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varusso
06-10-2011, 05:22 PM
OK, just failed this quest AGAIN. Anyone want to guess how? Yup. Someone killed the spiders.
Auto-fail mechanics like this make a quest SUCK.
I dont mind having the quest be challenging (its not). I dont mind having to run around all over the place looking for random-located items and bosses (boring but meh). What I DO mind is a game mechanic that can screw us well into the quest.

The most common tactic for this quest:
Part 1:
Kill everything and leave the journal alone till everything is dead. Works great, you can just wail on whatever you see, and clear the halls.
Part 2: Pick up the journal and run around some more after you kill the boss and get the key. Finger the ogres or beat em down with a stick, ignore the spiders and just eat their damage.
(Yes, I know there are certain exploits that you can use to bypass all of this, but thats something that needs to be fixed, not encouraged).

Now here is where the problem exists.
Mis-clicked/targeted attack can kill the spiders
Glancing/Cleave blows can hit (and sometimes kill) the spiders.
Guard effects can kill the spiders (Disintegrate Guard anyone?).
PM Death Aura can kill the spiders.
Any AOE-effect can kill the spiders.
Nub-tard who doesnt listen/doesnt get it, or closet griefer can kill the spiders.

All of these result in a failed quest, and accidentally killing (or intentionally for the griefer) 5 spiders is EASY.
Sure, dont do this or that blah blah. Everyone knows it still happens...and it happens enough to be extremely frustrating, especially if you have already been stumbling around in there for a while (or god forbid you got to the END) and it happens.

So, instead of an auto-fail, how about this.
Reduce the XP of the quest significantly. Let's say by half, for a starting point. Make the spiders an optional, and dump all of that XP into it. Groups do this quest for 3 reasons: XP, flagging, getting another piece of pie.
EDIT: svinja suggested also putting the Blank ingredient(s) in a chest you get for not killing 5 spiders as an optional.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3852205&postcount=32

Groups who do it for XP will still strive to NOT kill the spiders, but if it happens, they still get to at least complete without completely wasting their time -- or choose to recall out, reform, and do it again right -- as we are FORCED to do now.

Players who are in it to flag/get pie may or may not strive to save the spiders. I think most would, unless they are already overlvl or did the quest too much to get XP. They would still get to complete and get their goal without wasting all the invested time.

I recall a while back, seeing a dev post that they did not like the autofail mechanics in quests either, and were looking at ways to remove it, while still keeping the 'theme' of quests. Please consider this one.

And while you are at it, do the same thing in Book Binder. Getting tired of the NPCs I am trying to rescue zerging out of the room, hitting another trap and dying, or running into a corner, trying to tackle half the room while I am still walking through the door, and dying.

EDIT 2: Since it is obvious by some responses that many folks are not reading the entire thread, only responding to this post (not that i blame you, given its current length):
I appreciate the folks who are legitimately trying to help by offering advice on how to beat this quest. Thanks, but that is not the point of the post. I KNOW how to beat the quest, and can do so with relative ease while SOLOING the quest. The problem is with the mechanic, which makes it more likely to fail, the more people you add, just due to mistakes, communication problems (including language barriers), griefing, and other game mechanics which make it easier to fail it. The intent here is NOT to seek advice on how to make the run more successful. I already know how to do that. The intent is to petition for a removal of the ridiculously easy auto-fail mechanic, while still retaining enough incentive for most parties to still want to TRY and complete it the 'right' way. It would allow players who like the mechanic to still run it the way they like it, while removing a horrible penalty that can be easily triggered even at the very end of the quest, and no option but to do the ENTIRE quest over again. This is a horrible waste of time, and only encourages solo over group play, or avoidance of PUGs. Unlike wipes, an auto-fail is a completely dead quest. You cant hold the instance open and re-enter. You cannot recover from a fail; you can only start over from the beginning, losing all of the time and resources you invested.

Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk. Changing the mechanic really does not affect you. It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

Kushiel
06-10-2011, 05:39 PM
Auto-Fail with rediculously low trigger points is horrible. The players *time* should somehow be respected greater.

Reasonable sounding suggestions by the OP.

--

In addition we should get a huge chunk of additional optional XP at the end of East Threnal 3 by having an choice to turn on Coyle and kill him ourselves.

--

t0r012
06-10-2011, 05:47 PM
It is one of the few challenging objectives left, I loath to see it go away.

honestly though if you/your party can't keep from killing a mob it isn't the quests fault.

Narmolanya
06-10-2011, 05:52 PM
I don't like the idea of making it easier. Yeah it's very annoying if you have someone in the group that dosnt listen or whatever and in that scenario the quest will fail quick.

Since this quest came out I have only been in groups that have failed it maybe five or six times. It's not really that had to do it's just hard when someone dosnt listen and keeps killing the spiders. Slow down turn on auto attack and choose your target carefully or finger the orges to death, quick and easy. I find hunting for the second journal more annoying than the spiders personally.

LoveNeverFails
06-10-2011, 06:15 PM
It is one of the few challenging objectives left, I loath to see it go away.

honestly though if you/your party can't keep from killing a mob it isn't the quests fault.

this. I've run this quest at least 20 times, and actually never failed it.

varusso
06-10-2011, 06:16 PM
I believe i specifically said its not hard/challenging to do this quest. But there are too many silly things that can get the spiders killed, even at the very end. Its a bad mechanic. Anyone that claims they have never failed this quest has never pugged it. Or been with someone new to the quest who didnt get it. The autofail doesnt make it 'harder'. It makes it incredibly frustrating.

I could solo this quest blindfolded. I would like to not HAVE to solo the quest or only run with ppl I know for fear of failing it.

NinjaNeed
06-10-2011, 06:17 PM
/ NOT signed.

Yes this quest is annoying, but it is the way it is. It is one of the toughest parts of the quest, NOT killing the spiders. My main is a very high dps 2nd life barb, one swing with my lit 2 Falcion can accidentally kill 4 or 5 spiders. I hate this quest! It is one of only 2 Vale quests I can not solo (other being rainbow). But that is why I love it!

Most quests involve simple dps'ing a mob down before he can kill you, this one offers an interesting, if somewhat annoying, twist. DDO should be designed to give quests like this instead of simply seeing if we can kill a mob before it can kill us.

I personally want MORE quests like this. And love the new expansion packs due to their diversity (meaning final boss fights - a puzzle in the middle of the fight with adds spawning and spoiling the puzzle (monastery style!) and a wired giant thing immune to attacks until it damages weird things you need to hide behind.).

morticianjohn
06-10-2011, 06:20 PM
I like the quest even though I really can't or won't PUG it anymore. 0 for 6 in pug groups on this so I decided to solo it from now on. Still I appreciate it's place in the game and am fine with 1-2 quests being this way

jillie
06-10-2011, 06:36 PM
we should get a huge chunk of additional optional XP at the end of East Threnal 3 by having an choice to turn on Coyle and kill him ourselves.


/signed!!!!!!

flynnjsw
06-10-2011, 06:36 PM
1. Don't run with people that don't listen
2. Don't wear guards
3. Don't use two-handed weapons
4. ????
5. Profit

Lithic
06-10-2011, 06:43 PM
It really isn't hard to avoid killing spiders. One trick is to run it on hard as they have significantly more HP (and DR?) and wont be one shotted by the assasin rogue (guilty! heh).

Another is to send your highest sneaker near the spiders and sneak away. The mobs might hear, but only the spiders will follow very far, and then the rest of the party can zoom in and destroy whats left.

If thats too slow for you, then you just need to learn to zerg like a scalpel, not zerg like a bulldozer.

I do agree that there should be decent bonuses for auto-fail conditions. East THrenal 3 for example should be worth 20k on norm for the pain it is! heh.

Kushiel
06-10-2011, 07:10 PM
I'll agree that "protect the npc" type quests have a place in the scope of the world, and that they could be fun (or at least not as frustrating).

Brawnpits - thankfully has a goodly chunk of HP, dishes out a little incidental damage to the foes on the walk back to the wagon that is helpful, can be buffed up and healed as required... and there are good break-points between skirmishes where the party can regroup and recover while examining Brawnpits' condition.

Slavers of The Shrieking Mines - the monkey-men are low CON/HP idiots who die when sneezed on. They are mixed in with a kind that looks disturbingly similar that you can kill. But, thankfully, you get an almost enjoyable number of them to have fall along the way before failure.

Coyle. Ah Coyle - he has all the strength and fortitude of a single-ply sheet of toilet paper, soaking wet. That's while being buffed up and babysat by an attentive healer.

The Cannith Crystal - don't sneeze on it, it will break.

The Crystals to be broken in Lordsmarch Bank - take a serious sustained beating before finally shattering. The Mindsunder crystal at the end of Miseries Peak seems to be somewhere in the middle.

Probably some others I'm not thinking of right away. But, with the spiders, they are too few before failure. The failure can happen suddenly after sinking a lot of time into finally getting to the boss (RW paying customer time) with then nothing to show for it. It can be griefed. The spiders have Coyle-like AC/HP. It could be better. I'm not against "Hard" quests - I'd just like to see the condition for an absolute/unrecoverable fail take place moments after having started the attempt... not potentially hour(s).

Going forward if there are other introduced "protect the npc" type quests, that could be enjoyable if crafted in such a way that the players have more influence over the way the encounter plays out.

Beld
06-10-2011, 07:18 PM
Intim the spiders onto a melee type (easiest) and let the rest of the group pound the ogres or have the tank run in and get aggro (harder) and let the rest of the group pound the ogres (when I say pound, I mean finger/PK/destruct).

Alternately, if you are a caster heavy group, FtS the spiders and then kill the ogres. This also works very well in the end fight. Have the caster(s) FtS the spiders and the tank/melee pull everything else behind the wall.

If you don't kill any spiders, but kill everything else, there are two extra chests (one for not killing ANY spiders and one for killing EVERYTHING else).

If you get someone griefing, recall, reform and put on your list, simple (they will be hard to miss, as they will be the one with all the spider kills).

Wail/Implosion/THF/S&B (when attacking) are not good tactics in this quest because of the confined space and the precision required, but, the answer is to improve the tactics/spell selection necessary, not nerf another quest with the easy button because some don't like the mechanic.

As some have posted above, this quest is actually MUCH easier on hard/elite because the spiders don't get killed nearly as easily. :cool:

phalaeo
06-10-2011, 07:22 PM
They should maybe give the spideys more HP or a higher AC on Normal to give a little lee-way.

Standal
06-10-2011, 07:25 PM
I'm not going to /sign or /not sign this, but I doubt that 5% of PUGs would even consider attempting a save the spiders optional. Even if you made the optional worth 90% of the XP, the pie and flag is what's valuable. There's plenty of level 15-17 XP in the game now, so I wouldn't put up with the "don't kill the spiders" BS if I didn't have to. Just get me my share of a signet stone and flag.

I hate the quest, hate the spiders. Anybody wanna run it now? Seriously, I need the pie.

fluffybunnywilson
06-10-2011, 07:33 PM
If it gave me an extra shot at a funk, I'd kill every ogre in the quest and not spill a single drop of spider blood just so that I could run that quest fewer times.

Bargol
06-10-2011, 07:38 PM
I actually like this quest and run it solo on my sorc or wizard all the time. Its an easy quest and don't think I have ever failed it once. Yes I have been in pugs where a spider or two die, but you discuss it as a group and make the barb with the great axe pike for awhile so you don't fail.

The only protect the npc quest that is the biggest problem is threnal, but even that one has been seriously nerfed to make it easier.

stille_nacht
06-10-2011, 07:44 PM
i am ok with some fail conditions, but 5 spiders seems sort of random...

Mister_Peace
06-10-2011, 07:51 PM
Easy button, learn to play, in my day we uphill both ways in sleet storm while being eaten by spiders, get off my lawn.

voxson5
06-10-2011, 07:59 PM
Its fairly easy to solo this on a melee + healer hire, (lol, easier than some groups actually)


All you need is the shield from the diplomatic impunity quest (the one with the stone prison guard).
Shield of Reflecting (http://ddowiki.com/page/Shield_of_Reflecting)

-Run around & clear as normal, kill everything without prejudice, find the journal & wait until all sides are clear before reading it.

-Read journal

-Find & kill Kasi

-Take off your guards & equip anything that boosts your hps & saves (pop a planar gird, umd/clickie stoneskin etc)

-Equip a single handed weapon (I recommend a decent burst khopesh for high crit damage potential, even if you're not proficient) and the reflecting shield

-Use "q" or " backspace" in the main room to find the second journal & the corresponding path & head down to the doorway

Here's the trick:

-Open, run in & block -> wait for spiders to get turned to stone (does happen quite quickly, even with just a 17 DC)

-Kill ogres

-profit!


With a bit of practice you can do this without spider kills & then just turn into the butcher of bakersfield at the last fight.

Things to note:
-Sometimes you'll agro spiders before the ogre see's you, just back away a bit & let the stone proc & run back up & kill

-Single handed weapon (not bastard sword/ DA) means no glancing blows, so you can attack an ogre while a spider is on your back/flank

-There is no need to rush when going for the 2nd journal, taking a bit of time makes life a lot easier later on



I've done this multiple times now <30 minutes per run on a non-capped THF spec'ed WF pally, guildmate has done this with a capped 28 point dwarf THF fighter.

Let the funk farm commence!

varusso
06-10-2011, 08:48 PM
snip

ROFL this is SO wrong.
Gonna go farm a shield and try it out :D

To the folks who keep crying easy button/no challenge, you obviously do not comprehend what I said in the OP. Especially the jerk that tossed neg rep for it.

Gkar
06-10-2011, 08:51 PM
Mis-clicked/targeted attack can kill the spiders
Glancing/Cleave blows can hit (and sometimes kill) the spiders.
Guard effects can kill the spiders (Disintegrate Guard anyone?).
PM Death Aura can kill the spiders.
Any AOE-effect can kill the spiders.
Nub-tard who doesnt listen/doesnt get it, or closet griefer can kill the spiders.

Don't use AOE, including death aura.
Let the melee pike in the centre, the cleric/fvs/sorc/wiz in the group and solo/twoman the upper levels.

If you have killed no spiders there are only 4 in the final room so you can kill away in there.

varusso
06-10-2011, 09:37 PM
sigh...thank you to everyone of you well-meaning folks who have offered advice on how to 'correctly' complete this quest. I KNOW how to do it already, and can do so SOLO. What I would like is to be able to do it in a PUG, without worrying so much about boneheads and griefers, or simple game mechanics failing the quest.

And if players want to ignore the spider optional to get the pie/flag ... so what? The quest is good XP at-lvl and worth doing 'right' FOR the XP, so I think plenty of folks WOULD do it (I certainly would make the effort). But if they dont? so what. And if they screw it up, they can still complete, with a still-significant penalty for it.

Trillea
06-10-2011, 09:41 PM
And if players want to ignore the spider optional to get the pie/flag ... so what? The quest is good XP at-lvl and worth doing 'right' FOR the XP, so I think plenty of folks WOULD do it (I certainly would make the effort). But if they dont? so what. And if they screw it up, they can still complete, with a still-significant penalty for it.

This quest is one of the few that you have to NOT kill some things. It should stay that way. Not every quest should be able to be bull-rushed through, and this is one of those.

