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nicolaos
05-31-2011, 07:16 PM
Who would win in DPS (with even ish gear)?

Who would have more fun?

What are best class \ race combinations in your opinion?

ProdigalGuru
05-31-2011, 07:28 PM
Gimpfight!!!

Logic
05-31-2011, 07:30 PM
Neither does any dps as the arcane will kill the mob before the 1st arrow or bolt tracks properly!

xberto
05-31-2011, 07:38 PM
The dynamics of playing an AA, utilizing melee and ranged capabilities, make the AA way more fun to play. I suspect the DPS is greater too. The mechanic is a true pew pew pew'er.

WarDestroyer
05-31-2011, 07:39 PM
DPS, archer;
Fun, prob repeater if you're a roleplayer, prob archer if you're a GIMPOVERPOWERUBERGAMER
Mechanic pure rogue *insert random race here*, archer pure ranger or kensai elf

nicolaos
05-31-2011, 07:41 PM
Neither does any dps as the arcane will kill the mob before the 1st arrow or bolt tracks properly!


What do you mean by "tracks properly"?

Failedlegend
07-31-2011, 08:39 AM
What do you mean by "tracks properly"?

Not sure about arrows but until the fix coming in U11 repeaters have issues with getting all three shots off per volley.

Anyways back on topic...I Vote BOTH!!!!




Elven Kensai2/Mech1/AA

Mech 1 for Int bonus to Repeater damage (and some decent SA) Kensai 2 for favored weapon repeater (since you'll be using your repeater most of the time) and power surge for bows while manyshotting (of course other stuff like titan's grip, rage,etc. will help here) than 1 wizard+elf for AA

This build will primarily use repeaters but switch to bow when manyshot is available while simultaneously activating power surge & your strongest Imbue from AA

The superior rate of fire of RXBows helps to offset the decreased speed of the bow while off manyshot and the triple shot (soon to be a triple hit burst) really helps to get those status effects out. My GS picks would be a Lit2 Bow and a Rad2 RXBow.

Note: Build requires +2 Int tome before lvl 8 for skills to work and a +1 Dex tome lvl 14...both of which are easy to obtain by those levels.


Elven 12Fighter/7Rogue/1Wizard (Kensai2/AA/Mech1)


Level Order:

Rogue 1-7, Wizard 8, Fighter 9-20


Stats (assuming 32pt w/ Basic, Easy to obtain boosts):

Str 14+6(Item) +1(Tome) +3(Fighter) +8(Power Surge) = 32
Dex 18+6(Item) +2(Tome) +2(Elf) +2(Rogue) +2 = 30
Con 12+6(Item) +2(Tome) = 20
Int 16+6(Item) +1(Tome) +5(Lvls) = 28

Feats

With the fighter feats the regular feats and the wiz feat you end up with 15 feats.

1 PBS
3 WF: Ranged
6 Precise Shot
8 Mental Toughness
9 Rapid Shot, Manyshot
10 Rapid Reload
12 WS:Ranged, Bow Strength
14 IPS
15 IC:Ranged
16 GWF: Ranged
18 Quick Draw, Toughness
20 GWS: Ranged

Note: Quickdraw. Rapid Reload & Toughness can be swapped around based on you personal preference.

Skills:
Fighter/Wizard Levels: UMD,Disable Device, Search
Rogue Lvls: UMD, Disable Device, Search, OL, Spot,& w/e

Note: Any leftover points from tomes/leveling put in Spot

This is how I have my hotbar set since quivers are bugged and you cant use the hotbar to swap em


Xbow - Main Bolt Stack - Secondary Bolt Stack - A few other less used xbows/bolts

Bow- Main Arrow Stack- Power Surge - Manyshot - Secondary - Imbue Arrow

Skill Prog/Enhancements



Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)


Level 2 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 4 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 16 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Kensei Repeating Light Crossbow Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Repeating Light Crossbow Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Longbow Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Repeating Light Crossbow Specialization I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Rogue Mechanic I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock I
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Note: I recommend against starting a ranged toon in the near future as people should wait for U11 alot of changes are coming including the ranged pass, the much awaited repeater fix, Mech 3, DWS2 and even a new class so it's best to wait until that bomb is dropped because it will probably change the way we build ranged toons...hopefully for the better.

Jaid314
07-31-2011, 10:30 PM
within range, i'm pretty sure the mechanic is better DPS over time, while the arcane archer has better burst damage during manyshot.

iirc, the mechanic gets nearly double the number of shots normally, and gets to add as much as 14d6+28 (depending on race, "only" 14d6+20 if not halfling) to each of those shots.

of course, this presumes your repeater actually works properly.... good luck with that.

obviously, if you're thinking in terms best damage when shooting all the way across the map, you want arcane archer.

