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suszterpatt
05-31-2011, 05:23 PM
I've been playing DDO since the F2P beta. Since then, we got a bunch of epic loot, ship buffs, TR (!), new PrE's, races, and classes. But I don't recall any changes that made hard/elite difficulty more... difficult. As such, they're not the challenge they used to be, and a game without challenge is no fun.

Please, think of the multiple TR's with greensteel loot at lvl 12. Make elite dungeons kick our butts again. :D

Ridag
05-31-2011, 05:30 PM
If you balance content to TRs you limit content for non-TRs, having the potential of driving away newer players. The game needs fresh blood more then it needs challenge in mid level content.

The real challenges should be found at end-game, which has become a bit easier as well. Hoping the new end-game raid content that they've been talking about will pose a real challenge.

Bodic
05-31-2011, 05:40 PM
yeah it would be fun to roll back the Game to 06 days.
I recall when it was actually hard to run Info elite @lvl
Shriketalon used to hurt.

It would mean that only decent players are above lvl12

Chai
05-31-2011, 05:42 PM
yeah it would be fun to roll back the Game to 06 days.
I recall when it was actually hard to run Info elite @lvl
Shriketalon used to hurt.

It would mean that only decent players are above lvl12

And everyone else back then was on the forums complaining that the game was too hard. Look where that got us, heh.

suszterpatt
05-31-2011, 05:43 PM
If you balance content to TRs you limit content for non-TRs, having the potential of driving away newer players. The game needs fresh blood more then it needs challenge in mid level content.

The real challenges should be found at end-game, which has become a bit easier as well. Hoping the new end-game raid content that they've been talking about will pose a real challenge.The entire point of the difficulty system is to allow both new and experienced players to play at a level they're comfortable with. TR made the "power level" of veteran players much higher, and hard/elite should be adjusted to reflect that.


Also, newer players are still better than they used to be, just by having access to ship buffs and store-bought tomes. Even normal difficulty could maybe do with a slight upward nudge, but I understand the importance of (relatively) easy content, so I'm not advocating that.

Postumus
05-31-2011, 05:43 PM
I've been playing DDO since the F2P beta. Since then, we got a bunch of epic loot, ship buffs, TR (!), new PrE's, races, and classes. But I don't recall any changes that made hard/elite difficulty more... difficult. As such, they're not the challenge they used to be, and a game without challenge is no fun.

Please, think of the multiple TR's with greensteel loot at lvl 12. Make elite dungeons kick our butts again. :D


The solution seems easy enough: if you want more of a challenge then don't buff, don't twink, and run it under level.

Bodic
05-31-2011, 05:52 PM
And everyone else back then was on the forums complaining that the game was too hard. Look where that got us, heh.

I didnt complain I just DIED alot :P, with XP debt OMG I would never run Von3 Elite until Cap.

LoveNeverFails
05-31-2011, 05:54 PM
The solution seems easy enough: if you want more of a challenge then don't buff, don't twink, and run it under level.

while not the perfect solution, i agree with this.

The perfect solution? go back in time to when the game came out. God those were fun days...

suszterpatt
05-31-2011, 05:54 PM
The solution seems easy enough: if you want more of a challenge then don't buff, don't twink, and run it under level.If these things degrade the game experience, then why give them to us in the first place? Why should we bother getting epic loot if it will make things mind-numbingly easy, and we have to leave them in the bank to get a chance at a challenge?

Game balance should be done by the devs, not the players.

-Zephyr-
05-31-2011, 06:00 PM
The entire point of the difficulty system is to allow both new and experienced players to play at a level they're comfortable with. TR made the "power level" of veteran players much higher, and hard/elite should be adjusted to reflect that.


Except that TRed players and vets seeking time efficiency will often run normal a lot, and very few hard/elites (for first time bonus), because hard and elite are harder enough to slow up sligthly, or even worse, make that pug guy you allowed in die after dragging red alert.
I only play the game for 1 year or so, so I can't say much, but I don't think TR is really the point. The point sounds more about meta gaming - when you know the game well enough, you make it look like cake, even when it isn't.

Trillea
05-31-2011, 06:07 PM
The solution seems easy enough: if you want more of a challenge then don't buff, don't twink, and run it under level.

I would *LOVE* to run stuff way underlevel on my TR'd characters, but then I would end up grinding slayers at 18-20 to level because I would have used up all the good XP. This will be a viable option if/when they make more high level quests.

