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azmodeus1
06-10-2011, 01:44 PM
i read all these threads about perma-death play and it sounds like a refreshing style of gameplay. i just can't get myself to makebelieve about rules in game that don't exist.

well, why not make a 'hardcore rules' server, that would not only be a permadeath type playstyle, but would incorporate some of the more realistic rules regarding spell aoe's such as friendly fire. you dont' fight in a firewall because you would burn. don't run in front of an archer, or a mage casting disintegrate. have it apply to mobs as well. if you fireball a boss beside a chest, you destroy the loot [exception could be raid chests, assuming they are magically warded somehow].

im not sure if it would be even possible, theres some things like spiritcakes and such that could really mess it up. some timer would be needed if everyone dies in case someone is actually in range of a shrine. it could be an interesting change of pace. i know i would play on such a server alot, especially if i couldn't find a group for what i was looking for on a main character.

im guessig this will never happen because it would not be profitable. people wouldn't buy armor kits, bank space, extra char slots, etc.etc... on such a server, vip wouldn't be needed to open elite as much. but it could keep alot of people currently growing bored with the repetition a new challenge and change of pace.

Cam_Neely
06-10-2011, 01:45 PM
a 'hardcore rules' server

Brings new meaning to my naked disco ball parties...

Chai
06-10-2011, 01:49 PM
This works great in a game like NWN where the player/DMs have complete control of the server.

This would not work in DDO. Why?

Permadeath is a niche playstyle. ~>1% of the players play this way if that. Many PDers dont even agree on what is hardcore -vs- what is regular play. If you take a look at the different rules you will see that even within the niche players there is alot of variance in what we call challenging, and what we would call hardcore.

Turbine would be making a server to cater to a super small percentage of the playerbase. If they went with one PD guilds rules for the server, the rest of us would likely hang out right where we are in the general population, and continue to self police our own rules.

This would require a united PD front, as well as a majority of the regular players interest to even show up on the radar of a for profit business, who would have to convince to do this by speaking the language of dollarsese.

Khanyth
06-10-2011, 01:53 PM
There's a cost/benefit analysis to any business decision.

Opening a new server is a big decision.

Why spend $$$$ when the players do a fine job that doesn't cost Turbine a thing?

As Chai said, PDeath makes up less than 1% of the playerbase... why spend tons of $$$$ to appease >1%, when they could spend tons of $$$ on existing stuff..... like barbs.

sebastianosmith
06-10-2011, 01:55 PM
Chai is correct. There is no incentive for Turbine to do this for such a small user base. Stripping out the parts you described and imposing a new, more strict rule set would amount to creating a new game entirely. One with very limited appeal I might add.


i just can't get myself to makebelieve about rules in game that don't exist.

Surely, I cannot be the only one who find this statement somewhat ironic?

Adarro
06-10-2011, 01:59 PM
Sadly I agree with Chai..
(not sad to agree with Chai so much as the 'never gonna happen' reasons)

I doubt I'm 'hard core' enough to perma death, but friendly fire etc would add a layer of experience / immersion / team play.

I'd definitively be 1 of the ~1 percent.

somenewnoob
06-10-2011, 02:04 PM
Korthos would be a happening place on that server!

Cyr
06-10-2011, 03:02 PM
Small demand for this general option + constant sniping between different PDers about what is really PD = A wasteland of a server

rest
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
Everything old is new again.

DoctorWhofan
06-10-2011, 03:07 PM
Everything old is new again.

heehee!

I agree with Chai. Not enough peeps to make it viable.

Memnir
06-10-2011, 03:08 PM
It would not be able to sustain a population high enough to justify it's existence.

katana_one
06-10-2011, 03:24 PM
I think if it was just a "hardcore" rules server, and not specifically a permadeath server, it might have more viability.

Rules I might like to see on such a server would be things like "friendly fire" aoe spells, the return of the death xp penalty and fewer shrines.

If permadeathers came over to the server, they could still play by their individual guild rules.

DoctorWhofan
06-10-2011, 03:28 PM
I think if it was just a "hardcore" rules server, and not specifically a permadeath server, it might have more viability.

Rules I might like to see on such a server would be things like "friendly fire" aoe spells, the return of the death xp penalty and fewer shrines.

