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Daim
06-05-2011, 09:58 AM
Currently it takes a halfling 20 enhancement points to receive a +4 to hit and +8 to damage on a opponent under combat advantage.

Compared to a half elf who can get more sneak attack damage with the rogue dilettante for only 6 action points. Of course this doesn't stack with rogue levels or give a bonus to hit but the cost makes much more sense.

I would suggest changing the halfling bonus in one of three ways to make it more appealing.
1. Half the cost to 10 action points from 20. If this is too powerful a change see option 2.
2. Make it cost double the half elf cost because of the bonus to hit, so 12 action points.
3. Change it so the cunning enhancements are no longer a requisite to take the guile line.

I welcome other ideas as well so please leave your feedback.

Requiro
06-05-2011, 01:40 PM
Your 2nd and 3rd proposal is nice. But:



(...)
I welcome other ideas as well so please leave your feedback.

So my vision is something like this:


Halfling Cunning
Higher levels require always lower one. First have no requirement at all.

1st (1 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 1 level)
2nd (1 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 3 level)
3rd (2 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Hide skill while in sneak mode (available on 7 level)
4th (3 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Hide and Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 11 level)
5th (3 AP): +1 to hit and +1 to confirm critical hits while flanking an enemy and +1 Hide and Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 15 level)




Halfling Guile – all levels cost only 1 AP
Higher levels require always lower one. There are some additional requirements.

1st (available on 1 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 1st Halfling Cunning)
2nd (available on 2 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
3rd (available on 4 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 2ndHalfling Cunning)
4th (available on 6 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
5th (available on 8 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 3rd Halfling Cunning)
6th (available on 10 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
7th (available on 12 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 4th Halfling Cunning)
8th (available on 14 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
9th (available on 16 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 5th Halfling Cunning)
10th (available on 18 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.



What my proposal change?


With the cost of 15 AP you can get the same bonus like today (+4 to hit, +8 dmg, +4 bluff) and:

Faster – on level 14 instead 15 (also faster when leveling)
With additional bonus while sneaking: +2 Hide and +1 Move Silently.



With the cost of 20 AP you can get full chain:

+5 to-hit on level 15 while flanking an enemy
+10 sneak attack damage on level 18
+5 to bluff skill on level 18
+3 to Hide and +2 Move Silently while in sneak mode
+1 to confirm critical hits while flanking an enemy

lethargos
06-05-2011, 01:53 PM
Reducing the ap cost should be done. Guile/cunning is a defining halfling trait as is half-elf diletante. Still rogue diletante surpasses halfling guile/cunning in terms of ap efficiency by a mile

Daim
06-06-2011, 06:54 PM
Your 2nd and 3rd proposal is nice. But:



So my vision is something like this:


Halfling Cunning
Higher levels require always lower one. First have no requirement at all.

1st (1 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 1 level)
2nd (1 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 3 level)
3rd (2 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Hide skill while in sneak mode (available on 7 level)
4th (3 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Hide and Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 11 level)
5th (3 AP): +1 to hit and +1 to confirm critical hits while flanking an enemy and +1 Hide and Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 15 level)




Halfling Guile – all levels cost only 1 AP
Higher levels require always lower one. There are some additional requirements.

1st (available on 1 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 1st Halfling Cunning)
2nd (available on 2 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
3rd (available on 4 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 2ndHalfling Cunning)
4th (available on 6 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
5th (available on 8 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 3rd Halfling Cunning)
6th (available on 10 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
7th (available on 12 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 4th Halfling Cunning)
8th (available on 14 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
9th (available on 16 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 5th Halfling Cunning)
10th (available on 18 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.



What my proposal change?


With the cost of 15 AP you can get the same bonus like today (+4 to hit, +8 dmg, +4 bluff) and:

Faster – on level 14 instead 15 (also faster when leveling)
With additional bonus while sneaking: +2 Hide and +1 Move Silently.