Failedlegend
07-31-2011, 10:55 PM
within range, i'm pretty sure the mechanic is better DPS over time, while the arcane archer has better burst damage during manyshot.


Use BOTH and your laughing :P



iirc, the mechanic gets nearly double the number of shots normally


Here's the relative comparison between the two. That Bunker put together

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~jenic001/xbows_ftw.PNG

Doganpc
08-01-2011, 11:39 AM
Given all things being equal (and working as intended)... I think the Heavy Repeater out shoots the Long Bow.

Heavy Repeater
1d10 19-20x2
Light Repeater
1d8 19-20x2

Long Bow
1d8 20x3

However I think Arcane Archer is more fun to play. Lots of potential while leveling there with imbued arrows. Whereas the Repeater just has bolts, whatever bolts you can find and/or buy. Then there is also the secondary abilities, where a strong AA isn't gimped at melee (you took bow strength right?) from levels of a weaker BAB class. Finally, There are 3 epic Longbows to 1 epic Repeater and that repeater specializes in fire damage which is great for the current end game environment! :p

So since all things are not equal, in DDO the edge goes to Long Bow Arcane Archer. Don't dismiss the repeater though cause when your AA's Manyshot is on Timer them Repeater is killing things. Sort of like a Burst vs DoT mechanic.

Dogan
This is wher I need a screenshot of 3 bolts going through an amazing chain of mobs doing obscene dmg.

knightgf
08-01-2011, 11:43 AM
Did you count sneak attack damage for close ranged attacks? At the sneak attack range, its like shooting with a auto shotgun with a repeater...

voodoogroves
08-01-2011, 11:53 AM
Given all things being equal (and working as intended)... I think the Heavy Repeater out shoots the Long Bow.

Heavy Repeater
1d10 19-20x2
Light Repeater
1d8 19-20x2

Long Bow
1d8 20x3

However I think Arcane Archer is more fun to play. Lots of potential while leveling there with imbued arrows. Whereas the Repeater just has bolts, whatever bolts you can find and/or buy. Then there is also the secondary abilities, where a strong AA isn't gimped at melee (you took bow strength right?) from levels of a weaker BAB class. Finally, There are 3 epic Longbows to 1 epic Repeater and that repeater specializes in fire damage which is great for the current end game environment! :p

So since all things are not equal, in DDO the edge goes to Long Bow Arcane Archer. Don't dismiss the repeater though cause when your AA's Manyshot is on Timer them Repeater is killing things. Sort of like a Burst vs DoT mechanic.

Dogan
This is wher I need a screenshot of 3 bolts going through an amazing chain of mobs doing obscene dmg.

AAs don't just use a generic longbow - the named items offer much better upgrades.

And they don't bug out like repeaters.

Jaid314
08-01-2011, 11:59 AM
as i understand it, even the most epic of epic bows aren't really a huge amount better than greensteel.

also as i understand it, farming for the most epic of epic bows is a lot more painful than farming for greensteel.

while there may be a few arcane archers with an epic thornlord, i cannot help but suspect there are far more of them that use a lit II greensteel.

also, failedlegend... that's a very nice chart. but it's crossbows vs repeating crossbows ;)

that said, it does tell us that the attack rate of a repeater is slightly above one-weapon melee, while iirc the attack rate of a bow is considerably lower than one-weapon melee.

Failedlegend
08-01-2011, 12:03 PM
also, failedlegend... that's a very nice chart. but it's crossbows vs repeating crossbows ;)


Don't Xbows (non-repeating) have the same RoF as Bows? I just didn't feel like editing the picture.


AAs don't just use a generic longbow - the named items offer much better upgrades.

And they don't bug out like repeaters.

He did say vvvv



Given all things being equal (and working as intended)... I think the Heavy Repeater out shoots the Long Bow.

Jaid314
08-01-2011, 12:13 PM
Don't Xbows (non-repeating) have the same RoF as Bows? I just didn't feel like editing the picture.

can't say for sure, but there definitely aren't 2 feats for bows to increase attack speed (unless you consider manyshot to be one), and i'm pretty sure bows are at least a bit faster.

