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View Full Version : Silver-threaded and metalline handwraps -- again. :)



Therigar
06-11-2011, 10:31 PM
Alright, lots and lots of threads on lack of silver-threaded and metalline handwraps in the game. Unless the Turbine development team is stupid they've gotten the message by now.

So, here's my suggestion on how and where to fix the problem.

The first place you really need these wraps is the Shroud. So, how about fixing the end reward tables so that monks get a chance to pull silver-threaded and metalline handwraps from the flagging quests.

Note that they have to be holy (burst) silver-threaded or silver-threaded/metalline of pure good to be of any real value. But, this is a limited scope change and would take effect in the one area where it really starts to pay off to have these wraps.

dkyle
06-11-2011, 10:39 PM
Drop silver handwraps the same way silver weapons are dropped, and make metalline the same cost on wraps as on weapons.

That's all that's needed.

Therigar
06-11-2011, 10:45 PM
Drop silver handwraps the same way silver weapons are dropped, and make metalline the same cost on wraps as on weapons.

That's all that's needed.

You could be right. My thinking goes like this: What takes the least effort to impliment.

A change like you suggest involves changing the code on probably half or more chests in the game because every loot table has to be reworked.

A change like I'm suggesting involves changing 4 end rewards loot lists, 8 if they are also made available on the generic (not class specific) lists.

It is a more limited change and thus, maybe, easier to do. :)

Chai
06-11-2011, 11:14 PM
Reavers and renders appear in quests alot lower level than the shroud flagging stuff, and many need cold iron + good to break DR.

I would like to see players be able to make weapons of metallic qualities. We can magically disjunct and add magical properties to weapons, but we cant smith a silver blade?

Junts
06-11-2011, 11:16 PM
Another issue:

"Silver threaded" is treated as an undisjunctionable extra prefix: It counts as potential +1 all on its own, which means you can't craft as good metal handwraps as you can other weapons!

Shadowspawned
06-11-2011, 11:43 PM
Adding them to the end loot tables for the Amrath quest would make sense as well; gives those who missed out during their Vale runs a second chance. But really, almost anything would be better than the status quo.

andbr22
06-12-2011, 12:20 AM
Maybe some "Partial disjunction materials":
"Mystical plant" -> disjunct Enchantment and suffix (you receive enchantment spirit, suffix material and craftable weapon that already have prefix)...
Or at least give us metaline crafting

Therigar
06-12-2011, 01:24 PM
"Silver threaded" is treated as an undisjunctionable extra prefix: It counts as potential +1 all on its own, which means you can't craft as good metal handwraps as you can other weapons!

In a different thread I raised concerns about maximum character levels for crafted weapons. It was pointed out to me that a crafted weapon will max out at level cap, whatever the level cap happens to be, regardless of its potential.

For that reason I don't see this issue of potential as being problematic for handwraps. It is just a matter of waiting on recipes and crafting levels -- which may or may not end up letting people craft equivalent handwraps.

Even at that, my take on crafting is that players will be better off in many cases crafting with lower values, particularly on the weapon +, in order to decrease the minimum level of the weapon. Because I've recently read a thread saying that you can make changes on craftable items without deconstructing I'm of the opinion that players will be smart to start with +1 weapons in order to use them at the earliest possible moment.

And, I don't find the weapon + to be essential in my ability to hit or damage. So it is actually alright as far as I'm concerned if handwraps cap at +3 vs other weapons caps of +4. Honestly, that 1 point difference isn't going to make or break my character.

All of this discussion, however, is off on a tangent to my suggestion -- which is to introduce devil-beaters as end reward choices in the Shroud flagging quests. I'm aware that some people will insist on deconstructing and crafting and that's great if it is what they want to do.

I'm well aware that most monks are happy with Devouts out of Shadow Crypt if they can pull them. Those are +2 metalline of pure good. Anything similar -- or better preferrably -- at least gets us through the insane farming grind.

I'd even accept the farm of Shadow Crypt if I didn't have to reflag every time I wanted to run it.