With the cost of 20 AP you can get full chain:

+5 to-hit on level 15 while flanking an enemy
+10 sneak attack damage on level 18
+5 to bluff skill on level 18
+3 to Hide and +2 Move Silently while in sneak mode
+1 to confirm critical hits while flanking an enemy



I like the idea behind this but I don't think they will make 10 levels of guile. What could you do to the current setup of 4 levels behind each?

Requiro
06-07-2011, 04:52 AM
I like the idea behind this but I don't think they will make 10 levels of guile. What could you do to the current setup of 4 levels behind each?

Nothing. Just like with other change, if you don’t reset enhancements you will play with old one. When you get reset, you can't take old one any longer.

Just like with Arcane Elemental Manipulation ect. In Update 9.

altrocks
06-07-2011, 05:12 AM
Nothing. Just like with other change, if you don’t reset enhancements you will play with old one. When you get reset, you can't take old one any longer.

Just like with Arcane Elemental Manipulation ect. In Update 9.

Those enhancements were removed and no longer worked because they didn't want a repeat of the crit-rage barbarian enhancements lasting well past their deletion. All my casters lost their fire/ice line enhancements and had effectively no boost to damage until I reset and spent them again. I don't think they'll be allowing people to keep deleted enhancements anymore, especially when they're game-breaking ones like combined elemental ones were. If they had left those in post-U9 no capped sorcs would have bothered taking savant lines since their fire and ice would have been maxed already and they'd still get the new spells' damage/duration/etc. I would have preferred if they had let me do that as I wouldn't have bothered TR'ing my sorc then.

Razcar
06-07-2011, 04:00 PM
/Signed, either suggestion 1 or 3


Nothing. Just like with other change, if you don’t reset enhancements you will play with old one. When you get reset, you can't take old one any longer.

Just like with Arcane Elemental Manipulation ect. In Update 9.Seems to me you misunderstood him. I think he was asking how your suggestion would look if you used 4 tiers instead of 10. And not what will happen to the old enhancements if we get new ones.

Requiro
06-07-2011, 04:52 PM
/Signed, either suggestion 1 or 3

Seems to me you misunderstood him. I think he was asking how your suggestion would look if you used 4 tiers instead of 10. And not what will happen to the old enhancements if we get new ones.

Well... I that so I will do someting like this:


Halfling Cunning
Higher levels require always lower one. First have no requirement at all.

1st (1AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 2 level)
2nd (1AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 5 level)
3rd (2AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 10 level)
4th (3AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Move Silently and Hide skill while in sneak mode (available on 14 level)




Halfling Guile
Higher levels require always lower one. There are some additional requirements.

1st (1 AP, available on 3 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill (Req: 1st Halfling Cunning)
2nd (1 AP available on 6 level): +2 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill (Req: 2nd Halfling Cunning)
3rd (2 AP available on 11 level): +3 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill (Req: 3rd Halfling Cunning)
4th (3 AP available on 15 level): +3 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill (Req: 4th Halfling Cunning)

Daim
06-10-2011, 02:06 PM
/Signed, either suggestion 1 or 3

Seems to me you misunderstood him. I think he was asking how your suggestion would look if you used 4 tiers instead of 10. And not what will happen to the old enhancements if we get new ones.

This is exactly what I meant, thanks for clearing it up!

Bodic
06-10-2011, 02:35 PM
yes 1234 is expensive race AP balance cost is important.

I would be happy keeping current tiers it is a fair boost.

I would not like guile free of cunning req or 1111
now 1234 1122 would be ok IMHO.

Lithic
06-10-2011, 02:39 PM
+8 to damage for 10 AP is already pretty damn cheap (please don't pretend people bother with +4 to hit while sneak attacking, even rogues don't bother with that unless they need them for Assassin).

To reduce the cost would make it even more overpowered.

Bodic
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
+8 to damage for 10

Its 20 AP to get +8SA cunning 10 guile 10

in order to get guile IV(+8SA damage) you must have cunning IV(+4 SA 2hit)

Lithic
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Its 20 AP to get +8SA cunning 10 guile 10

in order to get guile IV(+8SA damage) you must have cunning IV(+4 SA 2hit)

Still cheap for such a huge increase.

aristarchus1000
06-10-2011, 02:56 PM
+8 to damage for 10 AP is already pretty damn cheap (please don't pretend people bother with +4 to hit while sneak attacking, even rogues don't bother with that unless they need them for Assassin).

