PDA

View Full Version : Nerf eDA!



Dispel
06-13-2011, 04:59 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

protokon
06-13-2011, 05:02 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

maybe your doing it wrong. the last time I ran through it, didn't have to use pots. not even close.

Trillea
06-13-2011, 05:02 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

This quest is completable without pots. Bring a virtuoso (no I'm not joking) and a good DC caster, and you will be fine, as long as your DPS characters don't stink.

absolutely /not signed

KingOfCheese
06-13-2011, 05:02 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

I've been in many runs on both my cleric and caster and not used any pots. With a solid, balanced group, that can be the norm.

Unquestionably, there are group make-ups that will be a consumable festival. But those are often known or knowable going in.

Tobril
06-13-2011, 05:02 PM
Many people have done it without pots, including gimps like me.

EDA is the last truly challenging 6-man, IMO and should stay unchanged.

Trillea
06-13-2011, 05:03 PM
Many people have done it without pots, including gimps like me.

EDA is the last truly challenging 6-man, IMO and should stay unchanged.

/qft

Alternative
06-13-2011, 05:16 PM
Dancing sphere in the centre, mobs spawn - mass hold; single archer spawns - finger or dance. Repeat.

Don't take this kind of melees who use aligned dream edges to bypass DR/good. (true story!)

jillie
06-13-2011, 05:17 PM
/not signed

You need to upgrade your DPS.

Aurora_nyx
06-13-2011, 05:20 PM
would have to agree with everyone else... even my "gimpy" healer has done it without drinking a pot...

It is one of those quests that you actually have to make sure you have the right group to not fail. Which is kinda nice for the challenge

Vellrad
06-13-2011, 05:21 PM
Don't do it on caster if you can't afford it.
You wont pull any caster reward anyway.

Dragaer
06-13-2011, 05:22 PM
2 arcanes (even better if one or both are PM's)
1 spellsinger,
1 healer
2 DPS

Best group to do eDA with. :D

edit -> to reinforce what folks are saying, no pots are ever needed

Memnir
06-13-2011, 05:24 PM
Mr. Cosby says: "(click) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5pCsFw3OsU)".

For the record, I agree with Mr. Cosby.

k1ngp1n
06-13-2011, 05:26 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.


Huh? Seriously?


Mr. Cosby says: "(click)".

I love you.

kernal42
06-13-2011, 05:35 PM
I do love it when people rationalize their own failures by assuming that better performance is impossible.

-Kernal

Thriand
06-13-2011, 05:35 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

I complete this quest quite frequently on my sorc with zero pots used, I wouldn't even call it the hardest epic quest to conserve mana in, that would probable be eADQ and that is still quite easily achieved with zero pots.

bkasavan
06-13-2011, 05:39 PM
Many people have done it without pots, including gimps like me.

EDA is the last truly challenging 6-man, IMO and should stay unchanged.

^ This

Quikster
06-13-2011, 05:39 PM
Here we go again...

SiliconShadow
06-13-2011, 05:45 PM
I've two manned it sorc+wizard.. so damn easy now its a joke.

/not signed MAKE IT HARDER!

shortdevils
06-13-2011, 05:49 PM
NO!
*for reasons stated above*
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/581/enhancedbuzz43913058999.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/enhancedbuzz43913058999.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Tirisha
06-13-2011, 05:55 PM
It's called U9..... EDA is a joke compared to what is was when you actually needed CC. Now it's displace, wail and move on........ *exaggerating just a bit but you get my point*

Tirisha
06-13-2011, 05:57 PM
*4* arcanes (even better if one or all are PM's)
1 spellsinger,
1 healer


Best group to do eDA with. :D



Fixed that for you *would be in red but I don't know how to color:p*

Sweyn
06-13-2011, 06:14 PM
The devs should make it so MORE quests are challenging instead of making everything easier.

NaturalHazard
06-13-2011, 06:17 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

Actually I cant remember the last time I ran it and people *needed* pots to complete. People seemed quite happy with my spellsing though, more dps, discount on spells so more sp for healer and caster and also backed up the healer with heals and the caster with cc fasinate and my own piddly 40dc disco ball, also the otto level 6 dance spell when a particular mob became troublesome.

NaturalHazard
06-13-2011, 06:20 PM
Don't do it on caster if you can't afford it.
You wont pull any caster reward anyway.

yeah but the stuff you do pull you can trade like the augment crystals, larges and boot mats, or give to your alts.

porq
06-13-2011, 06:30 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.
I have friends and guildies that do this quest on a regular basis without using any resources whatsoever. They just know how to be efficient.

I would say more, but you should be able to get where this is going with all the other responses here.


I do love it when people rationalize their own failures by assuming that better performance is impossible.

-Kernal

voodoogroves
06-13-2011, 06:31 PM
Many people have done it without pots, including gimps like me.

EDA is the last truly challenging 6-man, IMO and should stay unchanged.
Amen to this; I agree completely.

TheDearLeader
06-13-2011, 06:41 PM
I echo what has already been said before.

This quest *is* do-able by a 6 man party of various compositions, without resource consumption, without deaths.

Have I used resources on it? Hell yeah. First day it came out, I did it. We used like 40 Major Pots, mainly because my Sorcerer's DCs sucked (still do, really).

But that was the day it came out, and because we were willing to pay for what we were lacking.

Now? I bring another toon. Maybe my Spellsinger, with better spell pen and enchantment DCs. Or maybe my Pally, or.. whatever. Or the Sorc's just another DPS toon, who handles buffs so the DC caster can keep rolling.

Either way... the quest gets completed, no one uses pots - sometimes, people forget to use baubles even.

So... no, no thank you.

