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ImpishX
06-03-2011, 05:25 PM
Why do people make builds where you multi-class, and then they tell you to like "start out as a wizard, then stay wizard until level 5, then take bard for levels 6-8, then rogue for level 9, then bard for level 10-20" (Not a real build).

Seriously if you were going to do somthing like that, why not just start as wizard and go to 5, take the 1 level in rogue at 6, then go the rest of the way bard (in this example).


I'm pretty sure there's no actual point to this other than the convenience of certain abilities you get for quests at certain levels. Just wanted to confirm it.













(BONUS QUESTION)

Paladin have a hit die of something like D10 while clerics have something like D8. If i were to multiclass part cleric and part paladin, which hit die would I use?

(Bonus BONUS QUESTION)

So you'll have different starter hp/mp when making your character depending on your class... right? Well, what if i started off paladin, then went cleric later. Would I get the starter stats of a lv 1 cleric added to my overall hp/mp? This is 1 other reason of why people might do what they do in the original question above.

Zachski
06-03-2011, 05:33 PM
Don't take my word for it, but...

I'm pretty sure that you'd get a combination of hit die. That is, 10 for starting out Paladin, and then the next level in Cleric you'd gain 8, then the next level in Paladin you'd get 10 again. But I could be wrong on this.

As far as the spell points go... you'd get the level 1 Cleric SP, but you'd still just get the Cleric second level hit die.

...Mostly, it has to do with the fact that all characters gain a bonus 20 HP when first starting out, and then their hit die is added to that, I believe. So instead of a Wizard starting with 6 HP, they start with 26 HP... before con mods and toughness.

Teech
06-03-2011, 05:40 PM
The most common advice on when to take what levels is 'take rogue at 1'.
Reason is that at level 1, your skill points are quadrupled.

IE. If you are a wizard with (2 + Intelligence modifier) skill points, you get (2 + Intelligence modifier)x4=8 skill points at level 1.

Rogues get (8 + Intelligence modifier) skill points each level.

Therefore, for a wizard/rogue split (for example):
If you take wizard at level 1, you get 8 base skill points (discounting int mod).
If you take rogue at 1, you get 32 (discounting int mod).

By not taking rogue at level 1, you 'lose' 24 skill points...

For other level progressions, I guess players are usually rushing to get to 6 for PREs, or certain feats that the class gives.
Eg. For the Wiz/Rog splash, some recommend taking the 2nd Rogue level at around character level 10, as that will give you evasion (Rogue2) at the level range that it starts becoming more useful. (VON traps). By not taking Rogue too early, your character enjoys the benefits of earlier spells as well as getting your chosen PRE 1 level earlier.

That's my guess anyway.

canacorn
06-03-2011, 05:42 PM
multiclasses juggle levels for the purpose of gaining certain abilities in a timely manner as you surmised, as well as maximizing skill points. any rogue splash almost always takes rogue at one because they are allocated more skill points than any other class. a second rogue level would likely be spaced out until later in order to max out a specific skill or two. zach is correct about the hitpoints if i'm reading correctly... not sure i understand the spell point response, but it basically works the same as the hitpoints. in your example each cleric level would get spellpoints and hitpoints granted a cleric per level, and each paladin level the same. both are based in wisdom, but i'm pretty sure they have mdifferent scales. the compendium lists spell points per level in the class sections.

stockwizard5
06-03-2011, 05:44 PM
If you are asking about level progression for multi-class builds there are many reasons:

-- Skill Points Bonus/Allocations
-- Pre-Requisits for Feats, PrCs, Etc
-- Known Quest/Ability for Leveling

Example: WC going 16 Bard/2 Fighter/2 Barb has issues maxing Perform/UMD vs 12 Bard/2 Fighter/2 Barb/4 Bard could :)

ImpishX
06-03-2011, 05:45 PM
New Situation Question:


As a paladin, you get granted abilities at levels 1/2/3/4/6 and spells at 1/2/3/4

As a cleric you get granted abilities at levels 1/2 and spells at 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9



So lets say I start as a paladin and go to level 5. I would get the level 1-4 granted paladin abilties and all 4 spells.