Orratti
08-01-2011, 12:23 PM
Purely ranged I like the repeater rogue better. It's like being a machine gunner. Before backstab range got increased you were always firing and moving very close to the melee. It's a stick and move build. Killing a target isn't always the goal, if one aggros on you you switch to another. Kill rates are good and damage taken is small. Repairs are almost nonexisitant. It's a money making build. I usually fill about 50 backpack spaces with nothing more than normal bolts. As you use them their spaces are taken up by loot. You have to watch hold spells or spells that will slow or halt your movement. Spell resistance is a very good thing to have.

Versatility is much better in arcane archer rangers. When ranging usually you act like a turret. Standing in one spot nailing things until they die. Manyshot offers probably the best damage in game for it's duration. Should something survive to make it to your firing position you can drop down into two weapons fighting and drop it easily. There is no need to move and fire. It's also possible to be a good healer both for yourself and some for the party.

krackythehoodedone
08-01-2011, 01:04 PM
I think the Bow has it ATM.

A fully kitted out HelvesAngel is getting the Strength into the high sixties.

Far higher than max Int on the Mech

With that Str and the Epic Thornlord the Bow is significantly better

But that does involve a heck of a lot of grinding.

Back in the real world probably not so much in it apart from the Repeating function isnt functioning

Maybe the best bit of advice was waiting until U11 and see what it contains

Jaid314
08-01-2011, 01:48 PM
I think the Bow has it ATM.

A fully kitted out HelvesAngel is getting the Strength into the high sixties.

Far higher than max Int on the Mech

With that Str and the Epic Thornlord the Bow is significantly better

But that does involve a heck of a lot of grinding.

Back in the real world probably not so much in it apart from the Repeating function isnt functioning

Maybe the best bit of advice was waiting until U11 and see what it contains

a fully kitted out mechanic is adding 14d6+20 damage or more to every single attack, and attacking substantially more often. you may deal more damage per hit with the bow, but that is not the same thing as doing more damage per second.

Failedlegend
08-01-2011, 03:10 PM
I still say use both and you;ll be the most effective...awesome manyshot and than repeaters when off manyshot

I also still say wait for U11 (oh please bring us this soon devs :D)

Doganpc
08-01-2011, 05:03 PM
I think the Bow has it ATM.

A fully kitted out HelvesAngel is getting the Strength into the high sixties.

Far higher than max Int on the Mech

With that Str and the Epic Thornlord the Bow is significantly better

But that does involve a heck of a lot of grinding.

Back in the real world probably not so much in it apart from the Repeating function isnt functioning

Maybe the best bit of advice was waiting until U11 and see what it containsWhats the Max INT on a wizard? Probably not the same, but when I TR this Drow into something a little more capable that INT # is going to be up there and I'll have a book full of spells to fall back onto as well.

Dogan
Ideally, similar results much different flavor.

Doxmaster
08-01-2011, 06:53 PM
The problem with the OP's question is that there are many types of AAs. My personal favorite is the AAA.

AAA(Arcane archer assassin) vs Mechanic:

At level 20, the Mech has 2 more sneak dice than the AAA however the AAA kills a sneak attacked target on a natural 20, or does 100 extra damage if that target has 1000 hp or more. In addition to that, they're doing 500 damage to any target due to slayer arrows on the same natural 20.

krackythehoodedone
08-02-2011, 06:55 AM
Jaid.

I'm assuming the 14d6 + 20 you mention is the backstab damage?

Which is very situational. You certainly wouldnt get it all the time.,

My crit rage Bowbarian is critting on a silly number for 300 damage odd.

80 on a normal shot i dont think any repeater can come close to that

Also how do you factor on the AA's Slaying arrow into the equation?

Dont get me wrong i'm not knocking the repeater build

I am interested in trying it.

Their was a build in fashion a while ago. A Bard with a repeater.

That appeals to me but will have to wait for U11 to see what is forthcoming

karl_k0ch
08-02-2011, 08:07 AM
Also how do you factor on the AA's Slaying arrow into the equation?

500 Damage once per 20 Shots (19 hits) = 25 Extra damage per shot, or 26.31 damage per hit.

Failedlegend
08-02-2011, 08:29 AM
Dont get me wrong i'm not knocking the repeater build

I am interested in trying it.

Their was a build in fashion a while ago. A Bard with a repeater.

That appeals to me but will have to wait for U11 to see what is forthcoming

Ah Bard AKA we don't care what you fight with as long as you sing lol.

krackythehoodedone
08-02-2011, 08:41 AM
Sorry Kary you misunderstood me

I should have made myself clearer

I meant how do you factor the slaying arrow into the equation Archer DPS Vs Repeater DPS

It didnt seem to be mentioned in the earlier posts in this thread

karl_k0ch
08-02-2011, 08:43 AM
Sorry Kary you misunderstood me

I meant how do you factor the slaying arrow into the equation Archer DPS Vs Repeater DPS

Did I? I thought adding 26 Damage to the bow shots would take care of this.

krackythehoodedone
08-02-2011, 08:51 AM
Sorry Karl

The post you replied to was addressed to Jaid and was questioning points in his posts on the first page.