Rian
05-31-2011, 11:18 PM
/roll d100 to solo the beholder naked!!!! :D
fun times

Perhaps add another difficult (a side difficulty in addition?) to increase difficulty
call it: DDO CLASSIC!!! or something...

Vellrad
05-31-2011, 11:56 PM
IMO level modifer for hard/elite should be raised- hard +2 and elite +4 or +5 (instead of +1/+2).
What is point of different difficulty settings if they're all equal easy?

Kushiel
06-01-2011, 12:22 AM
IMO level modifer for hard/elite should be raised- hard +2 and elite +4 or +5 (instead of +1/+2).
What is point of different difficulty settings if they're all equal easy?

As I've said in other places - more options for differing peoples play styles is great. Arbitrary implementations of "challenge" or "difficulty" where none is necessarily needed is... incredibly less great.

Aside from there already being means for people to challenge themselves by attribute/feat/gear/skill/weapon selection already in the existing content further changes are not needed because of potential adverse collisions with:

1) -Favor accumulation by players who have limited time
2) -Experience accumulation by players who have limted time
3) -Actual *fun* of questing as a non-twinked 28pt first time player
4) -Actual *fun* of questing as a lightly-twinked "vet" status rebuild
5) -Actual *fun* of questing as a lightly-twinked TR
6) -Actual *fun* of questing as a lightly-twinked multi-TR
7) -Some of us are closer to 60 than 20; reaction times/twitch skills are atrophying... why make something more of a PITA for *everybody*? Implement more choices for individual players = great!

An arbitrary increase to the difficulty of existing content would probably mean that it would, for some percentage of the playing population, take *longer* to play through particular quests - while not being significantly more *fun* to play.

Jacked up runs of Holding For Reinforcements?
Jacked up runs of Chronoscope (that already seems to only attract level 20's?)
Jacked up runs of grinding 4 tombs to open 1 crypt?
Jacked up runs of any quest a party would have *run* running even without a rogue... but it is trappy as Xoriat?

Nope... I don't think there needs to be any random changes made to quest difficulties. Again, OP and supporters, some form of allowing Choice for those who want a more difficult adventure (and have the time/reflexes to spend attempting it) is great.

Maybe something like an "Epic" setting...?

MedicMoore
06-01-2011, 01:11 AM
I disagree with the changing of the difficulty levels too. In my opinion it would kill the new players coming into the game. I know this is not a big concern for people who have been playing for years and have accumulated a massive amount of impressive gear, but to increase the difficulties because you are not having fun running this quest is not fair to the ones who have yet to make that plateau. More end game content added I agree is a must.

BoolZ
06-01-2011, 01:37 AM
I would suggest that if you're looking for a challenge you should roll up a character on a server you've never played on before. Keep it a 28pt build, no Vet status, no twink gear, stay unguilded, and don't 'farm' for anything. Or try permadeath if you haven't.

Some people don't have ship buffs. I don't. I have a 20 and an 18 in a crappy guild I'm to lazy to quit, and don't want to leave the quest entrance for a ship invite to run Shroud.

Some people don't use store bought tomes. I do, but are a +1 hit/damage/ac/dc's/saves and +7 hp's that game breaking?

Some people don't have the ability/means to twink their character. Most new characters I roll will get the Chrono set at lvl5, enough haste/rage/barkskin/csw/curse/disease/posion pots to fill the collapsed portable hole they get, and +1 icy burst shock/acid khopesh/scimi/kukuri/greataxe of pure good at lvl4, but my first few didn't. My first khopesh user's first decent weapon was a Dynastic Felcata.

The challenge is still there, but you have to resist the urge to mash Turbine's easy buttons.

I mean on any given day the front page of the forums are littered with PUG horror stories. Underequiped, lost, lack game mechanic knowledge, and poorly built toons. You can't say the game's not plenty challenging when we've all run into those players. I know I'm one of them. 'Get your own curses'? I didn't even know I could get cursed in VoD before today.

altrocks
06-01-2011, 02:34 AM
I would suggest that if you're looking for a challenge you should roll up a character on a server you've never played on before. Keep it a 28pt build, no Vet status, no twink gear, stay unguilded, and don't 'farm' for anything. Or try permadeath if you haven't.

Some people don't have ship buffs. I don't. I have a 20 and an 18 in a crappy guild I'm to lazy to quit, and don't want to leave the quest entrance for a ship invite to run Shroud.

