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Bowser_Koopa
06-02-2011, 01:19 PM
If you want to read just the idea I had for this skip to near the bottom or read below for fun Koopa inspired rationalization then my idea.

So there I was hanging out at Bowser Castle in the EDR and I had a conversation with DoktorKoopa one of our healing type koopa's. During the conversation I asked him why he wasn't a cleric and his first response was FVS gives you wiiiings. Well that seemed like a good answer but then he told me that really there wasn't any reason to be a Cleric, favored souls had more spell points higher dc's and there really wasn't any spells he couldn't have as a favored soul he had as a cleric. This all seemed intriguing and then he made his final point. Besides clerics don't have their domains anyways that could maybe bring them up to par if they did and had some enhancements geared towards them.

So after this conversation I realized my army had a ton of clerics and now I knew they were subpar I had to get this fixed so I went to talk to some of my minions for ideas. First I talked to Magikoopa and he really said he couldn't help, then I talked to Hammerkoopa and he didn't have any ideas either, then I spoke with the leader of the 201st Koopa Troopa division aptly named Koopa Troopa (what you really thought the minions had names?) He mentioned that his legion was full of Monks and he liked his division because he had some troops that could fight and provide their other troops buffs and minor healing, and others that were more offensively based, he said that some of them were light path and some of them were dark path and early in they're training they could choose to be one or the other.

This seemed like a great idea why couldn't my clerics after leveling up a bit and becoming more in tune with their divine power the great koopa in the sky provides them select a domain and then get either spell like abilities and/or enhancements that let them be different from their fellow clerics. So this was my plan and now I'm trying to make it ok with the great creator in the sky.

So after that story (or if you skipped it) what I'm saying is Monk's are interesting you can be light or dark and get enhancements and such based on this. Why not do this for cleric domains or copy the Sorc Pre's and make a pre for each domain and have it unlock a corresponding elemental/energy enhancement line? This idea has probably come up before but I think some new discussion may just catch a dev's attention (Eladrin hint hint) and get the ball rolling on this long overdue ability.

coolpenguin410
06-02-2011, 02:13 PM
I'd rather have them implement it as bonus spells. Either a series of 1x day SLA's with 0 SP cost or a list of spells the cleric wouldn't normally have access to that would cast like regular spells.

Rakian_Knight
06-02-2011, 07:45 PM
It really depends on how much of Domains they try biting off at once. There are twenty-two basic domains and with all the expansions that number has more then doubled. However, if they do ever do domains, I'd imagine them doing them kind of like the ranger's favored enemy (at level 1 choose one or two domains from the list of "bonus" feats) then having the domain spells either become like the cure spells every level or having archmage-like enhancements for cheap or free spell like abilities. If they go with only a single domain, I'd see them leaning towards the auto-prepped spells however if they go with the pnp two, they would either have to have the domain spells go under a separate list of spells and have to choose between the two spell (like in pnp) or go with the archmage-like enhancements.

If domains would ever be added (big question this far into the game) I guess they would only add a few adding a couple every once and a while. I'd imagine they would start with: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Law, Good, Chaos, Evil(?). They would then start adding the others in slowly like they are trying to do with PrE now eventually adding, Animal, Death, Destruction, Healing, Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Plant, Protection, Strength, Sun, Travel, Trickery, and War if they add all the pnp domains.

Example with Air:
Air Domain (Domain Feat)
Granted Power: Turn earth elementals as a good cleric turns undead and rebuke (charm) air elementals as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Either ability uses a use of your turn undead ability.

Air free spells (automatically prepped like the cure spells or having to choose between one domain spell or the other)
1st: Obscuring Mist
2nd: Gust of Wind
3rd: Lighting Bolt
4th: Solid Fog
5th: Cyclonic Blast
6th: Chain Lighting
7th: Summon Monster VII (Djinni only)
8th: Summon Monster VIII (Air Elemental Only)
9th: Summon Air Elemental (Summon CR 16 Air Elemental doesn't count as your summoned creature)

Air Spell-like abilities (Enhancements, Cost 1 ap each)
1st: Obscuring Mist (Available Level 1)
2nd: Gust of Wind (Available Level 4; 12 ap spent)
3rd: Lighting Bolt (Available Level 8; 24 ap spent)
4th: Cyclonic Blast (Available Level 12; 44 ap spent)
5th: Summon Air Elemental (Available Level 16; 62 ap spent)