Memnir
06-10-2011, 09:47 PM
In Sleeping Dust - use Acid AoEs if you have to use an AoE at all.
Spiders are totally immune to acid, Ogres are not. Works great.

varusso
06-10-2011, 09:58 PM
In Sleeping Dust - use Acid AoEs if you have to use an AoE at all.
Spiders are totally immune to acid, Ogres are not. Works great.

This is a good suggestion, but I hesitate to use ANY type of AOEs, or really any spell other than FOD in the second part while in a group, as those "special" people in the group might interpret that as "ok boys, lets start whackin' 'em all!!"

Talon_Moonshadow
06-10-2011, 09:58 PM
While I don't like any quest with fail conditions.... it really isn't that hard to not kill the spiders with just a little care.

I think it is a mark of prefessionalism to be able to do this quest with zero spider kills, and the extra chest you can get.

In one memorial run, we did Elite...no spider kills. Had a couple of casters with us of course. Yet my rogue got the high kill count. And I even hung way back to not get spider agro, did not use assassinate (out of fear, since I have seen it kill things behind me before)....yet still was able to swoop in and get Ogre kills.

quite proud of that accomplishment actually. Since it took a lot of skill to pull that off.

Instead of hating the quest, try to look at it as a challenge. Find ways to be precise in your kills, even though it may not be your usual tactic.

Kushiel
06-10-2011, 11:01 PM
Simply, from my perspective, something that has originated in this thread that is meaningful and significant is...

...actual constructive comments that *could* situationally ease the pain of attempting to complete this mission. Even in a PUG.

There is some GOOD stuff here.

It doesn't negate the trouble that could be caused by griefers, or the accidental mishaps that could surface late into the mission. But it does provide solid tactics for people who go in together with the intention of maximizing the benefits/potential from completing.

However, where there have been a few comments along the lines of "it's not that hard to not kill spiders" or similar variations, it seems to require a party (Players) of certain skillsets and knowledge - and a willingness to play *together* that sometimes falls woefully short of successful completion. One cannot just hop in with the first five/any five and be hopeful of having enjoyment/time well spent.

The OP still has presented valid arguments for how situations in this quest can be... less than *fun* for the RW time investment, and the hopes of a simple flag/item run. I've only ran it a few times. Most have been fails. That probably needs and is reasonable to factor into my perception of the quest. ;-}

Sarisa
06-11-2011, 06:36 AM
There's a reason that this quest came up as #7 on the list of the most hated quests. 16 out of 206 replies listed this as their most hated quest.

Part of it was the instant fail condition.
Another important aspect is the randomness. It can take under a minute to find the first book, or it can take 20 minutes because you have to clear every bloody tunnel.

It's also another quest that, if you're a divine or arcane caster, it's easier to solo than it is to group until the final fight.

The Acid AoE suggestion, and the Shield of Reflecting are both great suggestions to make it less painful.

Dandonk
06-11-2011, 06:50 AM
"Don't use twohanders, twf (especially with assassinate), AOE spells, AOE abilities such as cleave, guards, or run with pugs/newbies"...

Now, I do like the idea of the quest. It's different to most "kill everything you see" quests in the game. It's cool.

As for choosing weapons/abilities/spells that fit the quest - cool.

But I think the penalty for actually running this with new people is too harsh. I don't believe quest mechanics should lead me to specifically refrain from pugging it (which is what I do atm - I only solo, or group-only it). Even most raids are more forgiving than this quest, which is a simple flagging quest.

Make the endboss a little harder with killed spiders (and fix the quest so you can't just kill every spider you come across and THEN read the book.... this is silly, IMO). Or spawn more ogres, or make traps appear, or make the spiders go boom when they die. And yes, perhaps make the "no kill spiders" part optional so it gives experience points - and lower the normal xp for the quest a bit to compensate.

Something, anything, but making experienced players stay away from new players. Any game mechanics that do this to such a large degree is bad for the game, IMO.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-11-2011, 10:11 AM
In Sleeping Dust - use Acid AoEs if you have to use an AoE at all.
Spiders are totally immune to acid, Ogres are not. Works great.

Wish I could give you more rep...but I guess I have to spread some around first.

Once again you have taught me something I did not know/consider. thx.

I'm officially elevating you to the status I give MrCow and Ghoste, as some of the very few people that can give me creative advice. :D

svinja
06-11-2011, 10:25 AM
Even though I don't mind the quest, and don't recall ever failing it even in a PUG, if it is really so difficult with new people, considering it's a mandatory shroud flagging quest, how about this:

- no fail condition
- 50% XP for completion, 50% for saving the spiders
- you get stone for completion
- you get blank ingredient for saving the spiders

This would mean that new players or people who hate this quest would be able to complete it and flag/get stone, but you couldn't just zerg a very easy quest (which it would be with no-fail) repeatedly to farm either XP or funks. You can trade other ingredients for funks, so even if you are utterly incapable of doing the optional, this doesn't prevent you from making GS eventually.

However, if you wanted to really benefit from doing this quest by farming it for XP/funk, you would have to be capable of doing it properly. If you can't do the quest properly, don't expect to be able to farm it for secondary benefits it provides (primary being shroud flag/stone). The result would probably be that almost all groups would try not to kill the spiders, but even if they failed it wouldn't be a complete quest failure.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-11-2011, 10:31 AM
The biggest "trick" IMO is simply learning to not panic!

Ignore the spiders.

Don't be in a hurry to kill the Ogres. Take your time, and make sure you will only hit the Ogres. Melees can go in first. Get agro. Wlak right up to an Ogre at point blank range. Hard target the Ogre, and then turn on autoattack, and continue to press your body right up against the Ogre.

Stay together.

Bring your own pots.

If Spiders are attacking you, there is an Ogre somewhere nearby. (unless you dragged the spider halfway through the dungeon. :( )

Do not use THanded weps. Sword and Board make sense here. Use it.

Buff up. So you can take some Spider damage while you take your time to line up a clean Ogre shot.

Avoid Hirlings and pets. And charms.

Paralysers are good.....but not on the spiders! Whoever thought it was safe for their 100Str Barbarian to swing a paralyser at a Spider must have dumped Int and Wisdom.

Paralysers keep the Ogre right in front of you. And keep his fists off of you.


Killing even one spider....from the moment you enter the quest....loses an extra chest at the end.

Killing all of the Ogres gets you another extra chest.

(when you can do Sleeping Dust...and get three end chests.....you will have learned.)


Anyone can Max Str and Con and swing a great Axe.
What marks a good player is learning how to kill with finesse....when a horde of "friendlies" is attacking you as well.



Casters.
PK, FoD.
Harmless CC....like Hypno, and Holds.
(and I guess Acid spells....learn something new every day. ;) )
Flesh to Stone is good for the end fight. But not necessary.
MM and Force Missiles should only hit your intended targets.


Ranged guys can use Precise shot (turn off Improved Precise Shot)

The problem is mostly that players just hve never had to do anything other than swing with reckless abandon, up until this quest. They never learned how "not" to kill.

varusso
06-11-2011, 11:03 AM
- no fail condition
- 50% XP for completion, 50% for saving the spiders
- you get stone for completion
- you get blank ingredient for saving the spiders


Better. This allows ppl to flag, with or without the spiders, keeps the XP incentive, and adds in the ings incentive. Plenty of reasons for people to make realistic attempts at doing it right, while removing the steep penalty of doing it wrong. And players still have the option of recalling and doing it right if they screw it up.

Player choice > complaints about 'easy buttons'.

+1 to you

Aashrym
06-11-2011, 11:16 AM
It really isn't hard to avoid killing spiders. One trick is to run it on hard as they have significantly more HP (and DR?) and wont be one shotted by the assasin rogue (guilty! heh).

Another is to send your highest sneaker near the spiders and sneak away. The mobs might hear, but only the spiders will follow very far, and then the rest of the party can zoom in and destroy whats left.

If thats too slow for you, then you just need to learn to zerg like a scalpel, not zerg like a bulldozer.

I do agree that there should be decent bonuses for auto-fail conditions. East THrenal 3 for example should be worth 20k on norm for the pain it is! heh.

I do the opposite and fascinate the spiders then pull what I can kill away. No sneaking and goes a bit faster.

Aashrym
06-11-2011, 11:16 AM
Wish I could give you more rep...but I guess I have to spread some around first.

Once again you have taught me something I did not know/consider. thx.

I'm officially elevating you to the status I give MrCow and Ghoste, as some of the very few people that can give me creative advice. :D

I proxied it for you. It's good advice. (edit: unfortunately I don't think my approves are as impacting as your approves)

Aashrym
06-11-2011, 11:24 AM
@OP

I like fact this quest (and others) require more than just run in and kill everything game play. The quest itself is easy if a person knows not to kill the spiders and how to kill everything else anyway.

The concern where I agree is with griefing, so I would propose a penalty box system if someone does kill a spider. Not sure how to implement it, but basic concept is kill a spider, out of gameplay, out of end loot.

Enoach
06-11-2011, 11:36 AM
I see this quest as a change in pace to the Hack and Slash that many of the quests are filled with and actually rather enjoy it.

I have been in enough failed runs to understand where the OP is coming from, and by failed runs I mean getting the you failed quest message, not the you didn't get the optional chest. However, I can attribute these to the following in order of there common occurance:

1. Epeen (I gota get the highest kill count because I is UBER)
2. Rushing
3. Two Handed Weapon Use
4. Two Weapon Fighting Use
5. Guards
6. AoE Damage/Insta kill Spells
7. New person(s) to the quest - Not given specific instruction - And not listening to the DM text when the journal is picked up. There is a reason why the spiders killed prior to the journal being picked up do not count...You didn't know.
8. New person(s) to the quest, that won't listen to the specific instructions period.

However, I guess I have been very fortunate not to have been grouped with a griefer. For griefers there is only one solution, and that is to restart without them. I don't believe Turbine can do anything else outside of a Harrassment notification.

I realy don't want to see this quest changed.

As noted earlier. Spiders are immune to acid. Also a note put away piercing weapons as that will bypass their DR.

While the FtS is a good option, it does come with a lot of SP usage - even if you are just zerging to the books to get it done fast. I have found since the last Spell Pass that a very good spell for dealing with the large groups of spiders is DEEP SLUMBER. The spiders do not have a very high will save. What this effectively does is eliminates the jumping spiders that can get in the way, and it allows you to drag the Ogres to you. Instead of you going to them. This will help reduce the danger to the party and risk to killing too many spiders.

badbob117
06-11-2011, 11:48 AM
I once got right to the end well only killing one spider along the way do to not paying attention and casting slay living on one. Then at the last boss fight i accidentally clicked implosion. The **** hit the fan so to speak. Mission failed....

Moral of this story has nothing to do with quest objectives. It has to do with me having implosion right beside heal!!! Hence i was being a "nub-tard". Lesson learnt. I did not moan and groan about the quest or its crazy objectives. I did not blame ddo for making such a insane quest design. I blamed myself for being a putz and not paying attention.

The quest is fine. Leave it as is. In the words of the OP=Don't be a "nub-tard" and everything will work out. :D

arminius
06-11-2011, 12:15 PM
Also good for melee use is blunt or slashing weapons that are holy or holy burst of greater giant bane. The weapon doesn't bypass dr, and spiders are immune to holy and of course giant bane. This isn't a get out of jail free card on normal, of course, since the spiders are too easy to kill even with the club of the holy flame. But I've found on hard and elite it is good enough to prevent collateral damage.

Krelar
06-11-2011, 01:18 PM
@OP

The concern where I agree is with griefing, so I would propose a penalty box system if someone does kill a spider. Not sure how to implement it, but basic concept is kill a spider, out of gameplay, out of end loot.

How about when someone kills a spider the rest swarm the character, wrap them up in a cocoon, and drag them off to their layer which can only be opened from the outside. If the rest of the party so chooses they can go rescue the person or leave them for spider food. :p

Aashrym
06-11-2011, 03:09 PM
How about when someone kills a spider the rest swarm the character, wrap them up in a cocoon, and drag them off to their layer which can only be opened from the outside. If the rest of the party so chooses they can go rescue the person or leave them for spider food. :p

I think that would be comical. I like it.

bigolbear
06-11-2011, 03:35 PM
/not signed

although i apreciate where you are coming from i feel the devs got this one right - they let you make 4 mistakes. thats prety reasonable when i look back and consider the old coyle, and of curse the mumies that must be kept alive.

those quests have since been changed and i have to say my desire to run either of these quests is not what it was, despite screaming blue murder at the time i realise now i actualy enjoyed the challenge.

My suggestion is make quests like these where u have to babysit npcs way more tolerant on casual/normal, as they are on hard, and much more stringent on elite.

elite should mean no mistakes, bring the right team, prepare thy self.

DrNuegebauer
06-11-2011, 03:46 PM
this. I've run this quest at least 20 times, and actually never failed it.

I agree with this!
To the OP /not signed!!!

Where's the problem here?

Just don't kill the spiders. Heck - you can even kill 4 spiders and still not fail!

It's really not that hard.

HallowedOne
06-11-2011, 03:49 PM
You can't have the same kind of challenges everytime. You need different challenges so you don't get bored with the game.

LordPiglet
06-11-2011, 04:00 PM
1. Don't run with people that don't listen
2. Don't wear guards
3. Don't use two-handed weapons
4. ????
5. Profit

Use acid based weapons or paralyzers for melee. Spiders are immune to acid.


OK, just failed this quest AGAIN. Anyone want to guess how? Yup. Someone killed the spiders.
Auto-fail mechanics like this make a quest SUCK.
I dont mind having the quest be challenging (its not). I dont mind having to run around all over the place looking for random-located items and bosses (boring but meh). What I DO mind is a game mechanic that can screw us well into the quest.
(snipped)


You're missing the point, the challenge of the quest is that you have to think and can't blindly kill every single mob you run across like all other quests in the game (but 1). Obviously if you're failing, this quest is challenging.

Unreliable
06-11-2011, 04:03 PM
its not that difficult, if you have party members that cannot read that spiders should not be killed then you should reform with people who can.

This basic principle applies to many other things too.

Bargol
06-11-2011, 04:26 PM
Killing even one spider....from the moment you enter the quest....loses an extra chest at the end.

-snip


You give some good advice in your post, but this comment is not correct. It only counts from the moment of picking up the book.

fluffybunnywilson
06-11-2011, 04:28 PM
You give some good advice in your post, but this comment is not correct. It only counts from the moment of picking up the book.

And you have to pick up the first book before the end fight in order to get the extra chest. You won't get the extra chest by picking up the second book, then killing the Rakshasa and then picking up the first book.

Bargol
06-11-2011, 04:34 PM
And you have to pick up the first book before the end fight in order to get the extra chest. You won't get the extra chest by picking up the second book, then killing the Rakshasa and then picking up the first book.

This is true. I was pointing out that the no killing of spiders only starts by picking up a book....not as soon as you enter the quest. So if you are in a pug and unsure of your pug-mates clear out all the lower tunnels first before picking up the book. This will leave only the upper tunnels and can maximize the potential for no spider kills. Before picking up the first book the THF barbs can kill everything and will not trigger the failure of losing the extra chest.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-11-2011, 06:01 PM
You give some good advice in your post, but this comment is not correct. It only counts from the moment of picking up the book.