Aashrym
06-13-2011, 07:06 PM
Fixed that for you *would be in red but I don't know how to color:p*

Your healer should be an AoV for the aura. ;)

Tirisha
06-13-2011, 11:25 PM
Your healer should be an AoV for the aura. ;)

sounds like you've done this before:p /sigh I've already deleted my melee toons

bendover
06-14-2011, 02:18 AM
Absolutely not. The quest is fine itself and one of my more personal favorites, if anything they should make it harder. And no, people don't need to chug pots to complete. More times then not people aren't having to chug them.

Oh and: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=312161&highlight=EDA+Sarlona+Style. That was only 2 pots too btw, 1 of which was for haste for the end fight.

voxson5
06-14-2011, 02:36 AM
Ahh h4X....

You know how your many Hp'ed sorc has the spellcasting DC's of a wet paper towel?

Might be something in that

Shade
06-14-2011, 02:38 AM
I've beat this quest without even taking a caster.. So why the heck would we need mana pots? 6 melee that can self heal could absolutely slaughter this quest.

Since the nerfs the mobs have so few hp, that I can take down a whole pack of devils in 6 cleaves.. If we had 6 melee like me, all do 6 cleave when they teleport in.. hah. It would end up being like running it on casual, 2 seconds of killing, then 2 mins of waiting for the next wave.

I've pugged this quest dozens of times and have often heard horror storys of casters using many pots sure.. But everytime I hear that I explain to them, no.. I actually demand it, that they drink no pots. And we beat it everytime.

I've done this quest with some of the worst pugs around, with casters who just constantly die, clerics that dont understand simply concepts of movement or heal scrolls, etc... One run I i did with only a bard, he said he had 120 hitpoints, he wasn't joking. They died a lot, I might of drank some SF pots, No mana pots, and we still beat the quest.

Far as healers using pots, that just dumb. How much healing needed is directily porpotional to how fast you kill things. So if your melee suck, sure they might need ot heal more, but they could just use scrolls. If the melee dont suck, its easily done on a single bar on your average clr/fvs with zero consumables.

If you wanna beat the quest using less SP.. Get a melee that can actually handle a few kills for you in epic. This is pretty much the only quest I run often lately, and while it can be challenge for some players, it definetely does not require any use of mana pots.

karnokvolrath
06-14-2011, 02:51 AM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

lolwut?

Alot of people do it w/o pots. You need to change your gameplan.

Dragavon
06-14-2011, 02:58 AM
The devs should make it so MORE quests are challenging instead of making everything easier.

This.

Blackmoors
06-14-2011, 03:20 AM
I've beat this quest without even taking a caster.. So why the heck would we need mana pots? 6 melee that can self heal could absolutely slaughter this quest.

Since the nerfs the mobs have so few hp, that I can take down a whole pack of devils in 6 cleaves.. If we had 6 melee like me, all do 6 cleave when they teleport in.. hah. It would end up being like running it on casual, 2 seconds of killing, then 2 mins of waiting for the next wave.

I've pugged this quest dozens of times and have often heard horror storys of casters using many pots sure.. But everytime I hear that I explain to them, no.. I actually demand it, that they drink no pots. And we beat it everytime.

I've done this quest with some of the worst pugs around, with casters who just constantly die, clerics that dont understand simply concepts of movement or heal scrolls, etc... One run I i did with only a bard, he said he had 120 hitpoints, he wasn't joking. They died a lot, I might of drank some SF pots, No mana pots, and we still beat the quest.

Far as healers using pots, that just dumb. How much healing needed is directily porpotional to how fast you kill things. So if your melee suck, sure they might need ot heal more, but they could just use scrolls. If the melee dont suck, its easily done on a single bar on your average clr/fvs with zero consumables.

If you wanna beat the quest using less SP.. Get a melee that can actually handle a few kills for you in epic. This is pretty much the only quest I run often lately, and while it can be challenge for some players, it definetely does not require any use of mana pots.

Ok, we get your uber but killing a Devil with 4 Cleaves (even if you did 4 1000dmg crits the mobs have more HP than that) and a Bard lvl 20 with 120 HP (he would need to be a elf starting with 6 CON and no item whatsoever to boost his HP and CON stat) seems very exaggerated, dont you think...? And a "proper" DPS character isnt going to defeat the mobs alone without someone healing him or making the mobs stop so he can kill them...


Anyway, Its a challenge quest for people who havent develope a good strategy and nice setup or for people who are running it for the first time. My suggestion to the OP - since many here didnt tried and help in any way and went to lenghts to say they are the ****, would be to get a good Party Setup:

1. try and get a good Cleric build for Healing;
2. a FvS that can both Heal and Melee;
3. a Bard that can do CC and Melee;
4. a Caster with good Necromancy DC (to kill some pesky casters and archers) and Enchantment DC (so the mass holds and Discos work);
5. 2 good DPS toons with proper weapons and some Hit Points to not get killed quickly (I like to have a Tank to Draw aggor and a Rogue to "freely" backstab in there).

At start, you may use one pot or two, its normal when you dont know the quest, but as soon as you start running the quest frequently and getting the hang of it, you will be able to run it with sub-optimal parties and dont spend any pots whatsoever. Good luck and Happy questing!

rodallec
06-14-2011, 03:32 AM
maxing caster stat not con might help pal.

sirgog
06-14-2011, 04:07 AM
I echo what has already been said before.

This quest *is* do-able by a 6 man party of various compositions, without resource consumption, without deaths.

Have I used resources on it? Hell yeah. First day it came out, I did it. We used like 40 Major Pots, mainly because my Sorcerer's DCs sucked (still do, really).