There are multiple solutions to the issue of devil-beaters for monks. Crafting is one of them (would be easier if silver-threaded wraps fell on a regular basis). Farming Shadow Crypt and Devil Assault is another (would be easier if you didn't need to reflag). Adjusting all loot tables is a third (although it probably involves extensive coding effort). What I've suggested is a fourth (which I hoped would be seen as a fast and relatively easy solution).

Obviously, however, we can't seem to get to the point of finding a quick solution. Instead we have to have the ultimate solution (which is whatever our favorite answer happens to be). My favorite is to fix the loot tables so that metalline of pure good and silver-threaded wraps drop at the same rate as other mopg and silver weapons drop.

I just think that my favorite solution is unrealistic because it is too hard. So I'd hoped an easier solution would suffice.

Junts
06-12-2011, 01:30 PM
In a different thread I raised concerns about maximum character levels for crafted weapons. It was pointed out to me that a crafted weapon will max out at level cap, whatever the level cap happens to be, regardless of its potential.

For that reason I don't see this issue of potential as being problematic for handwraps. It is just a matter of waiting on recipes and crafting levels -- which may or may not end up letting people craft equivalent handwraps.

Even at that, my take on crafting is that players will be better off in many cases crafting with lower values, particularly on the weapon +, in order to decrease the minimum level of the weapon. Because I've recently read a thread saying that you can make changes on craftable items without deconstructing I'm of the opinion that players will be smart to start with +1 weapons in order to use them at the earliest possible moment.

And, I don't find the weapon + to be essential in my ability to hit or damage. So it is actually alright as far as I'm concerned if handwraps cap at +3 vs other weapons caps of +4. Honestly, that 1 point difference isn't going to make or break my character.

All of this discussion, however, is off on a tangent to my suggestion -- which is to introduce devil-beaters as end reward choices in the Shroud flagging quests. I'm aware that some people will insist on deconstructing and crafting and that's great if it is what they want to do.

I'm well aware that most monks are happy with Devouts out of Shadow Crypt if they can pull them. Those are +2 metalline of pure good. Anything similar -- or better preferrably -- at least gets us through the insane farming grind.

I'd even accept the farm of Shadow Crypt if I didn't have to reflag every time I wanted to run it.

There are multiple solutions to the issue of devil-beaters for monks. Crafting is one of them (would be easier if silver-threaded wraps fell on a regular basis). Farming Shadow Crypt and Devil Assault is another (would be easier if you didn't need to reflag). Adjusting all loot tables is a third (although it probably involves extensive coding effort). What I've suggested is a fourth (which I hoped would be seen as a fast and relatively easy solution).

Obviously, however, we can't seem to get to the point of finding a quick solution. Instead we have to have the ultimate solution (which is whatever our favorite answer happens to be). My favorite is to fix the loot tables so that metalline of pure good and silver-threaded wraps drop at the same rate as other mopg and silver weapons drop.

I just think that my favorite solution is unrealistic because it is too hard. So I'd hoped an easier solution would suffice.

The issue isn't hte minimum level. Its how much you can enchant them.

Right now, the biggest shard of potential available is shard +12.

This lets you make the following permutations on a normal weapon:

+4 holy burst of greater bane
+5 holy of greater bane w/ force ritual (force rit uses 1 potential, and cant be applied without a free potential available).

With handwraps, you're limited to

+3 holy burst of greater bane
+5 holy of greater bane without the crit ritual.

Its a good thing holy burst sucks for monks (due to tod rings and stacking), because it'd really suck to lose out on that to-hit. Instead, they lose out on 1 damage per swing.

However, this does also mean that any time you craft a silver handwrap for yourself during the leveling process it will be higher ml than an equivalent non-handwrap. If you intend to tr your monk with your silver handwraps and make it holy/undead bane for deleras>shadowcrypt>temple before switching it to evil outsider for shroud, you'll consistently have to make do with a lower or no enhancement bonus than you would doing the exact same thing with a silver falchion.

I doubt this is intentional, its just a factor of how the 'silver threaded' tag differs. You can also see it in screenshots, because, say, a +2 holy silver threaded handwrap is called "+2 silver threaded handwraps', because it cant list two prefixes.

The silver-threaded tag is just not properly designed at this time.

Therigar
06-12-2011, 02:09 PM
Right now, the biggest shard of potential available is shard +12.

