PDA

View Full Version : Usurp issues... Again...



CarpeNoctu
06-10-2011, 04:51 AM
Because of the human tendency to jump to conclusions and make assumptions based on limited understanding, and the knowledge that this tendency is magnified and multiplied greatly when less than the necessary amount of information is given, I ask for 2 things up front:

1. Please bear with me for a few minutes while I explain a few things that I feel need to be explained...

2. Please read everything before you start tossing the fireballs...

First off, I completely understand the fact that there are so many who are totally against the idea of a usurp function being implemented at all. I totally accept that someone had to use their hard earned cash to buy turbine points, or run their fair share of quests to earn enough favor to earn enough turbine points in order to purchase the guild charter and start their own guild.

I also understand the idea that, if a guild leader doesn't log in for a while and didn't tell the guild what was going on, there may be any number of unknown circumstances that could have prevented him/her from being in the game and letting their guild know (such as military deployment, hospitalization, family or work related emergency, natural disaster, alien abduction...) and it is not always feasible to log in one last time to say something. It would be a bit harsh to come back in the game after months of defending your country (or being probed) only to find that you're no longer the leader of your own guild, or worse, you're no longer IN the guild.

At the same time, I understand the position of the guild members that are still there, logging in and playing the game and having zero control over the situation. They get to spend their hard farmed plat or hard earned cash to buy turbine points, or run their fair share of quests to earn enough favor to earn enough turbine points in order to purchase the guild ship and amenities, organize guild runs, help everyone out, try to maintain the peace, recruit new members etc, only to be told that, in the face of an absentee leader, they have no options because, no matter how much of their money, their plat or themselves they have put into the guild, the guild still is not considered to be theirs, so they just have to watch everything fall apart or start over.

People join different guilds for many reasons. There are personal connections, the "ideology" of a particular guild appeals to them, the guild in question runs a lot of raids or epics together, or perhaps they just want to belong somewhere... The possible reasons are far too many to attempt to list here but the point is, for the same reason/s we may join a guild in the first place, we may also quit a guild and join another, regardless of our "rank".

Our guild is falling apart. Our guild leader has been gone for nearly 4 months, we have lost the majority of our officers and we are losing lots of members because of the lack of a leader and the lack of ability to advance (yes, surprisingly the ability to become an officer does appear to be important to some people) and various other reasons.

I was in our guild for just about a year when my guild leader stopped logging in. It was long enough for us to become very good friends. I happen to know enough about him to know that he is not in the military, that he has never been gone for more than a week (and never without letting us know what was going on) that he 'is' completely obsessed with DDO and his greatest desire (in the game) is to achieve Completionist. I joined the guild when his first toon was a lvl 18 AA, and I've watched him grind out 3 lives after that (Cleric, Rogue and Fighter). I know how much he loves this game. I also know that he would not disappear like this unless there was something huge going on.

For over 3 months I have been unsuccessful at contacting him via email, Skype or text. I have no clue where he is or what's going on with him. Our guild leader is not some random person that just wanted a sense of power and control and chose to have that via guild leadership, either. He's a great human being with a big heart that loves to help people in any way he can.

This whole situation and the troubles with the usurp function have put me in a tricky spot... Not only am I my guild leader's friend, and not only is he someone I trust and respect and whose trust and respect I have earned... I am also his successor.

Here's my suggestion: Forget the usurp function. Get rid of it altogether. If someone wants to be a guild leader, as in, they feel the desire to have that title, let them start a guild. Instead, just allow the "powers" of leadership to pass to the successor so that we can promote new officers and have the "authority" of the title without the title. Make the leader an "unexpellable" position so that he/she will always remain the leader of their guild and can slide right back into place when/if they return... The guild can deal with the politics when the time comes.

To be perfectly honest, I am of the opinion that the renown system did more harm to the game than good. There are more elitists, more control freaks, more politics and less fun than I have seen in my time playing DDO, and it annoys me to no end... Now there's this situation which, if we didn't have the renown system and all that goes with it, an absent leader wouldn't be this big of an issue... But, as this is the system we have, this is the system we have to work with.

We have put too much time, effort and money (both real and programmed) into our guild to be told that it's not ours, particularly when our leader NEVER thought of it as his exclusively. We have lost far too many officers to make it without new ones, and we have lost massive amounts of renown, and the situation is only made worse by the new crafting system causing people to take gear or essences rather than renown rewards whenever they can.

Look... My guild leader did not start our guild because he wanted to be in position of power or authority, but because he wanted to be in a position of responsibility. He worked hard to make a positive name for our guild and wanted people to know that our guild was always up for some fun, and always helpful. These are the ideals that attracted me to this guild and these are the ideals that have kept me there for so long. I do not want to see it fall apart.

By now, our guild has lost about 2/3 of its officers and we're about to lose a few more if we don't get solution.