To reduce the cost would make it even more overpowered.

That is the reason he made suggestion #3. You have to have the to-hit line to get the damage line.

Doubt it would overpowered, even if that is the case, given that Half-elves get 10.5 for 6 APs.

Eladrin
06-10-2011, 03:08 PM
Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

shortdevils
06-10-2011, 03:16 PM
Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

Nearly anyone that wants any amount of sneak attack would meet the dex requirement ( twf / finese)

Ofcourse halfling should cost more since it gives bonuses to hit and stacks with rogue sneak attack but for people playing monk, half elf is far
more AP'fficient.

Missing_Minds
06-10-2011, 03:16 PM
Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

It also doesn't allow you to take Hamstring, which it should.

for that matter so should Ninja Spy, but with H elf, you've got feat and feat for a feat tree protection vs enhancement with feat issue.

Daim
06-10-2011, 03:18 PM
Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

Which is why I think keeping the costs higher makes sense, but 20 points is a significant cost. The nearest I can find in racial costs is 16 for all of dwarven toughness which gives 2 Con and 40 additional hit points. Even mitigating the cost slightly would be very welcome.

Bodic
06-10-2011, 03:29 PM
Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.
where I stand really is my Halfling Dark monk would like some guile but gets dreadfully AP starved. My rogue is ok with it, but 25% is still alot.

TheHolyDarkness
06-10-2011, 03:41 PM
My monk further approves of this thread. Its really not about keeping the halfling race viable for rogues that's the issue here.

Its about keeping it viable for monks. If you want SA on a monk, the HElf enjoys too much of an advantage right now. Its not their fault most likely however. The change needs to be made on the halfling side of things. I agree with adjusting the final cost of the halfling line so that it was 5 or 6 AP cheaper.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

Cyr
06-10-2011, 04:10 PM
Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

I too think that halfling guile/cunning could use a small reduction in cost and a lengthening of the skill tree for them. Right now it is fairly sub-optimal to roll up a halfling due to h-elf and horc largely filling both sides of the build puzzle more effectively. Sure halflings are still the best for AC, but I would hardly call that a huge benefit in the current game.

oradafu
06-10-2011, 04:19 PM
I thought that full line for the Cunning/Guile was a bit steep. As others have said, there's been a drop in AP cost for alot of other things recently, such as skills and caster's Arcane Elemental Manipulation just as the two most obvious examples.

There's a couple of different ways to reduce the Cunning/Guile AP cost.
a) Cunning 1/2/3/4 Guile 1/1/2/3 - 17 AP total
b) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/2/3/4 - 17 AP total
c) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/1/2/3 - 14 AP total
d) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/1/2/4 - 15 AP total
e) Cunning 1/1/2/4 Guile 1/1/2/3 - 15 AP total
f) Cunning 1/1/2/4 Guile 1/1/2/4 - 16 AP total
g) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/1/1/3 - 12 AP total
h) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/1/1/4 - 13 AP total
...etc

Below 12 AP might seem a bit OP to some, but I can get behind a 10 AP cost since Sneak Attack doesn't work on the undead, elementals, constructs and any future 100% fort bosses.

Requiro
06-10-2011, 05:33 PM
Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

It’s always nice to see someone from the High Council (Devs) on Suggestion forum :) Glad that I can inspire you :)

Here is some more : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=322500 (with much less balance)

But...

What I don't understand is your argument:

"(...)it locks out all of the other ones(...)"

Every choice of the race locks out all the other. This is part of game. I can’t understand why this can be some kind of downside of Half-Elf only... :confused:

Coldin
06-10-2011, 07:34 PM
Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

I'd like to see a balance pass made to all enhancements and their cost/benefit ratio. Right now we sort of have two conflicting styles. The older style where enhancements increment steadily but cost more and more AP, and the newer style where bonuses are smaller, but it's much cheaper to advance each rank.

phalaeo
06-10-2011, 07:48 PM
We already get a sucky "Favored weapon type"-- I really agree with the suggestions in this thread and I'd like to see the cost reduced. As it stands now, neither of my Halfers can afford the full line and definitely not if they want to take tiers in that other awesome Halfling thing...