The information you gave should have been factored into the points made then

And of course you are correct.

It is my belief that a High Str AA build does better DPS than a mechanic Repeater

Especially if equipped with top end gear

Failedlegend
08-02-2011, 08:52 AM
I meant how do you factor the slaying arrow into the equation Archer DPS Vs Repeater DPS

First: That should be Bow DPS not archer :P

Second: You forgot the third competitor Bow (manyshot) & Repeater damage IOW both.



It is my belief that a High Str AA build does better DPS than a mechanic Repeater

We all know that for some dumb reason you can get strength alot higher than other stats but a repeater fires a little over twice as fast as a bow (Bow = approx 55/SPM Repeater = Approx 120/SPM) so unless your twice as much damage as a repeater your gonna be lower dps.

Chilldude
08-02-2011, 03:36 PM
Gimpfight!!!

I know you probably said that to be funny, and I did find it humorous, but...

I had a rogue assassin that got smacked around too much and died a lot. Even when I didn't die, I'd be running from aggro and completely defensive doing almost no dps. I'm not saying I was doing it right, I know I wasn't, I needed more str, more con, and a lot more careful target selection. However, unlike a barbarian that can just get in there and spin in circles hitting everything in sight, an assassin has to be careful not only who they fight but for how long they fight them as well. If you do draw aggro... POP! right to the kisser.

I got a pretty nice heavy repeater from a quest, +3 shocking burst/pure good. It was just before Risia Ice Games, so I hung on to it so I could put icy burst on it. I switched my level 12 assassin to mechanic and was astonished at the results!

DPS

OK, the DPS isn't in maximized/empowered caster territory, however, I'd say it's pretty good. I'd say much better than as before when I was an assassin because I can put the hurt on a mob the second they aggro on someone else. I can also switch targets rapidly. With every volley of shots the screen lights up with numbers, albeit mostly small numbers, they really add up.

http://i52.tinypic.com/fupc3p.png

Another big plus is that the damage is completely independent of strength! In addition to that, the higher your intelligence is, the higher your back stab damage will be. I had really low str, so if I wasn't getting backstabs I was patting them on the back. The the crossbow, the damage is consistent, albeit fairly low without back stabs.

One of the truly great things about the dps with crossbows though is that you have the option to use special bolts for different types of mobs to either bypass DR or exploit their weakness. Of course the bolt management is extremely clunky and tedious, but it's doable.

Suvivability

This is really where it really shines... you are well out of melee range. You don't have to worry about cleaves. If you do get aggro, you have time to make evasive maneuvers. If push comes to shove you can kite the mob until it dies.

Skills

As a mechanic, you are best at what you do best, evading and disabling traps. I ran with a group doing Haywire on elite right after I switched to mechanic. I didn't get hit by a single trap, even when I forgot the second box for the trapped switch at the top of the ramp. On the final run out, I was picking up all the stones of people who died in the traps ahead of me. I was the only one to make it out to complete the quest. Even with a couple dozen metal dogs nipping at my heals and fire elementals relentlessly pounding me with fireballs. I didn't even die, I kited all the dogs until they were dead and looted the chest.

Caveats

It's not all rainbows and butterflies, against creatures immune to sneak attack, the DPS is very thin. A strength based two weapon fighter rogue is definitely going to maintain much higher dps when fighting those. As far as getting a good bow, you are at the mercy of the random item generator or the AH.

Conclusion

I love my rogue now. I was about to scrap her and reroll and now I'm very glad I didn't. I can be much more aggressive in combat without having to worry about getting planted in the ground by a giant ogre. I can confidently run through traps without hesitation to find the box, and don't have to pray for a lucky roll when I do. In short, I can adeptly perform my duties as a trapper and contribute to the party during combat without being a constant liability. It's a helluva lotta fun too!

Failedlegend
08-02-2011, 03:56 PM
I know you probably said that to be funny, and I did find it humorous, but...

I had a rogue assassin that got smacked around too much and died a lot. Even when I didn't die, I'd be running from aggro and completely defensive doing almost no dps. I'm not saying I was doing it right, I know I wasn't, I needed more str, more con, and a lot more careful target selection. However, unlike a barbarian that can just get in there and spin in circles hitting everything in sight, an assassin has to be careful not only who they fight but for how long they fight them as well. If you do draw aggro... POP! right to the kisser.