Some people don't use store bought tomes. I do, but are a +1 hit/damage/ac/dc's/saves and +7 hp's that game breaking?

Some people don't have the ability/means to twink their character. Most new characters I roll will get the Chrono set at lvl5, enough haste/rage/barkskin/csw/curse/disease/posion pots to fill the collapsed portable hole they get, and +1 icy burst shock/acid khopesh/scimi/kukuri/greataxe of pure good at lvl4, but my first few didn't. My first khopesh user's first decent weapon was a Dynastic Felcata.

The challenge is still there, but you have to resist the urge to mash Turbine's easy buttons.

I mean on any given day the front page of the forums are littered with PUG horror stories. Underequiped, lost, lack game mechanic knowledge, and poorly built toons. You can't say the game's not plenty challenging when we've all run into those players. I know I'm one of them. 'Get your own curses'? I didn't even know I could get cursed in VoD before today.

This.

When you can run a quest blind, naked and harried and still complete it without trying too hard, it's not the game that's too easy. I'm confident I could make a barnd new 28 point toon, just about any class, on a server where I have nothing (no guild, no alts, no twink gear, no vet status, no nothing) and still run it a hundred times quicker and more efficiently than I did the first time I leveled a toon less than 2 years ago. It's all metagaming. You know how far it is until the next shrine, so you know if you want to blow your SP or conserve it. You know how many mobs are waiting up ahead, even if you can't see them. You know how and when to lure mobs one or two at a time. You know where CC and DPS should take prominence. You know where the hidden doors, traps, quest items and bosses are. All before you even take that toon into the adventure.

That's one of the reasons I'd rather see more random map generation for dungeons instead of the static maps all the time. Imagine if you had to be careful and actually figure out where the central shrine was in phase 2 shroud? They kinda did things like that in higher level, like in Prey on the Hunter or Sins of Attrition (but that's only because they moved a portal within a static maze that doesn't automatically show up on your map. Awesome way to do it). I've seen Sins and Prey groups that spend a good 5 to 10 minutes trying to find their way through those mazes because they got turned around somewhere, even though they may have run it dozens of times. That's replayability and challenge combined. Sadly, there's not a lot of that in the game (or it's in such a limited combination that it doesn't matter. Looking at you Shroud Lieutenants).

Then you have players who power their way through the whole game, complain about the lack of challenge and then hop on Lammania the first day it's up with a new adventure pack and they tear through it with a 10th life level 20 wizard that's 5 or more levels above the quest and find every optional, hidden door, trap and secret in the new chain before it even goes live. Gee, I wonder why there's no challenge left. :confused:

So yeah, players kind of do it to themselves, but it's unavoidable. When you practice, you get better. When you practice a lot, it becomes second nature. I'm in more shroud pugs than not that don't even bother giving out instructions for killing order/who to save in phase 2 or 5 because it's assumed everyone knows what's up. While not as often, I've been in a couple of ToDs where it's similar. People just kind of assume their roles. Maybe the arcanes ask who they should be throwing recons on, but just as often they work it out in tells between each other rather than bug the rest of the group. And it works a lot of the time. IT becomes easy because you spent so much time MAKING IT EASY.

My solution, while unpopular, may be the most appropriate and logical.

Do you still play Tic-Tac-Toe? Why not?

Would you like to play a nice game of chess?

phum
06-01-2011, 03:06 AM
Could be maybe an added difficulty level between elite and epic. One with enough insentives for TRs, but not much insentive for non-TR's. E.g. (just a hurried sketch) loot being same as in elite, can be run only once per q, significant xp bonus, hard enough. Just a thought. No need to change anything that already exists imo.

Vellrad
06-01-2011, 03:26 AM
I don't think boosting elite's difficulty would hurt new players- they would have normal and hard, while it would give advanced players and TRs a bit of challenge.
Someone sugested it in different thread a while ago, that players should have option to choose level of quest, like in cove event. This, IMO would be good, it it would be limited to -2 - +5 levels.

suszterpatt
06-01-2011, 05:49 AM
This.

