D ). If ship buffs are making or breaking your ability to do an at-lvl quest, the problem is not the ship. If ship buffs are allowing you to do a higher than normal quest, yay for you. If you are attempting that higher than normal quest (even with buffs), chances are its not your first stroll through the harbor/market. Its not going to be a challenge regardless, due to your twink gear and game knowledge. It makes it easier for a newbie, too? So what. Really. So what.

Seriously. This exact same debate gets started up every few days, and everyone acts as if its a new thing. Its not. Let me summarize how this debate will go:

Those arguing for the removal/reduction of ship buffs IN RED.
Those arguing against the removal/reduction of ship buffs IN GREEN.

Ship buffs suck, they're OP!
No, they are fine. TR/gear/ther buffs/twink builds/game knowledge far outweigh Ship Buffs.
<Tangental argument about how each of those things should be nerfed too>
Ship buffs let ppl skate through content.
People ALREADY skate through that same content.
<Additional tangental argument about nerfing everything and making the game harder 'like the good old days'>
Ship buffs = newbies dont learn.
Those same newbies are already getting lumped into quests with uber-twinked 10-time TRs who slaughter everything, and the newbies dont learn anyway.
<New (new in this thread, not on the forums) tangental argument about elitist zerging jerks>
<Much neg-repping occurs, mods step in and clean up thread, debate continues>
Everyone has access to ship buffs, not just the guilds who own them.
So what? Everyone has access to the spells and abilities their party members could cast.
If you dont want to use ship buffs, dont.
Ship buffs create an imbalance of power in quests, forcing devs to create harder content in order to maintain the balance, accounting for ship buffs.
There is no evidence to support these accusations. New content is almost ALWAYS harder than old content of the same level, to account for increases in player skill and knowledge, as well as a variety of other environmental factors -- wait, didnt you just say the game was too easy?
<Additional tangental argument about nerfing everything>
Ship buffs are OP!
NO they arent!
YES THEY ARE!!
NO THEYRE NOT!!!
UH HUH!!!
NUH UH!!!
<This thread has been closed>

I think this pretty well sums up the gist of the way this argument will go, based on how it has gone EVERY SINGLE TIME thus far. I have deliberately skipped a few of the more minor squabbling points in order to allow others to bring them up as usual.

Oh and IBTL.

Krago
06-16-2011, 02:50 PM
The only way that will effect you is in a 10% xp loss because any good player can compensate for the bad player.

. . .

Yes, I was just being a pain to point out how it will affect my gameplay by providing a crutch to a much expanded new player base.

Most people will use ship buffs when laying out their toon builds. But granted, most builds try to be min/max styles showing theoretical highs.

Who wouldnt go grab a +1 to DCs that took only 20 seconds to use an altar? Overpowerd? I dont know, but I know its equivalent to a +1 caster lvl.

Its tough to think that no one elses gameplay actions affects mine because their actions do directly/indirectly affect mine.
- Quest changes because of some exploit
- Class changes based on character builds
- etc.

Bilger
06-16-2011, 02:59 PM
Yes, I was just being a pain to point out how it will affect my gameplay by providing a crutch to a much expanded new player base.

Most people will use ship buffs when laying out their toon builds. But granted, most builds try to be min/max styles showing theoretical highs.

Who wouldnt go grab a +1 to DCs that took only 20 seconds to use an altar? Overpowerd? I dont know, but I know its equivalent to a +1 caster lvl.

Its tough to think that no one elses gameplay actions affects mine because their actions do directly/indirectly affect mine.
- Quest changes because of some exploit
- Class changes based on character builds
- etc.

HUH? This list started has to do with what?

How does someone elses build plan affect you because of ship buffs?

Where are you going with this?

So ship buffs affect class changes and quest changes seriously what are ya trying to argue I am seriously trying to get your pont but ya lost me at what it possibly could be.

How is ship buffs involved?

Krago
06-16-2011, 03:07 PM
Just trying to iterate that other peoples play styles will affect how we play. If their playstyle is to grab all ship buffs breeze through all quests, especially solo, then some "balancing" is bound to happen. Or if their playstyle is to use some exploit, some "balancing" is bound to happen. Which affects everyone, even those who do not use those playstyles.

Casters are enjoying a renewed ruling of the roost with the lastest change to epics.

I think those of us who would like to see the shrines changed are hoping that the game adds back in some challenge.

Postumus
06-16-2011, 03:12 PM
It's not a matter of how people play it's a matter of balance.

Another solution would be to limit the level of resists by the level of the alt. Not sure how the coding would work.

I like this idea. It's silly that a new character can basically be invulnerable to any elemental damage until level 10.

Postumus
06-16-2011, 03:16 PM
Make them not stackable as well. 20 point house P buffs + 30 points of ship buffs...

Casters? What casters?

Oh yeah you mean those guys that cast hold which makes the melee more dangerous once in a while.

Wow those stack with the House P buffs?

I had no idea. That's crazy. They don't stack with resists cast by other players do they?

English_Warrior
06-16-2011, 05:05 PM
Here's the thing:

Almost everything in this game (and most rpgs/mmos) is scaled to level.

Gear has minimum levels...spells have minimum levels and then scale to level, hps scale to level, sp scale to level, post/scrolls/wands scale to level, feats scale to level, TRs can only use gear allowed by their level, house buffs are effectively scaled by having a favor requirement...etc etc etc

The reasons for this are obvious...firstly it provides a more balanced challenge to the game, secondly it rewards level advancement with better gear.

Before the guild ships resists went something like this:

Levels 1-5 10 point resists
Levels 6-10 20 point resists
Levels 11-20 30 point resists

Now everyone has access to a blanket 30 point elemental resist...no problem for anyone over level 10, thats perfectly fine and balanced for level....but now the 6-10 crowd have 50% more elemental resist...and the 1-5 toons have 3 times the elemental resist that is appropriate for their level bracket.

Its completely ridiculous...and its very easily fixed...scale the resist shrines to toon level (with guild level restrictions thrown in for 3 tiers)...the convenience is maintained, the earned guild benefit is maintained....and the whole thing is back to being balanced to level and in the form it really should have been implemented in...... Its win win.

Example: Have 3 different shrines that you unlock as you level up your guild....and just put a min toon level in place for each shrine...job done. (it also has the benefit of reducing the number of resist shrines...and so speeds up ship buffing time...instaed of running to 5 different shrines taht give you blanket 30 resists...now you just run to the 1 shrine that is appropriate for your level and get all 5 buffs at once).

Sure, its not anywhere near the most important thing for the devs to do...but its something they should think about.

varusso
06-16-2011, 05:21 PM
Have 3 different shrines that you unlock as you level up your guild....and just put a min toon level in place for each shrine...job done. (it also has the benefit of reducing the number of resist shrines...and so speeds up ship buffing time...instaed of running to 5 different shrines taht give you blanket 30 resists...now you just run to the 1 shrine that is appropriate for your level and get all 5 buffs at once).

Sure, its not anywhere near the most important thing for the devs to do...but its something they should think about.

I might be able to get behind this. It gives a benefit of freeing up 2 slots on the ship and speeds up the buffing process, so it doesnt JUST TAKE from the guilds that have earned it. It also allows for scaling according to lvl (which was not the part I was ever actually objecting to). Its a fair compromise in my book. I would have to think this one over, but +1 for now :D

Stergan
06-16-2011, 06:13 PM
I guess my problem with this is that nobody in favor of nerfing ship buffs has given a good reason as to why they care. I admit that having the resists at lvl 1 is overpowered, but if you don't want to play that way, don't. Nobody is making you get the resists.
If you want the game to be harder start a static group that only equips/uses items found in chests and spells your party can cast. Or better yet, join a perma-death guild.

Why do you care that I can stroll threw low lvl quests?

I want to understand your argument, but all i hear is "it's op, nerf it!" Please tell me why it matters that its overpowered. If I PUG a waterworks group on elite at lvl 4, and everyone except me dies because i have resists, and we get the completion why do you care? Its not fun to fail, its fun to WIN.

It sounds to me like you have a problem with the overall power lvl of things in the game at low levels.

Every MMO has a power creep as it ages, DDO is no exception.

English_Warrior
06-16-2011, 06:28 PM
I guess my problem with this is that nobody in favor of nerfing ship buffs has given a good reason as to why they care. I admit that having the resists at lvl 1 is overpowered, but if you don't want to play that way, don't. Nobody is making you get the resists.
If you want the game to be harder start a static group that only equips/uses items found in chests and spells your party can cast. Or better yet, join a perma-death guild.

Why do you care that I can stroll threw low lvl quests?

I want to understand your argument, but all i hear is "it's op, nerf it!" Please tell me why it matters that its overpowered. If I PUG a waterworks group on elite at lvl 4, and everyone except me dies because i have resists, and we get the completion why do you care? Its not fun to fail, its fun to WIN.