I got a pretty nice heavy repeater from a quest, +3 shocking burst/pure good. It was just before Risia Ice Games, so I hung on to it so I could put icy burst on it. I switched my level 12 assassin to mechanic and was astonished at the results!

DPS

OK, the DPS isn't in maximized/empowered caster territory, however, I'd say it's pretty good. I'd say much better than as before when I was an assassin because I can put the hurt on a mob the second they aggro on someone else. I can also switch targets rapidly. With every volley of shots the screen lights up with numbers, albeit mostly small numbers, they really add up.

http://i52.tinypic.com/fupc3p.png

Another big plus is that the damage is completely independent of strength! In addition to that, the higher your intelligence is, the higher your back stab damage will be. I had really low str, so if I wasn't getting backstabs I was patting them on the back. The the crossbow, the damage is consistent, albeit fairly low without back stabs.

One of the truly great things about the dps with crossbows though is that you have the option to use special bolts for different types of mobs to either bypass DR or exploit their weakness. Of course the bolt management is extremely clunky and tedious, but it's doable.

Suvivability

This is really where it really shines... you are well out of melee range. You don't have to worry about cleaves. If you do get aggro, you have time to make evasive maneuvers. If push comes to shove you can kite the mob until it dies.

Skills

As a mechanic, you are best at what you do best, evading and disabling traps. I ran with a group doing Haywire on elite right after I switched to mechanic. I didn't get hit by a single trap, even when I forgot the second box for the trapped switch at the top of the ramp. On the final run out, I was picking up all the stones of people who died in the traps ahead of me. I was the only one to make it out to complete the quest. Even with a couple dozen metal dogs nipping at my heals and fire elementals relentlessly pounding me with fireballs. I didn't even die, I kited all the dogs until they were dead and looted the chest.

Caveats

It's not all rainbows and butterflies, against creatures immune to sneak attack, the DPS is very thin. A strength based two weapon fighter rogue is definitely going to maintain much higher dps when fighting those. As far as getting a good bow, you are at the mercy of the random item generator or the AH.

Conclusion

I love my rogue now. I was about to scrap her and reroll and now I'm very glad I didn't. I can be much more aggressive in combat without having to worry about getting planted in the ground by a giant ogre. I can confidently run through traps without hesitation to find the box, and don't have to pray for a lucky roll when I do. In short, I can adeptly perform my duties as a trapper and contribute to the party during combat without being a constant liability. It's a helluva lotta fun too!

all this despite the fact he likely wasn't built to optimize said repeater...THIS is why we play repeater rogues :)

xberto
08-03-2011, 12:36 AM
all this despite the fact he likely wasn't built to optimize said repeater...THIS is why we play repeater rogues :)

Yup. Thats where it begins...then you get addicted and spend months attaining ranger lives and greensteel to really put the hurt on...

Doganpc
08-03-2011, 12:03 PM
Yup. Thats where it begins...then you get addicted and spend months attaining ranger lives and greensteel to really put the hurt on...Or Months with your head buried in the character planner trying to determine which of the sacrifices will play out best :D

Dogan
It hurts so good

EpiKagEMO
08-04-2011, 12:21 AM
Halfling Reapeter
Elven AA (ofc.)

ThePrincipal
08-04-2011, 12:04 PM
in the pure elf ranger AA vs pure halfing rogue mechanic... assuming both using GS LitII weapons...manyshot+slayer+strmod vs. hasteboost+SA+intmod ... my gut says the mechanic is higher ranged dps but I'd like to see someone crunch the numbers on this.

Jaid314
08-05-2011, 01:18 AM
Jaid.

I'm assuming the 14d6 + 20 you mention is the backstab damage?

Which is very situational. You certainly wouldnt get it all the time.,

My crit rage Bowbarian is critting on a silly number for 300 damage odd.

80 on a normal shot i dont think any repeater can come close to that

Also how do you factor on the AA's Slaying arrow into the equation?

Dont get me wrong i'm not knocking the repeater build

I am interested in trying it.

Their was a build in fashion a while ago. A Bard with a repeater.