When you can run a quest blind, naked and harried and still complete it without trying too hard, it's not the game that's too easy. I'm confident I could make a barnd new 28 point toon, just about any class, on a server where I have nothing (no guild, no alts, no twink gear, no vet status, no nothing) and still run it a hundred times quicker and more efficiently than I did the first time I leveled a toon less than 2 years ago. It's all metagaming. You know how far it is until the next shrine, so you know if you want to blow your SP or conserve it. You know how many mobs are waiting up ahead, even if you can't see them. You know how and when to lure mobs one or two at a time. You know where CC and DPS should take prominence. You know where the hidden doors, traps, quest items and bosses are. All before you even take that toon into the adventure.

[...]
Eh, not sure if I buy that. Knowledge of the quest isn't particularly hard to come by (hello internet). Even then, there's no reason why that couldn't be factored into the difficulty mode. My impression of "elite" difficulty is one where properly built and equipped players who know exactly what they're doing are still challenged. Maybe I've just been extremely lucky with PUGs on my way from level 13-20 on my first TR, but I haven't been getting that vibe from elites.

Random dungeons... could work, but only if you can somehow guarantee that some layouts aren't a lot easier than others.

Shade
06-01-2011, 06:11 AM
Well it's not just TRs who have it easy, new players can too.

Thus why most newer quests are more difficult then older ones. Example: Lordsmarch series - incredibly more difficult on hard/elite then similar lvl gianthold content. The minotaur/ogres in particular have in the range of 1500-2000 hp, insanely more then anything in gianthold.

As well as the u3 free quests, all quite hard.

Red fens at lvl on elite is very tough.

Carnival, haven't tried at lvl yet, But a small problem elite I kno would be ultra hard at lvl, as the air element section is the same as on epic.

Only somewhat relatively easy compared to old content is what we just got in u9.. The first 3 quests all being a joke on elite compared to say orchard or vale content. However in the fleshs final boss somewhat makes up for it, he is very challenging, even to level20s (tho not exactly to epic geared parties).. I know madfloyd worked hard on making it tough on elite, after my and others feedback on the initial lam version being far too tame (night and day really)

So at least one dev still cares about giving us a challenge =)

I would love to see some older content revamped to be more challenging.. Not to take into account TRs so much, as thats really difficult to balance for.. But at least ship buff, and the stronger gear we can have at those lvls... As thats a fair exceptation to place upon even new players - at least those that consider them "elite".

Especially for quests that simply got nerfed too hard.

Example:
STK.. ~4-5 years ago, those 3 letters would strike feat into the hearts of noobs everywhere. Was a great xp adventure with nice loot, but some would dread at the thought of it, due to to challenge... Now its like, oh another casual adventure ive never done before, elite the first time? yea why not.

I mean sure, since its quite low lvl, so normal should be easy. Perhaps hard too, to offer more xp. But elite should pose a major challenge imo.. Some changes id do:
- Traps back to their old version.. Basically you get hit, your dead. No lever to disable the fire trap, either bring a rogue, or bring some elite jumping skill. (actually be more evil, and leave the lever in, but have it spawn an ambush of goblins + the minotaur muahaha.. and not disable anything)
- Beef up the stats a bit, too easy to 1 shot most of the trash especially on casters. +40% hp on the melee types. Casters are fairly devastating on elite (with hold person/fear/flamestrikes at a lvle we cant negate them), so they can stay squishy.
-Add a couple more casters in high up/ hard to reach places to force more strategy/ranged attacks to proceed.
- Return the guardian to his former glory. He can keep his new skin, but drop his hp 50%, and up his damage output 50%.. So there is far more risk of a party wipe, and not just a boring battle of attrition. Kill him fast, or he kills you fast, much more fun and challenging. Maybe add 1 more earth elemental too, in the far corner behind where you drop down, so you cant easily kill all 3 with 1 good nuke.

Kmnh
06-01-2011, 06:31 AM
The best ways to add challenge to TRs would be to let lv18 TRs into epic quests, or to release a lot more lv 16+ content. Right now, TRs have to run the quests above level, or they never get to 20

Shade
06-01-2011, 06:33 AM
The best ways to add challenge to TRs would be to let lv18 TRs into epic quests, or to release a lot more lv 16+ content. Right now, TRs have to run the quests above level, or they never get to 20

mm not really.
- Some players dont like to meta game, thus wont run epic at 18 anyways. So while thats a good idea, it doesnt add challenge for everyone.
- Tons of TRs reach 20 without doing many quests above there lvl. I'd wager most actaully.