But wait, I'm level 5. Does that mean that if i go to cleric I would not get the 1/2 granted abilities or the spell choices for levels 1-5?

OR - Are the levels required for granted abilities / spells based on your CLASS level and not your OVERALL level.




Another way to think about it:

Will the following routes lead to the same destination:

(( " Level 1 as paladin, 2 as cleric, 3 as paladin, 4 as paladin, 5 as cleric, 6 as paladin, 7 as cleric, 8 as paladin, 9-20 as cleric" ))

Or

(( " Level 1-5 as paladin, 6-20 as cleric " ))

Teech
06-03-2011, 05:53 PM
New Situation Question:


As a paladin, you get granted abilities at levels 1/2/3/4/6 and spells at 1/2/3/4

As a cleric you get granted abilities at levels 1/2 and spells at 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9



So lets say I start as a paladin and go to level 5. I would get the level 1-4 granted paladin abilties and all 4 spells.

But wait, I'm level 5. Does that mean that if i go to cleric I would not get the 1/2 granted abilities or the spell choices for levels 1-5?

OR - Are the levels required for granted abilities / spells based on your CLASS level and not your OVERALL level.




Another way to think about it:

Will the following routes lead to the same destination:

(( " Level 1 as paladin, 2 as cleric, 3 as paladin, 4 as paladin, 5 as cleric, 6 as paladin, 7 as cleric, 8 as paladin, 9-20 as cleric" ))

Or

(( " Level 1-5 as paladin, 6-20 as cleric " ))

There is a difference between character level and class level.
You get class abilities at class level X.
Add up all your class levels and you get your character level.

ImpishX
06-03-2011, 05:57 PM
There is a difference between character level and class level.
You get class abilities at class level X.
Add up all your class levels and you get your character level.

....Ya... I know that. But that doesn't answer the question.





Will the following routes lead to the same destination:

(( " Level 1 as paladin, 2 as cleric, 3 as paladin, 4 as paladin, 5 as cleric, 6 as paladin, 7 as cleric, 8 as paladin, 9-20 as cleric" ))

Or

(( " Level 1-5 as paladin, 6-20 as cleric " ))

thegreatneil
06-03-2011, 06:08 PM
Will the following routes lead to the same destination:

(( " Level 1 as paladin, 2 as cleric, 3 as paladin, 4 as paladin, 5 as cleric, 6 as paladin, 7 as cleric, 8 as paladin, 9-20 as cleric" ))

Or

(( " Level 1-5 as paladin, 6-20 as cleric " ))

Yes.

Have you tried the character builder?

It's very useful for building new characters and also answers many questions like these.

I Don't remember how to add the link, but im sure someone can.

ImpishX
06-03-2011, 06:11 PM
Yes.

Have you tried the character builder?

It's very useful for building new characters and also answers many questions like these.

I Don't remember how to add the link, but im sure someone can.


Thank You. That "Yes" has answered everything. (srsly)


So the only reason people take certain classes at certain levels is because they might not need a certain ability a class gets until a certain point, and therefore they take class levels that benefit them more at a certain level period.




(Also Ty to Teech for that rogue tip.. might consider that)

voodoogroves
06-03-2011, 06:21 PM
The trick on most of those explicit builds is not the end, it's the journey.

Yes, you get to there the fastest. Let me give you some specific examples of why this is important.

Consider you want to play a melee wizard with the full TWF / ITWF / GTWF chain.

You could take Fighter 2 then Wizard to 18. That would give you weapon proficiencies early and save some frustration in having to use Master's Touch on your melee weapon. You end up with a BAB of +11 ... 2 from fighter and 9 from Wizard (wizard gets BAB at even levels). That's great, because GTWF requires a BAB 11 ... but wait ... you don't get a feat at character level 20. In order to get GTWF you either need to have a BAB of 11 by 18 when you get your last normal feat, or take Fighter 2 at 20.

So ...


SOME EXAMPLES

First level gets x4 skill points. Rogue 1 then Wizard 19 will have more skill points than a Wizard 19 -> Rogue 1.