Anyway these ideas are based from the pnp counterparts and trying to work with what's in the game as it is now. Sorry this is a longer post but in short I do think that they do need to add domains as the special touch to give cleric and favored souls their own (forgive the pun) domains where they are clearly different other then just the swapping spells and turn undead.

sweez
06-02-2011, 08:10 PM
favored souls had ... higher dc's

Question mark

sephiroth1084
06-02-2011, 08:19 PM
I'd imagine that most players would be happy with domains simply granting a few bonuses and maybe opening up some enhancements tied to specific domains.

Having domains grant access to a few spells not normally found on the cleric's list as either spells they can prepare or as SLAs with limited uses per rest would win the rest of the cleric populace over.

Rakian_Knight
06-02-2011, 08:42 PM
I'd imagine that most players would be happy with domains simply granting a few bonuses and maybe opening up some enhancements tied to specific domains.

Having domains grant access to a few spells not normally found on the cleric's list as either spells they can prepare or as SLAs with limited uses per rest would win the rest of the cleric populace over.

Say this and making cleric A, different then cleric B, kind of like how the casters use to be divided by the fire/ice and acid/electric and now are divided by the preferred element or school of magic. Clerics don't have that much difference between them at the moment other then being called a caster cleric or a battle cleric.

Aesop
06-02-2011, 08:51 PM
I've done a few write ups for domains over the last 6 years or so.

More along the lines of what Seph mentioned.

I'm hoping for something along those lines

Aesop

sephiroth1084
06-02-2011, 09:15 PM
Say this and making cleric A, different then cleric B, kind of like how the casters use to be divided by the fire/ice and acid/electric and now are divided by the preferred element or school of magic. Clerics don't have that much difference between them at the moment other then being called a caster cleric or a battle cleric.
That is a big difference actually, but I agree that they could use a little more differentiation. Still, 3.5 domains don't do that much: one fairly minor ability at level 1 and a few more spells... Pathfinder, at least, has expanded on domains a bit to make a cleric that follows one domain feel a bit different from one that follows another.

I'd also like to see sorcerer bloodlines and wizard specializations make their way into DDO, though I don't expect that that will happens for years and years, as prestige enhancements and other similar features are likely ranked well above things such as these.

I've done a few write ups for domains over the last 6 years or so.

More along the lines of what Seph mentioned.

I'm hoping for something along those lines

Aesop
Yeah, you've been a constant and stalwart source of good ideas, Aesop.

Matuse
06-02-2011, 10:03 PM
Seems like it would be pretty straightforward to me. Make the domains a level 1 class feat that you select, like how FvS pick their deity. You get the initial domains, and then at level X, Y, and Z, you automatically get the upgraded version which includes knowledge of another domain spell.

Bowser_Koopa
06-03-2011, 09:53 AM
Maybe I was wrong saying that Fvs have higher DC's than Clr's but the real point of all this was that I am an advocate of the ability to have variety and I think regardless of the 'how' domains get added they could be a way to inject more variety into the game and also give Clr's a little extra oomph. I still believe one of the best things about this game is that often times everyone you group with is different than your character and I believe an even stronger effort should be made towards this beyond Pre's with more feats and enhancements.

macubrae
06-03-2011, 02:58 PM
Maybe I was wrong saying that Fvs have higher DC's than Clr's but the real point of all this was that I am an advocate of the ability to have variety and I think regardless of the 'how' domains get added they could be a way to inject more variety into the game and also give Clr's a little extra oomph. I still believe one of the best things about this game is that often times everyone you group with is different than your character and I believe an even stronger effort should be made towards this beyond Pre's with more feats and enhancements.

I agree 100% that variety is good. But some people will tell you a toon is gimped if you took a wrong feat. I make my toons to have character, mainly because I did played pnp for over 25yrs. I like my toons and none of my dozen are following any certain build.

One problem does arise. If one domain has anything better then any other one, no one is going to play that one domain because the other one is better. Then the dev's have to balance them out, nerfing one or building up the other(probably nerfing the one). And by balancing the domains, they make it to where it doesn't much matter which one you pick besides the healing one, the fighting one, or the casting one. Players can do that now, what difference is a couple free spells going to make?