Monkey_Archer
06-01-2011, 07:00 AM
I've been playing DDO since the F2P beta. Since then, we got a bunch of epic loot, ship buffs, TR (!), new PrE's, races, and classes. But I don't recall any changes that made hard/elite difficulty more... difficult. As such, they're not the challenge they used to be, and a game without challenge is no fun.

Please, think of the multiple TR's with greensteel loot at lvl 12. Make elite dungeons kick our butts again. :D

Hard and Elite is not intended to be balanced for TRs with epic gear. People don't grind epic content so they can go back and pwn hard/elite stuff... Epic content (which is only getting progressively easier) is the content that should be balanced for these characters. IMO epic quests should not be included in the devs effort to make content "more accessible". This game really does need some extremely difficult content that even be most experienced, well geared players can still wipe often. If epic is not intended for this, then what?

To Shade's point, a lot of the newer content can be extremely difficult on elite, even on TRs, and especially for people like me who will usually solo if nothing interesting is on the lfm panel. Soloing the lordsmarch series on elite, even with a hireling is no joke.
Most of the older content does need some sort of rework to be brought in-line with the difficulty of these newer quests however. The fact that level 13 lordsmarch quests on elite are 10 times more difficult then level 17 reavers refuge on elite is bit funny...

Its hard not to mention the idea of forcing Legend TR builds to run elite only for xp. Assuming that some of the older elite content gets rebalanced with the difficulty of newer content, leveling an elite only TR with a smaller xp requirement would make this game a lot more fun and challenging, without reducing accessibility for newer players. IMO at least :)

TyrenTyloren
06-01-2011, 07:10 AM
It might not hurt new players in the long run, but it would have an affect on them. And not just new players but the soloers and casual players as well, or even the ones who can't afford all of the fancy store bought gear, tomes, etc. I speak from experience as a somewhat casual player who often soloes or duos with a real life buddy. And although I don't mind spending money, I am very limited on how much I can spend. With the current gear I've acquired I find it extremely hard to complete most of the quests on Elite and solo/duo. By increasing the difficulty you would be forcing players like me to either stop doing elite levels and lose out on exp or wait until I'm 2-3 levels above the quest level. Neither option is a very good one in my opinion.

What if there were an option instead to upgrade the difficulty based on how many people-actual players not hirelings- are in the group. Say +1 level 2 players, or something along those lines. You could take it a step further and do something similar to what CoX does and allow players to set their own difficulties. For example I want my quests to spawn as if I were a party of 6 and at +2 levels. This way the casual, new, solo players wouldn't get irritated at having to struggle through insanely difficult content and the veterans, power gamers, etc could run every quest on uberly insane, demi-god difficulty levels. Everyone is happy. It even works for when the new players become veterans or the causal player decides to dedicate his life to DDO. A simple change in their difficulty level allows them to continually customize the level to their current player level.

For teams the level would be set by the group leader.

redspecter23
06-01-2011, 07:24 AM
I remember stepping into Gianthold at level 8. That was a challenge. I think part of the reason we don't see a challenge is that we run all quests that are one level below our current level. Of course it's not a challenge. With that disparity it really shouldn't be. All we need in order to bring challenge level back is the realistic ability to run quests that are way over our level and a reward for doing so. Right now the double TR grind keeps us on a very strict xp path and because of a lack of high level content, we run nearly everything overleveled.

That being said, I do think there has been at least some attempt to balance new content for more powerful characters. Compare the Lordsmarch chain to Gianthold. Lordsmarch mobs seem to have more HP and much higher saves. Unless you are geared out you can't just run around instakilling everything in there. Of course this is just my anecdotal opinion. I have no real numbers to back that up. Just noting how it feels as I play them.

macubrae
06-01-2011, 10:20 AM
For the TR's and meta's, maybe they need a new Hardcore dif. No shrines, no music, constant repops, a timer and debuffing rooms. Throw in all the orange, red and purple names too. To make it a little fun, when the party wipes, and they will, have the baddies do their dance animation around the dead bodies. I'd do it just to see THAT.

IMO the difficulty levels are fine, but if there is enough demand, maybe Hardcore is a viable option.

suszterpatt
06-01-2011, 10:37 AM
Ok, how about this: anyone remember Fable and the "boast" system? For those unaware, before embarking on a quest, you could make various boasts, e.g. completing the quest without wearing armor, or without taking damage, etc. If you succeeded, you'd get extra cash (which was kind of useless, but never mind that); if you failed, nothing much happened.