Wizard 7 and Sorc 8 get Wall of Fire; a huge leveling ease. Often people will take maybe one class level and then get 7 wizard or 8 sorc before taking the 2nd level of their cross class (often Monk or Rogue). Divines often wait for 6th level spells before multiclassing too much (heal, blade barrier and the first mass cures).

Evasion becomes important around Gianthold ... 12 ish. Because of this, people hold off on small dips for evasion until 10+ usually to get their core class abilities as advanced as possible before taking the other progression hit.

Your skills, though the limit of max ranks is based on all your classes, will have point allocations based on the current class in which you're leveling. For that reason, you may see people take one class later to bulk up on skill points. Some key skills (UMD, Intimidate are the most common) are relatively class-limited and often shifting of classes is to shore up those points.

Feat qualifications based on BAB (as covered above) matter for your BAB at the moment to get the feat.

Similarly, since +2 tomes come available at 7, sometimes people put off class levels that grant feats or important skills to maximize their capabilities to take those feats and skills.

Often you'll see people take a skill-heavy class early (Rogue) to get the skill point boost, but sometimes it's a tough tradeoff. Casters who are feat-starved (ie, not wizards) may actually shift that first non-casting level until later so they can grab important metamagics first (since it requires a casting class).

Generally, THF is better until you start really stacking on the TWF feats. For that reason someone who wants to splash ranger (say ranger 6 in a monk 2 / ranger 6 / fighter 12 build) will try to take the ranger levels early to get in those TWF feats.



So ... will a Paladin 5 / Cleric 15 end up in the same spot? At a high level, sure.

At 10 though, will you be a Paladin 5 / Cleric 5 or a Paladin 2 / Cleric 8? At 14 are you going to be a Paladin 2 / Cleric 12 (and thus Radiant Servant 2 with the bust and aura) or a Paladin 5 / Cleric 9?

Do you want to efficiently maximize intimidate? If so, you're probably pushing some Paladin levels late, probably taking one at 20 because you'll get more mileage out of your skill points, etc.




Here's a real-life example for one of my toons ... Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 16. I'd love to maximize skill points and take monk first, but I want to play with the following feats

Monk Bonus: Toughness, Power Attack
Normal: Extend, Empower, Maximize, Quicken, PL Sorcerer, Shield Mastery, Improved Crit

1: Paladin: Shield Mastery ... This gives me martial weapons and shield proficiency and makes Korthos/Harbor a bit less troublesome since it's a STR build.
2-9: Sorcerer 1-8
10-11: Monk 1-2
12: Paladin 2 ... so now I have evasion and great saves plus I catch up as much as I can in intimidate

Does that make sense?

voodoogroves
06-03-2011, 06:26 PM
Thank You. That "Yes" has answered everything. (srsly)


So the only reason people take certain classes at certain levels is because they might not need a certain ability a class gets until a certain point, and therefore they take class levels that benefit them more at a certain level period.

Not to drag you deeper into the rabbit hole, but in your specific example that may be true (Paladin and Cleric) but take a gander at the examples I listed above.

(1) Even if it gets to the same end point, the mid levels will play very differently.

(2) It doesn't actually get to the end point in all cases - but Cleric 15 / Paladin 5 is probably a bad benchmark to use.

jwdaniels
06-03-2011, 06:39 PM
Character level = the sum of all class levels

Class level = the number of levels you have in a specific class

Therefore, if you get an ability at a particular class level, you will get that ability no matter what character level you take that class level. For example, fighters get a bonus feat at level 1. If you take fighter level 1 as your first character level, your 12th character level, or your 20th character level you still get that bonus feat at that time.

For a more concrete example, if you're going to build a character that is an 18 wizard/2 rogue multiclass you would take 1 level of rogue first (for reasons explained above) and then take wizard levels 1 - 7 so that you get firewall as soon as possible. At this point, you're an 8th level character with a 7 wizard/ 1 rogue split. Your 9th character level will most likely be rogue, because that will give you evasion (which a rogue gets at the 2nd class level) and then you would take your final 11 levels all in wizard.