If permadeathers came over to the server, they could still play by their individual guild rules.

better, but I doubt there would still be enough for a population. And I'd like the death penaty back in the game anyways.

Ungood
06-10-2011, 03:37 PM
I have always been a supporter of a Perma-Death server.

Not sure if I like what you have described, but, I could see a server that abides by the Perma-Death rules of No Release/No Rez Shrine.

Memnir
06-10-2011, 03:50 PM
Not sure if I like what you have described,To me, this is another reason a server like this would never fly... too many people have their own versions in their head of how to make a non-standard rules server. And, were it made, none of them would be happy with the stew of options Turbine decided to go with.

Ungood
06-10-2011, 06:11 PM
I take it back! I think this ia great idea, but it needs more *Hard Core*


i know i would play on such a server alot, especially if i couldn't find a group for what i was looking for on a main character.

As opposed to letting players play around on this server, they should make it so that you can only transfer a 20th level toon to this server, and in fact, make it so you have to transfer all your 20th toons to the server at once. Just to make it a real challenge. and have it so you could not start any new characters either, that way, the only way you could do low level content, is to TR and do it that way.

That would really divide the brave from the talkers.

But you know Memnir, they really *Should* make a server that is just this scary place to go. The kind of server that no one would have the guts to step into and all the vets keep talking about, but making it so they would risk all they have right now to do it. Just to see how sincere they are to want that, and to stop topics like this from coming up.

And it would not affect the rest of us either. Want hard? Transfer your toons there.

Memnir
06-10-2011, 09:27 PM
But you know Memnir, they really *Should* make a server that is just this scary place to go. The kind of server that no one would have the guts to step into and all the vets keep talking about, but making it so they would risk all they have right now to do it. Just to see how sincere they are to want that, and to stop topics like this from coming up.Why?


Don't get me wrong - I think it's a shame that the challenge level of the game has slipped the way that it has. I miss the days when Blindness and Curse had to be cured, not wait till the timer runs out. But, the money is in mass-appeal - not catering to niches. The game already catered to a niche crowd... the dedicated D&D gamer. And, the game nearly withered on the vine as a result. They opened it up, made it more palatable to a wider audience... and now the game has a new lease on life.

If they made a server that catered to any brand of niche play... which one? Why should Hardcore get a server and the RPers not? Or the zergers? Or the soloists... and so on. And, if they created any brand of specialty server, those stalwarts who enjoy that type of play will be unhappy because Turbine did not pluck their version of the way server should be from their brows. It would be as unfulfilling as the current ones because it is not the way they want it to be and all the ways it is different will grate on their nerves.

Plus, creating a separate server would require extra testing and development time on content to make sure it played nicely with the rules of that server. This would, in effect, make an optional form of play into a Turbine-sanctioned one - a step I don't think they wish to make.



Never gonna happen.

Trillea
06-10-2011, 09:45 PM
Or the zergers?

I would re-sub and pay an extra $5 a month for a server without DA.

Kmnh
06-10-2011, 09:53 PM
I think permadeath is overkill. But I'd pay a VIP subscription for a server under the old rules.

Curses and blindness are permanent.
Epic mobs are warded, have lots of HP, and most of the time should be avoided instead of fought.
Spells don't disappear when a caster mob dies. (remember the sleet storms on the market quests? those were amazing)


To go even further back, we could have the old shortman-friendly raid loot rules. And the XP penalties for death.

Ungood
06-11-2011, 07:45 AM
Why?

Because that is what would make it fun, right?

That seems to what the people who start these topics and want "Hard Core" claim harder would be more "fun", So why be half way about it?

Go All the Way!