But that was the day it came out, and because we were willing to pay for what we were lacking.

Now? I bring another toon. Maybe my Spellsinger, with better spell pen and enchantment DCs. Or maybe my Pally, or.. whatever. Or the Sorc's just another DPS toon, who handles buffs so the DC caster can keep rolling.

Either way... the quest gets completed, no one uses pots - sometimes, people forget to use baubles even.

So... no, no thank you.

/this.

Day one, beat it first try, used 12 pots between us.

Later, we rethought our strategies. More Discoballs, less Holds. More melee stuns (a 300 DPS monk with all the stuns is far better than a 400 DPS barbarian with no stuns in eDA). Less focus on 'kill everything fast' and more focus on 'keep everything under control'.

Results - smooth completions, 0-2 mana pots used each runs.

Later still, we honed our approach more, and got some speed back into it. We learned that you can burn mana in Phase 4. We built up our casting DCs and spell penetration. We figured out which melees in the guild were best to use as Turigulon tanks. Now, it's smooth, fast 0 mana pot runs, or 1-2 pots if someone makes a big mistake (like letting Discoballs expire in part 2 then getting tripped).

maha0201
06-14-2011, 04:31 AM
Only thing intense in eDA is wave 1-3, since then is when casters/healers get low on sps ( near end of pt3 is usualy the chuggy time).

Noopleh
06-14-2011, 05:01 AM
FTR: I assume you never played a caster before? Do you know the worth of "pots"? I doubt you do. So don't talk about something you don't know about tyvm.

grgurius
06-14-2011, 05:11 AM
Really h4x, if you build your toon for PvP, what do you expect?

transtemporal
06-14-2011, 05:11 AM
Yeah, like most here I'm gonna say /not signed.

If you're spending pots, it's because your caster or melees are underprepared, underpowered, badly built, badly played.

Shade
06-14-2011, 07:17 AM
Ok, we get your uber but killing a Devil with 4 Cleaves (even if you did 4 1000dmg crits the mobs have more HP than that) and a Bard lvl 20 with 120 HP (he would need to be a elf starting with 6 CON and no item whatsoever to boost his HP and CON stat) seems very exaggerated, dont you think...?


Nah, they used to have double hp, that was pre u9.
old devils: about 6k hp
new: 3khp
The minion ones I mean, which is actually the vast majority of them. (only the first couple waves are named "vermin keeper" which have much more hp - around 6-8k.

And I said 6 cleaves.
So 3000/6 = 500 a swing. Well within range of what I can do. Might be a slightly lucky streak, but i've done it, it happens. At worst if I get no crits ill take perhaps 10 swings/cleaves. (also keep in mind with faster supreme cleave barbs can now do 1 swing between cleaves, and attack nearly the same rate doing it - roughly 100 hits a min)

Ideal perfect rolls would be 2 cleaves, with the third one being overkill..
1200 crit + ~100 glancing blow/frenzy dmg = 1300
2nd hit = 2600
3rd hit = 400 hp left.
and thats without counting the swing inbetween (but that only hits 1 mob anyways)

Bard wasn't exagerating, we checked his myddo.. That was exactly what he had. He was a 100% pure haggle bard absolutely not designed for any combat, level'd via almost entirely piking =) Took him along because imo any bard is better then no bard. He might have had 140 hp when we cast rage heh. I think after all his death penaltie,s he probably had less then 100 hp.


And a "proper" DPS character isnt going to defeat the mobs alone without someone healing him or making the mobs stop so he can kill them...
I can.. Am I not proper?
I think i defined a proper dps build years ago.. Any decent melee certain can self heal thru epics.. It's a simple matter of putting on some healing amp,carrying some SF pots and having stats of 11+.. Simple enough if you plan for it.

While i haven't attempted to solo this quest.. I have finished many waves off after my entire party died while self healing... including bosses.

Palantyr
06-14-2011, 08:39 AM
I'd have to with the no nerf crowd. After some experience with it, you'll find this is one of the easier, more boring epics out there and probably grindy if you're running it for specific augment crystals. Last Stand has more chaos than eDA, at least in that one you get move around instead of standing in one spot. Disco balls, holy aura, a maybe some web are your friend, and insta death spells in the post u9 game make it yet even easier. This one is always proclaimed to be one of the hardest epics, and I just don't get it, it's a one room quest with bosses that have no special surprises damage wise and mobs will run to you for the most part. The strategy should be glaring obvious after one go round.

fluffybunnywilson
06-14-2011, 08:44 AM
I do think that there should be quests available for people who aren't good enough at the game to take on epic Devil's Assault. And there are! There are lots of easy quests in the game.

I just think that there should be at least *some* quests for the people who want some extra challenge. Variety is a good thing.

grodon9999
06-14-2011, 09:02 AM
My 1900 SP NO GEAR 18/2 Clonk has healed this quest multiple times with no pots used.

This quest is one of the few remaining challenges left in the game, do not nerf it.

Dexxaan
06-14-2011, 09:21 AM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

Maybe....Just maybe all your Tanks took some goofball advice and have 7 Toughness feats and therefore they arenĀ“t exactly up to par?




:D



.

Darkrok
06-14-2011, 09:48 AM
A caster with solid enchant dc's, a competent healer, and a well played bard of any pre make this quest a joke. I've never been in one that required pots while playing on my warchanter bard. I dance anything dangerous that's free, keep everyone buffed (rage/haste/displace along with blur/gh), keep songs up and heal/reconstruct/raise scroll in a pinch. I'm by no means an uber twitch skills player so it's really just a matter of having 3 people that can keep their head and react to what happens and 3 dps (which now can really be any toon built for doing damage/insta-killing including divines) that can kill things reasonably well. It's an incredibly easy quest as long as the cc person has solid dc's and knows what they're doing. It's doable even if they don't.