That appeals to me but will have to wait for U11 to see what is forthcoming

if you're not getting that damage almost all the time, there are two basic possibilities:

1) you are completely and utterly clueless, and rogue is not for you.
2) you are fighting too many undead/constructs/elementals. given that two of those monster types feature prominently in... well, almost nothing high level at all... and the other is basically just scattered around in random places... perhaps you should stop running taming the flames by the time you're level 20.

oh, i almost forgot, there's also plants. tell you what: you figure out why you can't deal with a CR 9 "totally not a troll with camouflage spell skinned onto it" enemy as a level 20 rogue, and i'll tell you what you're doing wrong.

as to the other... do i deal 80 damage often with my repeater? well, that depends. you mean, like, before sneak attack? hard to tell. i deal lots of small numbers. the physical damage only generally amounts to about 40 though. but then, we get right back to that part where i get to add in sneak attack damage. the part where i am *adding* 80 damage to almost every attack. and attacking twice as often as your bowbarian.

i'm sure you do more burst damage during your manyshot. the rest of the time, repeater rogue damage is simply going to be much better.

Failedlegend
08-05-2011, 02:03 AM
i'm sure you do more burst damage during your manyshot. the rest of the time, repeater rogue damage is simply going to be much better.

You COULD do both :P

xtchizobr
08-05-2011, 02:16 AM
edit: nm!

DaSawks
08-05-2011, 04:33 PM
This thread is obviously not for you so why are you here...other than to be a SUPERTroll I mean.

Fixed that for you.

The main difference between a Rogue Repeater/Ranger/AA build is the lack of Many shot. This alone will out DPS any repeater outside of a SA situation. If one were to build a toon that was focused on PEW PEW than Many shot must be part of the process.

Is that better?

Failedlegend
08-05-2011, 04:51 PM
Great news everyone U11 is hitting Lammania on Tuesday (Delayed from original date of Monday) so it will hopefully be awesome and hit live end of august early September

Go to this thread to see the announcement...well sort of..just go you'll see what I mean.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=333388



Fixed that for you.

The main difference between a Rogue Repeater/Ranger/AA build is the lack of Many shot. This alone will out DPS any repeater outside of a SA situation. If one were to build a toon that was focused on PEW PEW than Many shot must be part of the process.

Is that better?

Much :) Although you can't just toss SA aside like that besides whether the short burst of manyshot+the slow rate of fire of a bow beats the DPS of the higher RoF of a repeater remains to be seen aside from speculation regardless that's why I built this.

Note: Subject to changes depending on outcome of U11.

Elven Kensai2/Mech1/AA

Mech 1 for Int bonus to Repeater damage (and some decent SA) Kensai 2 for favored weapon repeater (since you'll be using your repeater most of the time) and power surge for bows while manyshotting (of course other stuff like titan's grip, rage,etc. will help here) than 1 wizard+elf for AA

This build will primarily use repeaters but switch to bow when manyshot is available while simultaneously activating power surge & your strongest Imbue from AA this removes the weakness of the slow firing bow but keeps the awesomeness that is Manyshot.

The superior rate of fire of RXBows helps to offset the decreased speed of the bow while off manyshot and the triple shot (soon to be a triple hit burst) really helps to get those status effects out. My GS picks would be a Lit2 Bow and a Rad2 RXBow.

Note: Build requires +2 Int tome before lvl 8 for skills to work and a +1 Dex tome lvl 14...both of which are easy to obtain by those levels and I wouldn't recommended this as your first character anyways.


Elven 12Fighter/7Rogue/1Wizard (Kensai2/AA/Mech1)


Level Order:

Rogue 1-7, Wizard 8, Fighter 9-20


Stats (assuming 32pt w/ Basic, Easy to obtain boosts):

Str 14+6(Item) +1(Tome) +3(Fighter) +8(Power Surge) = 32
Dex 18+6(Item) +2(Tome) +2(Elf) +2(Rogue) +2 = 30
Con 12+6(Item) +2(Tome) = 20
Int 16+6(Item) +1(Tome) +5(Lvls) = 28

Feats

With the fighter feats the regular feats and the wiz feat you end up with 15 feats.

1 PBS
3 WF: Ranged
6 Precise Shot
8 Mental Toughness
9 Rapid Shot, Manyshot
10 Rapid Reload
12 WS:Ranged, Bow Strength
14 IPS
15 IC:Ranged
16 GWF: Ranged
18 Quick Draw, Toughness
20 GWS: Ranged

Note: Quickdraw. Rapid Reload & Toughness can be swapped around based on you personal preference.