But that should change as more crafting is added.


Its a good thing holy burst sucks for monks (due to tod rings and stacking), because it'd really suck to lose out on that to-hit. Instead, they lose out on 1 damage per swing.

IMO this is one of the problems. We should forget all about what can be done at later times. If we don't then we have no basis for our requests for changes. ToD rings and sufficient quantities of metalline handwraps means that anyone who gets to that point has devil beaters.

So what?

It is all too late to matter and too high a ML in any case. What is needed in the game is a reliable source of ML 14 handwraps that have either the metalline + good or silver-threaded + good attributes.


I doubt this is intentional, its just a factor of how the 'silver threaded' tag differs. You can also see it in screenshots, because, say, a +2 holy silver threaded handwrap is called "+2 silver threaded handwraps', because it cant list two prefixes.

The silver-threaded tag is just not properly designed at this time.

I don't care.

That is not the real issue.

I hope it gets fixed someday and silver-threaded becomes just a metal type that is restricted to handwraps. But, it is just a distraction that prevents us from dealing with the real issue.

The real issue is a lack of devil beaters for monks. This was addressed by Eladrin:


At the time that we created the tables, we figured that by level 18 most people would already possess decent devil-beaters, so they wouldn't be nearly as attractive as other stuff.

The fact is that most players do NOT possess decent devil beaters. That is the real problem and fixing that is the real issue.

The easiest way to fix the real problem is to stop focusing on the distractions of crafting and ML and silver-threaded blah, blah, blah.

The easiest way to fix the real problem is to insert ML 14-16 handwraps into the loot tables in the Shroud flagging quests that will be devil beaters.

Let's deal with the real problem and then we can worry about how unfair life is for monks when it comes to crafting.

ryingar
06-12-2011, 03:13 PM
Dont cold iron studded and silver threaded unbound handwraps drop in devil's assault?

Dasthug
06-12-2011, 03:24 PM
Dont cold iron studded and silver threaded unbound handwraps drop in devil's assault?

They have a very small chance to, yes. If you are implying that solves the issue of how maddeningly rare they are, you are absolutely wrong.

sebastianosmith
06-12-2011, 03:24 PM
I think the addition of a metallurgical alchemical process to the Cannith system would greatly improve everyone's life. Being able to bind a desired metal to any item would solve many, many problems. I'm not suggesting that it be easy or cheap; simply that it be possible.

Tinco
06-12-2011, 03:29 PM
The more bugs and concerns I see with wraps the more I'm inclined to say that the whole Handwrap-code needs to be redone somehow. That and the droprate issue which is just a joke from hell at the moment.

Therigar
06-12-2011, 06:04 PM
The more bugs and concerns I see with wraps the more I'm inclined to say that the whole Handwrap-code needs to be redone somehow. That and the droprate issue which is just a joke from hell at the moment.

I'm willing to believe that some developer somewhere is working on the critical issue with handwraps -- that being the failure to correctly apply the weapon + effect for to-hit and to-damage. I expect that this will eventually be made reliable so that various work-arounds are not needed and so crafted wraps function properly.

With that in mind, a targeted fix to the drop rate seemed like a good idea to me. I thought it would be a good thing to at least fix something that would require least amount of code rewrite by just adding devil beaters to the end loot for selected quests.

voodoogroves
06-12-2011, 06:07 PM
You know in one of these threads someone posted that they can drop anywhere now BUT the short description doesn't call out "silver" and you have to examine them to see.


That's given me serious pause. I need to pay more attention.

Therigar
06-12-2011, 06:12 PM
You know in one of these threads someone posted that they can drop anywhere now BUT the short description doesn't call out "silver" and you have to examine them to see.


That's given me serious pause. I need to pay more attention.

I think it is not as common as you may have been lead to believe. I run a lot of monk and monk splash characters. I always examine the handwraps in both chests and in end reward lists. And, I've been playing for a very long time.

I cannot ever remember getting silver-threaded wraps in any quest's random drop or as an end reward offering.

Not saying that they don't drop. Just saying that if they do then people are not noticing and they are not selling them on the AH. And, they haven't dropped for me.