It sounds to me like you have a problem with the overall power lvl of things in the game at low levels.

Every MMO has a power creep as it ages, DDO is no exception.

Why do I care about an obvious problem with the game balance?

Because these things all add up...and if we take the view that it doesn't matter about game balance and the devs start ignoring problems, then pretty soon the game becomes a joke.

Why bother to fix a bug that allows a certain class to 1-shot raid bosses...its just part of power creep, the game is already unbalanced let people do what they like....why spoil their fun? Faster, easier completions are better right?

The devs use their nerf stick liberally almost every update...they care about their game...so should we.

Rakian_Knight
06-16-2011, 06:35 PM
I guess my problem with this is that nobody in favor of nerfing ship buffs has given a good reason as to why they care. I admit that having the resists at lvl 1 is overpowered, but if you don't want to play that way, don't. Nobody is making you get the resists.
If you want the game to be harder start a static group that only equips/uses items found in chests and spells your party can cast. Or better yet, join a perma-death guild.

Why do you care that I can stroll threw low lvl quests?

I want to understand your argument, but all i hear is "it's op, nerf it!" Please tell me why it matters that its overpowered. If I PUG a waterworks group on elite at lvl 4, and everyone except me dies because i have resists, and we get the completion why do you care? Its not fun to fail, its fun to WIN.

It sounds to me like you have a problem with the overall power lvl of things in the game at low levels.

Every MMO has a power creep as it ages, DDO is no exception.

Ok, let me point out an clear fact that everyone who is for keeping them the way they are doesn't seem to realize.

*takes a deep breath*

!!!!!THEIR IS MORE THEN HIGH LEVEL CONTENT TO THE GAME!!!!!

*takes a deep breath*

That is all.

varusso
06-16-2011, 06:45 PM
Ok, let me point out an clear fact that everyone who is for keeping them the way they are doesn't seem to realize.

*takes a deep breath*

!!!!!THEIR IS MORE THEN HIGH LEVEL CONTENT TO THE GAME!!!!!

*takes a deep breath*

That is all.

And the low lvl content is already trivial. It was trivial the second day I played. Ship buffs did not trivialize it. The other toys we can get in the game did far more to trivialize the low lvl content than ship buffs. Did i mention it was already trivial after just 2 days?

KillEveryone
06-16-2011, 08:12 PM
Low level content is already trivial.

Harbor is trivial. There are only a handful of quests in each range that actually challenge a at level group. The rest of the stuff is rather easy to deal with and you don't have to be twinked.

Taking away something from a group of people that worked for those items really isn't a good way to go about making things more difficult.

Even still, we have twinking. So you want others to have a challenge, what is your next request going to be? Remove the ability to twink? You going to ask for a higher min level for haste pots? You can't get any +4 item till higher than the level you can start using stat pots. You going to ask for that to be a higher min level also? How about all the house P/J buffs. Those are a nice boon and it doesn't take much to get those at a low level. If someone really wanted to, they could forgo taking levels, get the favor, then use those buffs.

If you don't want to use the ship buffs, don't use the ship buffs.

mystafyi
06-16-2011, 08:30 PM
You can't get any +4 item till higher than the level you can start using stat pots.

i have quite a few +4 stat rings no ML from assault on stormreach end reward.

Stergan
06-16-2011, 08:46 PM
Why do I care about an obvious problem with the game balance?

Because these things all add up...and if we take the view that it doesn't matter about game balance and the devs start ignoring problems, then pretty soon the game becomes a joke.

Why bother to fix a bug that allows a certain class to 1-shot raid bosses...its just part of power creep, the game is already unbalanced let people do what they like....why spoil their fun? Faster, easier completions are better right?

The devs use their nerf stick liberally almost every update...they care about their game...so should we.

Thanks for your honest response.

I suppose the underlining issue we differ on is that I don't think that the buffs "break" the game in the same fashion as old ToD or the Ice sorc PRE. As many have stated, TR's trivialize the low lvl quests much more than ship buffs.
While I do love this game, and hope the devs do their best to make it fair for all classes/players, I think that there are many many more issues that impact the game in a more significant manor to worry about this. If I were to fly my flag for change, I would advocate for a revamp to AC, or to introduce the still unused PRE's. I just think the dev's time is better spent on other things.

dozkal-mo
06-16-2011, 09:09 PM
Look, in order to get those buffs, you have to be part of a large/successful guild. In order to join such a guild, you also need to be successful yourself (as in, already experienced these quests). If you're going to run these quests more and more (new toons, TRs, w/e), then why should it be made to take just as long as previous toons?

Honestly, I think your explanation of "unfair advantage" is one of the most ridiculous reasons I've heard used for this. The game isn't built around PvP nor do the buffs give *anyone* a step up in the loot tables. If anything, the unfair advantage *might* be used as an argument for our enemies, who cares what they think? We're going to kill them anyway. Besides, have you taken these buffs into Epic? They're really not *that* useful there.

The worst thing that could happen is that it makes players lazy and that they forget about the increased damage if they die during a quest and then keep dying. That's their problem.

These buffs let me solo a quest when no one in my guild is available or I can't/won't PUG. They also make leveling simpler for those that I think have earned the right to do it. And, if this player somehow got into a guild with these buffs who also never really experienced the game properly, then that will make them a weaker player for it.

/not signed

Rakian_Knight
06-16-2011, 09:13 PM
Low level content is already trivial.

Harbor is trivial. There are only a handful of quests in each range that actually challenge a at level group. The rest of the stuff is rather easy to deal with and you don't have to be twinked.

Taking away something from a group of people that worked for those items really isn't a good way to go about making things more difficult.

Even still, we have twinking. So you want others to have a challenge, what is your next request going to be? Remove the ability to twink? You going to ask for a higher min level for haste pots? You can't get any +4 item till higher than the level you can start using stat pots. You going to ask for that to be a higher min level also? How about all the house P/J buffs. Those are a nice boon and it doesn't take much to get those at a low level. If someone really wanted to, they could forgo taking levels, get the favor, then use those buffs.

If you don't want to use the ship buffs, don't use the ship buffs.

1) I personally don't twink my characters, but that's a personal choice that I don't want to throw down people's throat. I like building characters that everyone says "Can't work" or "you'll have to be carried through" and being the last one alive carrying their stones to the shrines. I've made a cleric, a rogue, and a wizard all with only 10 base con and ran everything from Korthos to Epics.

2) House P/J buffs are something you EARN on THAT characters not by simply knowing someone.

3) Potions and wands are part of smart playing that have their place. However you don't see resist 30 potions available to level 2 characters though do you? Why not? Is my body going to explode because it can't handle the magical properties being bestowed on me. All I'm doing is drinking a potion, its not like I'm trying to cast wail of the banshee. And lets add onto this, why not let the scroll have the caster level checks so that you can cast any scroll at any level with a caster level check?

Imagine if every buff was like ship buffs and didn't go away when you entered quest. From a role playing perspective it makes since, how long did it take to get into the quest? But you don't see people asking for stuff like that when really what is the difference? Imagine the lower level content if every low level character was buffed like they were ready to go into VoD or Hound. Would you say something then?

All these things are set the way they are to prevent things like what the resist shrines do. Would you agree to all these changes as well?

/rant off

KillEveryone
06-16-2011, 10:37 PM
1) I personally don't twink my characters, but that's a personal choice that I don't want to throw down people's throat. I like building characters that everyone says "Can't work" or "you'll have to be carried through" and being the last one alive carrying their stones to the shrines. I've made a cleric, a rogue, and a wizard all with only 10 base con and ran everything from Korthos to Epics.

2) House P/J buffs are something you EARN on THAT characters not by simply knowing someone.

3) Potions and wands are part of smart playing that have their place. However you don't see resist 30 potions available to level 2 characters though do you? Why not? Is my body going to explode because it can't handle the magical properties being bestowed on me. All I'm doing is drinking a potion, its not like I'm trying to cast wail of the banshee. And lets add onto this, why not let the scroll have the caster level checks so that you can cast any scroll at any level with a caster level check?

Imagine if every buff was like ship buffs and didn't go away when you entered quest. From a role playing perspective it makes since, how long did it take to get into the quest? But you don't see people asking for stuff like that when really what is the difference? Imagine the lower level content if every low level character was buffed like they were ready to go into VoD or Hound. Would you say something then?

All these things are set the way they are to prevent things like what the resist shrines do. Would you agree to all these changes as well?

/rant off

You don't twink and you don't want to push that on other people yet you feel that the ship resist shrines are fair game to push onto people.

You feel that wands have their place when they add quite a bit for the level of content yet you don't feel that resist shrines should be allowed.

You are not being very consistent.

I also don't role play. It does bug me that when I enter DQ, my power word kill timer and any debuff that I have will still be going but my buffs from that area disappear. This isn't right either.

