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ZeroTakenaka
06-14-2011, 12:16 PM
Reposted from Lamannia: Ran VON6. Both healers dead and 6 others. Couldn't raise. Please add shrine after completion.

(( GTG soon ))

EDIT: Okay I had to go to college so I didn't exactly explain everything

We just ran von5 on elite. This was a PUG group on Khyber with everyone lvl 11 to 14. We ran it on hard and when we were going in to face the dragon. Most people died at the door(a few stragglers). We rush in and begin beating the dragon down... now she isn't exactly hard to beat down but when I said fire get out even more people died. Able to kill her with only 4 people left standing(none of them were healers). I asked a GM to spawn an ethereal rez shrine since the raid was already over and most other raids already had a rez shrine at the end.

You can guess how that went. >.>

EDIT 2: Also a rezz shrine in the Restless Isles raid would be good.

The point is that now the people who died are stuck on a timer and will not be able to even have a chance at raid loot. It's not fair to them.

EDIT 3: A certain thread - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=323594 is allowing me to push this thread BACK from the dead to PLEASE add a ressurection shrine at the end of The Restless Isles raid and at the end of the Vault of Night raid.

Also, teleporter to the Forge would be nice.

Asketes
06-14-2011, 12:22 PM
quite a few raids have a rez shrine upon completion, it would make sense to add it to von6 after velah perishes.

Tarackian
06-14-2011, 12:31 PM
/not signed. I think they all should be removed from the end of the raids.......

Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear (dragon/titan/whatever) gets you.

Live with it and be better prepared the next time. Why should you be rewarded for dying from the last breath/strike of the boss as you kill them? and you want rewarded? for what, basically failing to survive? If its a bug, fix the bug, don't subvert the quest and reward those that have failed.

[quoting from Melville's Moby **** (and "Khan")] To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!

Life isn't fair and you don't always win.

Asketes
06-14-2011, 01:23 PM
@tarack

no :p

Cyr
06-14-2011, 01:29 PM
/signed

It would also be a good idea to fix the bug also, but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon considering Turbine's track record with these things.

KoboldKiller
06-14-2011, 01:31 PM
I would have to agree with this.

A mechanic that can wipe you out AFTER completion with no way to be rewarded is just plain lame.

ZeroTakenaka
06-14-2011, 01:55 PM
/not signed. I think they all should be removed from the end of the raids.......

Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear (dragon/titan/whatever) gets you.

Live with it and be better prepared the next time. Why should you be rewarded for dying from the last breath/strike of the boss as you kill them? and you want rewarded? for what, basically failing to survive? If its a bug, fix the bug, don't subvert the quest and reward those that have failed.

[quoting from Melville's Moby **** (and "Khan")] To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!

Life isn't fair and you don't always win.

Oh and being put on a timer for 3 days is fair for joining the raid and putting your time into it only to die?

Bad move man... bad move...

Tarackian
06-14-2011, 01:57 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with this, fix the bug.
I would have to agree with this.

A mechanic that can wipe you out AFTER completion with no way to be rewarded is just plain lame.

Tarackian
06-14-2011, 01:58 PM
If it was a legitimate death, yes. If not, fix the bug as stated.


Oh and being put on a timer for 3 days is fair for joining the raid and putting your time into it only to die?

Bad move man... bad move...

TheDearLeader
06-14-2011, 02:03 PM
I agree that the lack of a shrine upon completion of this quest, on any difficulty, is silly.

bkasavan
06-14-2011, 04:52 PM
Also, i remember seeing a post about an EV6 that shiped AFTER the Dragon diesed, it was the Lag Monster.
They were looting the chests when they got killed.

Esserbe
06-15-2011, 02:20 AM
/not signed. I think they all should be removed from the end of the raids.......

Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear (dragon/titan/whatever) gets you.

Live with it and be better prepared the next time. Why should you be rewarded for dying from the last breath/strike of the boss as you kill them? and you want rewarded? for what, basically failing to survive? If its a bug, fix the bug, don't subvert the quest and reward those that have failed.

[quoting from Melville's Moby **** (and "Khan")] To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!

Life isn't fair and you don't always win.

"Life isn't fair"? It's a GAME, and people REGULARLY get post-completion wipes due to lag and bugs, most recently in this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=323594) thread where several people acknowledged experiencing it, and the Turbine customer rep suggested a thread be made in Suggestions & Ideas to promote this issue.