So, along these lines, how about more XP bonuses that rely not on completing something challenging (like conquest or opt bosses), but not doing something that makes things easier. For instance, +5% XP if you complete the quest without ever equipping any weapons (including scepters), or +5% XP if you complete without casting any arcane spells (from any source, including scrolls/clickies).

With these, players could impose extra challenges on themselves and actually get rewarded for it. TR's would get the increased challenge, AND a faster progression.

Thoughts?

Vellrad
06-01-2011, 10:39 AM
Ok, how about this: anyone remember Fable and the "boast" system? For those unaware, before embarking on a quest, you could make various boasts, e.g. completing the quest without wearing armor, or without taking damage, etc. If you succeeded, you'd get extra cash (which was kind of useless, but never mind that); if you failed, nothing much happened.


So, along these lines, how about more XP bonuses that rely not on completing something challenging (like conquest or opt bosses), but not doing something that makes things easier. For instance, +5% XP if you complete the quest without ever equipping any weapons (including scepters), or +5% XP if you complete without casting any arcane spells (from any source, including scrolls/clickies).

With these, players could impose extra challenges on themselves and actually get rewarded for it. TR's would get the increased challenge, AND a faster progression.

Thoughts?

I like this idea (not example of no arcane spells :D) but if it would be balanced well, I mean no easy options for same XP as harder ones. It reminds me a Gemcraft game :D

Kmnh
06-01-2011, 10:40 AM
mm not really.
- Some players dont like to meta game, thus wont run epic at 18 anyways. So while thats a good idea, it doesnt add challenge for everyone.
- Tons of TRs reach 20 without doing many quests above there lvl. I'd wager most actaully.

I mean like people farm shadow crypt on elite at level 12 , wiz-king at level 15, and so on

Kushiel
06-01-2011, 11:48 AM
::Snip::

Its hard not to mention the idea of forcing Legend TR builds to run elite only for xp. Assuming that some of the older elite content gets rebalanced with the difficulty of newer content, leveling an elite only TR with a smaller xp requirement would make this game a lot more fun and challenging, without reducing accessibility for newer players. IMO at least :)

;-} I'm so glad you ended that sentence with an "IMO" - because I hate that concept almost as much as I hate Dungeon Alerts. I don't want to be forced into a narrow block of having to acquire all of my needed xp to see character advancements by Elite runs at every quests - some of which are so very much not *fun* and just giant PITA.

What some will consider "challenging" and "fun" - not all will. Some of it is just cr@p to be endured (or suffered through). I had more than enough "challenges" on my initial 28pt, ignorant of the quest mechanics, non-geared first walk up through life. I *have* amassed what powers and gear I have so that I *can* in subsequent lives walk through the world again (and again, and again, and again...) with greater *fun* taking from my foes and more readily profiting (in wealth, items, and XP) than each slog through a previous life.

I am in this world to play and to have fun. If I wanted every move I made to be a "challenge" I'd try to end world hunger, unravel the mess politicians (and/or Priests) have made of simply living a life, mediate peace in the Arabic countries, or make verifiable contact with sentient lifeforms not of this world.

What is not needed is limiting, narrow, rigid, and unyielding mechanisms of playing in the world that are compulsory to experience the joy of amassing wealth and power. ;-}

Monkey_Archer
06-01-2011, 12:15 PM
;-} I'm so glad you ended that sentence with an "IMO" - because I hate that concept almost as much as I hate Dungeon Alerts. I don't want to be forced into a narrow block of having to acquire all of my needed xp to see character advancements by Elite runs at every quests - some of which are so very much not *fun* and just giant PITA.

What some will consider "challenging" and "fun" - not all will. Some of it is just cr@p to be endured (or suffered through). I had more than enough "challenges" on my initial 28pt, ignorant of the quest mechanics, non-geared first walk up through life. I *have* amassed what powers and gear I have so that I *can* in subsequent lives walk through the world again (and again, and again, and again...) with greater *fun* taking from my foes and more readily profiting (in wealth, items, and XP) than each slog through a previous life.

I am in this world to play and to have fun. If I wanted every move I made to be a "challenge" I'd try to end world hunger, unravel the mess politicians (and/or Priests) have made of simply living a life, mediate peace in the Arabic countries, or make verifiable contact with sentient lifeforms not of this world.