I just want to clarify... I am not a Cleric Hater.

doubledge
06-03-2011, 04:00 PM
i don't even think it's dead any more.....
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2009/73972-undead_horse_post.jpg

Rakian_Knight
06-03-2011, 05:23 PM
I agree 100% that variety is good. But some people will tell you a toon is gimped if you took a wrong feat. I make my toons to have character, mainly because I did played pnp for over 25yrs. I like my toons and none of my dozen are following any certain build.

One problem does arise. If one domain has anything better then any other one, no one is going to play that one domain because the other one is better. Then the dev's have to balance them out, nerfing one or building up the other(probably nerfing the one). And by balancing the domains, they make it to where it doesn't much matter which one you pick besides the healing one, the fighting one, or the casting one. Players can do that now, what difference is a couple free spells going to make?

I just want to clarify... I am not a Cleric Hater.

I agree with you on building "Characters" over "Toons" however, have to disagree with the power problem when it comes to domains. Domains were always character or situational based so I doubt everyone is going to flood to just one because of that. Also you have to look at what type of character the player wants to make?

Healbots will go for Healing and Protection.
Melee DPS clerics will go more towards War and Strength.
Caster clerics will go more towards their elemental focus(es) and something else.
Undead Specialist will go more towards Sun and something else.
Etc. Etc. Etc.

To where a couple might become more popular because you see more undead then plants for example I don't think you will see anyone becoming "gimped" because of choosing a rarely used domain. Look at the Paladin PrE's for example of this, Hunter of the Dead and Knight of Chalice. Which one is more popular now that demons and devils are everywhere? However, ask anyone who plays Hunter of the Dead do they feel gimped because they focused on undead over evil outsiders and they will usually say no as they run off to stop the Abbot's raise to god-hood again. Its just a matter of preference.

donfilibuster
06-03-2011, 06:15 PM
Dead horse keeps spawning at the tavern, to the confusion of drunk customers.

Cleric domains may take some coding but is worth and useful and flavor and a lot of other good things.
Just like clerics have cure spells pre-memorized you'd have a second fixed spell on each level.
The granted power would be an active ability to use from the toolbar, depending on the domain.

Cleric domains are one strong feature of clerics in PnP, shouldn't be given a second tought, it is worth the dev time.
For DDO the domains can be taken as a class feat or made into enhancements, either is good.

Siro
09-23-2011, 04:27 PM
I've wanted domains since beta. :(

Please work on this devs.

Make them class feats at level one (we get two, remember?). In order to deal with domains that grant one ability based on either alignment (good/evil) or a choice (neutral), have each domain feat (as needed) open a corresponding enhancement line that only allows a user to select one ability (like human adaptability except at no AP cost) in addition to granting the required spell list. For example, the healing domain either grants turn undead (chaotic good, lawful good, neutral good), rebuke undead (chaotic evil, lawful evil, neutral evil) or a choice of either (chaotic neutral, lawful neutral, true neutral). Implement as many domains you can without having to add a dramatic number of spells to the game. They could be done fairly piecemeal once you have the healing domain fixed and the mechanics for picking which bonus spells from each domain you want to use set up.

To deal with the fact that basically nobody has domains now (locking in cure spells was a very poor choice for expedience btw), give all the clerics the healing domain and whichever other domain. Then give the clerics a couple level appropriate siberys dragonshards so that they can change which domains they have.