ADQ2 has ethereal shrines, I don't think anybody has ever complained that it made it too easy to get loot.

FACT: Velah bugs out and kills people after she's died.
FACT: Cakes are not usable in raids.
FACT: You cannot re-enter VoN6 or epics.
FACT: This puts people on timer while preventing them to get loot.
FACT: Some GMs will be bros and put up a shrine; some will go "I cannot res players" because they literally do not undertand the issue as they do not know the game.
SPECULATION: This makes people angry and makes them stop playing and give Turbine money.

This is bad. Easiest solution: Ethereal shrines after every raid is completed, at the chests, most notably Titan and VON6 where unforeseen circumstances (bugs, griefing, lag) can lock players out of chances at loot.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT FAILING RAIDS. It's about COMPLETING raids, surviving the last attack (not dying to it, as you seem to believe), and THEN being owned just because Velah doesn't believe that time is linear and that she can fight from the past or the future whenever she feels like it, or something.

It needs to be fixed.

sirgog
06-15-2011, 02:26 AM
/signed.

It's crazy that killing the dragon, but having eight people die in the attempt, is a worse outcome than having all twelve players die and the dragon survive.

lhidda
06-15-2011, 02:27 AM
Why should you be rewarded for dying from the last breath/strike of the boss as you kill them? and you want rewarded?

Technically you get end reward at quest giver, hehe.


It's crazy that killing the dragon, but having eight people die in the attempt, is a worse outcome than having all twelve players die and the dragon survive.

Disagree. Victory > Fail, even if your constitution does not allow you to loot chests. Let the surviving 4 people resurrect the others.

/not signed ... I dont see any good reason. If all people die, who can resurrect its bad luck. Craft some resurrect clickeys, its easy. On that top-notch raid, most people in the raid should be able to resurrect. Edit:

Rather fix the bug, if there is one. Fight the cause, rather than medicate the symptoms.

protokon
06-15-2011, 02:53 AM
If you still complain about not gettin the chests, spend 150tp to get a resurect cake.

Rather fix the bug, if there is one. Fight the cause, rather than medicate the symptoms.

velah blowing fire at people, while there looting the chest...sounds like a legitimate bug to me. kind of like when you kill a troll in the middle of his attack animation and he still hits you 3 times *after* he is no longer there.

its also been mentioned a few times, in case you didnt notice, you cannot use res cakes in a raid..

lhidda
06-15-2011, 02:54 AM
its also been mentioned a few times, in case you didnt notice, you cannot use res cakes in a raid..

Agree, I missed that issue with cakes and raids.

steelblueskies
06-15-2011, 03:02 AM
Might be worth asking for one on completion of von5 as well. Having res capable personnel at level for norm can be an issue, having the res capable bite it and no shrine, way to get back in, or enter 6 sucks too.
Very annoying and res scrolls don't always save the day if you cannot personally use them yet..
Irony being the map shows a pair of shrines flanking he entrance to von6. They're the ones on the floor below and inaccessible.

NinjaNeed
06-15-2011, 03:23 AM
/signed 100%

I was thinking of saying this is not needed as people should have a res clicky for epic raids, but then I realised that this raid is still run at level and not on epic difficulty!

ALL raids should have a res shrine at the end. Shroud, HoX, VoD, ToD, Revers and ADQ all have one, why Titan and VoN do not I have no idea (guess its to do with their age). And I do not see why it would ruin the raids.

Rian
06-15-2011, 04:30 AM
Technically you get end reward at quest giver, hehe.

Yup, a horrible reward, a 2day 18hour timer, and the irritation that Velah is mocking you with her Halo style kill from the grave.





Disagree. Victory > Fail, even if your constitution does not allow you to loot chests. Let the surviving 4 people resurrect the others.

because everyone singe player that has a toon is capable of rezzing the others /sarcasm

Actually, I like the idea of my barbarian screaming at someone til they woke from the dead :D



/not signed ... I dont see any good reason. If all people die, who can resurrect its bad luck. Craft some resurrect clickeys, its easy. On that top-notch raid, most people in the raid should be able to resurrect. Edit:

Rather fix the bug, if there is one. Fight the cause, rather than medicate the symptoms.