Gkar
06-14-2011, 09:52 AM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

No, they don't.

Maybe your playstyle in those quests is messed up. Generally people run EDA because its near free loot.

LordPiglet
06-14-2011, 12:31 PM
Ok, we get your uber but killing a Devil with 4 Cleaves (even if you did 4 1000dmg crits the mobs have more HP than that) and a Bard lvl 20 with 120 HP (he would need to be a elf starting with 6 CON and no item whatsoever to boost his HP and CON stat) seems very exaggerated, dont you think...? And a "proper" DPS character isnt going to defeat the mobs alone without someone healing him or making the mobs stop so he can kill them...


Anyway, Its a challenge quest for people who havent develope a good strategy and nice setup or for people who are running it for the first time. My suggestion to the OP - since many here didnt tried and help in any way and went to lenghts to say they are the ****, would be to get a good Party Setup:

1. try and get a good Cleric build for Healing;
2. a FvS that can both Heal and Melee;
3. a Bard that can do CC and Melee;
4. a Caster with good Necromancy DC (to kill some pesky casters and archers) and Enchantment DC (so the mass holds and Discos work);
5. 2 good DPS toons with proper weapons and some Hit Points to not get killed quickly (I like to have a Tank to Draw aggor and a Rogue to "freely" backstab in there).

At start, you may use one pot or two, its normal when you dont know the quest, but as soon as you start running the quest frequently and getting the hang of it, you will be able to run it with sub-optimal parties and dont spend any pots whatsoever. Good luck and Happy questing!

Last 1 I ran it was

1 RS cleric
1 Pale Master
4 Melee (1 rogue, 1 ranger, 2 fighters)

No pots used, pale master tanked some scorps during the first wave to get mana. I tanked the 4th and 5th wave bosses with my heal amp gear and proper weapons (min II's)

rest
06-14-2011, 12:36 PM
Don't dump-stat your main casting attribute, and you'll have a much easier time in there.

All the HP in the world don't mean diddly squat if you can't do anything to kill/incapacitate for others to kill.

Dispel
06-14-2011, 12:40 PM
No, they don't.

Maybe your playstyle in those quests is messed up. Generally people run EDA because its near free loot.

I only run eDA on my melee. Everytime I see it ran, the casters are ALWAYS using pots.

I can't do eDA on Dispel for obvious lack of DC reasons which is of my own choosing.

If I wanted DCs, here is how it'd work out for me...

10 + Spell Level + Casting Stat Modifier + Items + Feats = DC

CHA: 16base +6item +3tome +3enhancements +5leveling +3exceptiona(easy gs item) +2ship_buffs =38 (14 modifier)

+2dc_item +2dc_feats = (4 items/feats) w/ Heighten so (9 spell level) would be 10+9+14+4 or 37, total.

Also, I have the Shard for the Cloak of the Silver Concord already so that +6item could easily become a +7item and save me 6 AP off that 3rd CHA enhancement.

Sure it's not much, but it's better than what I already have as a WF sorc. OH, my wizard past life =38.

Gkar
06-14-2011, 12:47 PM
I only run eDA on my melee. Everytime I see it ran, the casters are ALWAYS using pots.

Ok, then its their playstyle or the weak melee's in the group.

It's always good to have pots on hand in epics for when things go fubar, but they aren't needed in EDA unless someone screws up or the group is weak. If every group you are in is like that... *shrugs* you must just have bad luck or there is some commonalty in those grouping practices that leads to bad grouips.

slimkj
06-14-2011, 12:47 PM
Nope, leave it alone. It's doable without pots. It's also Epic, the clue is in the difficulty.

Want to do it without pots but not able to? Do Elite.

Cashiry
06-14-2011, 12:50 PM
Epic Devil's Assault is one quest where the casters *have* to have pots.

Healers/CC both need pots to get everyone through, and I think that's messed up.

There should not be a quest where the only way it can be completed is via pots.

Sorry to say bud, this quest does not need to be Nerfed. You may want to look at your build... for the reasons you believe you think this quest should be nerfed....

A Sorc with a 21 CHA and 2260 sps is always going to run out of mana... yes I understand your a PvP build, but dont bring your PvE shortcomings to the forumns and demand a NERF. Your DC's will be lower with the CHA that you have. and your sps will not get you thru the first 3 waves.

look at the bigger picture please and stop asking for Nerfs when they are not needed.

Dispel you are pretty good player.. with what you have available to you.. Just please think what you ask for in the future.

No disrespect intended to you, just trying to paint a picture for ya on why you think this quest should be nerfed.

Cash out.

Dispel
06-14-2011, 12:52 PM
In my post above I stated I never run eDA on Dispel. Just reminding..

Kalari
06-14-2011, 12:53 PM
Ive found with the new damage over time spells and boosts to my sorcs aoe ice spells and acid spells I have not had to chug pots in many elite or epic quests. Sure if your still under the playstyle of "I have a mana bar let me burn threw nuking" instead of finding the most effective way of cutting down mobs you may need to pot your way threw such quests. But my method is fog to slow them maybe a stunning spell like electic loop so the melees can cut them down while throwing dots on the big guys dont cost a lot of mana. Same with my divines when a caster plays smart leaves me more mana to add my own dots and top off those who may need healing which a lot of times are not many.

Guess im just lucky though :)

Memnir
06-14-2011, 12:57 PM
In my post above I stated I never run eDA on Dispel. Just reminding..So then you have no proper perspective on how this quest runs for casters since you only have a melee perspective on it - and don't really know if the casters "have to" use potions, or are doing so for the convenience factor.