Domains that should be easy to implement:
Healing: Only needs slight adjustment and the addition of the MUCH needed Regenerate spell for dealing with crippled/limb-chopped status.
Destruction: Add shatter and Earthquake spells.
Good: Only needs Holy Word
War: Needs Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, and Magic Vestment, but the mechanics for these already exist in other buff/summon spells.
Chaos: Would be under 'problematic domains' except that it basically just needs stuff already from the 'easy' list. Such as shatter, anti-law versions of existing spells, Animate objects (like spiritual weapon except summon random piece of furniture instead of deity favored weapon), Word of Chaos (chaos version of holy word). Also needs cloak of chaos, but all those benefits are found in lesser versions or other spells.
Death: Sooo easy. Just needs death knell and lesser and greater versions of Create Undead (animate dead and create greater undead).
Evil: Similar to Chaos domain, most of these spells already exist as the good variants.
Law: Same basic deal as Evil and Chaos.
Protection: Should be doable given existing mechanics and the above.
Strength: Enlarge person and Righteous might are basically already in (looking at you npc dwarves :P). Grasping hand spells could be done as a summon.
Sun: Endure elements could be done as a lesser resist energy. Heat metal could be a damage over time. Fire seeds would be similar to that 'chuck lightning' spell they have. Sunbeam could a better Searing Light+Blind.
Decay: Fairly easy, copies many things already in Death domain or available to pale masters.
Dragon Below: Planar ally is just another summon, Blasphemy is just the evil version of Holy word, Gate is another summon or airship portal :P
Necromancer: Should be easy aside from introducing a few more spells based on existing mechanics (eyebite, vampiric touch).
Passion: Song of discord is just a charm, Hideous Laughter is just a slow.
Shadow: Granted power could just be a lesser true seeing (or just implement blind-fight). Darkness and Deeper darkness are just fog spells basically. Shadow conjuration/evocation could be selector spells that add a will save to existing spells.


Problematic domains:
Air: Needs a better granted power. Gaseous form could be implemented as a variant on displacement. Air Walk, Control Winds & Control Weather would need replacement with something else. Whirlwind wouldn't be too difficult to implement similar to an air elemental version of those fire thingies that artificers get. Elemental swarm is impossible until DDO can handle multiple summons at once and AI coding is improved.
Animal: Calm animals could be a daze, Summon Nature's ally is just summon monster with a different list, Commune with Nature needs replacement, and Animal Shapes and Shapechange will have to wait until work on druids is completed.
Earth: Magic stone similar to conjure arrow or bolt, Soften earth and stone needs rethinking for DDO, Stone Shape needs replacement, Spike Stones could be a variant on that silly bush spell rangers get, Wall of Stone needs replacement or rethinking for DDO, and again Elemental swarm presents problems.
Fire: Would be easy if not for elemental swarm.
Knowledge: Granted power has no purpose in DDO. Detect Thoughts, Clairaudience, Divination, Finding the Path, Legend Lore and Discern Location wouldn't have much purpose in DDO, so the domain would need major reworking.
Luck: Granted power needs reworking to function within DDO. Entropic shield should be easy to implement. Mislead is just a really good self invis plus a summon that looks like you. Spell turning could function like the mantle of the worldshaper. Moment of Prescience could be implemented by granting a temporary feat when cast that provides an an action boost for one of the three effects. Miracle could function like any of the selector spells (resist energy, protection from energy, contagion, etc) with whatever options devs feel appropriate ;)
Magic: Magic aura and Identify need replacement. Imbue with spell ability could grant a someone a temporary feat that lets them cast the spell as a 0-sp SLA. Antimagic should be doable as a radius version of what beholders have.
Plant: Suspect this would be easier once Druids get their spells done up. But otherwise plant growth needs replacement or reworking as a plant-summon buff. Repel wood would involve a lot of inventory/body feat checks. Animate plants and Shambler could be done as summons.
Travel: Locate Object, Fly, Find the Path, Phase Door & Astral Projection need replacement.
Trickery: Disguise Self, Nondetection, False Vision & Screen need replacement. Polymorph any object needs to wait on druids. Time Stop could be done by instantly recycling cooldowns for any non-offensive spell for the duration plus greater invis and end the spell early if spells cast on anyone else.
Water: Control water would need replacement and again elemental swarm.
Artifice: Almost every spell would need reworking or replacement. Hardening would make the adamantine ritual obsolete. True creation would make deconstructing items for the purpose of crafting bonuses onto them obsolete.
Commerce: Granted power has no purpose in DDO. Comprehend languages, Zone of Truth, Tongues, Refuge, and Analyze Dweomer need replacement. Polymorph any object needs to wait on druids.
Deathless: relies on a mob type that doesn't exist yet.
Exorcism: Granted power relies on mob ability that doesn't exist yet. Freedom needs replacement or reworking.
Feast: Goodberry could conjure heal light berries, delay poison would be somewhat pointless so it needs replacement or reworking, Create food & Water could conjure tavern food/drink, Secure shelter could be reworked as a repulsion-like area effect that ends once it has absorbed a given amount of damage from anyone attempting to cast through it or attacking it. Magnificent mansion could function like secure shelter plus an ethereal rest/rez shrine. Detoxify is just a mass neutralize poison. Feast of Champions is a better Hero's Feast.
Life: similar problems as Plant domain. Hide from undead would just be an invis to undead only, Disrupting weapon should be easy given artificer spells that add boosts.
Meditation: Comprehend languages, locate object, tongues, finding the path, astral projection need replacement.
Weather: Call lightning/lightning storm is already in as a cookie, storm of vengeance could be done similarly. Control winds and control weather need replacement.