Hmmm....

Always willing to admit that I might be wrong..... but....

I have never seen all three chests in a group that enters the quest, and thinks it is ok to kill spiders before picking up the first book.

And I have seen all three chests in groups that did not kill any spiders from the moment they entered the quest.

Plus I've been told that that is how it works, by some people I trust, here on the forums.

Things change of course. And the Devs never tell us when they change. Or how they are suppose to work anyway.... So the exact details are of how something works are sometimes hard to pin down.

But currently, that is how I think it works.

Sry if I'm wrong.

I might try to experiment a little next time I do it, if I can find a willing party to help me. (or try to solo on my caster)

Aeolwind
06-11-2011, 06:14 PM
Only ever failed this quest once, and that was when my buddy hit wail instead of FoD. Kinda humorous in retrospect.

"F*ck!"
"What?"
"Wail."
"You failed!"
"Oh...."

I just throw my stun hammer on and a shield when I run it on my fighter. Equip spectacles of spirit sight with my cleric. I've passed before even running the cove cutlasses and never popped a spider till the last room.

PNellesen
06-11-2011, 08:58 PM
It is one of the few challenging objectives left, I loath to see it go away.

honestly though if you/your party can't keep from killing a mob it isn't the quests fault.

Much as I understand the OP's frustration, I have to agree with this. It's challenging in a way that most other quests aren't - you don't have to be an expert puzzle solver, you don't have to have a rogue with some ridiculously high trap DC, you don't need a dedicated tank, you don't even have to keep a mentally deficient NPC alive; you simply have to be able to understand your gear, your spells, and your weapons so that you minimize the "collateral damage" you and your party do. Seems simple enough, until you realize your Mabar cloak just killed one of the spiders ;) (happened to me :p )

Diib
06-11-2011, 09:08 PM
Hmmm....

Always willing to admit that I might be wrong..... but....

I have never seen all three chests in a group that enters the quest, and thinks it is ok to kill spiders before picking up the first book.

And I have seen all three chests in groups that did not kill any spiders from the moment they entered the quest.

Plus I've been told that that is how it works, by some people I trust, here on the forums.

Things change of course. And the Devs never tell us when they change. Or how they are suppose to work anyway.... So the exact details are of how something works are sometimes hard to pin down.

But currently, that is how I think it works.

Sry if I'm wrong.

I might try to experiment a little next time I do it, if I can find a willing party to help me. (or try to solo on my caster)


Talon, you are not wrong, that is still how it works. If you clear the spiders first you make the fail condition less likely to be met... so the quest is easier, but you ABSOLUTELY lose a chest for doing it this way.

Memnir
06-11-2011, 09:46 PM
To get the spider chest - you have to kill zero spiders, from start to finish. Even before picking up the book.
You can get one other additional chest for killing all the Ogre Magi.

If I've killed a spider before picking up the book, I've never gotten the extra chest - even with killing none of the five after picking it up.

Bargol
06-12-2011, 02:52 AM
Hmmm....

Always willing to admit that I might be wrong..... but....

I have never seen all three chests in a group that enters the quest, and thinks it is ok to kill spiders before picking up the first book.

And I have seen all three chests in groups that did not kill any spiders from the moment they entered the quest.

Plus I've been told that that is how it works, by some people I trust, here on the forums.

Things change of course. And the Devs never tell us when they change. Or how they are suppose to work anyway.... So the exact details are of how something works are sometimes hard to pin down.

But currently, that is how I think it works.

Sry if I'm wrong.

I might try to experiment a little next time I do it, if I can find a willing party to help me. (or try to solo on my caster)

My comment was based on having not failed this quest in forever and usually getting all three chest even in pug groups, but since you seemed insistant you were correct I felt it helpful to prove one of us right. I ran sleeping dust multiple times tonight on my sorc to test out the chest mechanics.

You are in fact completely right and I was wrong.

If you kill even one spider the right of the 3 chests will disappear. If you kill no spiders the right chest will be there with a spider standing next to it.

The center chest is for completing the quest and has the pie piece and material.

The left chest you get for killing all of the ogre magi.

Zanuzi
06-12-2011, 03:11 AM
not signed.

power is nothing without control.

learn self control.

Meeky
06-12-2011, 06:18 AM
/not signed
although close to coal this is one of my most disliked quests but offers a challenge of understanding.

an understanding NOT to summon a pet at the end fight.

Tammuz
06-12-2011, 06:16 PM
It is one of the few challenging objectives left, I loath to see it go away.

honestly though if you/your party can't keep from killing a mob it isn't the quests fault.

I never had a problem with it myself at least.



I'll agree that "protect the npc" type quests have a place in the scope of the world, and that they could be fun (or at least not as frustrating).

Brawnpits - thankfully has a goodly chunk of HP, dishes out a little incidental damage to the foes on the walk back to the wagon that is helpful, can be buffed up and healed as required... and there are good break-points between skirmishes where the party can regroup and recover while examining Brawnpits' condition.

Slavers of The Shrieking Mines - the monkey-men are low CON/HP idiots who die when sneezed on. They are mixed in with a kind that looks disturbingly similar that you can kill. But, thankfully, you get an almost enjoyable number of them to have fall along the way before failure.

Coyle. Ah Coyle - he has all the strength and fortitude of a single-ply sheet of toilet paper, soaking wet. That's while being buffed up and babysat by an attentive healer.

The Cannith Crystal - don't sneeze on it, it will break.

The Crystals to be broken in Lordsmarch Bank - take a serious sustained beating before finally shattering. The Mindsunder crystal at the end of Miseries Peak seems to be somewhere in the middle.

Probably some others I'm not thinking of right away. But, with the spiders, they are too few before failure. The failure can happen suddenly after sinking a lot of time into finally getting to the boss (RW paying customer time) with then nothing to show for it. It can be griefed. The spiders have Coyle-like AC/HP. It could be better. I'm not against "Hard" quests - I'd just like to see the condition for an absolute/unrecoverable fail take place moments after having started the attempt... not potentially hour(s).

Going forward if there are other introduced "protect the npc" type quests, that could be enjoyable if crafted in such a way that the players have more influence over the way the encounter plays out.


No. NO. NO.

NO Escort Missions (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EscortMission)

suszterpatt
06-12-2011, 06:25 PM
On one hand, during leveling my TR I ran the quest at least 5 times, all pugs, no fail.


On the other hand, on one of the runs I killed a spider that appeared to be behind me. Not kidding, I swing, spider behind me pops floaties and dies. Lag can be a cruel mistress.


All in all, I don't think the quest needs changing, but maybe I just have really good luck with pugs.

Junts
06-12-2011, 06:56 PM
Auto-Fail with rediculously low trigger points is horrible. The players *time* should somehow be respected greater.

Reasonable sounding suggestions by the OP.

--

In addition we should get a huge chunk of additional optional XP at the end of East Threnal 3 by having an choice to turn on Coyle and kill him ourselves.

--

This isn't possible because Coyle is a main factor in the storyline of threnal south, which is only unlocked by doing east. If he's dead, threnal south can't occur.

DaSawks
06-12-2011, 07:06 PM
This quest is so easy.

1. Enter.
2. Kill everything on the lower level.
3. Jump up to the second level. (requires Monk, FVS, or Air Sorc)
4. Kill everything on second level.
5. Pick up second book.
6. Kill bosses.
7. Pick up first book.
8. Complete.

Angelus_dead
06-12-2011, 07:08 PM
OK, just failed this quest AGAIN. Anyone want to guess how? Yup. Someone killed the spiders.
Auto-fail mechanics like this make a quest SUCK.
One specific error in this quest is Dungeon Scaling.

Dungeon Scaling reduces enemy hitpoints with the intention of making the quest easier. If lowering their hp instead makes it harder, then Dungeon Scaling shouldn't lower those monsters' hp.

zebidos
06-12-2011, 07:27 PM
Its fairly easy to solo this on a melee + healer hire, (lol, easier than some groups actually)


All you need is the shield from the diplomatic impunity quest (the one with the stone prison guard).
Shield of Reflecting (http://ddowiki.com/page/Shield_of_Reflecting)

-Run around & clear as normal, kill everything without prejudice, find the journal & wait until all sides are clear before reading it.

-Read journal

-Find & kill Kasi

-Take off your guards & equip anything that boosts your hps & saves (pop a planar gird, umd/clickie stoneskin etc)

-Equip a single handed weapon (I recommend a decent burst khopesh for high crit damage potential, even if you're not proficient) and the reflecting shield

-Use "q" or " backspace" in the main room to find the second journal & the corresponding path & head down to the doorway

Here's the trick:

-Open, run in & block -> wait for spiders to get turned to stone (does happen quite quickly, even with just a 17 DC)

-Kill ogres

-profit!


With a bit of practice you can do this without spider kills & then just turn into the butcher of bakersfield at the last fight.

Things to note:
-Sometimes you'll agro spiders before the ogre see's you, just back away a bit & let the stone proc & run back up & kill

-Single handed weapon (not bastard sword/ DA) means no glancing blows, so you can attack an ogre while a spider is on your back/flank

-There is no need to rush when going for the 2nd journal, taking a bit of time makes life a lot easier later on



I've done this multiple times now <30 minutes per run on a non-capped THF spec'ed WF pally, guildmate has done this with a capped 28 point dwarf THF fighter.

Let the funk farm commence!

What he said.

+1 rep.

varusso
06-12-2011, 07:59 PM
This quest is so easy.

1. Enter.
2. Kill everything on the lower level.
3. Jump up to the second level. (requires Monk, FVS, or Air Sorc)
4. Kill everything on second level.
5. Pick up second book.
6. Kill bosses.
7. Pick up first book.
8. Complete.

This would be one of the exploits i was referring to NOT using.

And once again, I am not looking for advice on how to beat this quest. I can beat this quest easily SOLO. It becomes exponentially easier to fail the more people you add. It simply does not make sense to be forced to solo a quest in order to increase the likelihood of succeeding, due simply to a mechanic that no one actually *LIKES* and simply defends it on the theory that it makes a quest harder. It doesnt actually make the quest HARDER, just more frustrating due to such an easy auto-fail mechanic. You can only control what the other 5 people do so much. The fact that everyone has an easy way to beat the quest only confirms that. When the result of a game mechanic is to encourage soloing just to get around the likelihood of triggering that mechanic, it is a bad mechanic.

And for those who insist that the mechanic should stay because it is 'so easy to NOT kill the spiders' ... then why does it matter to you if the mechanic is taken away? You can already complete it every time without killing the spiders, so just do that. The quest doesnt change for you, except when you PUG.

ceiswyn
06-13-2011, 06:54 AM
It simply does not make sense to be forced to solo a quest in order to increase the likelihood of succeeding, due simply to a mechanic that no one actually *LIKES*

I like it.

I like having to fight with precision and thought and care rather than just rushing in killing everything. I actively enjoy it.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that nobody likes a thing just because you do.


and simply defends it on the theory that it makes a quest harder.

And that's why other people like it too. Some people like the challenge.


And for those who insist that the mechanic should stay because it is 'so easy to NOT kill the spiders' ... then why does it matter to you if the mechanic is taken away?

Because then the quest just becomes a mindless hack'n'slash like all the others. The variety of the challenge in quests is one of the things that makes DDO better than the 'kill everything and take its loot' of, say, WoW; let's keep it that way.

alexp80
06-13-2011, 07:06 AM
/ NOT signed.

Yes this quest is annoying, but it is the way it is. It is one of the toughest parts of the quest, NOT killing the spiders. My main is a very high dps 2nd life barb, one swing with my lit 2 Falcion can accidentally kill 4 or 5 spiders. I hate this quest! It is one of only 2 Vale quests I can not solo (other being rainbow). But that is why I love it!

Most quests involve simple dps'ing a mob down before he can kill you, this one offers an interesting, if somewhat annoying, twist. DDO should be designed to give quests like this instead of simply seeing if we can kill a mob before it can kill us.

I personally want MORE quests like this. And love the new expansion packs due to their diversity (meaning final boss fights - a puzzle in the middle of the fight with adds spawning and spoiling the puzzle (monastery style!) and a wired giant thing immune to attacks until it damages weird things you need to hide behind.).

Totally agree.

I would like to see more quest with objectives different from "kill this" or "kill that".

Btw, if you find that easy killing spiders accidentaly, do the quest hard/elite... spiders are less squishy and harder to kill.

Anyway there are A LOT of different strategies to complete the quest fast and smooth

Chai
06-13-2011, 07:11 AM
I like Sleepig Dust. Its a great quest.

Not being able to kill spiders breaks us out of the brute force wade in and kill habbit. We have to think of what works and what doesnt rather than just equip the weapon that gives us the best damage numbers and start swinging. Holy greater giant bane weapons rule in there because they barely do any damage to the spiders while hitting the ogres for alot of damage. Fearsome armor is also a good tactic.

alexp80
06-13-2011, 07:12 AM
[...] to a mechanic that no one actually *LIKES* and simply defends it on the theory that it makes a quest harder. It doesnt actually make the quest HARDER, just more frustrating due to such an easy auto-fail mechanic. You can only control what the other 5 people do so much. The fact that everyone has an easy way to beat the quest only confirms that. When the result of a game mechanic is to encourage soloing just to get around the likelihood of triggering that mechanic, it is a bad mechanic.

And for those who insist that the mechanic should stay because it is 'so easy to NOT kill the spiders' ... then why does it matter to you if the mechanic is taken away? You can already complete it every time without killing the spiders, so just do that. The quest doesnt change for you, except when you PUG.

This is a mechanic that YOU don't like, don't assume all the players have your same opinion.
And, if you find this quest THAT annoying, you are not forced to do it more than once to flag for Shroud.

Quests like this are a few, you will find plenty of hack'n'slash quest where you will be able to play the way you like the most :)

Bunker
06-13-2011, 07:16 AM
Hack and slash does not require any skill. So when it actually comes to a point in the game where NOT doing something is important, that is why so many ppl fail.

If one shoting monsters is the problem, run on a higher difficulty. If there are group members that still can't resist killing any and everything, don't group with them.

There is always a solution. IE I ran with a wizard that loved to spam wall of fire and cone of cold. He just wouldn't let up cause he said his instance-kill DCs were crappy. Refused to stop using AoE. I suggested using only acid spells. He could spam to his hearts content and no spiders would be hurt.

My point is that there is always a solution to group make-up and fellow group issues. Asking the devalued to change a quest that is broke makes sense, but if you haven't exhausted all your options in solving your grouping issues, why trouble the devs.

varusso
06-13-2011, 09:01 AM
I like it.

I like having to fight with precision and thought and care rather than just rushing in killing everything. I actively enjoy it.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that nobody likes a thing just because you do.



And that's why other people like it too. Some people like the challenge.



Because then the quest just becomes a mindless hack'n'slash like all the others. The variety of the challenge in quests is one of the things that makes DDO better than the 'kill everything and take its loot' of, say, WoW; let's keep it that way.

It only becomes a hack fest if YOU (your group) want it to be. If your group wants to zerg it and kill everything, thats fine. Put the ings a chest for NOT killing the 5 spiders, like another poster suggested, and there are plenty of incentives to NOT kill the spiders, but you CAN kill them if you just want a piece of pie and flag. And if the group doesnt want to do it the same way you do? Like any other quest, drop group and make your own -- or go solo it.