Maybe the fact that a great deal of players who do play casters in that quest have said the quest is fine will offer you some solace that the quest is, in fact, fine as-is and needs no adjustment.

TheDearLeader
06-14-2011, 01:07 PM
In my post above I stated I never run eDA on Dispel. Just reminding..

THF's no prize winner, either, if that's what you're implying.

HP are solid, yeah. But his gear is pretty lacking, unless you intentionally are swapping out of your useful gear whenever you log.

From a melee standpoint, he does less damage, and would have potentially lower combat DCs, than a similar toon with more gear from lower level content/easier Epics. He will take longer to DPS mobs, and provide less combat CC.

Also, being Warforged, his Healing Amp is likely limited to Healer's Friend I or II, if you bothered at all, and *possibly* one of three slots on your DT. Meaning that you're only slightly more fun to heal than a brick.

I'm not saying this in a bad way, or trying to be mean. I'm just saying neither of your capped toons live up to the potential of the classes they are playing in a PvE environment.

Not all level 20 toons will have the same "gameplay experience" inside eDA, or any other quest/raid of moderate difficulty. That does not necessitate a nerf.

Again, not trying to hurt your feelings, or be negative, in what has been said here.

LordPiglet
06-14-2011, 02:06 PM
THF's no prize winner, either, if that's what you're implying.

HP are solid, yeah. But his gear is pretty lacking, unless you intentionally are swapping out of your useful gear whenever you log.

From a melee standpoint, he does less damage, and would have potentially lower combat DCs, than a similar toon with more gear from lower level content/easier Epics. He will take longer to DPS mobs, and provide less combat CC.

Also, being Warforged, his Healing Amp is likely limited to Healer's Friend I or II, if you bothered at all, and *possibly* one of three slots on your DT. Meaning that you're only slightly more fun to heal than a brick.

I'm not saying this in a bad way, or trying to be mean. I'm just saying neither of your capped toons live up to the potential of the classes they are playing in a PvE environment.

Not all level 20 toons will have the same "gameplay experience" inside eDA, or any other quest/raid of moderate difficulty. That does not necessitate a nerf.

Again, not trying to hurt your feelings, or be negative, in what has been said here.

Just because you're level 20, Doesn't mean you're ready for epics, especially the harder ones. I've done three lives, I still want to be geared better then I am and need to grind out more stuff before I know I'm sufficient enough to run epics like I want. 4th life is pending though.

Dispel
06-14-2011, 02:08 PM
Just because you're level 20, Doesn't mean you're ready for epics, especially the harder ones. I've done three lives, I still want to be geared better then I am and need to grind out more stuff before I know I'm sufficient enough to run epics like I want. 4th life is pending though.

It doesn't mean you aren't, either.

Kmnh
06-14-2011, 02:11 PM
I used pots there three times. One was the first time I ran it, two others were bad pugs. I used to run it daily before u9, now it's boring

Doxmaster
06-14-2011, 02:12 PM
Its a trap!

grodon9999
06-14-2011, 02:13 PM
It doesn't mean you aren't, either.

if you NEED pots, then you aren't ready.

maddmatt70
06-14-2011, 02:13 PM
It is post like the Ops that is so frustrating for alot of players. What it sounds like to me is the players in that group should not be running epic, but as we all know epic is the end game for all players :rolleyes: . What the devs should do is segregate the playing population more so this game can appeal to more different types of players. Alot of people would like to be playing end game that probably should not be playing epics and other people would like to play a more challenging end game, but are stuck with watered down easy quests called epic. You know what Turbine should realize that one size does not fit all. There is no such thing in the real world of one size where everybody has the same capabilities, knowledge, or ability going in, nor is the gaming world any different. Market the game differently. Make elite the end game and epic well should be an epic thing for players beyond elite.

FastTaco
06-14-2011, 02:16 PM
edit:double post below... oops:(

grodon9999
06-14-2011, 02:18 PM
It is post like the Ops that is so frustrating for alot of players. What it sounds like to me is the players in that group should not be running epic, but as we all know epic is the end game for all players :rolleyes: . What the devs should do is segregate the playing population more so this game can appeal to more different types of players. Alot of people would like to be playing end game that probably should not be playing epics and other people would like to play a more challenging end game, but are stuck with watered down easy quests called epic. You know what Turbine should realize that one size does not fit all. There is no such thing in the real world of one size where everybody has the same capabilities, knowledge, or ability going in, nor is the gaming world any different. Market the game differently. Make elite the end game and epic well should be an epic thing for players beyond elite.

Exectly, "Epic" was a collosal bucket of stupid. They should make additional level 20/21/22/etc . . . content with a N/H/E setting.

I'm sure the OP and his friends are capable of running other epics . . . but should Last Stand and EDA both be level 25?

voodoogroves
06-14-2011, 02:21 PM
It is post like the Ops that is so frustrating for alot of players. What it sounds like to me is the players in that group should not be running epic, but as we all know epic is the end game for all players :rolleyes: . What the devs should do is segregate the playing population more so this game can appeal to more different types of players. Alot of people would like to be playing end game that probably should not be playing epics and other people would like to play a more challenging end game, but are stuck with watered down easy quests called epic. You know what Turbine should realize that one size does not fit all. There is no such thing in the real world of one size where everybody has the same capabilities, knowledge, or ability going in, nor is the gaming world any different. Market the game differently. Make elite the end game and epic well should be an epic thing for players beyond elite.

Yes and no ... no player should assume that since they can do Last Stand or Big Top that the same group of six similarly-geared players can just waltz into OOB, Chains, WizKing, DA on epic.