(speaking of which!)

Can we also revisit the AP requirements for Halfling Heroes' Companion? I love, love, love this buff- as it stands, it's a static 5/rest and isn't affected by any gear that will give you one/two/three more uses per rest. I'd actually rather take it to five tiers:

HHC1- 1 AP
HHC2- 1 AP
HHC3- 2 AP
HHC4- 2 AP
HHC5- 2 AP (Reduce the AP required for buff progression, but shorten the duration to 45 seconds instead of a minute. The new Tier 5 will balance that and enable buff duration of 1:05. That way you can fit in the top tier of the enhancement benefits, but need to "pay" a little extra for a longer duration)


Maybe?

redspecter23
06-10-2011, 07:49 PM
I think all of the old 1/2/3/4 enhancement lines really need to be looked into. Up to tier 3 the cost isn't really horrible, but taking tier 4 is almost a sick trick to get us to waste action points in most situations. A cost re-evaluation is in order across the board.

oradafu
06-10-2011, 11:16 PM
We already get a sucky "Favored weapon type"-- I really agree with the suggestions in this thread and I'd like to see the cost reduced. As it stands now, neither of my Halfers can afford the full line and definitely not if they want to take tiers in that other awesome Halfling thing...

(speaking of which!)

Can we also revisit the AP requirements for Halfling Heroes' Companion? I love, love, love this buff- as it stands, it's a static 5/rest and isn't affected by any gear that will give you one/two/three more uses per rest. I'd actually rather take it to five tiers:

HHC1- 1 AP
HHC2- 1 AP
HHC3- 2 AP
HHC4- 2 AP
HHC5- 2 AP (Reduce the AP required for buff progression, but shorten the duration to 45 seconds instead of a minute. The new Tier 5 will balance that and enable buff duration of 1:05. That way you can fit in the top tier of the enhancement benefits, but need to "pay" a little extra for a longer duration)


Maybe?

I agree that Halfling Heroes' Companion and Halfling Thrown Weapon Attack/Damage should be reduced also. Phalaeo covered some ground on the Heroes' Companion so I'll talk about the other AP line.

Currently the Halfling Thrown Weapon Attack line costs 2/4, so for a total of 6 AP you only get a +2 attack bonus with thrown weapons. Additionally, the Halfling Thrown Weapon Damage line costs 2/4/6. so for a total of 12 AP you only get 3 extra points of damage with thrown weapons. I've found the AP cost just insanely too high for so little bonus for weapons mostly used for levers and perched archers.

sirgog
06-11-2011, 06:09 AM
I think all of the old 1/2/3/4 enhancement lines really need to be looked into. Up to tier 3 the cost isn't really horrible, but taking tier 4 is almost a sick trick to get us to waste action points in most situations. A cost re-evaluation is in order across the board.

I'm personally a fan of diminishing returns on some enhancements.

I don't like them much on straight up DPS increases that are a major part of a class's identity (or a race's identity). But for other effects such as WF Healer's Friend*, Racial/Class Toughness and the like, I'm much more of a fan of having them get less efficient the deeper you go into them.

It creates more diversity in builds. Taking WF as an example, some people prioritize HP more than others - they take Racial/Class Toughness 3 or even 4. Others prefer healing amp, and sacrifice a Toughness 4 to take tier 2 of Healer's Friend for the extra ~7.6% to overall incoming divine healing. Still other players might skip both and take a skill boost instead.

If every Toughness enhancement was equally efficient, almost everyone would either take none of them, or would take them all. With the current diminishing returns system, there's plenty of reasons to consider things in between.



* Not trying to claim that WF Healer's Friend is set up perfectly at the moment; returns diminish too much on this one as the first 2 AP give more than the next 10 AP. IMO this should be 2/2/2 or 2/1/2 or 2/2/3 rather than 2/4/6.

jkm
06-11-2011, 08:02 PM
While we are at it, can we add a halfling carrying capacity line?