Bodic
06-03-2011, 07:19 PM
OP
What you should take from this multi-classing
is an art form to create practical snergy of class combination.

You might take sometime and figure out the road you want to take to get to your destination. Just Jumping in the car and driving aimlessly can be fun, but ultimately you waste fuel in a high cost economy.

and
/respect you ask for advice dont complain about what you get. If you didnt understand say so and it can be explained better.

Esserbe
06-03-2011, 10:09 PM
New Situation Question:


As a paladin, you get granted abilities at levels 1/2/3/4/6 and spells at 1/2/3/4

As a cleric you get granted abilities at levels 1/2 and spells at 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9


Paladins get their first level spells at level 4 and their first fourth level spell at level 14.

Clerics are granted a new spell level every second level (so 3, 5, 7 etc).

Paladin/Cleric is not a very good combo, especially not with 15/5 split.

countfitz
06-03-2011, 10:17 PM
When rogue levels are involved, its about maximizing your skill points at level 1, then balancing them out at the best level (depending on intelligence, human bonus, and what class) so usually 10-12. Sometimes it's about prereqs (rarely) like the bonus feats you'd need, taking fighter (usually) to get feats before a certain level. Sometimes its qualifying for feats at level 1 (spellcasters can take feats that require spell points, fighters can take feats that require BAB 1). And sometimes it's like you said, the character plays better that way.

Rawel_San
06-04-2011, 02:38 AM
Thank You. That "Yes" has answered everything. (srsly)


So the only reason people take certain classes at certain levels is because they might not need a certain ability a class gets until a certain point, and therefore they take class levels that benefit them more at a certain level period.




(Also Ty to Teech for that rogue tip.. might consider that)

Unfortunately as voodoogrooves pointed out in his post eventhough it might not be quite obvious
the answer is not Yes. It's maybe.

It depends on what feats you want to take and what skills you want to max.
For a paladin5/cleric 15 it would most probably be very hard to come up with a feat setup that could be gotten
one way and not the other there is a very good chance you would be able to come up with a skill set up that
could be gotten one way and not the other though.

In general due to both feat prerequisites (BaB being one of the more usual ones) and levels of classes that
get cross class vs. class skills changing the order you take classes can change the achievable end result.
For example paladin has intimidate as a class skill while cleric has it as cross class. That means every level you
take as cleric you pay 2 skill points per rank of intimidate.

Suppose you have 8 base int (probbable for this level split) and want to max intimidate. If you front load the
paladin (i.e. go 1-5 pallie 5-20 cleric) you use your one skill point per level in level 1-5 to get intimi to 8 (4 skill
points at lvl 1) but after that for lvl 6 and 7 you only get one skill point per level and your intimi lags behind
to 9 at lvl 7. At this point you eat a +2 int tome so you get 2 skill points per level and from there to lvl 20
you put both points into intimidate getting you to 22 ranks at lvl 20 thus leaving you one point short of full
ranks.

If you take pallie for lvl 1-2 though and get intim to 5 then by lvl 7 you will have intim 7.5 at which point you eat
a +2 tome take pallie levels 8 and 9 putting both skill points into intim to get you to 11.5 intim at 9 then at
10 you take cleric put one skill point into intim to get it to 12 and get one skill point for say concentration then
lvl 11 you take pallie again putting both points into intim to get it to 14 which is max and lvls 12-20 you go
cleric putting all points into intimidate to keep it maxed and end up with 23 ranks.

Thus 1-5 pallie 6-20 cleric gives you 22 ranks in intim whereas 1-2 pallie 3-7 cleric 8-9 pallie 10 cleric, 11 pallie
and 12-20 cleric gives you 23 ranks of intim and one more rank in concentration for example.

This might not look like a great difference but since many builds will spend tons of gear/energy on one skill point
it's very important.

With more complicated multiclasses that make non trivial feat choices this can become a lot more tricky.
Especially when fighter or any other class with bonus feats is involved since those might need to be filled with the proper feat
and if you are not high enough level you might not meet the prerequisites.