Makes sense, craft uber gear you want to complete a raid with when the necesitys are much lower than a green steel item. Not everyone has access to that, sorry. They pamper us on every other raid, what makes this one the exception? On epic I can see it, I'm okay with that, I accept it. Anything lower? Makes no sense. The more you try to explain that, the less I'll understand it. Velah has always been one of THE mile-markers for players on the quest for uberdom at end game. If you can beat her, you're on the right track. So to me it makes sense that they lessen the blow on a very close call (A rez shrine at the end, like ALMOST EVERY other raid).

lhidda
06-15-2011, 04:58 AM
Yup, a horrible reward, a 2day 18hour timer, and the irritation that Velah is mocking you with her Halo style kill from the grave.


Never contradicted to that.



because everyone singe player that has a toon is capable of rezzing the others /sarcasm
Actually, I like the idea of my barbarian screaming at someone til they woke from the dead :D

Well, many are able to ress. In epic content you should be able to resurrect (at least one person), regardless of class.



Makes sense, craft uber gear you want to complete a raid with when the necesitys are much lower than a green steel item. Not everyone has access to that, sorry. They pamper us on every other raid, what makes this one the exception? On epic I can see it, I'm okay with that, I accept it. Anything lower? Makes no sense. The more you try to explain that, the less I'll understand it. Velah has always been one of THE mile-markers for players on the quest for uberdom at end game. If you can beat her, you're on the right track. So to me it makes sense that they lessen the blow on a very close call (A rez shrine at the end, like ALMOST EVERY other raid).

Raise dead clickey is just a tier2 gs item, not expensive at all. those who can umd, can take scrolls. See, no rocket science.

You like red color, do you? I deleted it in my quotes, it makes you lookin aggressive.

Rian
06-15-2011, 05:15 AM
Well, many are able to ress. In epic content you should be able to resurrect (at least one person), regardless of class.
Keyword: EPIC I don't exactly UMD scrolls on my level 11 barbarian. and If you read all of my post you'd see it wouldn't bother me if a rez shrine was NOT in EPIC




Raise dead clickey is just a tier2 gs item, not expensive at all. those who can umd, can take scrolls. See, no rocket science.

You're right, it's not expensive, the point is though that people not able to access green steel (players who are new, players AT LEVEL, players who HAVEN'T TRed), players who don't own the pack, etc...) can't raise one another. As for UMD, while it is possible, not everyone has it, not everyone can afford it. Why should newer players with lesser funds miss out on the rewards that other players with more funds and better gear may reap simply because of a lag/bug issue that's never been fixed.



You like red color, do you? I deleted it in my quotes, it makes you lookin aggressive.

You don't know me very well :D It makes me feel like it'll stand out more, plus I'm an original Xorian. Red and Xoriat just seem to fit together for me.

lhidda
06-15-2011, 05:23 AM
Keyword: EPIC I don't exactly UMD scrolls on my level 11 barbarian. and If you read all of my post you'd see it wouldn't bother me if a rez shrine was NOT in EPIC

You're right, it's not expensive, the point is though that people not able to access green steel (players who are new, players AT LEVEL, players who HAVEN'T TRed), players who don't own the pack, etc...) can't raise one another. As for UMD, while it is possible, not everyone has it, not everyone can afford it. Why should newer players with lesser funds miss out on the rewards that other players with more funds and better gear may reap simply because of a lag/bug issue that's never been fixed.

You don't know me very well :D It makes me feel like it'll stand out more, plus I'm an original Xorian. Red and Xoriat just seem to fit together for me.

Ok, after fixing this (obvious) bug, will u still need a ress shrine there? I won't.

But concerning there are shrines spawning in e.g. hox after finishing, it would be ok to let shrines spawn in velah just to be consistent for raids. But still, talkin about whether a shrines spawns or not is a non-issue to me, just get this bug fixed. ;D

Rian
06-15-2011, 05:27 AM
But concerning there are shrines spawning in e.g. hox after finishing, it would be ok to let shrines spawn in velah just to be consistent for raids. But still, talkin about whether a shrines spawns or not is a non-issue to me, just get this bug fixed. ;D


Okay, I'll agree with you...





this time....

uthanak69
06-15-2011, 05:30 AM
/signed

wootvenu
06-15-2011, 05:49 AM
/signed
Edit: 1tp rez cookie ftw

karl_k0ch
06-15-2011, 05:59 AM
/signed
Edit: 1tp rez cookie ftw

Oh, you are allowed to use these in raids?