Skills:
Fighter/Wizard Levels: UMD,Disable Device, Search
Rogue Lvls: UMD, Disable Device, Search, OL, Spot,& w/e

Note: Any leftover points from tomes/leveling put in Spot

This is how I have my hotbar set since quivers are bugged and you cant use the hotbar to swap em


Xbow - Main Bolt Stack - Secondary Bolt Stack - A few other less used xbows/bolts

Bow- Main Arrow Stack- Power Surge - Manyshot - Secondary - Imbue Arrow

Skill Prog/Enhancements



Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)


Level 2 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 4 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 16 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Kensei Repeating Light Crossbow Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Repeating Light Crossbow Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Longbow Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Repeating Light Crossbow Specialization I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Rogue Mechanic I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock I
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

xtchizobr
08-08-2011, 05:46 AM
i would like to make a special request in this thread.

can someone give me the basics about... just WHY halfling rogue? elves being medium sized creatures, their proficiency with longbow and longsword, their lack of a penalty to strength -- aren't elves the better ranged combatants? if you're gonna build a bow rogue, why not make it an elf? do the AA imbues not apply to other ammo types, only arrows?

also, would anyone like to give me a more entry-level explaination about bow mechanics? because i honestly have no idea how multishot works, or why it doesn't work on repeaters. is it like the barbie Rage where you get uses per day and it buffs your attack speed with bows only and not crossbows? or does it simply have a bit of a cooldown between uses? since crossbows have a better per-shot damage profile, why aren't they superior to normal bows?

without the PnP "attacks per round", it's harder for me to see how attacking works in DDO since all my characters seem to attack at exactly the same rate.

i've been having a hankering for a Thief-style bowrog since before it was cool (but i made a Wiz/Rog instead...), but i just don't know anything about non-casters so i didn't try (and fail) at building one. after playing my Cleric and Fvs, i just can't stand to do without Evasion and de-trapping ability! so i want to make that UMD, utility trapping bowrog now (what better time than when Repeaters are about to get fixed?). i had this idea that one should build mostly Rogue and take a Ranger level or two in the mid levels after one gets a decent Repeater to use. i also found on the wiki something i never knew was in the game: apparently Rogues can manufacture mines and grenades for decent AoE nuking damage?! can someone tell us more about that?

i want the ultimate Rogue! help me, too!

Failedlegend
08-08-2011, 06:11 AM
i would like to make a special request in this thread.

can someone give me the basics about... just WHY halfling rogue? elves being medium sized creatures, their proficiency with longbow and longsword, their lack of a penalty to strength -- aren't elves the better ranged combatants? if you're gonna build a bow rogue, why not make it an elf? do the AA imbues not apply to other ammo types, only arrows?

also, would anyone like to give me a more entry-level explanation about bow mechanics? because i honestly have no idea how multishot works, or why it doesn't work on repeaters. is it like the barbie Rage where you get uses per day and it buffs your attack speed with bows only and not crossbows? or does it simply have a bit of a cooldown between uses? since crossbows have a better per-shot damage profile, why aren't they superior to normal bows?

without the PnP "attacks per round", it's harder for me to see how attacking works in DDO since all my characters seem to attack at exactly the same rate.

I'll answer what I can.

- Repeater Mechanics need Dex (To-Hit), Int (Damage) and Con (HP) everything else is mostly irrelevant

- People usually go halfling for their enhancements to to-hit and damage (IIRC it goes up to +8) also no Con penalty

- AA only works with arrows, xbows use bolts

- Manyshot allows you to fire multiple arrows per shot based on your BAB (see below) ,has a 2 minute cooldown and lasts for 20 seconds. Unlimited Uses

+6 - +10: two arrows per attack at a -4 to-hit penalty
+11 - +15: three arrows per attack at a -6 to-hit penalty
+16 and up: four arrows per attack at a -8 to-hit penalty

- During manyshot a bow puts out DPS rivaling and even surpassing melee dps but when off manyshot even will all things equal the bows RoF is half of a melee's (see my build a few posts ago for my way around this)

- Manyshot only works with bows..why..dunno

- Yes Elves and Half-Elves (not Drow) are the only way to be an AA if your not a ranger they don't have much use as a repeater rogue although you wouldn't lose much if you wanted to be an elf.

- The main issue with Bow vs. Repeaters (no one uses regular xbows) is that Str for some dumb reason can be raised ALOT higher than other stats like Int but the RXBow fires much faster...I don't actually know if anyones done a DPS profile on them (If someone is bored feel free to do so) so I can't say which is better overall.

Doganpc
08-08-2011, 10:54 AM
- Repeater Mechanics need Dex (To-Hit), Int (Damage) and Con (HP) everything else is mostly irrelevant

- People usually go halfling for their enhancements to to-hit and damage (IIRC it goes up to +8) also no Con penalty

- Manyshot only works with bows..why..dunno

- The main issue with Bow vs. Repeaters (no one uses regular xbows) is that Str for some dumb reason can be raised ALOT higher than other stats like Int but the RXBow fires much faster...I don't actually know if anyones done a DPS profile on them (If someone is bored feel free to do so) so I can't say which is better overall.