They aren't numerically separated, but clearly some epics are harder than others. Just because you can do the easy ones doesn't mean the hard ones should be easy.

So ... let them in epics ... but the players should use their brain and recognize that some are harder than others AND THAT IS OK.

Kmnh
06-14-2011, 02:23 PM
The quest nerfing isn't limited to epics. they got rid of the wards on SoS, for example.

Guess what? Most casual players still don't run that quest. Maybe once, on casual, trying desperately to get a guide who can solo half the quest for them.

TheDearLeader
06-14-2011, 02:24 PM
. . . but should Last Stand and EDA both be level 25?

Does it particularly matter what "level" they put beside a quest/raid name? It's just a number, arbitrary and indicative of certain things, such as "this is probably harder than the Elite version of the same quest" (so far true for all Epics, since they are low-level quests grown up), and other such factors, like that mobs will have Epic Ward, in whatever flavor it happens to be in this week.

I'm less concerned about the number, and more with how we're treated at the end. At the end of Last Stand, you get about 30 token fragments, and maybe a seal. At the end of DA, you get 2 full tokens, and 2 chests capable of passing Shroud/Boot Mats, and a chance at an augment crystal that is unique to said chest.

The rewards are consummate with difficulty, and that is satisfactory. One can ignore the number beside the quest completely, and still be satisfied with the experience.

dingal
06-14-2011, 02:25 PM
/this.

Day one, beat it first try, used 12 pots between us.

Later, we rethought our strategies. More Discoballs, less Holds. More melee stuns (a 300 DPS monk with all the stuns is far better than a 400 DPS barbarian with no stuns in eDA). Less focus on 'kill everything fast' and more focus on 'keep everything under control'.

Results - smooth completions, 0-2 mana pots used each runs.

Later still, we honed our approach more, and got some speed back into it. We learned that you can burn mana in Phase 4. We built up our casting DCs and spell penetration. We figured out which melees in the guild were best to use as Turigulon tanks. Now, it's smooth, fast 0 mana pot runs, or 1-2 pots if someone makes a big mistake (like letting Discoballs expire in part 2 then getting tripped).

THat about sums it up. My progression in strategy mirrors that almost exactly. Disco balls are fantastic you just need good dps from some source to kill things while they are dancing. A good sorc can obliterate everything using mostly their pre while everything else dances.

Memnir
06-14-2011, 02:28 PM
Its a trap!
.
.
.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/its-a-trap.jpg
.
.
.
:D

bendover
06-14-2011, 02:29 PM
THF's no prize winner, either, if that's what you're implying.

HP are solid, yeah. But his gear is pretty lacking, unless you intentionally are swapping out of your useful gear whenever you log.

From a melee standpoint, he does less damage, and would have potentially lower combat DCs, than a similar toon with more gear from lower level content/easier Epics. He will take longer to DPS mobs, and provide less combat CC.

Also, being Warforged, his Healing Amp is likely limited to Healer's Friend I or II, if you bothered at all, and *possibly* one of three slots on your DT. Meaning that you're only slightly more fun to heal than a brick.

I'm not saying this in a bad way, or trying to be mean. I'm just saying neither of your capped toons live up to the potential of the classes they are playing in a PvE environment.

Not all level 20 toons will have the same "gameplay experience" inside eDA, or any other quest/raid of moderate difficulty. That does not necessitate a nerf.

Again, not trying to hurt your feelings, or be negative, in what has been said here.

Dear lord this ^^^

SiliconShadow
06-14-2011, 02:34 PM
Totally love how I got neg repped for asking for it to be made harder and best of all stealth neg repped so I will repeat myself.

Myself on a 40 charisma WF sorc with a 44int WF wizard two manned that quest using no potions, it was a walk in the park, FoD, Wail, Pwk constant disco ball in a single location and a ton of standing around waiting, the bosses went down hard to DoTs it is easy now so easy compared to how it is I don't think it will be too long before we see the token favoured soul solo completion.

This was one of the hardest epics to run now it is a boring wait in a small room.

ev5 was also a lovelly hard epic.. now also an easy joke we walked through with 4 people on the most part it was dire.. I really hate these epic changes I am so bored now it is unbelievable.

So stealth neg rep me no matter what you say or think, the changes make the game easy and eda is just one of the quests where it is now just a joke.

Kalari
06-14-2011, 02:34 PM
I am going to reiterate something I said in your Fighter taking 7 toughness posts Dispel. No I am not trying to be cruel but seriously you really need to stop making "nerf" or other posts about topics you have no hand in. If you've never played your caster in EDA how would you know it needs to be nerfed from that point of view? If your coming from your casters point of view why lie and say ya havent? there is no shame in admitting your learning when I was learning quests with my casters having sp pots was a crutch, one I had to ween myself off of because I did not like the feeling of constantly chugging to win.

If you had just come across as saying is there a way for casters to play this quest and not expend so much mana you could have gotten helpful tips. Instead you start up with "nerf" an word that many of us do not like and then go on about things you claim not to have first hand knowledge of.

So once again nothing personal but maybe play more posts less and come back in a few years once you have more under your belt before making such bold threads.

FastTaco
06-14-2011, 02:35 PM
It doesn't mean you aren't, either.


....... But maybe it could mean you aren't also?

I never touched epics for months when I started playing, I always thought I wasn't ready until I joined a good guild who showed me that I really was... got into epic house P first and thought "I could have done this long ago!" but I still knew eDA, some sands quests and others were still out of my league.