Just as a side note, I also feel it should be a little less easy for a guild leader to disband an active guild in situations like this. If I started a guild and ended up with some of my officers and members putting more into the guild than I did, in terms of money, time or whatever else, how is it fair for me to get ticked off and blow all their time and money?

Jiirix
06-10-2011, 06:01 AM
I think a lot of players leave without a word because the game was causing them serious real life problems. When you realize that just playing a little bit less wont work, you might just delete the source of your problems. (Or an other person may do so.) Military deployment, hospitalization, family or work related emergency, natural disaster, alien abduction sounds better, but in most cases I guess gaming itself was the reason to quit. And when you just deleted your games because it got out of hand you dont want to talk to your gameing pals about it. For sure they would try to talk you out of it, probably you dont know what to say and perhaps you feel like letting them down. I dont know what happend to you freind, but the more time one invests into a game (own guild, complettionist etc.) the higher are the chances you suddenly come to the "srew this all" point.

But I am against how the usurp thing works at the moment. Because there should be a "I' am back and can cope with it now" option. When a guild leader comes back after a longer absence officer status should be granted. And the officers/guild members should have an option to promote him/her back. Dont get me wrong, I dont think that all powerplayers and guildleaders game to much. I just think if someone took the emergency break and then comes back after a while he/she shouldn't be a nobody in their own guild. Gaming responsibly is better then quitting it all and shouldn't be punnished. Maybe Turbine can give us a button to defer our account for weeks or month. Perhaps that would save some exams and relationships without the community losing great players/guildleaders for ever.

IanYang
06-10-2011, 09:19 AM
Currently I have encountered the same problem as you. Our leader hasn't logged on for over 2 months.

I think the succession mechanism is okay. (but 6 months is too impractically long) I understand that you respect your leader and don't want to take over his position, but you can pass the leadership back to him whenever you want to after you become the leader. There's nothing to worry about.

ProdigalGuru
06-10-2011, 09:33 AM
It takes more than a guild charter to make you a leader.

Rally the troops, hoard your TP.

Tell everyone you are forming a guild, and they are welcome to come.

Have a guild reformation party!

AZgreentea
06-10-2011, 09:33 AM
I think the current standard of 6 months is a reaction to the realization of how little of the player base even knew that you could usurp when Turbine announced the changes to guild Usurp a few months ago.

I hate to break it to you, but guilds fall apart sometimes. Go to the harbor and look at the Founder Guild list for your server at the memorial, then try to see how many of those guilds are actually still on your server. Many of those guilds have broken apart and reformed under a new name. Many just turned to dust. It happens. If you are truly a tight knit group, you will find a solution.

Its just a name, if that is what you are worried about when breaking and reforming. There are so many guilds, that most people dont have any real issues running with an unknown guild. Its the ones they remember for bad reasons they wont run with. :D

Chai
06-10-2011, 09:39 AM
The big fault I see with the usurp system is when a leader goes AFK, and the AFK is known so the officers + most long standing members dont feel the need to swap leadership. Then, the time period for usurp passes for the other people higher in the chain of command, and out of the blue.....BLAM.

Congrats, someone you /guilded 2 weeks ago is now the leader of "insert your guild name here".

/theme music.

Millitary is but one reason this could happen.
In my example, a couple who was the leader / successor, had their baby and took a couple months off.

RudeIota
06-10-2011, 09:52 AM
Well said and I agree with many of your points.

However, surely there are some officers in your guild? This all got me thinking about what powers a guild leader has and I honestly can't think of much that is missing with your leader gone. In effect, you still have a functional guild. Officers can update the MotD, buy ship amenities, invite others to the guild etc... You can still communicate outside of DDO with forums, guildportal and such and if you don't have admin access to those things, someone can simply create a new one until your real leader returns.

I don't know if you have a few (or any) officers and it might be somewhat unfair to shift the burden of invites, organization, upkeep and maintenance to them... But if someone can step up and take leadership (in their actions, not in title of course), there's no reason your guild still can't thrive and operate about the same.

CarpeNoctu
06-11-2011, 12:13 AM
Yeah, we do still have some officers, but many of them are talking about leaving the guild. The problem is, in my mind, this is a game and we need to do what WE need to do to enhance our game play. If running solo/joining this guild or that one/leaving this guild or that one/raiding/running epics etc. is your thing then that's what you need to do, and I have no hard feelings about it. When it's officers that leave, it's no big deal as there are plenty who can be promoted... Until we're left without a leader, that is.

As for the suggestion that we simply start over... As I stated in my original post, the problem there is all the time and money (including real life cash) that will be lost. The problem we're having here is that the cash won't be lost because we made purchases that we weren't happy with, or made purchases and lost our product or anything else like that... It will have been lost simply because our leader is no longer in the game or otherwise reachable at this point in time, and we have no option for those of us who are left (concerning the leadership role, that is).