-I like to have at least 10 STR as being helpless is 0 DPS and burdened takes away your evasion. Probably why I prefer Drow, the DEX & INT is cheap. Yeah you hurt in the HP department but its not like you're a melee. (10/16*/14/8/18*/10 *interchangeable)

-They have 2 enhancement lines, 1 for flanking (everything) 1 for sneak attack (everything sneakable). Too many encounters with undead and unsneakable/fortified enemies has really diminished its value to me and everyone who uses it as a basis for their massive DPS is situationaly wrong. (I love seeing my sneak attack die, its big but shy)

-D&D carryover... You can notch multiple arrows on a bow, but they only go on target in a fantasy world. However unless you use special bolts (and even then) you can only fit 1 bolt in the track of a crossbow. (Bolts that split after being shot would be cool though, less DMG but more chances to Crit)

-It very much is the unknown. The Repeater bug has prevented any serious attempts at DPS calculation cause unlike a melee you don't know if you're going to get 3 bolts every shot over 5 or even 1 minute. Even with that though I've invested in Repeaters, when they finally fix that bug I will be riding the Repeaters are Overpowered high until they nerf it in a ##.1 patch.

Dogan
I hear their shots were reduced from 5 back in the day to 3 that we usually get now.

xtchizobr
08-08-2011, 07:19 PM
...

in PnP, you have to be within 20 feet of a target to get your sneak attack with a range weapon, is that still the case in DDO?

i have heard mention of switching between bows and RXbows depending on when Manyshot is active. it sounds like a pretty plain cookie cutter Rog/Ranger AA build, is there anything important given up by pouring in a few ranger levels, even if you're going for a mostly Rogue build? the main concern is to keep Search/Disable and UMD maxxed, and to not miss out on too much Open Locks, though i guess if you take Ranger you are automatically missing out on a few dice of Sneak Attack. is this the "Helves Angel" build they were talking about?

it seems as though there isn't a negative reason against elves for why halflings are preferred for mechanic, it's simply that halflings get enhancements for it that elves don't? you can be an AA through Ranger without being an elf, though, right?

and what about weapons? particularly during leveling where your weapon's enchantments are high variable because of the item's budget. what sorts of weapon enchantments are best for general purpose damage: should you value a high enhancement bonus more than a typical 1d6 elemental damage effect? how useful is Keen and Righteous and Maiming and all that? i never seem to see anyone using things like Cursespewers or Paralyzers or Shattermantles, is this just because they're not as much personal pewpew and people like seeing big numbers more than the knowledge that they're helping the group?

Failedlegend
08-08-2011, 09:38 PM
in PnP, you have to be within 20 feet of a target to get your sneak attack with a range weapon, is that still the case in DDO?

i have heard mention of switching between bows and RXbows depending on when Manyshot is active. it sounds like a pretty plain cookie cutter Rog/Ranger AA build, is there anything important given up by pouring in a few ranger levels, even if you're going for a mostly Rogue build? the main concern is to keep Search/Disable and UMD maxxed, and to not miss out on too much Open Locks, though i guess if you take Ranger you are automatically missing out on a few dice of Sneak Attack. is this the "Helves Angel" build they were talking about?

it seems as though there isn't a negative reason against elves for why halflings are preferred for mechanic, it's simply that halflings get enhancements for it that elves don't? you can be an AA through Ranger without being an elf, though, right?

and what about weapons? particularly during leveling where your weapon's enchantments are high variable because of the item's budget. what sorts of weapon enchantments are best for general purpose damage: should you value a high enhancement bonus more than a typical 1d6 elemental damage effect? how useful is Keen and Righteous and Maiming and all that? i never seem to see anyone using things like Cursespewers or Paralyzers or Shattermantles, is this just because they're not as much personal pewpew and people like seeing big numbers more than the knowledge that they're helping the group?

The only thing I'm gonna say now is there NOTHING cookie cutter about any ranged build (except maybe a pure ranger AA) especially one that can cram in both Repeaters,Bows, Mech, AA and another PRE (most likely kensai2)]

Other than that I'll wait until tommorow because how ranged combat works just might get thrown out the window when the U11 release notes are posted in the morning.

Oh and i have nothing against elves...just look at my Fighter/Rogue he's an elf..you asked why people go halfling and I answered :D