Aelonwy
06-11-2011, 08:56 PM
While we are at it, can we add a halfling carrying capacity line?

OMG yes something like:

Tier 1 : (1 AP) + 5% Carrying Capacity
Tier 2 : (2 AP) + 5% Carrying Capacity
Tier 3 : (3 AP) + 5% Carrying Capacity

6AP for 15% total carrying capacity

Or if that's overcoming too much of the halfling strength/carrying penalty...

Tier 1 : (1 AP) + 1% Carrying Capacity
Tier 2 : (1 AP) + 2% Carrying Capacity
Tier 3 : (2 AP) + 3% Carrying Capacity
Tier 4 : (2 AP) + 4% Carrying Capacity

6AP for 10% total carrying capacity

mournbladereigns
06-11-2011, 09:04 PM
Only if you buff the racial weapon enhancements too (especially for Elves/Drow, they need moar love!)
But a slight reduction in cost, or additional benefits would be nice.

redspecter23
06-12-2011, 01:49 PM
I'm personally a fan of diminishing returns on some enhancements.

I don't like them much on straight up DPS increases that are a major part of a class's identity (or a race's identity). But for other effects such as WF Healer's Friend*, Racial/Class Toughness and the like, I'm much more of a fan of having them get less efficient the deeper you go into them.

It creates more diversity in builds. Taking WF as an example, some people prioritize HP more than others - they take Racial/Class Toughness 3 or even 4. Others prefer healing amp, and sacrifice a Toughness 4 to take tier 2 of Healer's Friend for the extra ~7.6% to overall incoming divine healing. Still other players might skip both and take a skill boost instead.

If every Toughness enhancement was equally efficient, almost everyone would either take none of them, or would take them all. With the current diminishing returns system, there's plenty of reasons to consider things in between.



* Not trying to claim that WF Healer's Friend is set up perfectly at the moment; returns diminish too much on this one as the first 2 AP give more than the next 10 AP. IMO this should be 2/2/2 or 2/1/2 or 2/2/3 rather than 2/4/6.

Diminishing returns as an overall theme is just fine, but certain abilities really do need a pass. The halfling line in particular is disguised as two lines of 1/2/3/4 but in actuality is more like 1 line of 2/4/6/8 if you're looking for just the damage. In some situations like the one you noted concerning healing amp, the 2/4/6 is maybe off by a bit, but some people do take it to the 3rd tier so it gets some love. If that particular line had a 4th tier costing 8 AP, I'm not sure how many people would go that far. I guess what I'm saying is that the difference in diminishing returns between a line that has 3 tiers and one that has 4 tiers seems way off to me. Halfling Cunning/Guile could be 3 tiers at 1/2/3 for +2/+3/+4 attack and +4/+6/+8 damage and it would seem much more attractive

Riggs
06-13-2011, 10:47 AM
Reduced cost lines indeed would be good.

New racial weapon - Hoopak! roar.

Chette
06-13-2011, 11:20 AM
I really like the ideas in this thread and am glad to see a dev checking it out.

The Half-Elf rogue Dily was a slap in the face to halflings everywhere. I used to have quite a few halfling builds, and almost all of them have, or will be TRing to something else.

Reduce the cost of cunning and guile, and allow a deeper investment, particularly into guile. Right now there's no reason at all to play a halfling, unless you are a rogue, and even then a max STR half orc khopesh user is probably a stronger build.

QuantumFX
06-13-2011, 04:56 PM
Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Any chance you guys might take a look at the specific (Dwarf, Elf, Drow) Racial Weapon enhancements as alternate enhancements for things like kensai? (Ex. replace the Crit Accuracy enhancements.) It’s pretty obvious that you guys took the ideas for those enhancements from the Racial Weapon Affinity feats from Races of Ebberon. It’s pathetic that all kensai, regardless of race, are shoehorned into the path of the almighty khopesh simply because the AP cost is so damn high.