As I said the theory that this mechanic makes the quest HARDER is incorrect; it only makes it more frustrating. YOu can completely remove the problem by soloing. Thats bad design.

varusso
06-13-2011, 09:06 AM
This is a mechanic that YOU don't like, don't assume all the players have your same opinion.
And, if you find this quest THAT annoying, you are not forced to do it more than once to flag for Shroud.

Quests like this are a few, you will find plenty of hack'n'slash quest where you will be able to play the way you like the most :)

I never once even implied that 'everyone' hates this mechanic. You cant make a single opinion-based statement about the game (or ANY game) and have it universally apply. But there IS a significant portion of the playerbase that DOESNT like this mechanic.

I would like to see an LFM for Dust and NOT avoid it because of the likelihood that I will waste 1/2 hour in a group that ends up failing it. Some of us have limited game time and would like to not waste it because of a silly easy auto-fail. That promote soloing rather than group play. Its an MMO -- its supposed to support group play while ALLOWING solo play, not directly encouraging it with bad design.

Darkrok
06-13-2011, 09:37 AM
/notsigned

I was dreading it but I ran the quest last night with my 7 year old son. Once I got him to put away the Jolly Roger Bombs and I stopped mis-targeting my FoD's we completed just fine.

If a 7 year old can do it...well, let's just create a new game show - "Can you play DDO as well as a 7-year-old?" :)

Talon_Moonshadow
06-13-2011, 09:45 AM
This quest is so easy.

1. Enter.
2. Kill everything on the lower level.
3. Jump up to the second level. (requires Monk, FVS, or Air Sorc)
4. Kill everything on second level.
5. Pick up second book.
6. Kill bosses.
7. Pick up first book.
8. Complete.

There are still one or two of us left in the game who actually enjoy playing quests, more or less as intended.

(and somehow still manage to find it easy.)

Memnir
06-13-2011, 09:53 AM
let's just create a new game show - "Can you play DDO as well as a 7-year-old?" :)
Sadly, I think a great many adults I've gamed with would fail this challenge.
7-year-olds' have amazing reflexes. :D

Enoach
06-13-2011, 10:10 AM
I never once even implied that 'everyone' hates this mechanic. You cant make a single opinion-based statement about the game (or ANY game) and have it universally apply. But there IS a significant portion of the playerbase that DOESNT like this mechanic.

I would like to see an LFM for Dust and NOT avoid it because of the likelihood that I will waste 1/2 hour in a group that ends up failing it. Some of us have limited game time and would like to not waste it because of a silly easy auto-fail. That promote soloing rather than group play. Its an MMO -- its supposed to support group play while ALLOWING solo play, not directly encouraging it with bad design.

To be fair you actually did imply this with the use of the phrase no one as posted in the quote. That phrase is a universal statement...

I am sorry that you feel that running this quest solo is more productive then grouping, it is sad to hear that you seem to run into others that won't listen or make this quest less productive for you. This quests difficultly is actually directly related to the ACTIONS taken by WE the players.

The only suggestion that I can come up with is to look for those who wish to accomplish this quest the same way you do - without killing any spiders.

Darkrok
06-13-2011, 10:22 AM
Sadly, I think a great many adults I've gamed with would fail this challenge.
7-year-olds' have amazing reflexes. :D

Unfortunately they also have obsessions with Jolly Roger Bombs. :)

It all balances out. ;)

Chai
06-13-2011, 10:29 AM
This would be one of the exploits i was referring to NOT using.

And once again, I am not looking for advice on how to beat this quest. I can beat this quest easily SOLO. It becomes exponentially easier to fail the more people you add. It simply does not make sense to be forced to solo a quest in order to increase the likelihood of succeeding, due simply to a mechanic that no one actually *LIKES* and simply defends it on the theory that it makes a quest harder. It doesnt actually make the quest HARDER, just more frustrating due to such an easy auto-fail mechanic. You can only control what the other 5 people do so much. The fact that everyone has an easy way to beat the quest only confirms that. When the result of a game mechanic is to encourage soloing just to get around the likelihood of triggering that mechanic, it is a bad mechanic.

Many people actually like that mechanic. It gives the quest come character, and makes it not just another beatdown quest where moar dps = better.


And for those who insist that the mechanic should stay because it is 'so easy to NOT kill the spiders' ... then why does it matter to you if the mechanic is taken away? You can already complete it every time without killing the spiders, so just do that. The quest doesnt change for you, except when you PUG.

We have been running that quest since late 2007, and theres no shortage of people running the shroud. The issue isnt the quest.

We insist the mechanic stay because it makes for a multi-dimensional game, in this quest as well as other quests, where players have to think before they act, and actually have to pay attention to the quest objectives, which are something different than "kill everything in the quest up to the boss then kill the boss."

Talon_Moonshadow
06-13-2011, 10:33 AM
Sadly, I think a great many adults I've gamed with would fail this challenge.
7-year-olds' have amazing reflexes. :D

When the Tower of the Twelve appeared in the Market during the Devil Invasion, the only way I got to see what was up there, past the Mario jump challenge, was to walk over to my daughters computer, after she made it to the top...with relative ease. :o

rest
06-13-2011, 10:40 AM
So do you think they should turn the lights on in Rainbow too?

NUDS
06-13-2011, 10:48 AM
This quest is so easy.

1. Enter.
2. Kill everything on the lower level.
3. Jump up to the second level. (requires Monk, FVS, or Air Sorc)
4. Kill everything on second level.
5. Pick up second book.
6. Kill bosses.
7. Pick up first book.
8. Complete.

I actually found this out by accident when soloing, now this quest is bearable when farming for pie pieces!

I can just nuke everything, I even made a point to kill every single spider in the quest while skipping Ogres :P

Yeah take that, nature!

Darkrok
06-13-2011, 11:20 AM
I actually found this out by accident when soloing, now this quest is bearable when farming for pie pieces!

I can just nuke everything, I even made a point to kill every single spider in the quest while skipping Ogres :P

Yeah take that, nature!

Now you guys have me curious...would it be possible to do this quest in a stealthy fashion, killing the three bosses and two ogre guards at the end only?

Adrian99
06-13-2011, 11:27 AM
Now you guys have me curious...would it be possible to do this quest in a stealthy fashion, killing the three bosses and two ogre guards at the end only?

Probably not, because the spiders have true seeing. But assuming you can jump to the 2nd level, and assuming that both the first book and the first ogre-mage show up in the area before the main room, then you would have very little fighting.

Darkrok
06-13-2011, 11:33 AM
Probably not, because the spiders have true seeing. But assuming you can jump to the 2nd level, and assuming that both the first book and the first ogre-mage show up in the area before the main room, then you would have very little fighting.

That's right...spiders have tremor sense.

I'm tempted to try it though, waiting on the cooldown for the wind walking at each spot. I wonder if they'd 'see' you if you flew over top of them. Would be another nice variation on the quest if it could be pulled off. Maybe try a hold monster any time you get caught as well.

Musouka
06-13-2011, 11:58 AM
I love solo farming for funk in there on my Earth Savant.

Spider=Acid immune :P

Thrudh
06-13-2011, 12:10 PM
To the folks who keep crying easy button/no challenge, you obviously do not comprehend what I said in the OP. Especially the jerk that tossed neg rep for it.

Griefing is the only real problem you pointed out in the OP.

The rest of that, play differently in this quest... Don't use cleave, or even Two-handed weapons. Don't use AOE spells. Play carefully... Pull the spders and ogres apart.

FtS the spiders at the end-fight helps a LOT.

I've done this quest in PUGs a hundred times, and only failed 2 or 3.

Thrudh
06-13-2011, 12:12 PM
This is a good suggestion, but I hesitate to use ANY type of AOEs, or really any spell other than FOD in the second part while in a group, as those "special" people in the group might interpret that as "ok boys, lets start whackin' 'em all!!"

Communicate. If you get a griefer, you'll have to reform... that part does suck, but it happens very rarely.

One of my TRs is about to hit the Vale again... I'll see if PUGs have gotten worse since the last time I was in there.

Thrudh
06-13-2011, 12:14 PM
Even though I don't mind the quest, and don't recall ever failing it even in a PUG, if it is really so difficult with new people, considering it's a mandatory shroud flagging quest, how about this:

- no fail condition
- 50% XP for completion, 50% for saving the spiders
- you get stone for completion
- you get blank ingredient for saving the spiders

This would mean that new players or people who hate this quest would be able to complete it and flag/get stone, but you couldn't just zerg a very easy quest (which it would be with no-fail) repeatedly to farm either XP or funks. You can trade other ingredients for funks, so even if you are utterly incapable of doing the optional, this doesn't prevent you from making GS eventually.

However, if you wanted to really benefit from doing this quest by farming it for XP/funk, you would have to be capable of doing it properly. If you can't do the quest properly, don't expect to be able to farm it for secondary benefits it provides (primary being shroud flag/stone). The result would probably be that almost all groups would try not to kill the spiders, but even if they failed it wouldn't be a complete quest failure.

Decent compromise... but here's the thing... I don't really want people who cannot adapt or communicate to get exp or flag for Vale

Cyr
06-13-2011, 12:21 PM
I too was never a fan of this quest. IDK, but to me there is something wrong with a quest design when it is far faster and easier to just solo it...before DS.

Most amusing part of this quest and others like it is that they are actually easier on harder difficulties.

Thrudh
06-13-2011, 12:22 PM
I like Sleepig Dust. Its a great quest.

Not being able to kill spiders breaks us out of the brute force wade in and kill habbit. We have to think of what works and what doesnt rather than just equip the weapon that gives us the best damage numbers and start swinging. Holy greater giant bane weapons rule in there because they barely do any damage to the spiders while hitting the ogres for alot of damage. Fearsome armor is also a good tactic.

Yes, a quest that makes us use different tactics is good.

varusso
06-13-2011, 12:24 PM
So do you think they should turn the lights on in Rainbow too?

Not even close to the same thing. You dont auto-fail that quest. Even if you wipe, you can hold it open and save your progress while the rest of the party releases, hits the tavern, then comes back in. In Dust, you have to start over form the beginning, even if you were in the last room.

I would, however, support smoothing out the ramps in Coal :D
Tired of getting stuck on them in those wierd lag-hiccups when the server cant seem to figure out where you actually are.


Many people actually like that mechanic. It gives the quest come character, and makes it not just another beatdown quest where moar dps = better.

We have been running that quest since late 2007, and theres no shortage of people running the shroud. The issue isnt the quest.

We insist the mechanic stay because it makes for a multi-dimensional game, in this quest as well as other quests, where players have to think before they act, and actually have to pay attention to the quest objectives, which are something different than "kill everything in the quest up to the boss then kill the boss."

Thats what optionals are for. You can straight-line for the end and complete, or you can do the optionals for better loot/xp/other things. I dont want the 5-spider penalty taken out completely. I want it moved off to the side into an optional that carries enough reward by itself to still make it an enticing lure for players to do it. Putting a healthy chunk of the quest XP in it (and taking it away form the main xp) gives XP-runners an incentive. Putting the Ings in a chest that you only get by NOT killing the spiders gives an incentive for those farming ings. Both cases require you to complete the quest EXACTLY as you do now, so you can 'customize' your difficulty of the quest for your own party. For those who JUST want to get the pie and flag, you can either kill the spiders or dont. If you do, you still get to flag and pie without having to redo the entire quest. Whether killing them was intentional or not.

It just does not make sense to have a quest that encourages solo play, due to a mechanic that is so easily triggerable. In a group, run it on elite with a full party so the mobs have more HP, making it LESS likely to fail on a harder setting -- honestly, does that make sense to anyone? As opposed to running it solo on norm or casual to make it ridiculously easy on the other end of the spectrum (assuming the soloist knows what they are doing of course).

Chai
06-13-2011, 12:31 PM
Decent compromise... but here's the thing... I don't really want people who cannot adapt or communicate to get exp or flag for Vale

This.

I feel there HAS to be other quest mechanics than "move forward, kill, move forward again, kill moar..." - this is what separates DDO from many other MMOs. I like quests like the pit, coal chamber, rainbow, sleeping dust etc, because they bring more to the table than DPS = victory.

I almost wish it was MORE of a sticking point and not less. Coal chamber already got easier with the air lifts, and rainbow got easier with archons providing light.

But alas, there is no shortage of players running the shroud, so I dont feel the issue is the quest mechanics, but the particular groups lack of ability to follow them. Not only does the DM narrate what needs to happen when a player picks up the first book, but the quest objective changes to (fail) do not kill 5 spiders or more. Usually at least one player knows whats up too, and informs the group. If someone is killing spiders repeatedly after that, they are either not paying attention, or griefing the party. Just what we need in the shroud, right?


Thats what optionals are for. You can straight-line for the end and complete, or you can do the optionals for better loot/xp/other things. I dont want the 5-spider penalty taken out completely. I want it moved off to the side into an optional that carries enough reward by itself to still make it an enticing lure for players to do it. Putting a healthy chunk of the quest XP in it (and taking it away form the main xp) gives XP-runners an incentive. Putting the Ings in a chest that you only get by NOT killing the spiders gives an incentive for those farming ings. Both cases require you to complete the quest EXACTLY as you do now, so you can 'customize' your difficulty of the quest for your own party. For those who JUST want to get the pie and flag, you can either kill the spiders or dont. If you do, you still get to flag and pie without having to redo the entire quest. Whether killing them was intentional or not.

So youre asking for an easy flagging button where you can plow the quest with DPS front to back. I dont agree with this. I agree with the post above, where 6 players should be able to communicate enough to get through it, or they just dont flag.


It just does not make sense to have a quest that encourages solo play, due to a mechanic that is so easily triggerable. In a group, run it on elite with a full party so the mobs have more HP, making it LESS likely to fail on a harder setting -- honestly, does that make sense to anyone? As opposed to running it solo on norm or casual to make it ridiculously easy on the other end of the spectrum (assuming the soloist knows what they are doing of course).

It doesnt encourage solo play, it encourages up to six players to communicate and cooperate. There are no shortage of players running the shroud so there should be no issue finding five other players to run the quest with who are on the same wavelength as you are.

Heck, we run this in permadeath and succeed regularly. The first time we ran it in PD, we let the first timers who had never done vale quests before figure it out, and we succeeded.

If communicating, reading and following quest objectives, is really a hard thing to do, do you want the individuals who mess your completions up to advance into the Shroud with their same demonstrated lack of ability to follow directions and communicate?

Kushiel
06-13-2011, 12:49 PM
One thing we've already seen in this thread is confusion over whether killing all spiders before book pick up does or does not kill a chest.

I imagine there will be people who run the quest who have not been avidly following this discussion (the portions of it that were actual discussion) and can start off their journey together in an argument over what they can/can't do in the quest. That'll be fun. And then, even if they reach agreement... and play well together... something can go wrong at the very end (after their use of time)... and everyone walks away with nothing.

Another thing that has come up is that many people Do Not Consider The Quest To Be Hard. They are not asking for [Easy Buttons] because they cannot complete the quest. They routinely successfully solo it, get their goodies and call it a win.