Point is don't take a first life freshly capped toon into epics, epics should be for skilled and geared toons. I *did* take my first life PM wizard into eDA with guildies, somewhat geared and I knew I would probably being drinking pots... and I did, it costed me 12 pots. My super wizard guildy pointed out stuff I was doing wrong, mainly trying to hold too much and some other stuff I was doing wrong and ion my second run I only drank 3 pots. I tr'ed before I tried again but I believe I could have gotten by with no pot usage, this is how epics should be... Not a joke like House P/D, red fens is pretty easy as well.

You will also need well geared melee because w/o enough dps you will have too spend too much sp cc'ing.

04pugdog04
06-14-2011, 02:40 PM
I know dispel and he is not i repeat not epic ready

Dispel
06-14-2011, 02:42 PM
I know dispel and he is not i repeat not epic ready

So says the guy who hits me for a 1 using an eAG when buffed up and "ready". =o

LVSammy
06-14-2011, 02:43 PM
2 arcanes (even better if one or both are PM's)
1 spellsinger,
1 healer
2 DPS

Best group to do eDA with. :D

edit -> to reinforce what folks are saying, no pots are ever needed

This is def NOT the best group for eDA.
First of all, 1 caster is plenty and it should be a wf AM prefferably necro/ench spec'd. Then two good high dps melees,and better if one has the gear/hp/amp of a hate tank, then a monk, warchanter, and finally healer(fvs/clr doesnt matter).

This is the group in which i've had best success/times with, tho we're still workin on tryin to beat that top time right now, but still usually complete in around 30 min, no pots (usually not even a bauble), no trouble.

Aurora1979
06-14-2011, 03:09 PM
So says the guy who hits me for a 1 using an eAG when buffed up and "ready". =o

Hi dispel, Ive not read the whole thread but I did have a look at dispel on myddo.

Is this you?

http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/dispel/

If it is I think I can see your problem. Its not that the quest needs nerfing or made easier. You have fallen into a classic newbies error, well actually, the knee jerk reaction from a newbie after they make the classic newbie error.

You have pumped your con waaaay to high. You dont need that much, and your CHA has suffered as a result.

You have the same sort of SP as a mediocre wizard for one thing.

I would suggest either TR, roll another sorc and max your prime stat (CHA) or, just avoid the difficult quests.

IMO you will always have more of a struggle the nessecery with your stats as they are.

LordPiglet
06-14-2011, 03:12 PM
So says the guy who hits me for a 1 using an eAG when buffed up and "ready". =o

pvp =/= epics

LordPiglet
06-14-2011, 03:14 PM
Hi dispel, Ive not read the whole thread but I did have a look at dispel on myddo.

Is this you?

http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/dispel/

If it is I think I can see your problem. Its not that the quest needs nerfing or made easier. You have fallen into a classic newbies error, well actually, the knee jerk reaction from a newbie after they make the classic newbie error.

You have pumped your con waaaay to high. You dont need that much, and your CHA has suffered as a result.

You have the same sort of SP as a mediocre wizard for one thing.

I would suggest either TR, roll another sorc and max your prime stat (CHA) or, just avoid the difficult quests.

IMO you will always have more of a struggle the nessecery with your stats as they are.

He's refering to his 20 fighter, who has goggles of insight and a ring of rage (1 clickie) showing MyDDO

elraido
06-14-2011, 03:14 PM
Wow, my favored soul can get up to 100 kills in there solo before he runs out of mana....and that is me basically running around bb's.

Aurora1979
06-14-2011, 03:16 PM
He's refering to his 20 fighter, who has goggles of insight and a ring of rage (1 clickie) showing MyDDO

ahhh my bad. just re read the OP.... first time i thought he was refering to himself as one of the casters.

04pugdog04
06-14-2011, 03:35 PM
So says the guy who hits me for a 1 using an eAG when buffed up and "ready". =o

I have never claimed to be good a pvp but I have beaten you in there. You claim to be epic ready and are not.

Enoach
06-14-2011, 03:38 PM
Common Reasons why people end up relying on Pots for Spell Points

1. Don't know any better
2. Over healing
3. Wrong Spells
4. Group as a whole is not ready to be in the Quest @ level picked - This does not mean individually they are not ready - just means as a group they are not ready. Example of this would be to take all of the greatest players of any sport and put them together on a team. Even this does not garrantee that they will be the UBEREST.
5. One or more of the members are not "Seasoned" enough and thus are not ready ready to be at the EPIC level

The problems I see in epic usually stems from people prematurely making the jump from standard (normal/hard/elite) questing to EPIC and just expecting it to be a little harder and it can be done the same way. EPIC level gains far more from teamwork than any of the other settings. Not saying people can't be carried through an epic quest, but at that level someone being carried is a lot more noticable.

Dispel
06-14-2011, 03:57 PM
He's refering to his 20 fighter, who has goggles of insight and a ring of rage (1 clickie) showing MyDDO

Those Goggles of Insight give me +1 to attack and that Ring of Rage is a useful clicky.

When I capped him, I never tried to gear him up aside from the MinII holy/acid/acid with force damage.

I put all my good stuff on Dispel. Like the eAG I'm putting on Dispel LOL..

Gkar
06-14-2011, 04:03 PM
Those Goggles of Insight give me +1 to attack and that Ring of Rage is a useful clicky.

When I capped him, I never tried to gear him up aside from the MinII holy/acid/acid with force damage.

I put all my good stuff on Dispel. Like the eAG I'm putting on Dispel LOL..

The goggles are top of the line, if not OP, lowbie gear. But we are talking L20? Are you having trouble hitting at L20? LOTS of better options.

Ring clickie... also useful at low levels, a total waste of an equipment slot by mid levels. How much do you think rage pots, that do the exact same thing, cost? They don't take an item slot.