If the renown system had not been introduced, then starting a new guild would be no big deal, as nothing would be lost. If we were only a lvl 5 guild, then nothing would be lost... But our guild is lvl 56 (teetering on the edge of 55/56 for about a month now with zero gain) and that's a bit more difficult to get back... Particularly when it means that we'd have to spend even more cash to have the ship we currently have when we reach this lvl again. Personally, I don't too much care about the ship and buffs, but I'm not the only one in the guild either... The majority of our other members do care about it.

/End Rant

Thanx for your feedback everyone... My eyebrows appreciate the lack of fireballs :)

Don1966
06-11-2011, 12:57 AM
unless there are some things i am unaware of, which is highly possible, the only powers a leader has that officers don't are the ability to appoint a successor, promote and demote officers, and disband a guild. what i would like to see is the successor be given the ability to promote and demote officers. this would go a long way in helping guilds with absent leaders to stay together. i also think the 6 month usurp period should be reduced, possibly to 3 months. as it is now if something were to happen to me, my successor has to wait for way to long before he can usurp.

Darsith
06-11-2011, 02:07 AM
Most of the issues arising with a usurp option fall to a lack of officer help. If the successor was able to promote new officers I could see this whole situation being less.

Now I do not think that the successor should be able to demote officers or kick them. They are still an officer after all. The only extra 'power' would be the promotion ability. (this wouldn't affect guilds that had the successor be a leaders alt)

This has been said before, but I think the biggest issue here is that leaders/officers have no control over the guild system. More ranks, custom guild settings are desired and needed.

If Turbine was able to implement the system they wanted with toggle ability it would be nice.
example of default:
leader is afk 30 days -> successor usurp possible
leader is afk 60 days -> officer usurp possible (if successor didn't)
leader is afk 90 days -> member usurp possible (if successor or officers didn't)

example of custom settings:
afk timer -> 60days
usurp options -> successor
auto lead grant upon return: true

leader afk 60 days -> successor has ability to usurp command if needed
usurp does not pass any further.
if the lead returns lead is automatically restored.

I would want a system that had everything configurable. Not even sure if this is possible, but would be nice. That way if a leader wants to keep control indefinitely, they turn it off. Usurp possibility will never exist. But if the leader viewed the guild as more of a communal thing and less of a personal thing they could have full control over who/when usurp can happen.

any usurp options available would only be available to original leader. If the successor has assumed leadership they cannot change usurp options. The leader would have to return to the game and resign the post to the successor.

ceiswyn
06-11-2011, 04:02 AM
Go to the harbor and look at the Founder Guild list for your server at the memorial

...there's a Founder Guild list on a memorial in the harbour? Where?

(And incidentally; did the EU Founder Guilds lose their Founder status when we moved across to the US?)

CarpeNoctu
06-11-2011, 05:48 AM
...there's a Founder Guild list on a memorial in the harbour? Where?

The big fountain in the middle of the area at the top of the ramp above the Harbor trainers, right in front of the Inspired Quarter is the Memorial Fountain or something like that... If you click on it, it will give you a list of the founders.

(And incidentally; did the EU Founder Guilds lose their Founder status when we moved across to the US?)

I have no clue about that, but I've been curious myself...


if the leader viewed the guild as more of a communal thing and less of a personal thing they could have full control over who/when usurp can happen.

This is exactly what my guild leader wanted when he appointed me as his successor. As he explained it to me, if anything ever happened to him (he didn't even consider the possibility that he'd simply stop playing) I'd have the ability to usurp after a month or so according to his understanding at the time. He never envisioned the guild falling apart because the usurp function was pushed to 6 months...


Don, to the best of my knowledge, you're right about the powers of the leader vs those of the successor and officers. And that is my entire problem. I don't necessarily need the power to boot people at this point, but if I don't get the power to appoint new officers, our guild will go under.

RJBsComputer
06-12-2011, 01:13 AM
My Guild uses a simple solution.....I make everyone an Officer right way. There are no Members in my Guild. What this does is really simple. Anyone can invite anyone into the Guild, but no Officer can grief the Members by booting them out of the Guild.

This actually happen once in the Guild under the previous leader. After several months had gone by, he promoted a YOUNG teenager to Officer. One day a few weeks later, he had kicked out all of the members from the guild and then quit the Guild. It took the Guild a couple of months to get everyone back in.

When I took over when The Leader went F2P and started jumping to dif servers for TP, I made everyone an Officer so only I can boot them.

As for your problem, if peeps don't want to leave the guild because of RL money, then let the ones who want to leave...leave. When the timer dings, then you can start your NEW Guild. If the peeps that have put money into the guild leave, then they lied to you about not wanting to start a NEW Guild Chart.