There seem to be valid points made about areas the mechanism could be touched up and... it would not necessarily impact those of you who Enjoy the concept and can Easily do it already; while, maybe, more frequently opening up game content to others who, maybe still not finding it *fun* could at least more reasonably complete it.

If I was You, if I had your Gear, if I had your Twitches, if I played that Character - maybe I too would be able to say with great authority, "That quest is Easy." (Which, to those of you who in this thread have said that, I'd like to have you contrast it with the statement, "That quest is Easy for me." It's different. The quest is what it is. Some may find it easy, some may find it hard. Some may be able to take the usable bits of information from here and become more successful at doing it (solo, or in a communicative group, or maybe even a blind PUG).

The piece of this mechanism, for this quest and in others like it, that I hate the most is that it is all too often a WASTE of my RW time. As they move forward and introduce more quests that have mechanisms like this, I just want the dev's to keep in mind some of the good augmentations suggested in posts above. There are ways to tweak the mechanism to still "punish" the charcters - but not be a complete waste of a paying customers time.

[It is not *Hard* to protect Coyle, even on elite. It is just a stupid use of time that after ~12 minutes of frantic effort, resourse use, maybe a death or two... a Huge Rust Monster can appear practically on top of him and club him to death with one shot. Or that the PK hounds on their last, late to the fight round, destroy him in one shot.]

There is a better balance, I believe, for the concepts/fail-conditions/principles of missions - key ones that are flags for additional content too - and the time investment of the player.

Some of you here have given good insight to the specific quest behaviors, and provided knowledge about obscure things. That is far, far better than a simple, "the quest is Easy (for me)" reply. I'm grateful for your contributions.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-13-2011, 01:15 PM
One thing we've already seen in this thread is confusion over whether killing all spiders before book pick up does or does not kill a chest.

I imagine there will be people who run the quest who have not been avidly following this discussion (the portions of it that were actual discussion) and can start off their journey together in an argument over what they can/can't do in the quest. That'll be fun. And then, even if they reach agreement... and play well together... something can go wrong at the very end (after their use of time)... and everyone walks away with nothing.

Another thing that has come up is that many people Do Not Consider The Quest To Be Hard. They are not asking for [Easy Buttons] because they cannot complete the quest. They routinely successfully solo it, get their goodies and call it a win.

There seem to be valid points made about areas the mechanism could be touched up and... it would not necessarily impact those of you who Enjoy the concept and can Easily do it already; while, maybe, more frequently opening up game content to others who, maybe still not finding it *fun* could at least more reasonably complete it.

If I was You, if I had your Gear, if I had your Twitches, if I played that Character - maybe I too would be able to say with great authority, "That quest is Easy." (Which, to those of you who in this thread have said that, I'd like to have you contrast it with the statement, "That quest is Easy for me." It's different. The quest is what it is. Some may find it easy, some may find it hard. Some may be able to take the usable bits of information from here and become more successful at doing it (solo, or in a communicative group, or maybe even a blind PUG).

The piece of this mechanism, for this quest and in others like it, that I hate the most is that it is all too often a WASTE of my RW time. As they move forward and introduce more quests that have mechanisms like this, I just want the dev's to keep in mind some of the good augmentations suggested in posts above. There are ways to tweak the mechanism to still "punish" the charcters - but not be a complete waste of a paying customers time.

[It is not *Hard* to protect Coyle, even on elite. It is just a stupid use of time that after ~12 minutes of frantic effort, resourse use, maybe a death or two... a Huge Rust Monster can appear practically on top of him and club him to death with one shot. Or that the PK hounds on their last, late to the fight round, destroy him in one shot.]

There is a better balance, I believe, for the concepts/fail-conditions/principles of missions - key ones that are flags for additional content too - and the time investment of the player.

Some of you here have given good insight to the specific quest behaviors, and provided knowledge about obscure things. That is far, far better than a simple, "the quest is Easy (for me)" reply. I'm grateful for your contributions.

I am not sure if there is a single quest in the game that I currently consider to be truly "hard" to complete.
Even if I am on a new server with only what gear I have pulled from chests as I level up.

But that is mostly because of experience. Knowledge is power. Knowing the quest really is half the battle.

But the day the Vale first came out, I did Sleeping Dust with a group that had no idea about the quest.
And we completed it!

The quest objective was clear enough and when we realised that we were not suppose to kill spiders......we didn't!

We did almost wipe near the end, but it had nothing to do with the spiders. But we retreated to the shrine and went on to finish.

No Green Steel. No level 20s. At level...first time. With no spoilers.

It was challenging, and it was fun.

It got easier and easier every time I did it of course.
Just as every other quest has.




Now...protecting Coyle....that was hard!
Back in the day when you could not even heal him...let alone knock him out!

But we learned how to do that too.
(CC ftw! And every possible way to get agro.)
And it got easier as time went on.

In fact, I would argue that the newest version is not even fun anymore. (of course I suppose the only fun that ever was, was the fun of being smart enough to actually complete that one.)


I do not want every quest dumbed down so that just anyone can walk in, swing an axe....and complete!

But I do not want any quest to be uncompletible by new guys either.

However, I have PUGed Sleeping Dust probably a hundred times, and I think I have only seen one or two failures. (although I have seen lots of screaming 'DO NOT KILL THE SPIDERS!!!!!!" :rolleyes: )

Kushiel
06-13-2011, 01:47 PM
Something is the way it is.

Changes are made that alter the accessibilty.

Statements of [Easy Buttons] and "dumbing down" ululate though the realm.

The processes of making content more appealing to a greater number of players, of in creasing the time they want to put effort into the game, and possibly bringing more pure *fun* into wandering about the place trying new things (instead of jack-booting through the known successful formulae for completion), is not a horrible thing to do to ones customers.

It would be an interesting set of data points if more quests had some options as described above, where players could make the attempt with a different scale of rewards based on how forgiving they want a given mechanism to be with their time over how much of a Hard-core, unforgiving experience they are willing to endure. Over some number of weeks, months, (years?) it would be an insightful look at the community regarding how often folks honestly chose the most "challenging" scenario. [Especially when there is XP on the line, and maybe a real-world money purchased bonus pot ticking away, and the results of failure may seem more meaningful.]

ceiswyn
06-13-2011, 02:50 PM
And then, even if they reach agreement... and play well together... something can go wrong at the very end (after their use of time)... and everyone walks away with nothing.

So... how exactly does that differ from every other quest in the game?


If I was You, if I had your Gear, if I had your Twitches, if I played that Character - maybe I too would be able to say with great authority, "That quest is Easy."

None of those things are relevant for this quest, though. You don't need great gear. You don't need amazing reflexes. You don't need a particular character. You just need to be able to think at the level of 'maybe I'd better not swing my vorpal greataxe in here then'.

And if that's too hard, well then; there's just no helping some people.

But maybe the reason people are finding that a problem is because it's so alien to all their previous quest experience? Maybe there should be more quests like Dust or Faithful Departed, so that people get familiar and comfortable with the tactics required, and don't fail through silly mistakes like guard items? ;)

Kushiel
06-13-2011, 03:26 PM
For Ceiswyn who asked how exactly reaching the end of this quest and failing would that be different from any other quest in the game (my paraphrasing). An example somewhere above was talked about how this quests' auto-fail mechanism prevents a party from having the quest held open so that some can regroup and come in again.

When a fail happens early on into a quest, it is a reasonable learning curve (I believe) and can provide a means for people playing together to agree on an approach. When it happens deep into a quest, by a mechanism of the game that is so purely punative to the effort and time of *the customer* (where there are examples of how to scale optional rewards differently) - it has just been a waste of time (and possible resoureces, and potential future companionship).

To the other part of Ceis' response: I did not state that "great gear" was needed, I just attempted to point at how differing peoples gear does have a bearing on the quest (avoiding Guards, CON/HP bumpers to take the spiders beatings, non-piercing weaps, other things mentioned in posts above that may have been new to folks). One may not need "amazing" reflexes - but the better a person is able to Twitch away or towards hitting the right foe with the right keyboard/mouse button, the more likely they are to succeed. Characters built with certain attribute spreads, feat selections, skills applied, and 'options' for journeying through the quest seem to succeed more frequently (posts above from the arcane casters, for example).

There is room, I believe, to balance the content where there are a variety of options for rewards based on a players effort and time. I may be alone in this... but where there is content that presents me with such unforgiving possible outcomes for my use of time, I dislike it in the extreme and I avoid it more often than not. [From discussions scattered in another thread or two, thankfully there is a semi-abundance of XP in the game... because it permits skipping some stuff that is PITA, or giving it a random try and moving on whether it is completed or not.]

I think I can, for myself, conclude that quests -whether they ultimately are completed or not - where I feel that my time (my Real-World, currency spending, *fun* seeking time) was not abused, are quests that I'll come back to gladly. Potent foes, difficult terrain, unexpected environments, clever twists in dialog choices are great. Having a variety of ways to counter/recover when presented with those things is enjoyable. A blanket Fail, much like blanket Immunities - are, to me, limiting and far less *fun.*

ceiswyn
06-14-2011, 02:57 AM
For Ceiswyn who asked how exactly reaching the end of this quest and failing would that be different from any other quest in the game (my paraphrasing). An example somewhere above was talked about how this quests' auto-fail mechanism prevents a party from having the quest held open so that some can regroup and come in again.

True, I suppose in that respect it is different from a standard party wipe.


To the other part of Ceis' response: I did not state that "great gear" was needed, I just attempted to point at how differing peoples gear does have a bearing on the quest (avoiding Guards, CON/HP bumpers to take the spiders beatings, non-piercing weaps, other things mentioned in posts above that may have been new to folks). One may not need "amazing" reflexes - but the better a person is able to Twitch away or towards hitting the right foe with the right keyboard/mouse button, the more likely they are to succeed. Characters built with certain attribute spreads, feat selections, skills applied, and 'options' for journeying through the quest seem to succeed more frequently (posts above from the arcane casters, for example).

Well, that's definitely the same for every other quest in the system :) The thing is, you don't need any of the gear people have talked about. There are a lot of cunning strategies and gear-choices you can use to make the quest easier, but you can run it fine without any of them (I have - often) because it's just not that hard a quest.

Your armour is your guard item? Take it off and run the quest in gimpy deathblock armour, or naked; the bad guys don't actually do that much damage. Only have piercing weapons? Hang around at the back of the group until there's an opportunity to hit an ogre that's not too close to spiders. You might still kill a couple of spiders that way, but hey, you can kill up to four.

I have run that quest with a lot of gimped groups - and my alts not the least gimped among them - and honestly, the only way you fail that quest is through carelessness and rushing.


I may be alone in this... but where there is content that presents me with such unforgiving possible outcomes for my use of time, I dislike it in the extreme and I avoid it more often than not. [From discussions scattered in another thread or two, thankfully there is a semi-abundance of XP in the game... because it permits skipping some stuff that is PITA, or giving it a random try and moving on whether it is completed or not.]

You are not alone in this, but this thread alone has thrown up a number of people who do enjoy this style of quest. A real need to think rather than run and use just a little bit of tactics, for high stakes; what's not to like? :)

Changing it to be an option for rewards changes one of the fundamental things that makes the quest fun for those of us who like it. If you remove the 'fail' condition, you remove the extra adrenaline that comes from the thin dividing line between success and failure. You just can't replicate the feeling of 'you might fail the quest' with 'you might lose an extra chest'.

As you say, there's abundant XP in the game. Don't like Dust? Just run it once for flagging and never return again. Maybe the people who enjoy Dust are greatly outnumbered by the people who don't; but that's why there aren't many of these quests around. Don't try to take one of the few of them that exists away.

There is, on the other hand, an argument to be made that a quest in a style many people dislike shouldn't be a required quest for flagging the best raid in the game. I don't know how I feel about that. Rather selfishly, I like it where it is; that way at least I can find a group for it. Nobody ever seems to run Faithful Departed :)

Nysrock
06-14-2011, 03:20 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet but as a caster when using Finger or PK in here make sure you turn off auto-target and hard target (mouse-over and click instead of tab) your targets. That way if another caster kills the Ogre your targeting first then you don't have to worry about your spell going off an a hapless spider.

cforce
06-14-2011, 08:39 AM
Looks like its been beaten to death at this point, but in case it needs strength in numbers:

You can count me among the folks who think failure conditions are a lot of fun, in general -- this particular quest is no exception. The possibility of failure and "losing the invested time" makes the victory sweeter. Other quests that I've enjoyed because of this element:

- Threnal South (back when Coyle was *truly* suicidal)
- VoN 2 (back when falling off was a failure)
- Stealthy Reposession

These quests are few and far between, and shouldn't be eliminated. There are plenty of quests I don't particularly like because they can't be soloed -- but I'm not going to go around and demand every quest in the game be solo-friendly just because it would suit me best.

Different strokes for different folks == more players in game == more development budget == more content period == more content I'm bound to like.

Fensen
06-14-2011, 11:40 AM
I think the fail condition is not the real problem in this quest. If you are forced to run without a caster or if you try it solo with a melee type and hireling, off hand damage is the real issue. And I do not mean from two handed weapons either. I am talking about off hand damage from a one handed weapon. Even with targeting the orgres and making sure no spiders are between me and the target, the attacks still do damage to the spiders. I know the damage is not coming from my hireling because I very quickly learned to park the hireling far away from the fight. If there is a way of stopping the off hand damage, I would love to know. I don't mind having to be careful; I do mind quest failure for reasons that seem beyond my control.

Schmoe
06-14-2011, 11:47 AM
I think the fail condition is not the real problem in this quest. If you are forced to run without a caster or if you try it solo with a melee type and hireling, off hand damage is the real issue. And I do not mean from two handed weapons either. I am talking about off hand damage from a one handed weapon. Even with targeting the orgres and making sure no spiders are between me and the target, the attacks still do damage to the spiders. I know the damage is not coming from my hireling because I very quickly learned to park the hireling far away from the fight. If there is a way of stopping the off hand damage, I would love to know. I don't mind having to be careful; I do mind quest failure for reasons that seem beyond my control.

Paralyzing weapons are extremely helpful in LSDL. Your stray hits will paralyze the spiders, alerting you that you are damaging them and giving you a chance to move away. Vorpals, cleave, etc. should obviously be avoided. :p

To the OP's post, I don't think I've ever failed this quest, even when running it without arcane casters.. Take it slowly and use tactics. It can be done, it just requires a bit of patience and communication.

diamabel
06-14-2011, 12:07 PM
...

If anything should be changed then it's the hp/saves NPCs get in various difficulty settings. As it's now the babysitting quests are easier if you do them on higher difficulties and harder if you do them on lower difficulty settings.

It is annoying to fail these kind of quest objectives. Why blame the game mechanics if it's the party's fault. Some communication and explanation before the quest starts should help.

p.s.
My quick fix would be to grant 2 additional bonus chests for not killing spiders. At least you can count on peoples's greed to learn new ropes. ,)

varusso
06-14-2011, 01:57 PM
Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk. Changing the mechanic really does not affect you. It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

ceiswyn
06-14-2011, 02:21 PM
Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk.