Darkrok
06-14-2011, 04:10 PM
The goggles are top of the line, if not OP, lowbie gear. But we are talking L20? Are you having trouble hitting at L20? LOTS of better options.

Ring clickie... also useful at low levels, a total waste of an equipment slot by mid levels. How much do you think rage pots, that do the exact same thing, cost? They don't take an item slot.

In Dispel's defense unless you have Greater False Life, Heavy Fort, SP's, or your casting stat slotted in the ring slot you can use that rage clicky as just a clicky and swap back. I have no defense for slotting the goggles though. At the least if you insist on wearing goggles that only add to attack level your crafting enough to make them +2. Or add something else to them. Anything but only going +1 attack in a slot.

Even on my terribly equipped recently capped sorc I managed to replace my anathema with an evocation focus of persuasion crafted ring. Something like that takes very very little in the way of time to be able to craft.

Dispel
06-14-2011, 04:23 PM
I'd wear Starter Rags on him if Warforged could get some!

Just to see you guys derail my thread and complain about it.

Gkar
06-14-2011, 04:26 PM
I'd wear Starter Rags on him if Warforged could get some!

Just to see you guys derail my thread and complain about it.

It's not a derail, its actually on topic.

You suggested the quest was impossible without sp pots.

We are pointing out that the problem was probably just a poorly equipped party and/or poor strategies.

LordPiglet
06-14-2011, 05:21 PM
Those Goggles of Insight give me +1 to attack and that Ring of Rage is a useful clicky.

When I capped him, I never tried to gear him up aside from the MinII holy/acid/acid with force damage.

I put all my good stuff on Dispel. Like the eAG I'm putting on Dispel LOL..

Buy guild rage pots, they can be used while raged, get a better ring (6 wisdom or 6 dex for saves)

Here's what I step into epics with:

Helm: Minos
Armor: DT (10% amp, 20% amp, still farming a good sovereign rune)
Belts: 6 con, gfl (kormars, grid and morahs as hot swaps for clickies)
Ring 1: Veriks (+2 Exceptional Strength)
Ring 2: Oremi (+2 Exceptional Con)
Necklace: Veriks (swap with Oremi's for fighting Kratos)
Trinket: Arrowhead (Tier 3 epic Spyglass with +2 good luck swapable)
Goggles: Tharnes
Gloves: Spectrals
Bracers: Kendrak (hot swap to 5x rage clickie bracers)
Boots: Striders, Madstone, Delving Boots, FF, Anchoring, Boots of the mire
Weapons: 2x Lit II Kopeshes, 2x Min II Kopeshes, 2x Tier 3 Epic Cutlasses, 2 x Pos Pos Warhammers, Holy PG bow (those are my main, I also have smiters and everbrights)


You don't need epic gear to excel at epic. This is the same gear I had equipped while tanking the wave 4 and wave 5 bosses (my first time in EDA). Honestly, the cleric could have been scroll healing me, since I run over 200% amp. I took a crit heal in tod last night for 3099 hp. I don't have much epic gear because I've done 3 lifes on Arrael and I'm slow at TRing. I also have a lot of items I'm just missing one part to make epic.

You're farming gear, but not giving it to the character that needs it for running epics so you can farm gear, that's a fallacy. My FvS is better melee geared then your wanting to run epic fighter, he's atleast got a conners band (healing amp) arrowhead (+2 to hit) and Tharnes goggles.


If you want to epic with your melee, especially the hard ones, you need to devote some gear to him. It's a joke you're going to give your caster the that axe, especially with the scheduled improvements for it. You're chosing to gimp your melee and then complain it plays poorly in difficult quest. If you put even 1/2 the effort at improving in quests that you do to improve in PvP then you'd see a big difference.

NaturalHazard
06-14-2011, 07:20 PM
just did an epic DA, had me on my spellsinger gimp bard, a warforged sorc air savant. A dwarf favoured soul. and 2 fighters and 1 warforged barb. The sorc and I did the cc and my dc's on disco ball where slightly higher at 40. We completed, no deaths, no pots used, at the end fights the favoured soul and sorc had more than enough sp left to put dots and damage on the bosses.

So why do we need to nerf this quest?

SiliconShadow
06-14-2011, 10:27 PM
just did an epic DA, had me on my spellsinger gimp bard, a warforged sorc air savant. A dwarf favoured soul. and 2 fighters and 1 warforged barb. The sorc and I did the cc and my dc's on disco ball where slightly higher at 40. We completed, no deaths, no pots used, at the end fights the favoured soul and sorc had more than enough sp left to put dots and damage on the bosses.

So why do we need to nerf this quest?

I was the air savant sorc :D and hell naw it was a cake walk, the only risk in eda now is falling asleep between spawns.

NaturalHazard
06-14-2011, 11:52 PM
I was the air savant sorc :D and hell naw it was a cake walk, the only risk in eda now is falling asleep between spawns.


Ah its good to put a forum name to a in game charactor. Was fun, cool how our leader kept calling you gimp!! Though I with all that gear you got, I know hes joking.

Dispel
06-15-2011, 08:15 AM
I have never claimed to be good a pvp but I have beaten you in there. You claim to be epic ready and are not.

You've beaten me in there? Really? I don't recall going afk waking up dead.

I say SS or it didn't happen. I don't even have to block, I can stand there, let you trip me, etc.

You know this is true. Nothing personal, just defending myself against your claim.

Honestly? I think my caster would dish out more over-all DPS than your melee.. and save the healer's SP on heals.

Milfeulle
06-15-2011, 09:02 AM
People these days can solo eDQ1, eDQ2, and eDA, turbine should make epic level 50 not 25. I bet Dispel would delete his WoW account due to difficulty if he ever touched it.