Perma-Death. Max Raises equal to yru Con Score, Liek Old School PnP. Put that in! No raise shines, no cake, no thing but the cleric bringing you back, and even then, you have what? 14 - 25 raises total in your life time.
Friendly Fire: But make it in Both directions. mass Heals and Cures, heal the mobs, all the AOE spells affect players, Buffs affect the mobs (better watch those haste spells!)
Death Loss: Not just exp and gear (All your gear at the bottom of a pool of lava), but also have it so it causes permanent stat loss, like it does in the PnP game.
No Potion/Wand vendors: I mean come on. What DM really just let players buy hundred of cure light wounds potions? Like Never!
No Magic Items: Have it so all items need to crafted, and only essences dropped chests, and like Old School, PnP, making magic items cost level EXP. Just to keep things hard core!
Never Ending Spell Effects: Spells like Slow, Blind, Curse, Hold, Fear, and the like would continue until you made your save, or were cured, no waiting for them to run out.
And that is not all! We can add more!
I am sure if I looked over the forums. I would find that incorporating this in, would still not placate some of the requests I have seen for a "hard core" server. So, why not put it all in?


Don't get me wrong - I think it's a shame that the challenge level of the game has slipped the way that it has. I miss the days when Blindness and Curse had to be cured, not wait till the timer runs out.I hated that to be honest. It made no senses that unless you had the means to cure these problems you were pretty much dead. Which, when you start, after a few high repair bills, and maybe a single gear upgrade, you did not have the money to spend on pots and wands. And that is not fun. Very discouraging to a starting player too.

Someone said, vets and older players see the game with aged eyes, and maybe have lost grip on what it is like for a really new player to have to do this game. What is means to get blinded, relaize you have all of a 100 plat on you, no potions, and no wands, no one with the ability to remove it, because the cleric has all of 3 spells, and none of them were remove blindness, as Bless, AID and CLW took front, (Maybe divine power, if they are a more melee kind of cleric) and that single spell, just ended the entire dungeon for you.

I was quite happy with that change.


But, the money is in mass-appeal - not catering to niches. The game already catered to a niche crowd... the dedicated D&D gamer. And, the game nearly withered on the vine as a result. They opened it up, made it more palatable to a wider audience... and now the game has a new lease on life.
If they made a server that catered to any brand of niche play... which one? Why should Hardcore get a server and the RPers not? Or the zergers? Or the soloists... and so on. And, if they created any brand of specialty server, those stalwarts who enjoy that type of play will be unhappy because Turbine did not pluck their version of the way server should be from their brows. It would be as unfulfilling as the current ones because it is not the way they want it to be and all the ways it is different will grate on their nerves. It seems every other week, I see a post about how they need to make the game harder and more nasty to the players and that would somehow make it more fun!

Ok, to be fair, it is a small group that is saying anything and honestly most players are cool with the game as it is. Hence why it is thriving again.

But, given these request won't stop, I would rather the people who want to be entertained with their desire and have all that stuff be put on it's own server away from the rest of the game, like Lamannia (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9). So players could indulge their need to make the game harder on themselves without making harder on me. Because, I kinda like the way things are right now.

But, as per some of your suggestions:

RP: Putting in RP acts, like emotes and facial expressions in the normal servers would only be a good thing, even some more "zerg" style players might end up using them. So RP does not decrease or impose upon my fun of the game or change the rules I play by. So adding in more RP options to the game, would be a non-issue as far as the game mechanics go. In fact, I could see some more RP options and emotes added in.

SOLO: No one needs a "Solo" server, in fact, a real solo player would never be caught dead going to a watered down server for soloers, as being able to solo on a game that was not designed for it was part of the accomplishment of soloing to begin with, and a bit of it's appeal.

Zerg: Servers: Ok. something similar to this has been brought up. A "vet" server, where players who have been playing for a long enough time, and could just transfer to, a one time "free of charge" deal, so they would not have to deal with, well, noobs and newbs. And I could get behind that. Just a private server that you can only transfer a 20th toon to, to lessen the influx of players that have no idea what they are doing.

But the pinnacle difference here, is that these Hard Core requests are asking the Developers to change the rules of the game. Rules that were taken away because the majority of the gaming community did not like them.


Never gonna happen.Well, it *could* happen, if they made it P2P, (Have it ViP/Sub, Only) and then have it's own developers work on it to make it as the players want, with all these hard core rules.. oh.. wait.. they tried that already and... it failed, didn't it?

So, I really wish they would stop asking for it.

Kelavam
06-11-2011, 08:27 AM
All of these options SHOULD be something that is part of a guild make up. It should not be something that is server based, but more things that happen when you create a guild.