By that definition the 'thrill of danger' in a rollercoaster ride isn't real either, because there's a low - to no - risk of actually falling or crashing, and yet for some reason it still manages to induce fun and excitement in a way that getting on the 4.15 to Paddington doesn't. Your understanding of psychology appears to be somewhat lacking.

In any case, you've made one heck of a lot of assumptions there, and most of them are wrong. There's always a risk. It's why I like this kind of quest; you can never switch off and just run in waving your swords, you have to be careful every single time. It doesn't matter how good you get, or how many times you've done it, or how well you know it, or how well you're geared; if you get cocky and try to zerg it you are going to fail. Maybe you've walked that tightrope above a chasm fifty times without falling; but that doesn't mean the chasm isn't there.


Changing the mechanic really does not affect you.

Apart from, y'know, making the quest less fun for me. That is a fact, and you cannot argue around it. If you change the fail mechanic to a don't-get-a-chest mechanic, you make the quest not-fun for many of those who currently enjoy it, whether you personally think that is logical or not.


It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

Whereas I find 'I don't care that it's one of only three quests that caters to a certain type of gamer, or that it's easy enough to run with a bit of thought even with a gimped character; I find it hard and don't like it, so you should change it' equally poor. We appear to be at an impasse.

How about if it weren't a required flagging quest, and you could avoid doing it? Would you be happy enough not messing about with the core bit that makes it fun then?

Chai
06-14-2011, 02:31 PM
Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk. Changing the mechanic really does not affect you. It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

And many of us who did have to do it for a long time now see this type of request as "I cant be bothered with the learning curve to play this game. Just give it to me."

Im not an elitist. I dont consider myself a "better player" than the next person, so the way I see it, if I can make it through this, so can you. Many of us feel that the game has been made much easier than it used to be. Sure I could give you ye ald old fart lecture about how we had it much harder at cap 16 with no PRE in most classes, no FvS, etc blah blah blah but theres no need. This quest was the easiest of the five vale quests even at that time. Ritual sacrifice is prob the same difficulty, but the other three, Coal Chamber, Rainbow, and Devils, are harder.

This type of request can also be seen as a precursor to other nerf requests. You are flagging for Shroud by running vale quests. Will there be requests to nerf Shroud because the puzzles are too hard, and Sagratta teleports all over the place? Rising to meet the challenge rather than asking for quests to be nerfed will be seen as the better attitude by players whose groups you are applying to when running this content.

varusso
06-14-2011, 02:40 PM
snip

You have utterly missed the point. Players who want to complete it the 'right' way would still be able to do it. Players who ALREADY know how to beat the quest and do so on a regular basis are NOT in any real danger of failing, unless they PUG or have a serious brain-fart (or are running it drastically underlevel with a bad build/gear just to see if they can do it). Even then, its not likely they will trigger the auto-fail, but rather get killed doing something above them. All of the testimonials about how 'easy' it is to complete this quest, and how so-and-so has run umpteen runs without a fail only serve to prove that. The risk of failure is an illusion to a single player or group that knows how to do the quest AND does it that way.

The ACTUAL risk of failure comes when you have a random pug, players who DONT know the quest, the rare griefer, or players who cant/dont listen/understand. These include kids, people of different nationalities, the occasional idiot, and the griefers. And you never know for sure if one of these types is lurking until you actually see the 5th spider die -- which can be right up to the very end of the quest. Most people will shrug off one spider dying early on, and simply remind the party not to kill any more. After all its easy to accidentally kill one, and you get up to 4, right? Until they get to the end and suddenly fail when the others are killed.

All this really does is (as I have said) discourage people from pugging on this quest. If you can solo it or run it with a trusted group, why would you bother risking such a colossal waste of time?

If it werent a flagging quest, and didnt drop INGs for GS, I daresay this quest would be largely avoided. Run once and done, if that, just for the favor. When a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase (for any reason) then it should be revisited. This is not the case, however, because it IS a flagging/GS INGs quest.

And BTW, I used the word MOST not ALL when describing the folks who want to keep the mechanic. That implies exceptions to the rule.

Schmoe
06-14-2011, 02:51 PM
Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk. Changing the mechanic really does not affect you. It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

I'm sorry, do you think you could toss in a few more baseless and inaccurate assumptions? I'm one of the people who hasn't ever failed the quest, and yet:

1. I've pugged it 75% of the time
2. Most of my completions were for XP, flagging, or favor while I was still 15th-18th level

It's really too bad that you have found the quest too difficult so far. But that doesn't mean that the only people to find it easy somehow avoid the pug experience.

And yes, changing the mechanic DOES affect me. I enjoy a challenge that makes me think and play a little differently. If the mechanic changes, I no longer have that enjoyment. EAD.

varusso
06-14-2011, 02:54 PM
And many of us who did have to do it for a long time now see this type of request as "I cant be bothered with the learning curve to play this game. Just give it to me."

Im not an elitist. I dont consider myself a "better player" than the next person, so the way I see it, if I can make it through this, so can you. Many of us feel that the game has been made much easier than it used to be. Sure I could give you ye ald old fart lecture about how we had it much harder at cap 16 with no PRE in most classes, no FvS, etc blah blah blah but theres no need. This quest was the easiest of the five vale quests even at that time. Ritual sacrifice is prob the same difficulty, but the other three, Coal Chamber, Rainbow, and Devils, are harder.

This type of request can also be seen as a precursor to other nerf requests. You are flagging for Shroud by running vale quests. Will there be requests to nerf Shroud because the puzzles are too hard, and Sagratta teleports all over the place? Rising to meet the challenge rather than asking for quests to be nerfed will be seen as the better attitude by players whose groups you are applying to when running this content.

The 'snowball' theory as a reason for denial is weaksauce, sorry. Well if we do this, then they will want to do that, then this...blah blah. You address each one if/when it comes up. You dont use them as an excuse to preemptively deny something on the basis that it MIGHT (or even WILL) lead to something else. This is not that, these are not those; this is only this.

I am one of the folks who CAN and DO complete this quest successfully, because I know how to do it the 'right' way. I do it solo all the time. Again, the problem is in a pug -- for the reasons stated. Now, if you have even one person who knows the quest, they can pretty-much hand-hold a group of newbies through it (if they listen), and may lose or two spiders along the way, but still complete. If it is so 'easy' to complete it, that the mechanic is moot, then the mechanic only serves to frustrate when it goes south. There are other ways to incentivize players to NOT kill the spiders, without failing the entire thing immediately when someone doesnt listen or makes a mistake. Five people should not pay for one bonehead. Non-autofail quests, you can still complete even if your get one of these goofballs in your group and they cause a complete wipe.

Once again, the auto-fail nature of this quest specifically comes into play when pugging, and only serves to discourage it. Having run this quest countless times, and talked to countless players, by far the majority of people I have run into dislike the mechanic, and complain about how they HATE to pug it for the same reasons. Naturally, these folks are the same ones that tend NOT to fail it when I run with them. None of us mind being able to fail a quest. None of us mind a challenging mechanic. What we DO mind is having all of our time utterly wasted because of a mechanic that is so easy to trigger. Put a steep enough penalty on doing it the wrong way, and the majority of players WILL strive to do it the right way. But that penalty should not include a complete waste of invested time/resources, with no possible way to salvage it.

And no thats NOT a request to put auto-success vs bosses or just win as soon as you walk into a quest, blah blah, before someone decides to snowball nonsense THAT.

varusso
06-14-2011, 03:04 PM
I'm sorry, do you think you could toss in a few more baseless and inaccurate assumptions? I'm one of the people who hasn't ever failed the quest, and yet:

1. I've pugged it 75% of the time
2. Most of my completions were for XP, flagging, or favor while I was still 15th-18th level

It's really too bad that you have found the quest too difficult so far. But that doesn't mean that the only people to find it easy somehow avoid the pug experience.

And yes, changing the mechanic DOES affect me. I enjoy a challenge that makes me think and play a little differently. If the mechanic changes, I no longer have that enjoyment. EAD.

You should practice reading comprehension. I said MOST, not ALL. I have also said multiple times *I* do not find this quest HARD in any way. I can solo it whenever I choose for the flag/pie/ings. What I DONT LIKE is the ease of an auto-fail and wasted time in a random PUG. That is not remotely the same thing.

You would still have your challenge if you decided to go for the optionals. The rewards for doing so would be enough to encourage it for the majority of groups. If you just want to zerg for a piece of pie/flagging, go ahead. But if you want a CHALLENGE then dont kill the spiders, get a ton more XP, and get GS Ings. Your results would be the same. Meanwhile, everyone else who is sick of failing it for silly reasons would still get to flag/pie OR they could choose to recall out and start over if they wanted to do it right and get the optional rewards. Which is fundamentally no different than auto-failing it, other than the fact you get to CHOOSE whether or not you completely waste your invested time and resources.

A game mechanic that is FRUSTRATING is not the same as a CHALLENGE. For those who know how to complete this correctly and who can do so on a regular basis, this is not a challenge. Its like knowing how a mystery novel turns out. Once you know the ending, there is no real thrill of discovery. You may still enjoy reading the book and pretending you dont know, but you still know. Once you have every word memorized, you cant even pretend anymore. If you lost the book when you were on the last chapter, you would STILL be frustrated, even though you already read it several times, right?

ceiswyn
06-14-2011, 03:05 PM
Players who want to complete it the 'right' way would still be able to do it.

But we would not enjoy doing so anymore, so what exactly would be the point?

I have said, very clearly, that changing the quest in the way you suggest would make it far less fun for those who currently like it. Whether that makes sense to you is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that you want to take one of three quests in the game with this particular mechanic - which some people enjoy - and change it to lose that mechanic, because you don't like it or understand why other people do.


When a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase (for any reason) then it should be revisited.

It should; but that shouldn't always mean changed. Maybe a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase because it's just hell on a stick and nobody really likes it; but maybe it's avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase but much enjoyed by a minority. And if that's the case then no, it doesn't need changing to suit the lowest common denominator; but there is a definite argument for moving it out of the main highway of gameplay.

What is it with people constantly trying to remove variety from the game?

ceiswyn
06-14-2011, 03:10 PM
A game mechanic that is FRUSTRATING is not the same as a CHALLENGE.

But, and I cannot emphasise this enough, you are not everybody.

You find it frustrating; others do not.
You do not regard it as a challenge; others do.
You think optionals are identical to a fail condition; others do not.

Stop regarding your own subjective perception and perspective as objective fact, and take on board what other people are telling you without dismissing their experiences as inferior to your own.

Chai
06-14-2011, 03:16 PM
The 'snowball' theory as a reason for denial is weaksauce, sorry. Well if we do this, then they will want to do that, then this...blah blah. You address each one if/when it comes up. You dont use them as an excuse to preemptively deny something on the basis that it MIGHT (or even WILL) lead to something else. This is not that, these are not those; this is only this.

Sorry, I disagree. Theres enough evidence here to show that what you cal "snowball theory" has played its hand quite often in DDO. 5 years of it in fact.

Over 5 years of play we have seen your "snowball theory" play out more than once. It all started when players 4.5 years ago complained the game was too hard. If I could, I would fire up the flux capacitor, dump some banana peels and some beer into the Mr. Garbage fuel converter, and nail down 1.21 jiggawatts and have people play DDO at the end of 2007 when the Vale came out, and illustrate how much harder it was than it is now, and how the snowball effect has played out due o the constant complaining of players that the game was too hard. Where we're going, we dont need roads.


I am one of the folks who CAN and DO complete this quest successfully, because I know how to do it the 'right' way. I do it solo all the time.

Then why ask for a change?


Again, the problem is in a pug -- for the reasons stated. Now, if you have even one person who knows the quest, they can pretty-much hand-hold a group of newbies through it (if they listen), and may lose or two spiders along the way, but still complete. If it is so 'easy' to complete it, that the mechanic is moot, then the mechanic only serves to frustrate when it goes south. There are other ways to incentivize players to NOT kill the spiders, without failing the entire thing immediately when someone doesnt listen or makes a mistake. Five people should not pay for one bonehead. Non-autofail quests, you can still complete even if your get one of these goofballs in your group and they cause a complete wipe.

I see whats happening here. Its not that we cant be bothered with the learning curve of the game, its that we cant be bothered to communicate and cooperate with PUGs to acheive the same goal. Who would have thougt that we should have to be FORCED to COOPERATE with the other group emmbers in order to succeed in a Dungeons and Dragons based game? :p

D&D is a forced cooperation game.

Side note: Ever notice that its always the PUGs fault in these nerf request threads? If it werent for you 5 noobs, I would have completed this by now. LOL. :p


Once again, the auto-fail nature of this quest specifically comes into play when pugging, and only serves to discourage it. Having run this quest countless times, and talked to countless players, by far the majority of people I have run into dislike the mechanic, and complain about how they HATE to pug it for the same reasons. Naturally, these folks are the same ones that tend NOT to fail it when I run with them. None of us mind being able to fail a quest. None of us mind a challenging mechanic. What we DO mind is having all of our time utterly wasted because of a mechanic that is so easy to trigger. Put a steep enough penalty on doing it the wrong way, and the majority of players WILL strive to do it the right way. But that penalty should not include a complete waste of invested time/resources, with no possible way to salvage it.

And no thats NOT a request to put auto-success vs bosses or just win as soon as you walk into a quest, blah blah, before someone decides to snowball nonsense THAT.

There are many things I can think of to resolve your issue with bad PUGs who cant complete a quest due to lack of communication, lack of paying attention, or simply wanting to grief the rest of the group. Nerfing the quests down to the point where its practically a "gimme" is not on that list.

varusso
06-14-2011, 03:16 PM
But we would not enjoy doing so anymore, so what exactly would be the point?

I have said, very clearly, that changing the quest in the way you suggest would make it far less fun for those who currently like it. Whether that makes sense to you is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that you want to take one of three quests in the game with this particular mechanic - which some people enjoy - and change it to lose that mechanic, because you don't like it or understand why other people do.

When a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase (for any reason) then it should be revisited.

It should; but that shouldn't always mean changed. Maybe a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase because it's just hell on a stick and nobody really likes it; but maybe it's avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase but much enjoyed by a minority. And if that's the case then no, it doesn't need changing to suit the lowest common denominator; but there is a definite argument for moving it out of the main highway of gameplay.

What is it with people constantly trying to remove variety from the game?

Actually, revisiting a quest that is seldom run WOULD almost by definition mean changes. What is the point of reviewing such a quest, if not to make changes that WOULD make players want to run it?

I dont see how giving you the option to run the quest EXACTLY the same way you do now removes the fun of it. Changing it so that it is an optional actually ADDS more variety, BTW, not take it away. Optionals are intended to function as something on the side; they add more challenge/reward to players who want it, while removing it for those who want a more streamlined version. It allows BOTH types of players (and everyone in between) to customize the quest to a large degree, tailoring it to what they specifically want out of it. If you WANT to get all of the rewards out of the quest, then you do all of the optionals. It would function no differently, in the end, that the current version, other than to give you the choice of how you proceed if you fail to save the spiders.

Again, the majority of players I have encountered (pugs and otherwise) HATE this mechanic -- not because we abhor additional challenges, but because we DETEST how easy it is to completely waste our time in that quest. What we want is a CHOICE on whether or not to continue with the quest when the spider portion fails. The chance of failure does not serve as an additional challenge, but as a source of frustration. Putting it into an optional removes a large degree of frustration, while still allowing players who like the mechanic to run it the way they already do. If you LIKE the auto-fail mechanic, and you end up killing 5 spiders, then recall and reset. The result is the same for you.