Aesop
09-23-2011, 05:45 PM
I don't think they need to have every spell listed from a domain to make a domain a useful thing. Just a few spells and access to certain enhancements would make the various Domains a fun addition to the Clerics


Air Domain
Special: May use turn attempts to Charm an Air Elemental or Frighten an earth Elemental.

Spells: Gust of Wind(2), Cyclonic Blast(5), Control Weather(8)

Enhancements:
(4 tiers) increase damage from air and lightning effects by x% each tier,
(4 tiers) Increase critical range of air and lightning effects by y,
(4 tiers) increase critical multiplier of air and lightning effects by z.


this one is straight forward but the general idea is there. Some may have more or less enhancements

Aesop

Grenada
09-23-2011, 05:53 PM
Long as we get death and destruction domains (and water if they grant level 9 spells)

Brennie
09-23-2011, 05:56 PM
I don't think they need to have every spell listed from a domain to make a domain a useful thing. Just a few spells and access to certain enhancements would make the various Domains a fun addition to the Clerics


Air Domain
Special: May use turn attempts to Charm an Air Elemental or Frighten an earth Elemental.

Spells: Gust of Wind(2), Cyclonic Blast(5), Control Weather(8)

Enhancements:
(4 tiers) increase damage from air and lightning effects by x% each tier,
(4 tiers) Increase critical range of air and lightning effects by y,
(4 tiers) increase critical multiplier of air and lightning effects by z.


this one is straight forward but the general idea is there. Some may have more or less enhancements

Aesop

This is, IIRC, how Neverwinter Nights did it, minus enhancements of course. I totally approve of this. Gives a little power boost, a nice bonus ability, and some spells that you wouldn't normally have access to (Though that poses a probelm for domains that replicate the Cleric list - Unless Domain spells were added similarly to Spontanious cast spells?)

My only suggestions to this are 1) If you're gonna give a domain with electric enhancements, might as well toss them an actual electric spell :D, and 2) Stun or Dominate Air Outsiders (Mephits too, darnnit!) (Similar to Wild Empathy/Improved Wild Empathy) and Turn or Destroy Earth Outsiders (As per turning undead). Use the same criteria as Turning Undead to determine whether a creature is turned/stunned or dominated/destroyed.

Aesop
09-23-2011, 06:02 PM
This is, IIRC, how Neverwinter Nights did it, minus enhancements of course. I totally approve of this. Gives a little power boost, a nice bonus ability, and some spells that you wouldn't normally have access to (Though that poses a probelm for domains that replicate the Cleric list - Unless Domain spells were added similarly to Spontanious cast spells?)

My only suggestions to this are 1) If you're gonna give a domain with electric enhancements, might as well toss them an actual electric spell :D, and 2) Stun or Dominate Air Outsiders (Mephits too, darnnit!) (Similar to Wild Empathy/Improved Wild Empathy) and Turn or Destroy Earth Outsiders (As per turning undead). Use the same criteria as Turning Undead to determine whether a creature is turned/stunned or dominated/destroyed.

Well they could make Domain Spells that match Cleric Spells cost less SP... so for the Healing Domain perhaps they could decrease spell costs by 10% or something near that.

As for the Electric spell I figured they would add either Lighting Bolt Call Lightning Storm or maybe have Control Weather drop Lighting Bolts from the sky as well ;)

Aesop

twix
09-23-2011, 06:08 PM
/signed ..i cant imagine them implementing all the domains but maybe 5 or 6 would be great in some way shape or form..

Grenada
09-23-2011, 06:10 PM
... or maybe have Control Weather drop Lighting Bolts from the sky as well ;)

Aesop

Yes. Please. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html)

Wendolyn
09-27-2011, 06:56 AM
/signed

Siro
09-29-2011, 10:24 AM
C'mon Devs, can we at least finish the class?