Even if I did role play, why should my buffs disappear when I enter a door? This does not make sense. If I'm in an explorer area and I have 10 minutes on a greater heroism, it should still be there for 10 minutes into the quest but because I walked through a doorway, my buffs disappear.

Glad you don't twink your toons. You also don't have to use ship buffs if you feel it unbalances your game.

Kushiel
06-16-2011, 10:38 PM
Throughout civilized cultures recorded histories business, experimentation, productivity, and wealth have frequently been applied towards making various advancements through:

Time Savings
Effort Reductions
Improved Survivability

What we can get, but do not have to take, from the available ship buffs are beneficial augmentations (of limited duration) that directly affect those categories.

Having access to them (by right of guild membership, personal gain, or invitation) makes certain portions of a journey potentially less deadly. They are not a God Mode. Things can - and all too often do - still go incredibly wrong. An individuals death in the course of a mission, if it happens, strips away all those benefits for the duration of that mission (if they don't recall and try to re-buff and enter again in 5min).

I wonder what, if any, link there could be made between people who hold the ship buffs in such great abhorance - with the self-same folks being the ones who *demand* that Bards/Sorc/Wiz (under threat of ridicule, ostracization, vulgarities for non-compliance) must Must MUST add to their casting abilities Haste and Rage as soon as Deities Ever-Frelling-Loving Possible!?

Why are Haste and Rage (Blur/Displacement) so readily *demanded* by that portion of a population? Could it be that they beneficially add to:

Time Savings
Effort Reductions
Improved Survivability

Rakian_Knight
06-16-2011, 11:30 PM
You don't twink and you don't want to push that on other people yet you feel that the ship resist shrines are fair game to push onto people.

You feel that wands have their place when they add quite a bit for the level of content yet you don't feel that resist shrines should be allowed.

You are not being very consistent.

I also don't role play. It does bug me that when I enter DQ, my power word kill timer and any debuff that I have will still be going but my buffs from that area disappear. This isn't right either.

Even if I did role play, why should my buffs disappear when I enter a door? This does not make sense. If I'm in an explorer area and I have 10 minutes on a greater heroism, it should still be there for 10 minutes into the quest but because I walked through a doorway, my buffs disappear.

Glad you don't twink your toons. You also don't have to use ship buffs if you feel it unbalances your game.

How am I not being very consistent? Potions and Wands have min. levels that make them balanced, my main issue is the whole getting a level 11 spell at level 2. Wands of resist energy start at level three, then level seven, and level eleven. You can only use the level three wand at low levels until you get to seven then eleven. Potions are the same way.

My main problems with it are that they are nothing at high levels, but over-powered at low levels and the suggestions I made focused on that. The ship buffs should be a bonus at all levels and shouldn't be the basic immunity that they are.


I have to agree with the OP on this one. The rest of the ship buffs are slight bonuses provide small bonuses but none of them other then the resistance shrines are basically handing out caster level 30 extended buffs. Even some nice solutions have been made that would be better for both low level and high level play.

Scale with level
Since they are basically the spell have them be like a spell of that character's level with an hour duration. Basically if your character is levels 1-5 10 points, 6-10 20 points, and 11-20 30 points having the cap for lesser, normal, and greater shrines being the 10-20-30 points.

Artifact Bonus
Like most of the other shrines have the resistance shrine act as a small artifact bonus. The numbers could be debated however something as simple as 5-10-15 would be interesting. That would allow both low levels that have a caster with resist get up to 25 points but only if someone buffs them with the spell by casting it or by potions. Other then that they have a small 15 at cap bonus. This also allows higher level character to have a 45 point resistance buff instead of the 30 points now so it would be a bonus at low and high level other then the kind AMAZINGLY POWERFUL at low levels and meh at high levels.

Elemental Negation
Basically this would be something that would remove a percent of the elemental damage. This would be a huge bonus at higher levels for people who don't have greensteel items crafted and still a nice bonus at low levels without taking the complete chance of failure out. Having the bonuses being something like 5%-15%-25% would be what I would imagine the numbers being but I'm not a cruncher so I don't know how much this would effect things. Basically at high levels, I'd be taking a quarter of the elemental damage out of attacks of the element until you died then you would be back to the 30 points.

Just my thoughts
~Rakian_Knight

KillEveryone
06-16-2011, 11:34 PM
How am I not being very consistent? Potions and Wands have min. levels that make them balanced, my main issue is the whole getting a level 11 spell at level 2. Wands of resist energy start at level three, then level seven, and level eleven. You can only use the level three wand at low levels until you get to seven then eleven. Potions are the same way.

My main problems with it are that they are nothing at high levels, but over-powered at low levels and the suggestions I made focused on that. The ship buffs should be a bonus at all levels and shouldn't be the basic immunity that they are.

You still haven't made a good case for how it is effecting YOUR game.

It doesn't bother MY game.

If you don't want to use ship buffs, don't use them.

You haven't made a good case why they should scale to fit your view.

YOU just don't have to use them. Simple fix and doesn't take any dev time.

TheDearLeader
06-16-2011, 11:35 PM
Guild buffs are a perk to those who have earned the renown to possess them, and maintain the renown to bypass the decay that would then make the buffs unusable.

If you don't like them, you're free to not use them.

Lithic
06-16-2011, 11:52 PM
As someone with all the usefull buffs already on my ship, I'd say make all the buff shrines min lvl 20 (except the XP one of course). That way they won't trivialize the lowbie content even more, and they will still be available for the end game. It already seems like the buffs assumed end game play anyway, considering they give buffs on par with very high level spells or items.

NaturalHazard
06-17-2011, 12:22 AM
this is not moaning, its a request to balance the game more. balance is good, i wouldnt have thought anyone would disagree

what is this balance thing you talk of? i thought it was some kind of myth? :D

NaturalHazard
06-17-2011, 12:25 AM
You still haven't made a good case for how it is effecting YOUR game.

It doesn't bother MY game.

If you don't want to use ship buffs, don't use them.

You haven't made a good case why they should scale to fit your view.

YOU just don't have to use them. Simple fix and doesn't take any dev time.

yes but he also doesnt want anyone else to be able to use them. well untill they reach a charactor level that he deems it to be ok to use it.

Thucydides04
06-17-2011, 12:32 AM
As far as I'm concerned they can remove the ships altogether.

I don't use ship buffs as I didn't have them before and to me it's a pain to run to the ship and get rebuffed or hold up a group while I am getting buffed.

I am with you on this.... ship buffs have become the bane of my existence. They are unnecessary and interupr grinding. I don't even bother with the xp shrine except when I login. The ship is a nice place to park mules and for transport though.

ahpook
06-17-2011, 12:57 AM
I am ok with taking them away but they will need to replace them with something else for all those who "earned" them.

I would prefer that they just swap them to +3/+6/+9 buffs that stack. This will reduce the "over powered" factor at low level and make them useful to everyone else who can cast +30 resists.

Taters214
06-17-2011, 04:40 AM
Guilds who worked hard for their buffs shouldn't have them nerfed just because some people either don't have access to the same buffs or feel that they are overpowered. They are a perk that was EARNED and should not be taken away.

Otherwise, this is a slippery slope and would lead to other issues. The fact is that no one is on level footing in this game: depending on your race, class, access to tomes, plat, and other goodies, if you're a TR, if you have all the adventure packs, and other things will determine how balanced the game is for your with respect to other players. Arguing the way of "balance" in the game is just silly. It's not balanced to me that TR's run around with all this gs stuff that my new alt doesn't have, but they earned it, and so I must earn it, too.

~jradnut
06-17-2011, 05:06 AM
I tend to agree with you about balance. But also think that the ability to overcome game challenges is learned at lower levels and if your new person had access to hi level resists, would also become dependant on same. We learned, they can too.

So, while I agree that balance is cewlness, and I like the scaling idea, I also think that maybe snowy side Korthos possibly be restricted to 1st characters and only accounts that have completed story arc there be allowed access to Stormreach. Or something along those lines, idk, just thunkin...

EvilI
06-17-2011, 05:08 AM
What is peoples problems with having a balanced gameplay? It's not like the resistane shrines were allways there, or ar in any way a god-given right to the DDO-community. They were a perk implemented by game-designers in an attempt to make people spend more money on their product, and for low-level content they are ridiculous. Good suggestions have been made as to fixing this without removing that perk alltogether.

Gkar
06-17-2011, 05:31 AM
i have quite a few +4 stat rings no ML from assault on stormreach end reward.

Yes, those new items are pretty clearly OP and shouldn't have been added to the game.

EustaceTrevelyan
06-17-2011, 05:48 AM
I understand the basic concept, but really, it's a convenience more than anything. You can get resist 20 pots, if you're not an arcane/cleric/rgr/UMD and can cast/wand em yourself.