I would love to see more done on the guild front as opposed to a server based requirements. Because so much has been pointed out that even hard core permadeathers cannot agree on the best permadeath style of play, these should be decided on a guild level. They have the core of a guild already in game, it would be nice to see if that could be expanded on - it would make a decision to join a guild be based more on just whether they zerg, rose-sniff, role-play, etc.; it would require thought to thier rules and how that would affect you.

More choices, I guess. And I would not be opposed to more variance in difficulty for unlocking a quest either, but that is for another thread. It kind of touches on the hard-core thing. These are things I have seen in other games; that I think might appease some players. I have seen plenty of games with the "ironman" option at player creation - 1 death, and your character is gone.

As a programmer myself, I know these changes not be easy. I do not expect any of them, but those would be suggestions, in a nutshell.

Gkar
06-11-2011, 08:33 AM
I think if it was just a "hardcore" rules server, and not specifically a permadeath server, it might have more viability.

Rules I might like to see on such a server would be things like "friendly fire" aoe spells, the return of the death xp penalty and fewer shrines.

If permadeathers came over to the server, they could still play by their individual guild rules.

Same problem in that different people might want different things on a 'hard core" server and thus I'm not sure it could reach critical mass.

You might light friendly fire - others might realize this would be a griefers joy and would want to avoid that.

Some might want the entire loot tables changed/nerfed (pretty much required if you really want hard core)

Others might want everything BtC.

What exactly is hard core?

FrancisP.Fancypants
06-11-2011, 08:39 AM
Go All the Way!

Perma-Death. Max Raises equal to yru Con Score, Liek Old School PnP. Put that in! No raise shines, no cake, no thing but the cleric bringing you back, and even then, you have what? 14 - 25 raises total in your life time.
Friendly Fire: But make it in Both directions. mass Heals and Cures, heal the mobs, all the AOE spells affect players, Buffs affect the mobs (better watch those haste spells!)
Death Loss: Not just exp and gear (All your gear at the bottom of a pool of lava), but also have it so it causes permanent stat loss, like it does in the PnP game.
No Potion/Wand vendors: I mean come on. What DM really just let players buy hundred of cure light wounds potions? Like Never!
No Magic Items: Have it so all items need to crafted, and only essences dropped chests, and like Old School, PnP, making magic items cost level EXP. Just to keep things hard core!
Never Ending Spell Effects: Spells like Slow, Blind, Curse, Hold, Fear, and the like would continue until you made your save, or were cured, no waiting for them to run out.
And that is not all! We can add more!
I am sure if I looked over the forums. I would find that incorporating this in, would still not placate some of the requests I have seen for a "hard core" server. So, why not put it all in?


So basically a permadeath PvP server?
That would be delightful, but I don't even want to think about the explosion of whiny forum threads that would happen.

masterzzan
06-11-2011, 07:05 PM
if you use both perm-death and the friendly fire rules then players out to get you would just kill you on the quest. not a nice thing for a level 19 to have. an assassin in the party can really make it stink. watch the south-park Episode about wow. you will get the picture.

joueur
06-11-2011, 08:06 PM
fun

Perma-Death.
Friendly Fire
Death Loss:
No Potion/Wand vendors:
No Magic Items:
Never Ending Spell Effects:
And that is not all! We can add more!
"hard core"

RP:

SOLO:
Zerg:
Hard Core asking the Developers to change the rules

Dream != reality.

And btw Eberron has lots of magic (Airships!) so no potion vendor = not Eberron.

Dirac
06-11-2011, 08:15 PM
1. A separate rules server is a bad idea and a waste of development time.
2. I, too, would pay extra money to eliminate DA.
3. I like Ungood's use of color.

Ungood
06-11-2011, 08:55 PM
3. I like Ungood's use of color.
Thanks.

This topic however, has made me think of this comic. Many of you might know it. as I modified to meet the gamer crowd and I think I got it right.


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/IwishthiswouldsuckmoreGeeks.jpg

caution
06-11-2011, 08:57 PM
I always support a PD server and would love to see MV rules applied, though I doubt that will fly. The biggest objections I have seen is in having one server that everyone wants to be on (or possibly remains empty).