Thrudh
06-14-2011, 03:19 PM
What I DONT LIKE is the ease of an auto-fail and wasted time in a random PUG.

Well, I disagree with your premise.. I have PUGged this numerous times, and I don't see auto-fail being that hard to avoid.

I LIKE that it has a different vibe to it, that it's not a zerg kill everything type of quest.

I see no issue, and I don't want the devs to change it.

We'll have to agree to disagree (Feel free to state that I've utterly missed the point, my argument is weaksauce, and that I need to practice my reading comprehension, plus any other lame insults you can think of)



A game mechanic that is FRUSTRATING is not the same as a CHALLENGE. For those who know how to complete this correctly and who can do so on a regular basis, this is not a challenge. Its like knowing how a mystery novel turns out. Once you know the ending, there is no real thrill of discovery. You may still enjoy reading the book and pretending you dont know, but you still know. Once you have every word memorized, you cant even pretend anymore. If you lost the book when you were on the last chapter, you would STILL be frustrated, even though you already read it several times, right?

Whoops... one more comment.

This is nothing like a reading a mystery novel. There's NO secret... Even first-timers understand right away (if they're not ********) to not kill spiders... The trick is the implementation, and that requires a different set of skills than normal quests.

The Pit is frustrating to some people. Others like it because it requires different skills than most quests. Same with this one. It requires different skills. You have to play differently in here than other quests.

And that's good.

Thrudh
06-14-2011, 03:21 PM
Stop regarding your own subjective perception and perspective as objective fact, and take on board what other people are telling you without dismissing their experiences as inferior to your own.

Excellent post... +1

voxson5
06-14-2011, 03:26 PM
For me its the challenge that made it interesting. Well, that and the fact that gs blank ingredients/pie drops from the quest, which makes the run worthwhile.

Yes is is frustrating when you;re starting out & learning the quest (and indeed learning your character), and when running with others who are doing the same. But we *all* had to learn it sometime, and it takes a while for some of us :P

Thrudh
06-14-2011, 03:28 PM
how easy it is to completely waste our time in that quest.

It's not easy to fail that quest. The venerated quest (Faithful Departed?) was easy to fail, and they changed it. This quest gives you 5 chances to not fail.

The vast majority of PUGs can handle it.

The people who hate that quest mostly hate it because they have to be careful, because they have to move slow, and it can be a long quest. They don't hate it because they fail all the time... I've heard many people complain about that quest when inside, but we never failed it.

The problem with your suggestion about making GS ingrediants an optional is that you will stop people from PUGing that quest even more. A PUG is more likely to not care about screwing up an OPTIONAL than he will care about a FAIL.

ceiswyn
06-14-2011, 03:28 PM
Actually, revisiting a quest that is seldom run WOULD almost by definition mean changes. What is the point of reviewing such a quest, if not to make changes that WOULD make players want to run it?

Because if there is a sizeable minority of players who like the quest just as it is, it means it's not a bad quest, it just appeals to a niche audience.

Appealing to a niche audience is not a bad thing. The problem comes if there are a significant number of quests that only appeal to a niche audience; which is not currently the case.


I dont see how giving you the option to run the quest EXACTLY the same way you do now removes the fun of it.

You have made your lack of understanding quite clear. Various people have attempted to explain; you have rubbished our explanations. Now will you please just accept that this is the case because we who feel that way tell you so?


It would function no differently, in the end, that the current version

FOR YOU. Again, it would be a entirely different - and lesser - experience for some of us.


Again, the majority of players I have encountered (pugs and otherwise) HATE this mechanic

I have never argued otherwise. It's why I would support taking the quest out of the mainstream of the game.


The chance of failure does not serve as an additional challenge, but as a source of frustration.

FOR YOU.


If you LIKE the auto-fail mechanic, and you end up killing 5 spiders, then recall and reset. The result is the same for you.

Y'know how earlier you were talking about the illusion of risk? This is the illusion of risk. And it is, as you would guess, not nearly as much fun as the real thing.

Aashrym
06-14-2011, 03:29 PM
You should practice reading comprehension. I said MOST, not ALL. I have also said multiple times *I* do not find this quest HARD in any way. I can solo it whenever I choose for the flag/pie/ings. What I DONT LIKE is the ease of an auto-fail and wasted time in a random PUG. That is not remotely the same thing.

You would still have your challenge if you decided to go for the optionals. The rewards for doing so would be enough to encourage it for the majority of groups. If you just want to zerg for a piece of pie/flagging, go ahead. But if you want a CHALLENGE then dont kill the spiders, get a ton more XP, and get GS Ings. Your results would be the same. Meanwhile, everyone else who is sick of failing it for silly reasons would still get to flag/pie OR they could choose to recall out and start over if they wanted to do it right and get the optional rewards. Which is fundamentally no different than auto-failing it, other than the fact you get to CHOOSE whether or not you completely waste your invested time and resources.

A game mechanic that is FRUSTRATING is not the same as a CHALLENGE. For those who know how to complete this correctly and who can do so on a regular basis, this is not a challenge. Its like knowing how a mystery novel turns out. Once you know the ending, there is no real thrill of discovery. You may still enjoy reading the book and pretending you dont know, but you still know. Once you have every word memorized, you cant even pretend anymore. If you lost the book when you were on the last chapter, you would STILL be frustrated, even though you already read it several times, right?

I wouldn't even say most. I've never failed the that quest either whether pugging, solo, or guild group. I can see a concern on a griefer but I've never actually met one.

What you find frustrating on that mechanic just might not be as frustrating for other players. I do like it, as mentioned earlier.

If anything I would agree that the spiders should have better stats on normal and become weaker as the difficulty goes up.

varusso
06-14-2011, 03:35 PM
But, and I cannot emphasise this enough, you are not everybody.

You find it frustrating; others do not.
You do not regard it as a challenge; others do.
You think optionals are identical to a fail condition; others do not.

Stop regarding your own subjective perception and perspective as objective fact, and take on board what other people are telling you without dismissing their experiences as inferior to your own.

I never once said I was everyone, nor even that was representative of a majority (or minority for that matter). You make the mistake that just because a handful of people in a forum thread say they like something (or dislike something) that it is in ANY way representative of the actual playerbase in-game.

It is a FACT that only a fraction of the playerbase even comes to the forums, and a FACT that an even smaller portion ever actually post. This is a very miniscule and inaccurate sample-size of the overall populace. It is also undeniable that a significant portion of people who would WANT to support a game change such as this are reluctant to post, because they immediately get swarmed by the overly-vocal posters who like to scream EASY BUTTON and NOOB and all the other derogatory comments that amount to 'if you arent as good at this game as me, then the problem is you SUCK,not the game'. We all KNOW this to be true, just by looking at any and every post where someone proposes even the simplest change. My god, I remember a relatively recent thread about improving the map functionality and THAT was swarmed by those types of people.

Dont presume that just because a vocal minority manages to shout down the folks willing to express their opinions, that those opinions arent valid, or shared by a significantly larger portion of the playerbase than you think. Whether or not the opinions are ones YOU personally share.

At the end of the day, I always support more player choices, even if I dont share the same position as the person advocating it. My OP proposal allows for more player choice. You can customize your own 'challenge'. As currently implemented, only ONE type of player gets to experience what they want in this quest, and there are MANY more types of players out there than just that one type. All I want is to allow more players to enjoy this quest, by changing a mechanic that many DO NOT like.

Schmoe
06-14-2011, 03:42 PM
You should practice reading comprehension. I said MOST, not ALL. I have also said multiple times *I* do not find this quest HARD in any way. I can solo it whenever I choose for the flag/pie/ings. What I DONT LIKE is the ease of an auto-fail and wasted time in a random PUG. That is not remotely the same thing.

You would still have your challenge if you decided to go for the optionals.

Not true. As you've pointed out yourself, there is a difference between a punitive penalty for a mistake, and a reward for going "above and beyond." I happen to like unforgiving challenges. You apparently do not. I would prefer to see some parts of the game cater to my enjoyment. You apparently would not. Seems pretty simple to me.

Reading comprehension, ftw.

ceiswyn
06-14-2011, 03:43 PM
Dont presume that just because a vocal minority manages to shout down the folks willing to express their opinions, that those opinions arent valid, or shared by a significantly larger portion of the playerbase than you think. Whether or not the opinions are ones YOU personally share.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm glad that this is something you are willing to take on board and consider.


As currently implemented, only ONE type of player gets to experience what they want in this quest, and there are MANY more types of players out there than just that one type.

There are indeed; and it is impossible and impractical for any one quest to cater to all of them. This is why I am glad that DDO provides a large variety of quests with different mechanics; don't-kill-the-friendlies quests, puzzle quests, jumping quests, and of course the ones with the majority appeal; run-in-and-kill-them-all quests.

Let's keep it that way.

(And I think we're now going in circles, so I'm calling time on this one; I'm done. And I think everyone's had a chance to make their opinion known, so how about we let the thread die a dignified death?)

Thrudh
06-14-2011, 03:45 PM
All I want is to allow more players to enjoy this quest, by changing a mechanic that many DO NOT like.

How is this different from making the Pit completable by skipping the furnance rooms (making them "optional" instead)? Some people hate puzzles too. Maybe the puzzles in the Pit (heck, ALL quests!) should be "optional" too?

Kushiel
06-14-2011, 03:49 PM
1) The quest is (has been, until more recent content additions) sitting in an area of the quests for XP where there is limited choice for where to harvest XP. It has been a rather barren landscape for quests - that general area - but that is changing. Slowly.

2) It is part of a chains RAID flagging mechanism. Required for access to more (for what at the time of creation) was limited content. Cap content. End-game content.

In comparisson, the following "Protect-The-NPC" quests (some that have an autofail) fall in Content Rich landscape - far more choices exist for skipping that/those quests and not feeling the lack of XP roll in to advance with:

Level 1 Base Quests:
Redemption - Autofail on NPC death
The Cannith Crystal - Autofail on crystal death
Stealthy Reposession - Autofail on death of too many Prophets

Level 2 Base Quests:
Protect Baudry's Interests - Autofail on box death
Arachnophobia -Autofail on too many sarcophogi breaks (solo only)

Level 3 Base Quests:
Where There's Smoke - Autofail on not putting out the fire [Kinda unsure about this one, I think it may have happened onceand I've been really quick to always get to the valve since]
WW Chapter x - autofail on NPC death
Home Sweet Sewer - autofail on death of 1 of 5 npc; level 3 base (solo only)
The Captives - autofail on death of main npc? [Unsure, I never release the cages until end]

Level 4 through 5 Base Quests:
Stand Your Ground - little fail on NPC brothers death, autofail on main NPC death
The Bookbinder Rescue - Autofail on death of 1 of 5 (?) npc
Guard Duty - autofail on death of too many sailors
A Small Problem - autofail on death of Brawnpits

Level 6 through 10 Base Quests:
Gladewatch Outpost Defense - autofail on death of NPC
The Rescue - autofail on death of NPC (Threnal walk dwarf to top)
Faithful Departed - autofail on death of too many Venerable
Escort The Expedition - autofail on NPC death (Threnal get 3 npc to library door)
The Last Stand - autofail on not having 1 villager live, autofail on main NPC death
Slavers of the Shrieking Mines - autofail on too many monkey deaths
Hold for Reinforcments - autofail on NPC (Coyle) death

Level 11 through 14 Base Quests:
From Beyond the Grave - autofail on death of gate
Desert Caravan - autofail on all wagon deaths (?)
The Cursed Crypt - autofail on too many Silver Flame deaths
Assault on Summerfield - little fail (or auto?) on death of captain [Unsure, only done a few times]
*Madstone Crater - Protecting Giant NPC's resets a timer when their health falls too low (?)

Level 16 through 18 Base Quests:
Let Sleeping Dust Lie - autfail on 5 spider deaths
Prey on the Hunter - autofail on death of dragon
The Shipwrecked Spy - autofail on death of captain(?)

There maybe more after this, but for this life this is where my compendium stops and I am not greatly familiar with whatever may be higher. I may even be wrong on a few of these as they are not ones I run often.

Just entered this - it may be ugly in formatting. After seeing I may spend some time later to try to clean it up; but for now I want to kill foes and take their stuff.

One thing that maybe sort of becomes a little more clear - there are several quests where Autofails are possible. There is a wider assortment where this general mechanic is in use than maybe stays in the mind... because much of the lower content is bypassed by the xp/min folks? Because the lower quests are generally more plentiful? Because the lower quests are generally less resource/time investments?

Uska
06-14-2011, 03:51 PM
just did the quest the other day this fire savant was off on his own and suddenly spiders started dying and the rest of us are what the hell the guy off on his own is I am not doing it I dont know how they are dying finally we find him and the moron has fireshield on well he lets die it off and we manage to finish with 2 spiders left

I would think someone would know how fireshield works by level 13 or so


I cant agree to changing this though people need to learn to manage things and not killing things is kind of a cool thing

varusso
06-14-2011, 04:08 PM
How is this different from making the Pit completable by skipping the furnance rooms (making them "optional" instead)? Some people hate puzzles too. Maybe the puzzles in the Pit (heck, ALL quests!) should be "optional" too?

I am not preaching about the ugliness that is the pit. My first few experiences in there were with zerging groups that knew it and would not help anyone who did not. It was a HORRIBLE experience, and I washed my hands of it. I dont even know if there IS an auto-fail mechanic in pit, because I simply do not run that quest even for favor now; my game experience in there was THAT bad. Someday, I will get around to learning it and running it for XP. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other quests at that level for me to do. However, I am talking about a different quest. If someone else wants to champion pit, they are welcome to do so in another thread. :D I am talking SPECIFICALLY about an auto-fail mechanic in Dust.

And yes, ALOT of players hate puzzles. That is another ball of wax entirely, since the majority of players use solvers anyway, thereby trivializing the effectiveness of most puzzles after the first few runs. Devs have specifically stated they are looking at puzzles, BTW, and are looking at moving most puzzles into an optional, so that people who HATE puzzles arent forced into them just to complete the quest, but instead putting them into optionals, with enough incentive to still make them worthwhile, but not mandatory. The posts also included hints that they were considering retrofitting some puzzle quests. And the dev also acknowledged the fact that many players use solvers, thereby rendering the puzzles inert as a challenge, and only really effectively being a source of annoyance for those who DONT like them, and flavor for those who do.

That is, of course a topic for another thread as well.

Chai
06-14-2011, 04:10 PM
I never once said I was everyone, nor even that was representative of a majority (or minority for that matter). You make the mistake that just because a handful of people in a forum thread say they like something (or dislike something) that it is in ANY way representative of the actual playerbase in-game.

Actually you did say **most people** dont like the mechanic. Vocal minority? Who else complains that Sleeping Dust is too hard in a PUG?


Dont presume that just because a vocal minority manages to shout down the folks willing to express their opinions, that those opinions arent valid, or shared by a significantly larger portion of the playerbase than you think. Whether or not the opinions are ones YOU personally share.