The low level content is so laughably easy for anyone who's done it a few times, even without twink gear. With it, you can power through the stuff you've done 900 times and get to the more challenging stuff, reducing boredom.

As for the total newbie, if there are high-level guilds recruiting people who haven't yet left korthos, well more power to them, but i'm not sure most total newcomers to the game are even up on the existance of guilds.


I understand not liking easy buttons, but really, gameplay and build quality trump that stuff anyway.

Also, not all guilds fit resists; we have a ship of a size that could fit them all in, after the other guild buffs, but it was decided that we should have a tavern, bank, mail, etc. All we have is fire, and I wish we had lightning, lol:)

varusso
06-17-2011, 09:08 AM
What is peoples problems with having a balanced gameplay? It's not like the resistane shrines were allways there, or ar in any way a god-given right to the DDO-community. They were a perk implemented by game-designers in an attempt to make people spend more money on their product, and for low-level content they are ridiculous. Good suggestions have been made as to fixing this without removing that perk alltogether.

Other than the fact that there is no such thing as balance? Trying to 'balance' the game is trying to hit a moving target with one eye closed and a broken trigger finger. There are simply too many variables to achieve REAL balance. And if you should ever happen to actually make it there, you would never be able to make any updates to the game from then on.

This isnt about balance. Its about one player trying to dictate what another is entitled to have.
"When I was a newbie, we didnt have these ship buffs, and we LEARNED the game, by god!!"
And? When I was a newbie, we didnt have Cannith Crafting. When Bob was a newbie, we didnt have TRs. When Joe was a newbie, we didnt have GS. Using the argument that something didnt used to exist as justification for removing or nerfing it is just silly. It DOES exist NOW.

Here is the crux of the matter. The two main arguments are:
(1) Ship buffs cause an imbalance of new toon/player power vs. the quests.
To some extent, yes. In reality, it only further widens a gap that already existed. As has been stated many MANY MANY times, there are other factors that contribute to this WAY more, such as TR, twink gear, player skill and game knowledge/spoiler sites such as ddowiki. None of these thigns are going away, and you will get lynched for the mere suggestion of it. Ship buffs are here, they are staying, and they are NOT the straw that broke the camel's back. It was broken long before they arrived.
(2) Ship buffs offer an unfair advantage because individual toons did not earn them, yet have access to them.
This is a red herring. First of all, my individual newbie toons may not have earned them, but my capped toons that have been in the guild since it was founded *DID* earn them -- in the same manner that they earned the abashai set all of my alts run around in while leveling. Whats more, the point of guilds is to pool your resources and work toward a common goal -- such as ships and buffs. There are free versions of each ship and buff. Claiming that they were added JUST for a sales boost is ridiculous. They were added as an incentive for players to get in guilds, meet people, and work together -- and to help sales. AS A GROUP, my guild has earned these toys, and we have the right to play with our toys. We also have the right to share these toys with anyone we choose -- or not share them. Everyone else has the right to NOT use our toys as they see fit. If this causes some some sort of playstyle conflict, then you can go your way, and we can go ours.

If you believe that you should only be able to use the things which you personally have earned, that is perfectly fine. There are LOTS of other players out there who feel the same way. Hook up with a permadeath or hardcore guild. Its fun in a different sort of way from the normal game. It definitely adds a measure of challenge and danger back into the game. But not everyone in the game wants to log in and 'work' their way through the game. Quit trying to take away the toys that others like to play with just because you think they should not be allowed to have them. Thats really the bottom line.

Now yes there ARE some good compromises offered in the thread (mostly the same ones that always surface). However, that implies that there NEEDS to be a compromise or change, and that is simply not the case. And a big chunk of the problem is that most of the so-called compromises only do one thing: take away or reduce the benefits of the ship buffs, without giving anything in return, other than the offer of <cough> "balance". Thats not a compromise. That is taking away something you dont want others to have, in exchange for giving you something you want (but will never actually get). The person giving up something hets nothing in return. You will ALWAYS get a fight on that.

Hendrik
06-17-2011, 09:21 AM
Be quiet Hen don't ruin House P buffs to:eek::D

Oops! Sorry!

:P

But these must be nerfed too! Way to overpowering. Not only that, those that have the P favor have access to them while those that do not have the P favor don't.

All about balance....

:rolleyes:

Gkar
06-17-2011, 09:28 AM
Oops! Sorry!

:P

But these must be nerfed too! Way to overpowering. Not only that, those that have the P favor have access to them while those that do not have the P favor don't.

All about balance....

:rolleyes:

You know I've been thinking...epic gear should be eliminated. I have very little epic gear and its really poor balance that when I go into an epic quest I'm so very underequipped next to the completly overpowered guys dressed all in purple gear. It's totally unfair and ruins game balance.

mystafyi
06-17-2011, 09:36 AM
ship buff resists at low levels trivializes korthos/harbor/marketplace quests.

I have no problem with the other buffs, just the resists being applied at lvl 1. if it was level 11 for 30's/lvl 7 for 20's/lvl 4 for 10's it would make life cheaper for newbies by not having to buy resist pots without erasing all challenge.

Hendrik
06-17-2011, 09:40 AM
You know I've been thinking...epic gear should be eliminated. I have very little epic gear and its really poor balance that when I go into an epic quest I'm so very underequipped next to the completly overpowered guys dressed all in purple gear. It's totally unfair and ruins game balance.

Hehe.

Oh, and Raid Loot, Guild Pots, rest of the Favor rewards and Unlocks.

What shall we balance next? FtP vs ViP? How unbalancing is that?!?!!?

BurnerD
06-17-2011, 09:47 AM
20 and 30 point resists for lowbies is not good for challenge.

Vets may just choose not to use them at low levels to maintain some challenge.

I do think the resists teach newer players some bad habits at lower levels. All those elemental attacks and traps they walk right through at low levels teach them a hard lesson when they get into the higher levels....

varusso
06-17-2011, 10:04 AM
ship buff resists at low levels trivializes korthos/harbor/marketplace quests.

I have no problem with the other buffs, just the resists being applied at lvl 1. if it was level 11 for 30's/lvl 7 for 20's/lvl 4 for 10's it would make life cheaper for newbies by not having to buy resist pots without erasing all challenge.

\/ this \/


And the low lvl content is already trivial. It was trivial the second day I played. Ship buffs did not trivialize it. The other toys we can get in the game did far more to trivialize the low lvl content than ship buffs. Did i mention it was already trivial after just 2 days?

Krago
06-17-2011, 11:28 AM
And the low lvl content is already trivial. It was trivial the second day I played. Ship buffs did not trivialize it. The other toys we can get in the game did far more to trivialize the low lvl content than ship buffs. Did i mention it was already trivial after just 2 days?

Really all content is trivial except a few raids and the occasional lag spike.


But to assume no one else's gameplay affects your own is like sticking your head in the sand.

If no one rolled those Crit dual wielding Rapier barbs, the enhancements probably would have lived longer but they are history.

Anyone remember the hayday of WoPs?

Paralyzing weapons that allowed autocrits?

Just because you do not do something doesnt mean its not imbalanced.

varusso
06-17-2011, 11:59 AM
Really all content is trivial except a few raids and the occasional lag spike.


But to assume no one else's gameplay affects your own is like sticking your head in the sand.

If no one rolled those Crit dual wielding Rapier barbs, the enhancements probably would have lived longer but they are history.

Anyone remember the hayday of WoPs?

Paralyzing weapons that allowed autocrits?

Just because you do not do something doesnt mean its not imbalanced.

I have played ALOT of MMOs, and I adopt the same playstyle in pretty much all of them. At first, I group alot. I learn what works and what is 'expected' of each class when in a group environment. I learn what to look for in terms of other players' playstyles, and which ones I want to avoid. As I progress, i tend to solo more. Mainly because I dont feel like debating what *I* want to do with my toon or in a quest, as opposed to what everyone else wants to do. When what I want matches what they want, groupaholic time. When it doesnt, I solo. I usually join a guild to have folks to chat with regularly (esp since I am soloing), ask questions and give advice, sometimes group with people from a pool of players I trust. I often go through several guilds before I finally settle on the one that has everything I am looking for.

Everyone has this exact same option -- the difference is that in all the other MMOs I have played, the majority of the dungeons and wilderness areas were NOT instanced, which meant that other players could freely influence my game, whether or not I wanted them to do so. In DDO, everything except events and public areas is instanced. No one can enter my instance unless I agree to let them. They cannot affect how I play unless I choose to let them (by accepting them into my group). All of the stellar things they are doing in THEIR groups doesnt change what I am doing in MINE unless I choose to join theirs. Someone else completing VON6 in 2 minutes doesnt change my experience. If I end up in a group with someone who doesnt want to play the same way i do, either of us can leave. Someone with 10-time TR and all the bells and whistles that come with that, with lvl 100 ships DO NOT affect my gameplay unless I want them to.