[QUOTE=Dirac;3852975]1. A separate rules server is a bad idea and a waste of development time.[QUOTE]

A hardcore server with special rules is quite achievable from a development perspective when you do the following:
- Disable auction house
- Remote pots/scrolls/wands from vendors
- Remove casual mode
- Make all shrines non-reusable (maybe just only have elite difficulty)
- Maybe even bring back the old XP penalty on death?

These are not big changes and plug issues with the current servers (yes, why did they remove ddoor scrolls from vendors).

Development effort for a separate server is not a problem.

caution
06-11-2011, 09:06 PM
As a supporter for hardcore play, I have to admit this seems like a losing battle thesedays.

Unfortunately for most of us, the options presented are not hardcore enough! Turbine has been dumbing down the game for years, and the DDO store gives enough "I win" buttons that it will need a major move away from the mainline game.

Most of my toons get to level 10 with starter gear and blank spots, I have run quests enough time to never need a skill like spot, have blanket immunities available against most forms of insta-death, or have some way to beat the AI without enough cheese.

I would love to see an option for advanced play, but unfortunately all we get is Epic which doesn't fix the underlying problem we have with over-powered gear and oversupply of resources.

Ungood
06-11-2011, 10:39 PM
I would love to see an option for advanced play

Try getting all your levels by only doing elite only quests.

Doomcrew
06-11-2011, 11:10 PM
[QUOTE=caution;3853016]I always support a PD server and would love to see MV rules applied, though I doubt that will fly. The biggest objections I have seen is in having one server that everyone wants to be on (or possibly remains empty).

[QUOTE=Dirac;3852975]1. A separate rules server is a bad idea and a waste of development time.[QUOTE]

A hardcore server with special rules is quite achievable from a development perspective when you do the following:
- Disable auction house
- Remote pots/scrolls/wands from vendors
- Remove casual mode
- Make all shrines non-reusable (maybe just only have elite difficulty)
- Maybe even bring back the old XP penalty on death?

These are not big changes and plug issues with the current servers (yes, why did they remove ddoor scrolls from vendors).


A PD server with an xp penalty for dying?
umm, doesn't PD kind of enforce a different kind of death penalty?

HallowedOne
06-11-2011, 11:47 PM
I'd vote Khyber for HardCore server. And yes, that idea is EXCELLENT.

Ungood
06-12-2011, 06:32 AM
A PD server with an xp penalty for dying?
umm, doesn't PD kind of enforce a different kind of death penalty?

Auctually, Perma Death, allows for raising, as long as it is done by a "brought in" means, IE: a Cleric can raise, someone can raise scroll you back to life, some allow for spirit cakes, as long as they are used by the living member to raise a dead one, etc.

But, no shrines and not releasing. If you die alone, you are dead. If everyone dies, they all are dead.

Ecoski
06-12-2011, 06:45 AM
Instead of making a whole new server for this, couldn't they just make it an option when you're about to enter a quest? So instead of casual, normal, hard, elite and epic, there could be a box below it which you could select, which would be "hardcore"? Therefore you could check "hardcore" and then select one of the other difficulties.
I suppose you could take it further, and allow the party leader to select different tweaks in a window, such as perma-stat damage etc. The only issue I could see is if these tweaks should change the amount of xp you receive, or if you should just receive the amount that the "softcore" difficulty would get.

Just an idea :)

donfilibuster
06-12-2011, 06:19 PM
Maybe it can be a store purchase like the vet status, which lets you create one toon with the permadeath limitations.
(would add a new title at the bio, to tell them apart)

Dysmetria
06-12-2011, 09:18 PM
i just can't get myself to makebelieve about rules in game that don't exist.So you don't follow loot rules, or the rules your party leaders set on the group, or any other rules your guild places on you and your guildmembers besids the permadeath rules either?

I imagine it would be a lot easier for you to learn some self-control than it would be for Turbine to program an entirely new ruleset and set up a whole new server for it.

Doxmaster
06-13-2011, 12:24 AM
From looking playing at roughly random times each day in different servers, it is my opinion that several servers need to be combined to save the servers from a slow death. creating another server would drain a bit of the population from each...quite possibly excerbating the issue.