I see where this is going. You make references to people who dont agree with your suggestion as being the vocal minority who is just there to shout people down, but every attempted rebuke you try to make when you disagree, you call the other opinion weak sauce, or tell them they didnt read the thread, or dont get the point. At this point I feel you need to take your own advice reciprocate any respect you expect others to give you.

The presumption happening here is yours, as you slap specific labels on those who are disagreeing here. This is why we cant have nice things on the forums. Theres too many arguements that boil down to "you disagree with me, therefore you obviously dont know anything about (fill in the name of topic here), havent read the thread, etc" - this assertation simply isnt true.

Disagreement =/= lack of knowledge or uninformed.

Anyway Ive said what I needed to say here. This quest doesnt need to get any easier. Its been out ~3 years now, and I do not see any large number of players complaining about the quest mechanic, or failing the quest in PUGs.

easyaction
06-14-2011, 04:17 PM
I really don't feel like quoting anything or even reading much of what was posted past page 2 of this thread (so if someone suggested this already, more power to you) so here goes: In reference to the change of incentive in XP for completing the quest without killing spiders...that is a stupid idea (no time to mince words). most people running it aren't running it for XP, they're running it for their pie and their funk. Give them the XP, or half the XP, let them kill spiders, whatever. Just dont let them get a shard or ingredients without trying for it. The juice has to be worth the pull, and XP?!?! an XP penalty/bonus (half empty/full) for a REAL completion is meaningless if a majority people running it don't need XP, they just want their GS ingredients. An XP change would just allow for easy funk farming.

varusso
06-14-2011, 04:45 PM
snip

Back up. There is a little tale about a pot and kettle you should listen to sometime. Disagreeing with someone and refuting their points is NOT the same as ignoring them. I could just as easily make the same accusations about you (and some others in this thread).

Now lets do a little hypothetical here: The folks who say they like the 5-spider auto-fail mechanic, because of the extra "challenge' it presents -- how many of you do the optional dont kill ANY spiders for the extra chest? My guess would be very very few -- not because it is an optional (although that obviously factors into it) but because it is a huge PITA, and largely not worth the effort. If you actually wanted a CHALLENGE that is based on not killing spiders, you would always do this optional. After all, its basically the same thing, only more of it. When you kill the ogre sin a group of spiders, the linked spiders all de-aggro, just like in the auto-fail portion. So the mechanic is exactly the same, yet you CHOOSE not to do it, because it is a huge PITA. Now imagine if that were part of the MANDATORY quest goal -- dont kill any spiders, period. Obviously, Turbine was smart about this and realized the majority of players would HATE this quest, so the compromised by setting that as an optional and the 5-spider as a mandatory.

I can only think of one person I have ever met who actually did the optional, and he was soloing it, with me piking in front for the flag. He was significantly underwhelmed by the reward for it. I dont even remember now if you can get an extra ing out of that chest. And that only demonstrates that players DONT like the mechanic itself, hence why pretty much everyone does it the way we do now -- zerg part one and tip-toe through part 2. If folks actually LIKED the mechanic, and the reward were actually worth it, they would always do this optional. Why dont they (aside from not liking it)? Cos the reward sucks. It just isnt enough of an incentive. So remove THAT optional, replace it with 'dont kill any spiders period -- or dont kill 5', toss a significant chunk of the quest XP in it (while reducing the main XP) and put a worthwhile chest there -- namely the ings chest. And remove the auto-fail. Now THAT would be a challenge for those that see this as a challenge, and it would be an incentive to experience the unique quest mechanic, while earning extra goodies.

For those that are just trying to get the flag and pie...so what? They arent interested in doing the PITA spider thing for time number 273. They have already 'beaten' this quest. Repeatedly. Its not a challenge or a thrill, its just an ends to a means. So they can zerg their thing, and those who 'like' doing it the 'hard' way can still do so. Again, optionals are SUPPOSED to be an extra challenge for reward quest customization.

Permadeath guilds deal with self-imposed restrictions and limitations and 'fails' on a daily basis. Honestly, do you think that a game mechanic that mandates you fail vs a player-choice mechanic that says you failed is really different, when the fail 'trigger' is exactly the same? If you WANT to fail because you didnt save the spiders, you can. Some folks play with the idea that if they dont do ALL of the optionals and get ALL of the bonuses, they didnt complete the quest properly. Its more a matter of perspective than anything. If you view not killing the spiders as a challenge, then you can STILL have that challenge by not killing them. If you DO kill them, then you can choose to restart or not. Removing the mandatory fail does not change that unless YOU decide to go on. In which case, its obvious that -- regardless of what you THOUGH was the case -- completing the quest was more important to you than the challenge of doing so. Either way you have a CHOICE.

Kushiel
06-14-2011, 04:53 PM
In case it was just too ugly a block of text to decipher, or if it fell into the most rapid series of replies and was just plain lost, post #125 above (unless the forums goes and renumbers things oddly on a whim) will show a list of quests.

These are, more-or-less, "Protect-The-NPC" type quests that copy (or share some attributes) with Dust. I think. There are probably valid arguments some of you would have for why one or some or all differ... but, well, Frell... it's another piece of this to look at in the overall discussion.

It's still not very pretty, but that's as good as I'm going to take time to make it. ;-}

--
And for amusements sake, anyone so inclined, pick from those and tell us all which ones you routinely run for *fun* hehe hehe hehe
--

agent00skid
06-14-2011, 05:18 PM
Personally I dislike CC a lot more than Dust, and Rainbow is also further down there. Heck, even all the light damage in Running I find more annoying.

I PuG it some times, the needed times for flag and ingreds. Failed once on a whipe, but not from killing spiders. Having people taking a bit of care makes that quest interesting, and 5 spider fail is quite generous, especially as it doesn't start before taking the first journal.

And your point that there is a minority in here arguing for the mechanics survival is true, but I only also see a minority arguing for it's removal. Unless you show that many people feel like you, it is a bit weak to attack the lack of supporters.

varusso
06-14-2011, 05:28 PM
Personally I dislike CC a lot more than Dust, and Rainbow is also further down there. Heck, even all the light damage in Running I find more annoying.

I PuG it some times, the needed times for flag and ingreds. Failed once on a whipe, but not from killing spiders. Having people taking a bit of care makes that quest interesting, and 5 spider fail is quite generous, especially as it doesn't start before taking the first journal.

And your point that there is a minority in here arguing for the mechanics survival is true, but I only also see a minority arguing for it's removal. Unless you show that many people feel like you, it is a bit weak to attack the lack of supporters.

I have actually pointed out the lack of supporters on BOTH sides, for and against changing the mechanic. Specifically because EVERYONE (including myself) is in the minority, and none of us can accurately represent the actual playerbase. The folks who participate in forum discussions (regardless of their relative stance) tend to be in the vocal minority who feel strongly enough about an issue or point to actually take time to discuss/debate/argue about it. The rest of the playerbase generally falls under the umbrella of "I dont care enough to argue about it, just want to play. If I dont like something bad enough, I will just quit." By that fact alone, we do not share the same opinions and goals as the rest of the playerbase and therefor cannot be seen as accurate representations. :D All we can do is offer anecdotal evidence, based on our experiences and interactions with other players in-game.

wootvenu
06-14-2011, 05:30 PM
we were 4/5 spiders count b4 boss room. we completed succesfully how? We had a intimi tank who intimidated the spiders all the way to the door and rest killled the boss asap.

p.s. nvr thought this before why the name let the sleeping dust lie..

Uska
06-14-2011, 08:40 PM
Back up. There is a little tale about a pot and kettle you should listen to sometime. Disagreeing with someone and refuting their points is NOT the same as ignoring them. I could just as easily make the same accusations about you (and some others in this thread).

Now lets do a little hypothetical here: The folks who say they like the 5-spider auto-fail mechanic, because of the extra "challenge' it presents -- how many of you do the optional dont kill ANY spiders for the extra chest? My guess would be very very few -- not because it is an optional (although that obviously factors into it) but because it is a huge PITA, and largely not worth the effort. If you actually wanted a CHALLENGE that is based on not killing spiders, you would always do this optional. After all, its basically the same thing, only more of it. When you kill the ogre sin a group of spiders, the linked spiders all de-aggro, just like in the auto-fail portion. So the mechanic is exactly the same, yet you CHOOSE not to do it, because it is a huge PITA. Now imagine if that were part of the MANDATORY quest goal -- dont kill any spiders, period. Obviously, Turbine was smart about this and realized the majority of players would HATE this quest, so the compromised by setting that as an optional and the 5-spider as a mandatory.

I can only think of one person I have ever met who actually did the optional, and he was soloing it, with me piking in front for the flag. He was significantly underwhelmed by the reward for it. I dont even remember now if you can get an extra ing out of that chest. And that only demonstrates that players DONT like the mechanic itself, hence why pretty much everyone does it the way we do now -- zerg part one and tip-toe through part 2. If folks actually LIKED the mechanic, and the reward were actually worth it, they would always do this optional. Why dont they (aside from not liking it)? Cos the reward sucks. It just isnt enough of an incentive. So remove THAT optional, replace it with 'dont kill any spiders period -- or dont kill 5', toss a significant chunk of the quest XP in it (while reducing the main XP) and put a worthwhile chest there -- namely the ings chest. And remove the auto-fail. Now THAT would be a challenge for those that see this as a challenge, and it would be an incentive to experience the unique quest mechanic, while earning extra goodies.

For those that are just trying to get the flag and pie...so what? They arent interested in doing the PITA spider thing for time number 273. They have already 'beaten' this quest. Repeatedly. Its not a challenge or a thrill, its just an ends to a means. So they can zerg their thing, and those who 'like' doing it the 'hard' way can still do so. Again, optionals are SUPPOSED to be an extra challenge for reward quest customization.

Permadeath guilds deal with self-imposed restrictions and limitations and 'fails' on a daily basis. Honestly, do you think that a game mechanic that mandates you fail vs a player-choice mechanic that says you failed is really different, when the fail 'trigger' is exactly the same? If you WANT to fail because you didnt save the spiders, you can. Some folks play with the idea that if they dont do ALL of the optionals and get ALL of the bonuses, they didnt complete the quest properly. Its more a matter of perspective than anything. If you view not killing the spiders as a challenge, then you can STILL have that challenge by not killing them. If you DO kill them, then you can choose to restart or not. Removing the mandatory fail does not change that unless YOU decide to go on. In which case, its obvious that -- regardless of what you THOUGH was the case -- completing the quest was more important to you than the challenge of doing so. Either way you have a CHOICE.

I try for the optional chest every time and most of the people in the group want it as well as to changing the mechanic no more making the game easier its getting tiiresome I remember when some people had trouble getting out of the lower area just because they couldnt get past the solo tavern quest and then they couldnt get into market because they couldnt master water works I miss those days. and have done the extra chest in dust dozens of times

efreet5
06-14-2011, 09:02 PM
3. Don't use two-handed weapons


Incorrect! If you twitch fight with your 2 hander, then you don't have any problems with glancing blows. So, number 3 should read: "Learn to play the game!"

Tammuz
06-15-2011, 12:12 AM
Incorrect! If you twitch fight with your 2 hander, then you don't have any problems with glancing blows. So, number 3 should read: "Learn to play the game!"

But isnt twitch-fighting an unintended consequence of the system rather than intentional?

WangChi
06-15-2011, 12:31 AM
Just ran this quest for the first time ever in a PUG this afternoon, tried for the optional "kill no spiders" chest, and had absolutely no trouble with it at all. Even had a WF Barb swinging a big greataxe.

Our method was just to let the sorc finger the ogre's while I led the way and pulled the spiders away until the ogre's were dead. Honestly, it was an incredibly simple tactic that worked with ease, and I can only think of once where I saw a spider even take damage, and it was from an accidental glancing blow from the over-zealous WF barb.

I love this kind of mechanic in a game, adds a challenge and even if the rewards weren't great, at least I can say I pugged it AND got the optional chest.

DaSawks
06-16-2011, 04:10 PM
1) The quest is (has been, until more recent content additions) sitting in an area of the quests for XP where there is limited choice for where to harvest XP. It has been a rather barren landscape for quests - that general area - but that is changing. Slowly.

2) It is part of a chains RAID flagging mechanism. Required for access to more (for what at the time of creation) was limited content. Cap content. End-game content.

In comparisson, the following "Protect-The-NPC" quests (some that have an autofail) fall in Content Rich landscape - far more choices exist for skipping that/those quests and not feeling the lack of XP roll in to advance with:

Level 1 Base Quests:
Redemption - Autofail on NPC death
The Cannith Crystal - Autofail on crystal death
Stealthy Reposession - Autofail on death of too many Prophets

Level 2 Base Quests:
Protect Baudry's Interests - Autofail on box death
Arachnophobia -Autofail on too many sarcophogi breaks (solo only)

Level 3 Base Quests:
Where There's Smoke - Autofail on not putting out the fire [Kinda unsure about this one, I think it may have happened onceand I've been really quick to always get to the valve since]
WW Chapter x - autofail on NPC death
Home Sweet Sewer - autofail on death of 1 of 5 npc; level 3 base (solo only)
The Captives - autofail on death of main npc? [Unsure, I never release the cages until end]

Level 4 through 5 Base Quests:
Stand Your Ground - little fail on NPC brothers death, autofail on main NPC death
The Bookbinder Rescue - Autofail on death of 1 of 5 (?) npc
Guard Duty - autofail on death of too many sailors
A Small Problem - autofail on death of Brawnpits

Level 6 through 10 Base Quests:
Gladewatch Outpost Defense - autofail on death of NPC
The Rescue - autofail on death of NPC (Threnal walk dwarf to top)
Faithful Departed - autofail on death of too many Venerable
Escort The Expedition - autofail on NPC death (Threnal get 3 npc to library door)
The Last Stand - autofail on not having 1 villager live, autofail on main NPC death
Slavers of the Shrieking Mines - autofail on too many monkey deaths
Hold for Reinforcments - autofail on NPC (Coyle) death

Level 11 through 14 Base Quests:
From Beyond the Grave - autofail on death of gate
Desert Caravan - autofail on all wagon deaths (?)
The Cursed Crypt - autofail on too many Silver Flame deaths
Assault on Summerfield - little fail (or auto?) on death of captain [Unsure, only done a few times]
*Madstone Crater - Protecting Giant NPC's resets a timer when their health falls too low (?)

Level 16 through 18 Base Quests:
Let Sleeping Dust Lie - autfail on 5 spider deaths
Prey on the Hunter - autofail on death of dragon
The Shipwrecked Spy - autofail on death of captain(?)

There maybe more after this, but for this life this is where my compendium stops and I am not greatly familiar with whatever may be higher. I may even be wrong on a few of these as they are not ones I run often.

Just entered this - it may be ugly in formatting. After seeing I may spend some time later to try to clean it up; but for now I want to kill foes and take their stuff.

One thing that maybe sort of becomes a little more clear - there are several quests where Autofails are possible. There is a wider assortment where this general mechanic is in use than maybe stays in the mind... because much of the lower content is bypassed by the xp/min folks? Because the lower quests are generally more plentiful? Because the lower quests are generally less resource/time investments?

Awesome list. I learned more from this than the rest of the 7 pages in this thread. TYVM.