The ONLY way in which another player could affect my gameplay is if they found an exploit so bad that turbine was forced to change it. That is part of the normal tweak and balance system in any MMO. Ship buffs simply do not fall into this category. They are low man on the totem pole in terms of the power shift, as compared to SO many other things.

No one can change my game play experience unless I choose to let them. That includes allowing people to petition for nerfs/removals of things I use (or choose NOT to use) without opposing it.

Rakian_Knight
06-17-2011, 12:07 PM
You still haven't made a good case for how it is effecting YOUR game.

It doesn't bother MY game.

If you don't want to use ship buffs, don't use them.

You haven't made a good case why they should scale to fit your view.

YOU just don't have to use them. Simple fix and doesn't take any dev time.

I don't use them however that doesn't change the simple fact that they are ungodly powerful at low levels and nothing at high levels. I don't use the broken khopeshes either however if you ask people, a majority will argue that they are broken as well.

Does this effect YOUR game in the singular, no, and that would be fine if this was a game like Fable where you only played by yourself but this isn't. We could all simply play how we wanted but at the cost of something that is Dungeons and Dragons. DDO is an Massively Multiplayer Online Game with people from all over the world so answers like, it doesn't effect "MY" game don't cut it. Dungeons and Dragons is a social game that encourages players to challenge the DM when they make something too easy or too challenging. This time the DM is the Devs and the forums are the only way we can voice our thoughts about how the game should be.

The "I Earned This Arguments" don't hold water either because there are so many guilds that are the mass recruit guilds that are "supposed to be helping people learn the game" that introduce the new characters to these kind of shrines as soon as they enter the harbor. Also, the "Guild" earns the achievements, and it doesn't matter whether you were there when they did or didn't. You could of helped but you also could have been the leach that claims stuff is too hard and it needs nerfed because they can't beat it. I've recently seen post for stuff like "Nerf Sleeping Dust because I have a hard time not killing the spiders" that scream this kind of mentality. Is it directly related to the shrines, no, but these kind of easy buttons encourage these kind of players that got the locks out of Tear.

However this is me getting a little too preachy and off topic so I'm going to end with this. I don't think the resist shrines are implemented the best way that they could for both high and low level content. The scaling in level would balance the low level content without changing too much. Adding stacking resistance gives bonuses to all levels and bonuses to players that use it with smarter playing styles, like using wands, potions, or the spell itself. The percent bonus allows the shrines to become something powerful at lower levels but more useful at higher levels where the greensteel absorption items are popular. You can think of these as you want, they are my ideas and I'm trying to show you my point of view and see from your point of view.

~Rakian_Knight

steelblueskies
06-17-2011, 12:54 PM
Having committed more then half a million renown on one toon towards those buffs being available via guild level I'd say I earned their use.
Just like the stacking 6 resist all I will eventually earn through ranger past lives.
And the gear I can equip my tr/ alt with.

If I choose to utilize the rewards of my effort so be it.
If ubernooblar joins my guild and gets to use them at level one having contributed nothing as yet that too is a cost as it ups the guild accounts and the renown per day to prevent backslide.
If they don't begin to pull their weight or otherwise screw the team, they won't have access for long.
Not to mention the tp/ pp cost to maintain the shrines.

You are better off moaning over the imbalance of ship buffs being undispellable while normal cast buffs are.

TheDearLeader
06-17-2011, 01:02 PM
Having committed more then half a million renown on one toon towards those buffs...

I actually agree with you, but I just had to point something out.

Half a million differs from toon to toon, thanks to guild renown bonus.

I'm a lot more impressed with someone who has over 500k guild renown in a guild with, say, 100 accounts, than I am with somene who is in a guild with 5~7 accounts. After all, one of them has physically done about about 3.75 times as much footwork.

Krago
06-17-2011, 01:05 PM
*snip*
The ONLY way in which another player could affect my gameplay is if they found an exploit so bad that turbine was forced to change it. That is part of the normal tweak and balance system in any MMO. Ship buffs simply do not fall into this category. They are low man on the totem pole in terms of the power shift, as compared to SO many other things.

No one can change my game play experience unless I choose to let them. That includes allowing people to petition for nerfs/removals of things I use (or choose NOT to use) without opposing it.

Ship buffs are not an exploit, but it is an imbalance as you say that the OP was wanting addressed.

Your gameplay experience is how you view it yes, but the game mechanics are influenced by others, whether you part take of the mechanics or not.

TheDearLeader
06-17-2011, 01:07 PM
Ship buffs are not an exploit, but it is an imbalance as you say that the OP was wanting addressed.

Your gameplay experience is how you view it yes, but the game mechanics are influenced by others, whether you part take of the mechanics or not.

Not if you solo, they're not. Welcome to instance - based gameplay.

steelblueskies
06-17-2011, 01:43 PM
I actually agree with you, but I just had to point something out.

Half a million differs from toon to toon, thanks to guild renown bonus.

I'm a lot more impressed with someone who has over 500k guild renown in a guild with, say, 100 accounts, than I am with somene who is in a guild with 5~7 accounts. After all, one of them has physically done about about 3.75 times as much footwork.
accounts?
initially 70+. after leadership change down to the 60's, currently mid sixties still.

no renown bonus due to size during my career on my tr'ing main.

i just find it funny in general. i suppose the ranger stacking passive resists should scale by level as well for these people, even if they were earned through tr.

and guild augments for resists should scale somehow.

so many things these people forget about.
lowbie focused on it, with requisite past lives could wind up with 30 res all from ship buffs + 6 to four of those from 3 ranger past lives + 4 to all from large guild augment slot *5 . thats resists of 40/40/40/40/34.
as they level fvs, rogue, barbarian and possibly another class i can't recall atm, get inherent increased resists. the fvs's in 10 point increments every so many levels as feats, the rogue/barb as enhancements in smaller increments. not sure if the rogue/barb stacks.

at high levels it gets sillier. you can add ten to three resists from above for an fvs.

then add up to 15 more from greensteel exceptional resistance.

then add absorbs.

then buff the resist with appropriate savant for a greater then resist shrine amount.(+15)

so that 40/40/40/40/34 can get up around 40+15+10+15=80+absorb at a max for some toons and setups at high level, at least for a couple resistances.

no one does this typically.

ahpook
06-17-2011, 01:56 PM
\/ this \/
And the low lvl content is already trivial. It was trivial the second day I played. Ship buffs did not trivialize it. The other toys we can get in the game did far more to trivialize the low lvl content than ship buffs. Did i mention it was already trivial after just 2 days?

All content is trivial for those who have run the content a few times. The problem with the resist buffs is that they trivialize some content for people who have never run the content before.

Therefore V this V

I am ok with taking them away but they will need to replace them with something else for all those who "earned" them.

I would prefer that they just swap them to +3/+6/+9 buffs that stack. This will reduce the "over powered" factor at low level and make them useful to everyone else who can cast +30 resists.

varusso
06-17-2011, 02:09 PM
Ship buffs are not an exploit, but it is an imbalance as you say that the OP was wanting addressed.

Your gameplay experience is how you view it yes, but the game mechanics are influenced by others, whether you part take of the mechanics or not.

And as I said multiple times, ship buffs are the low man on the totem pole for what has created this 'imbalance'. Many things rank WAY above it. Things which have been cited multiple times. Things which keep getting ignored, except by the 'nerf everything' crowd. Until you remove all of THOSE things (which would be an incredibly stupid decision on Turbine's part) there is no point trying to 'create balance' by addressing the thing that does the LEAST to affect that balance.

If you put a 100lb weight, 3 200lb weights, 6 50lb weights and a single 5lb weight all on one end of a scale, then remove the 5lb weight, do you REALLY think you addressed the issue?

My game experience *IS* what I make of it, just like everyone else's is. You can choose to use or not use any of the power-boosting mods to the game, just as everyone else can. You can choose to play or not play with others who share the same sentiment. A powergamer and a casual gamer are unlikely to enjoy one another's company in a quest, and both will tend to naturally avoid one another. If you happen to end up in the same quest, you can choose to work together or you can drop group and go find a group more to each of your liking. People do this every single day. And I have never seen anyone in a group EVER complain about someone else having ship buffs -- other than waiting for them to get them, which is another debate entirely.

varusso
06-17-2011, 02:17 PM
All content is trivial for those who have run the content a few times. The problem with the resist buffs is that they trivialize some content for people who have never run the content before.



Read it again. It was day 2. As in second day I ever played DDO. As a F2P btw. Korthos gear on -- on a rogue iirc -- with a hireling following me around. Anything at-lvl on hard was not much of a challenge, elite was a bit too much without a group. This was WITHOUT the benefit of having done the quests multiple times, twink gear, 32 pt builds, vet status, large sums of cash, friends/guildies to call upon, benefit of spoiler sites (didnt know them yet) or GASP! ship buffs. Or even the AH. Only the things I had personally picked up.