Taking the monk level on an exploiter at 14 rather then say 6 saves you about 7 skill points that is a huge difference.

svinja
06-04-2011, 05:57 PM
So the only reason people take certain classes at certain levels is because they might not need a certain ability a class gets until a certain point, and therefore they take class levels that benefit them more at a certain level period.

No.

Sometimes, a certain levelling order will make a build impossible. With a human 5 paladin / 15 cleric, if you wanted to pick up toughness, power attack, improved critical: slashing, quicken, extend, maximize, empower and empower healing, you can't go 1-5 paladin 6-20 cleric. As this is a simple case, you will spot the mistake at level 3, take cleric instead of paladin, and you'll be fine. With more complex builds, you may not spot the mistake until many levels later, when it's too late.

There are:
- feats that have stat requirements you may not meet at lower levels, but will meet at higher levels
- feats that have BAB requirements
- feats that require certain other feats which are granted for free at some level of a class
- feats that can only be taken if you have at least some number of levels in a certain class
- feat slots that are granted at certain character level, regardless of class
- feat slots that are granted at certain class level, regardless of character level, and can only be used for some feats, many of which have one of the limitations mentioned above


The interaction between all these limitations can make it difficult to weave in all the feats you want into the build and will often force restrictions on both your levelling order and feat selection order, even if the only thing you care about is the end result at 20. In addition to that, levelling order can also be important for maximizing your ranks in important skills, and sometimes this can't be taken care of by just picking up the class with the most skill points (rogue in any rogue build) at level 1, sometimes this may even be impossible because it is in conflict with the feat selection problems described above.

MartinusWyllt
06-04-2011, 06:29 PM
I still suggest you at least run a toon up to level 12 so you get a feel for how your power level progresses and what the challenges are. Run you cleric up and just experience the game past your self-disclosed level 3 max.

If, at around level 11 or 12 as a cleric you see a point to a steep paladin multiclass then go for it from there.

If, instead, you get that cleric up to 16 or 17, flag for the shroud and run that every 3 days you'll have a nice source of platinum to fund your experimental builds....besides you can use this character to go ahead and get the favor for 32 pt builds and veteran status (assuming you don't already have those) making your build experiments even easier as you can skip the annoying lvl 1-3.

zex95966
06-04-2011, 09:31 PM
lots and lots of times it you won't meet certain requirements until later.
like BAB requirements... level requirements... etc.
Perhaps your doing tempest, and need those feats for dodge/mobility/spring attack.
There are many reasons.

for example my favorite build, goes 2 fighter, 2 ranger, 3 fighter, 1 rogue, 4 ranger, 1 fighter, 1 rogue, the rest fighter
Crazy/***?! I know.

Thing is... I'm only splashing rogue for UMD exclusively. when doing it for that reason alone, it is more beneficial to splash rogue later, because at first level you can only bump it 4 points.

I take 2 fighter 2 ranger early, so that I can get twf, a bunch of feats out of the way, as well as the str enhancement for fighter so that I end up with an odd number at lvl 4 (and I have vet status.)

I eat a +2 tome, and get more skill points to put into umd, and take rogue.

Again I could take another rogue for evasion at this point... but I don't care about that as much as umd, which I can't put all my skill points into if I do it now. so I save it for later.
I could take fighter and get kensai... but I don't need it, and certain feats I want I can't get till later. so I delay it and take ranger, getting more twf feats out of the way until I get tempest.

Once I get tempest, it's only a feat and a level of fighter to kensai, so I do that. then it's only another level for evasion+ I can now dump into UMD again... So I do that. at level 12, I'm basically just a tempest with lots of feats. at 13 I get kensai, then at 14 rogue. making me quite happy once I reach those levels.

also at 12, I notice I start getting kinda bored... so I did this also because It will make me want to hit these levels much more.

but yeah, feat-wise I can't take fighter that high if I want to spend one of those class feats on more useful things... like GTWF unless I take some ranger for the free feats there first. rogue is for UMD and I get to pump it earlier and get the most out of it by waiting a bit.

so yeah...