Gkar
06-15-2011, 06:08 AM
Originally the thinking in raids was "if you die and no one is there to rez you, tough luck"

Since that time the devs clearly had a change of heart and ethereal rez shrines have been added to numberous quests and all the new raids.

Clearly its time to go back and fix both Titan and Von6, the only two I can think of that still have this mechanic.

Bart_D
06-15-2011, 06:33 AM
/signed

I have had this happen twice and both were major bummers to everyone. I mean... We won, killed the big dragon and all, but then... wipe and no reward.

I guess it can be seen as a kind of anti-cookie (HA! gatcha!) but I really doubt anyone experiencing it has become more fond of DDO from the experience.

And, no, ress cookies do not work in raids.

wootvenu
06-15-2011, 06:39 AM
Oh, you are allowed to use these in raids?

Bah Nooby me!

adam1oftheround
06-15-2011, 06:51 AM
Please remove all end quest shrines. If HOX kills half your party, and the remaining members cannot raise you, then you should not get the loot boxes. Vela, same.

Spoprockel
06-15-2011, 07:10 AM
Please remove all end quest shrines. If HOX kills half your party, and the remaining members cannot raise you, then you should not get the loot boxes. Vela, same.

Why shouldn't i get the loot boxes? It's not my fault that half the raid party cannot raise me.

What if i was the tank, moved the dogs to the right position, did the most work and die at the end to some unlucky bees?
Do you think it's fair that i wouldn't get anything, just because the remaining people cannot raise?


I don't want to depend on other peoples ability to raise me, im all for rezz shrines at the end.

Esserbe
06-15-2011, 07:11 AM
Please remove all end quest shrines. If HOX kills half your party, and the remaining members cannot raise you, then you should not get the loot boxes. Vela, same.

Do you believe it should count as a completion and that you should be able to get an end reward?

Why not take it one step further and immediately log you out and delete the character? No more easy buttons.

You guys are being silly.

Palantyr
06-15-2011, 07:15 AM
I gotta say it's a good idea in von6, I've seen the fire breath go off a few times well after she's been defeated and disappeared. Or at least fix the bug. It'd be nice if someone losing connection during the dragon didn't cause an unsignaled breath attack too.

I'd actually like to see a raid where failure still lead to a three day timer. I don't think a played out old raid where a post completion wipe due to an obvious bug is the best place to implement that idea. You guys calling for it tho, stay hard!

Zerkul
06-15-2011, 07:22 AM
We had once an issue like this one mentioned in the first posts in one of our Guild Raids ....

In fact Velah Breath killed all party after she died because LAG did make us get damage late. We had to make 3 people recall from raid (they didn't loot), invite 3 people capable of walking thru VoN5 without any other support: they did the pre-raid, entered VoN6 and raise the party.

When it's LAG that kills you at end of the raid, it needs to be fixed ... or it is Work As Intended to get breath damage after completion?

steelblueskies
06-15-2011, 10:18 AM
We had once an issue like this one mentioned in the first posts in one of our Guild Raids ....

In fact Velah Breath killed all party after she died because LAG did make us get damage late. We had to make 3 people recall from raid (they didn't loot), invite 3 people capable of walking thru VoN5 without any other support: they did the pre-raid, entered VoN6 and raise the party.

When it's LAG that kills you at end of the raid, it needs to be fixed ... or it is Work As Intended to get breath damage after completion?

how in the heck do you three man the 6 lever doors? four i could see. i've had toons that could solo von5 if not for the doors..

Sarisa
06-15-2011, 11:01 AM
how in the heck do you three man the 6 lever doors? four i could see. i've had toons that could solo von5 if not for the doors..

If you time it perfectly right, you can hit all three on a side. Same thing with the fire levers.

bkasavan
06-15-2011, 04:01 PM
also, one thing im going to add, everyone keeps on saying about the"bug" its not really a bug, its lag that causes the whipes.

Rian
06-15-2011, 07:15 PM
Do you believe it should count as a completion and that you should be able to get an end reward?

Why not take it one step further and immediately log you out and delete the character? No more easy buttons.

You guys are being silly.