That is a far cry from what I am today, or the folks who have been here since the servers opened. Half of them could probably fall asleep halfway through any of the korthos/harbor quests, and their toon would just go ahead and finish it for them, because THAT toon has seen them so many times. Even market quests to a large extent fit into this category. The challenging quests dont start showing up until p2p content and house quests (and raaids). Even THAT is subject to 'easy mode' depending on the player.

Ship buffs did not trivialize content that was not already trivial.

Now as for a REAL compromise, where players get something for what they give up, and one that WOULD address the buff power/lvl concern, I am leaning more and more toward this suggestion:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3864005#post3864005

Specifically the last paragraph in that post.

lethargos
06-17-2011, 02:31 PM
Make them not stackable as well. 20 point house P buffs + 30 points of ship buffs...

Casters? What casters?

Oh yeah you mean those guys that cast hold which makes the melee more dangerous once in a while.

Say what ? Whats this about stacking ?

TheDearLeader
06-17-2011, 03:01 PM
accounts?
initially 70+. after leadership change down to the 60's, currently mid sixties still.

no renown bonus due to size during my career on my tr'ing main.

Yeah, that's definitely the more impressive of the two situations I described. :) While I'm positive I have over 800k renown earned for EW, it's not all on one toon. Alt-itis, I guess.


i just find it funny in general. i suppose the ranger stacking passive resists should scale by level as well for these people, even if they were earned through tr.

and guild augments for resists should scale somehow.

so many things these people forget about.
lowbie focused on it, with requisite past lives could wind up with 30 res all from ship buffs + 6 to four of those from 3 ranger past lives + 4 to all from large guild augment slot *5 . thats resists of 40/40/40/40/34.
as they level fvs, rogue, barbarian and possibly another class i can't recall atm, get inherent increased resists. the fvs's in 10 point increments every so many levels as feats, the rogue/barb as enhancements in smaller increments. not sure if the rogue/barb stacks.

at high levels it gets sillier. you can add ten to three resists from above for an fvs.

then add up to 15 more from greensteel exceptional resistance.

then add absorbs.

then buff the resist with appropriate savant for a greater then resist shrine amount.(+15)

so that 40/40/40/40/34 can get up around 40+15+10+15=80+absorb at a max for some toons and setups at high level, at least for a couple resistances.

no one does this typically.

I think the class you're forgetting about is Monk - way of the tortoise, maybe? I dunno, one of them gives some passive resists.

But you're perfectly correct, as many others have been in this thread. If someone wants to get resists, they will get them. My Water Savant can get 68 resist while tanking the Shadows in ToD - and I'm not even pushing things to the limit.

Krago
06-17-2011, 03:06 PM
And as I said multiple times, *snip*

If you put a 100lb weight, 3 200lb weights, 6 50lb weights and a single 5lb weight all on one end of a scale, then remove the 5lb weight, do you REALLY think you addressed the issue?

*snip*


I agree with you that the resist shrine is not game breaking as you agree with me that is indeed an imbalance. I also agree that there are much bigger problems with the balance. Does the Resists need to be addressed yes. Does it have to happen in U10, no.

I think we seem to be differring on our definition of affect gameplay experience though. I am not saying that I enjoy the game any less with all of the changes that have occurred. I am stating that the changes have occurred because its has been proven that something needed to be changed because it was either too powerful, or too underpowered.

And I believe having +30 resist is too powerful at lvl 1, especially compared to the Resist energy spell where you have to wait till lvl 9/10 to achieve the same effect.

varusso
06-17-2011, 03:13 PM
I agree with you that the resist shrine is not game breaking as you agree with me that is indeed an imbalance. I also agree that there are much bigger problems with the balance. Does the Resists need to be addressed yes. Does it have to happen in U10, no.

I think we seem to be differring on our definition of affect gameplay experience though. I am not saying that I enjoy the game any less with all of the changes that have occurred. I am stating that the changes have occurred because its has been proven that something needed to be changed because it was either too powerful, or too underpowered.

And I believe having +30 resist is too powerful at lvl 1, especially compared to the Resist energy spell where you have to wait till lvl 9/10 to achieve the same effect.

I understand the thought process that leads to:
Newbie --> ship buffs --> moron in shroud
:D

And I wont dispute that that CAN happen. I just dont see it as the big doom and gloom prophecy it is being made out to be. I also wont support the universal nerfing of something so many people have worked toward, as a set goal (whether it were ship buffs, removing TRs, taking away twink gear or whatever) on the basis of what really is a minority problem. Those who dont like running with overpowered toons dont have to. The number of people who arrive at mid-end game as crippled morons because of ship buffs are significantly less than those who arrive there just because they are morons period -- it just takes the second group a little longer to arrive.

I still have to say that English Warrior has the best proposal I have seen thus far, and it has the most chance of gaining traction with both sides at the same time.

steelblueskies
06-17-2011, 03:30 PM
Hey if you want to make the argument for not earning the buffs for the ship, just change it so you cannot use the shrine unless your account renown contribution meets x% of some number needed to acquire the shrine in the first place.

Or make the rewarded resist buff scale down if you are under that x% contribution.
That'll stop the join high level guild to use their stuff bs and encourage people to earn it right?
And also cut out those annoying can I get an invite to use your altars?

And given anchor points are limited enough to restrict getting every resist and stat buff even on the best ships, noone will ever be able to get half from one ship and the other half from a second unless their account has too s in both with sufficient contribution.

And that would be a rough thing to hit and maintain .

varusso
06-17-2011, 03:40 PM
Hey if you want to make the argument for not earning the buffs for the ship, just change it so you cannot use the shrine unless your account renown contribution meets x% of some number needed to acquire the shrine in the first place.

Or make the rewarded resist buff scale down if you are under that x% contribution.
That'll stop the join high level guild to use their stuff bs and encourage people to earn it right?
And also cut out those annoying can I get an invite to use your altars?

And given anchor points are limited enough to restrict getting every resist and stat buff even on the best ships, noone will ever be able to get half from one ship and the other half from a second unless their account has too s in both with sufficient contribution.

And that would be a rough thing to hit and maintain .

No. If someone has proven themselves worthy of an invite, they are entitled to all our guild has to offer, or they wouldnt have BEEN invited to begin with. We are a club, not a fraternity. We dont do pledges. It would also screw my alts when they join up. *I* worked for the guild benefits, even if my new toon wasnt around yet. *I* worked for them to help my guildies and my future alts. It would also effectively kill the 'invite your group members' functionality, which turbine took pains to ensure we COULD do. It allows me to save SP on my toon, both in buffing myself, and in buffing others -- one of the few real benefits I get out of it after a certain level.

steelblueskies
06-17-2011, 04:47 PM
No. If someone has proven themselves worthy of an invite, they are entitled to all our guild has to offer, or they wouldnt have BEEN invited to begin with. We are a club, not a fraternity. We dont do pledges. It would also screw my alts when they join up. *I* worked for the guild benefits, even if my new toon wasnt around yet. *I* worked for them to help my guildies and my future alts. It would also effectively kill the 'invite your group members' functionality, which turbine took pains to ensure we COULD do. It allows me to save SP on my toon, both in buffing myself, and in buffing others -- one of the few real benefits I get out of it after a certain level.

Your Alts are all on separate ACCOUNTS?

Renown decay is by account as is guild size mod.

So eligibility per the proposal was by account not per toon.
Ie main in guild a earns full benefits via renown, then alt a-z have full benefit in that guild.
If alt a-z drop that guild or go to an alternate ship with no earnings they get reduced benefit on the alternate guild ship.

If you have toons in both guilds with sufficient renwon earnings then any of your toons on the same account could get full benefit at either, but not at a ship from a guild you have no toons in or earnings with.

Granted the entire idea works better when renown sticks with you if you change guilds.

Shrugs.

Would take this over some craptastic downward scaling of resist shrines to a reward level equal to a shrine available 40 guild levels earlier.
Ten point shrines even if altered to a stacking 3 are still not the equal in guild level requirement, cost, or performance to a stacking 9 or 30 pointer.

Guess beyond the logic discrepancy, it's a matter of simple disagreement or preference.

Edit: suppose invites could use the earning level of the inviting account for rewards to invitee's but seems more like a loophole for those not contributing.
Again sticky issue all around.

varusso
06-17-2011, 05:00 PM
Your Alts are all on separate ACCOUNTS?



Yes some of my alts ARE on other accounts. P2P accounts I might add.

Hendrik
06-17-2011, 05:11 PM
Yeah, that's definitely the more impressive of the two situations I described. :) While I'm positive I have over 800k renown earned for EW, it's not all on one toon. Alt-itis, I guess.



I think the class you're forgetting about is Monk - way of the tortoise, maybe? I dunno, one of them gives some passive resists.

But you're perfectly correct, as many others have been in this thread. If someone wants to get resists, they will get them. My Water Savant can get 68 resist while tanking the Shadows in ToD - and I'm not even pushing things to the limit.

Monks with GS and Enhancements, before ANY buff, can get a 53. That is just standing there - for ALL elements but Sonic.

Ungood
06-17-2011, 05:12 PM
As a member of a high level guild, i feel like that of all the ship buffs, which give +1 here or +2 there, resistances are by far the most inbalanced. A 2 stat points or 1 ac is acceptable, but automatic 30 pts of resistance from level 1 seems like a clear and unfair advantage that people in big guilds have.

Ex:
John is a newb. He goes into korthos and he is having a lot of fun! but woe betide him if he cant kill the kobold shamans fast enough on hard, or the scorching rays will get im and his party, and they do sometimes. Not to mention those high damage lightning bolts in elites!

I am part of a high level guild. I may or may not have just joined it 2 days ago and made and alt. I dont care about scorching rays, because i have 30 guild fire resistance. I dont worry very much about lightning bolts, because i have 30 guild electric resistance. When i group with people like john, i notice now much things like scorching ray chip away at their hp bar, and then remember that oh, these things do a lot of damage to them, and then try to snipe shamans.

I believe the premise here is that, if you are in a high level guild, you do not care much about Krothos either, as your guild should (would) provide you far better gear (or your alt for that matter) thus, a vet is not in the game to experience the trial and tribulation of being new (unless they want to impose such a situation upon themselves) as that would defeat the point of being a vet in the first place.

And while anyone could be a member of a high level guild, the higher level guilds are typically looking for higher level players, again, who would not be into making Krothos a trial (unless they weer doing it for the fun of it)

The method is about the dynamic of who would be in what level guild. IE: High level guilds typically have (or seek) high level (more active) players, who are looking to burn the low levels and get to the high level game if they made alts or TRed.

Lower level guilds are in for the new members and thus offer buffs in that range and fair dynamic.

So in that front, unless there is a epidemic of new fresh out of the generator new players getting invited into high level guilds, I believe that it has no impact on the learning curve or balance of the game.

Hendrik
06-17-2011, 05:16 PM
As someone with all the usefull buffs already on my ship, I'd say make all the buff shrines min lvl 20 (except the XP one of course). That way they won't trivialize the lowbie content even more, and they will still be available for the end game. It already seems like the buffs assumed end game play anyway, considering they give buffs on par with very high level spells or items.

If you change Ships to 20, what do you suggest to change the House P favor reward too? Still have to deal with making lowbie content trivial with P buffs.

Same with Pots.

Changing them to 20 negates any use for resist shrines on ships. Why waste a slot and large plat investment if you can go pick em up for free or minimal charge?

Hendrik
06-17-2011, 05:19 PM
Finally OP;

If you do not want to use the 20 resists, then don't!

ONLY place the low level shrine for it.

Win-Win. You no longer have an easy mode for lower level content and yet, those Guilds that want the shine, can.

protokon
06-17-2011, 05:23 PM
I believe the premise here is that, if you are in a high level guild, you do not care much about Krothos either, as your guild should (would) provide you far better gear (or your alt for that matter) thus, a vet is not in the game to experience the trial and tribulation of being new (unless they want to impose such a situation upon themselves) as that would defeat the point of being a vet in the first place.

And while anyone could be a member of a high level guild, the higher level guilds are typically looking for higher level players, again, who would not be into making Krothos a trial (unless they weer doing it for the fun of it)

The method is about the dynamic of who would be in what level guild. IE: High level guilds typically have (or seek) high level (more active) players, who are looking to burn the low levels and get to the high level game if they made alts or TRed.

Lower level guilds are in for the new members and thus offer buffs in that range and fair dynamic.

So in that front, unless there is a epidemic of new fresh out of the generator new players getting invited into high level guilds, I believe that it has no impact on the learning curve or balance of the game.

high level guild =/= high caliber guild. there are *many* guilds that jumped on the guild renown farming bandwagon, and mass recruited members to gain as many levels as possible. the auto-recruit policy has lead to an inevitably terrible player base in those guilds, and only a *tiny* fraction said players will ever mosy into end-game content, and those that do will move on to more serious guilds.

This whole fiasco about the resistances is a tiny problem compared to TRs running around super-twinked out. The game gets easier with nicer things, thats just something you deal with.

fair? fair is a very hazy concept here. is it fair that TR's pimped out in greensteel can run over all content in the game, and those have-nots can only try to keep up in the wake of their killing spree?

you play the game, you get nice things that make the game easier. I'm all for making the game harder, but I really fail to see how getting rid of resistance shrines is going to accomplish that.

stille_nacht
06-17-2011, 05:37 PM
dangit, why are people still posting on this? i meant for it to be a small point about how guild resistances just seem to be be significantly stronger at lower level than pretty much everything else, i expected maybe 20 responses, and a 1-2 neg reps, but now this thing is dragging on forever... as is the neg rep farm

anyway, yeah, its not a major major super issue, i just thought id point out an early game inbalance.

varusso
06-17-2011, 05:40 PM
high level guild =/= high caliber guild. there are *many* guilds that jumped on the guild renown farming bandwagon, and mass recruited members to gain as many levels as possible. the auto-recruit policy has lead to an inevitably terrible player base in those guilds, and only a *tiny* fraction said players will ever mosy into end-game content, and those that do will move on to more serious guilds.


Most of the 'super-pug' guilds I have seen end up essentially the same way:

They recruit everything that moves, even right out of Korthos. Their ranks swell to epic proportions.....they quickly lose the small and medium guild bonuses....Large numbers of the nubs they recruited stop playing and fall by the wayside. Decay starts to really hurt. Guild institutes a time limit on inactivity and starts booting dead weight. A few players object and leave. Throughout the life of this guild, players leave constantly (not being hampered but such trivialities as loyalty) to join another guild with better stuff, more active members, better quality of players, or just cos. Guild eventually reaches stability with a core of active, high-lvl raid-tastic members and a few 'outer rings' of other members orbiting them. Guild is now high enough that they want to KEEP all their toys, so they only recruit dedicated, high-lvl players capable of raiding.

That or the guild falls apart and is whispered about only in vague forum posts that never quite mention their name.

I can think of one guild in particular on Argo that fits :D

varusso
06-17-2011, 05:44 PM
dangit, why are people still posting on this? i meant for it to be a small point about how guild resistances just seem to be be significantly stronger at lower level than pretty much everything else, i expected maybe 20 responses, and a 1-2 neg reps, but now this thing is dragging on forever... as is the neg rep farm

anyway, yeah, its not a major major super issue, i just thought id point out an early game inbalance.

So post a thread about how arcanes are overpowered vs melee.
Or a thread about how the guild renown system is broken.
Or how the F2P model saved/killed DDO.
Or some random thing that isnt like PNP and should be.
Or a rant about how easy the game is, and how everything should be made harder.

I would suggest a few more, but we already have current ones running :D

stille_nacht
06-17-2011, 06:02 PM
So post a thread about how arcanes are overpowered vs melee.
Or a thread about how the guild renown system is broken.
Or how the F2P model saved/killed DDO.
Or some random thing that isnt like PNP and should be.
Or a rant about how easy the game is, and how everything should be made harder.

I would suggest a few more, but we already have current ones running :D

i think i will! :P, im running periolously close to not max green bar atm

licho
06-17-2011, 06:33 PM
/not signed

Reasons:
1. They are more important issues, which i would prefer to be done first. (mentioned missing pres, or ranged combat are high on list)
2. One can choose how he play, nobody forbids LFM "no ship buffs, no TR, no alt support, no healer, have nuts".
3. "The Other People" always will find the way to show the jerkness. Knowing my luck i will always group with arcanes who denay casting resist on teammembers (self use only ;-) )
3.1 The nice people are always nice (well more or less) so if they use shipbuffs they will invite everyone who feel like need that.
4. Not everyone enjoys Harbour as he Should! Speeding it a little is what people like.
5. Less twinked, leveled, experienced players can use it to cover some lacks in harder quests. Not everyone use static group, and have perfect party.
6. There will never be balance. Becouse if to party of newcomers joins multi TR with named weapon, top stats bonuses, and drinking hastle pots as addicted... there is no chance for balance.

Note, maybe others newcomers have more luck, but im suprisngly wasnt invited to high level guild any time soon, so i still had a time to enjoy the harbour "of the ship".

Second note: its weird that the OP get neg rep. THis has a point.

steelblueskies
06-17-2011, 07:21 PM
I hate to say it but frankly multiple paid accounts with one human driver is the outlier not the norm.
I don't see any way to modify the system that won't either goof over the majority or the outliers at least comparative to the prior implementation.
Not if one were actually seeking to redress the imbalances perceived as prescient by the op.

But fair point nonetheless.