It's not an easy button, it's an equal oppurtunity button. It's not silly when a lower level raid is harsher than the higher level raids. The "Life's not fair" argument won't work either. It's a game. The devs try give everyone the same oppurtunities to everyone, you may not see them, but they are there.

Tell you what, you run through a raid or quest with loot you really want badly then die just before you open that chest. Better yet, AS you open the chest and see what's inside, then die before looting it.


I find it rediculous that the raid will only favor the toons built by players who've been playing for years and years and have the gear to do almost everything.
It's disheartening to see a new guy, first time through VoN6 and complete all excited to get his first chance at raid loot, then die wondering "What in the flame just happened?" and everyone has to explain to him or her the lag issue that causes people to die after they complete it. It could perhaps cost them money in the future, which is bad juju.

If we can't have one at the end of VoN raids and Titan, then take them all out and just wait for the waves of players later wanting them back.

ZeroTakenaka
06-20-2011, 03:45 PM
Hey, it's monday. MadFloyd can you chime in on this discussion please?

Der_Incubo
06-20-2011, 04:03 PM
Ring of the Ancestors!

Ive only seen this bug happen once, and luckily i had the ring and was able to rez the cleric.

LordPiglet
06-20-2011, 04:15 PM
Ring of the Ancestors!

Ive only seen this bug happen once, and luckily i had the ring and was able to rez the cleric.

hard to find, and usuable by good aligned characters only

oh, and /signed

Enoach
06-20-2011, 04:48 PM
/signed

I feel that raids should have a Rez shrine upon completion such as they currently have one in

Abbot
Demon Queen
HoX
VoD
ToD
Chronoscope (not at the final fight but there are at least 2 on the way to the end chest)
Tempest Spine (accessable, but not at final fight)


I do believe this is enough precidence to consider adding at least an accessable Rez shrine to the completion of

VON5
VON6
Titan


As you can see from this list the raids at issue are among the oldest raids in DDO.

KillEveryone
06-20-2011, 06:36 PM
/signed

TheDearLeader
06-20-2011, 06:40 PM
This wasn't in Update 10's Release Notes? Meaning they haven't implemented it?

I'd Rage right now, but the Sorc in my party says he doesn't carry it.

ZeroTakenaka
06-20-2011, 08:24 PM
This wasn't in Update 10's Release Notes? Meaning they haven't implemented it?

I'd Rage right now, but the Sorc in my party says he doesn't carry it.

They prob. forgot about it recently. I'm sure it'll be in by U11... hopefully.

TheDearLeader
06-20-2011, 09:58 PM
They prob. forgot about it recently. I'm sure it'll be in by U11... hopefully.

For sure, there's no way they *wouldn't* include it in U11. Or maybe 10.1? Right? :D

Sandheart
06-20-2011, 10:20 PM
/signed

About a week ago I lead a VON 5-norm 6-elite loot run. Everything went fine we killed the bases on the first try, and ran to the dragon with no worries. The dragon went down very quickly, and she died. About 30 seconds after her death fire appeared where it would have if she had still been alive. The sorc was the only one who made it. And he could not rez us. As leader of the raid I contacted a GM, and we waited 20 minutes for help. The GM them refused to do anything for us, and it was quite clear from where the stones were located that we were all running to the chest. >.<

Xenostrata
06-20-2011, 10:29 PM
This is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen, and I've been on the internet for a while now.

How can anyone seriously argue that denying someone who has already COMPLETED THE RAID doesn't deserve the loot? Death is usually chance anyway, and if you think about it the most likely to die and lose their loot are the ones at the front contributing, not the ones piking in the back.

I can understand arguments for making the game harder. But there isn't a fine line between "harder" and "frustrating", there's a 10' high, 20' wide wall of poisonous lava that kills anyone who tries to cross. Giving the raid an "easy button" (my new least favorite phrase) would be actually making the raid itself easier. Being able to resurrect after the raid is over doesn't make the raid easier, it makes it more fair.

The whole point of making the game harder is to make it more fun. Beating a raid and then being unable to collect your prize is not more fun. This "tough luck" mentality is incredibly arrogant, and people need to realize that this is a GAME, and that in the end the goal is to have fun. Any unnecessary rules that will only make rhe game less fun should be removed. Playing with a risk of failure is fun. Playing and barely succeeding is fun. Getting rewarded for beating a difficult raid is inherently satisfying. Denying this to anyone based on chance is pointless.