On the secondary point of greenis, given most don't use the rep system as intended anyway, you could always try posting in offtopic about kobolds and VoiceOvers or plushies. Seems a lot of support for those.

Then again simply pointing out the options menu item that enables overwriting a crafting prefix/suffix somehow got me at least one neg( although far more positives) so clearly it's a crapshoot requiring twitch skills for rep granting that some people obviously do not possess.
Therefore we need an easy button to balance rep granting.
/sarcasm off

varusso
06-17-2011, 07:46 PM
I hate to say it but frankly multiple paid accounts with one human driver is the outlier not the norm.
I don't see any way to modify the system that won't either goof over the majority or the outliers at least comparative to the prior implementation.
Not if one were actually seeking to redress the imbalances perceived as prescient by the op.

But fair point nonetheless.


I think there are more of us than you think there are :D
Just go check out the threads on how to dual log on the same computer. Not all have P2P on every account, of course.
I only noted they were both P2P to counter any argument they were just multiple f2p mule accounts -- they are not.

bigolbear
06-17-2011, 08:04 PM
have to say i agree.

i think ship bufs are fine in principle, but i find them rather un balancing at low lvls - it makes much content trivial.

i like the idea that ship buffs should scale with lvl, this would bring back the balance but still allow a significant bonus for people.

Personaly id also like ship buffs to be minimised to one buff icon and be permanent - not removed on death and you get them automaticaly on logging in. the thing i find the most annoying about ship buffs is the 'can i get a ship invite' every damn time some one joins a raid group. ameneties are great on airships but we could realy use a spirit binder one too, and having alters somewhere more convenient than in the shroud raid would be a good move. these should have been put in the 12 or meridia rather than or as well as airship points.

make the buffs stack with less things too, it should be a convenience not a power creep.

why so harsh?
ive found that ship bufs are negatively impacting peoples play style and making content easier. new people are learning bad habits due to ship buffs - most notably casters not packing resist energy.

steelblueskies
06-17-2011, 08:28 PM
Oh I know they exist.
At the very least elite openers for some pita chain endquests is common since turbine decided multiple logins from the same account is no go.

Just that the market majority may not even be premium on a single account, and alternates are far more likely to be mules and openers( with one maybe two packs each, from combined starter free tp and favor starter tp).
Breaks down like forumgoers versus players. One is a significantly smaller subset or the other.

Not to mention technical/computer skills needed, desire or use for multiboxing, requisite hardware.

Meh, losing track posting from iPod touch soo.. Tldr I agree they exist. I'd be one of the few myself if my main notebook hadn't died during an LCD inverter replacement earlier this year. I just know we aren't the main market for the game or the dominant party.

Edit: holy cow arcane or divine not taking resist energy and pugging? Really?
Was this a just not taking it until I get another spell slot or not taking it period?

Ungood
06-17-2011, 08:46 PM
is it fair that TR's pimped out in greensteel can run over all content in the game, and those have-nots can only try to keep up in the wake of their killing spree?

In this case the TR did earn all that gear and equipment as they leveled up (or even long after they made 20th they ground for gear) so, is it fair they have what they have? Yes.

Also, when you consider they had to give up a 20th level toon for (in some cases) something as nominal as 2 build points and a single past life feat, and in other cases, only a past life feat. (with the largest gain being a 28 point non-drow TRing gaining 6 build points, which, that is an up grade, but still only 2 points more then a fresh out of the generator 32 point build)

Is that fair? Well, yes. They have been here before, it honestly, should not be as much a trial to them at that point. It is a grind, something, I believe that many of them want to get over with, and back up to the higher levels. Which now for them takes a lot more exp to boot.

If they blow past a new player, that really should be as expected as that is still a player that has, if nothing else, made it to 20th at least once.

Lemanchot
07-15-2011, 05:54 AM
When I read op post at 1st ait sounds like an awsome idea.

Then I remember I enjoy games in a specific way. I like quick completions when I TR without any difficulties running through. Since I solo most q's from 1-5. I'd disagree with you. Also without mentionning the work And dedication it takes to be at a step with all shrines over a ship.

Something I don't get at all, why people still complain about usefull buff. If you have masochists thoughts it is actually YOUR thoughts not ours.

If you think it's unfair and want everybody to be equal in a peace world mixed up with fairy tales and carebears. I'd say live with your lovely bears while I ride through DDO with my big pimpin boat.

Fillivan
07-15-2011, 10:02 AM
I understand your idea and I like it... resists SHOULD be scaled to lvl. What is my reasoning?

Following scenarios:

1. IdiotZerger1 from the guild WeHaz30ResistShrines joins the party for Water Works chain.
2. He doesn't invite others to his guild's ship.
3. They start the chain.
4. IdiotZerger1 is a 1TR arrogant zerging brainless barb/fighter, who got used to running around and killing trash at high lvl... so the first thing he does is rush to an army of kobold shamans.
5. Shamans 1-2hit kill the entire party (60+ dmg per lightning bolt) which was trying to save him(or simply was near him) after he ran into those kobolds.
6. IdiotZerger1 kills the kobolds which are unable to even scratch him. (because if 30 all resists.)
7. IdiotZerger1 calls everybody in the party worthless n00bs for wasting his precious 10% exp, recalls and leaves the party wiped!

Results: ppl release, party disbands, some ppl might stop playing the game. PPL loose at least 30 minutes of playing and the party they gathered, which if a normal person joined would have finished WW on elite... so 5 ppl also loose favor/exp/loot, because of IdiotZerger1.

Times this happened: 36458235692837465238 and increasing by the minute O.o .

stille_nacht
07-15-2011, 10:06 AM
When I read op post at 1st ait sounds like an awsome idea.

Then I remember I enjoy games in a specific way. I like quick completions when I TR without any difficulties running through. Since I solo most q's from 1-5. I'd disagree with you. Also without mentionning the work And dedication it takes to be at a step with all shrines over a ship.

Something I don't get at all, why people still complain about usefull buff. If you have masochists thoughts it is actually YOUR thoughts not ours.

If you think it's unfair and want everybody to be equal in a peace world mixed up with fairy tales and carebears. I'd say live with your lovely bears while I ride through DDO with my big pimpin boat.

well first i say that "because it makes the game easier, it should stay, if you dont think so, you are a masochist" is a rather odd view, all games need soem balance.

second, i say
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/lblackwell/2005/03/01/thread_necromancer.png?maxWidth=800&maxHeight=600

Lemanchot
07-15-2011, 11:52 AM
well first i say that "because it makes the game easier, it should stay, if you dont think so, you are a masochist" is a rather odd view, all games need soem balance.

second, i say
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/lblackwell/2005/03/01/thread_necromancer.png?maxWidth=800&maxHeight=600

Nice picture bro, you must feel cool now don't you.

puget
07-15-2011, 02:32 PM
I would say that to more balance this, then offer the same buffs on a NON GUILD airship, where players that are not in a guild could get the same buffs.

/sarcasm off.

Otherwise, there are resist pots available that scale, essentially, by level by having a minimum level requirement, and the same should be expected of guild ship buffs.

Just offering some common sense. And my common sense tells me that the minimum level requirement for resist pots across the board should be removed, or guildship buffs should scale in the same manner as the currently available to all players resist pots.

But that is just me.

Orratti
07-15-2011, 03:12 PM
The resistances do make it a breeze to lvl. I can have acid arrow and burning blood on my character at the same time and they are nothing more than two squares on my buff bar. If it is elemental damage as long as I don't die and lose my ship buffs it means nothing. Easy button is exactly the word for it. I don't care really just because it is convenient not to have to worry about having enemy casters being able to damage me outside of magic missiles which I do carry cheap lowbie wands to counteract. Those who are really interested in seeing the game being a challenge though should definitely be screaming up a storm about this however. I wonder when the outrage will begin.

Btw to add fuel for the outrage remember that the ship buffs can't be debuffed as pots, and cast spells can and if I remember correctly using a shrine will remove house p buffs although I may be wrong there, haven't used those buffs since the awesome ship resists came out and even before that I really didn't use them much since I rarely wanted to run to house p to get them when resists were usually passed out during party buffing.

Recently I saw a post asking for house p buffs to be equal to ship buffs in strength and duration for those who haven't gotten their guild lvl up to the point where they have the full powered resistance buffs of a higher lvl guild. There was some resistance to that idea as the point was why bother having guild or guild ship buffs if you could have the same benefits just from getting house p buffs. It is a valid point of course.

I will be awaiting the chorus of posts agreeing with you op and looking for the complaints of easy buttons and back in the day we walked through the snow uphill both ways with no shoes on stories. Oh, that's right, you won't be seeing those as these buffs only affect high lvl guild players and those they invite to their ships. Nevermind that the challenge has been removed from even their newly built, just created, non tr character that gets their guild invite as soon as they are born. Do I care? Nope. Just find it humorous. You should see my smirk.