What is not needed is limiting, narrow, rigid, and unyielding mechanisms of playing in the world that are compulsory to experience the joy of amassing wealth and power. ;-}

Interesting you say that... IMO the most "limiting, narrow, rigid and unyielding mechanisms of playing", to use your words, is the massive xp requirements for TRs that force you to grind easy, effortless content over level. Limiting overpowered and overgeared Legend TRs to elite only, in exchange for lowering the xp requirements, in no way limits a non-TR from playing easy content for the material gain you describe.

I guess getting handed wealth and power without effort is fun for a while, but once you have acquired that power, then find out it was mostly pointless since the content you have to run is effortless anyway, regardless of gear, boredom sets in quite fast... and usually means you find something else to do (aka find a new game)

Kushiel
06-01-2011, 12:40 PM
Interesting you say that... IMO the most "limiting, narrow, rigid and unyielding mechanisms of playing", to use your words, is the massive xp requirements for TRs that force you to grind easy, effortless content over level. Limiting overpowered and overgeared Legend TRs to elite only, in no way limits a non-TR from playing easy content for the material gain you describe.

I guess getting handed wealth and power without effort is fun for a while, but once you have acquired that power, then find out it was mostly pointless since the content you have to run is effortless anyway, regardless of gear, boredom sets in quite fast... and usually means you find something else to do (aka find a new game)

While I may indeed be a Legend TR, I am not massively twinked out for every level of my followup journeys through life. I have no green-steel, I've never run Shroud - I continue to do that Wilderness Zone, but I dislike those flagging quests greatly.

My point being, there are some quests that depending on the level I am when I step into it - even if on Casual or Normal - do not mean an effortless walk to XP and Wealth for me. There are some mini-bosses and bosses that remain brutal fights for me... and some, alone, remain beyond my capacity to take out. And I try again every new life. I am not Forced to grind easy/effortless content as you accuse. I don't grind in the NNNNNN/H/E method for my xp either.

I am not getting handed my wealth and power - I put my effort and time into building myself so that I can continue to acquire it. And I want to be able to do things that allow me to continue to see my advancement without every step of it (Elite being the only method a TR could gain XP) being a frustrating application of my time in the world; especially if I've sunk a real-world hour into a quest... only to find that Elite is yet beyond my ability to complete. That equates to suddenly No XP (or the paultry dribble that some quests have from accomplishing goals along the way).

I've been here five years. What I want to do looks to take me another five (being horribly optimistic). I'm mostly enjoying my journeys through the world - although there are things I would change.

Changes I would not make are to have capricious rules implemented that too harshly tighten the paths players can experience the world and see advancement in their characters... For An Entermainment Medium They (may be) Pay For To Have *Fun*

I think we can safely agree we are deriving our *fun* in different ways through our play in this world. As long as we can all do that, with it being possible via different means, I think that is a good thing. The more Choice and Option we have the better.

shagath
06-01-2011, 12:40 PM
I have no complains about challenges. I mostly run elite quests when I level up to cap(8th life and at cap atm), only farm most useful ones to farm. You can pick a quest of your level and do it on elite. You can make it challenging yourself, you don't need a button for it. As a solution if that button is needed, that could be a new difficulty option. Insane? :) That would keep casual, normal, hard and elite the same and not many would complain.

Doomcrew
06-01-2011, 12:48 PM
Eh, not sure if I buy that. Knowledge of the quest isn't particularly hard to come by (hello internet). Even then, there's no reason why that couldn't be factored into the difficulty mode. My impression of "elite" difficulty is one where properly built and equipped players who know exactly what they're doing are still challenged. Maybe I've just been extremely lucky with PUGs on my way from level 13-20 on my first TR, but I haven't been getting that vibe from elites.

Random dungeons... could work, but only if you can somehow guarantee that some layouts aren't a lot easier than others.

"Properly built and equipped" ..... First life or third?

Much of the content was developed long before TR's and Green Steel, and a great deal of tweaking
the difficulty of quests after F2P was introduced, happened.

To say a level 12 quest is remarkable easier on a third life uber twinked toon that didn't really
work for anything (this paticular life) is overstatement. So question is, are you TR'ing to get a
challenge at level?, or to get back to end game?
If the answer is "challenge at 12", leave your TR cache untouched and only use what this life
brings.

There is no way to create a parody of challenge between TR's and First life/new players(or power
gamer vs casual gamer), especially when you consider the favor system as it works towards Tp's.

As it stands, I believe Fernando spoke at PAX about quests soon having a selectable challenge rating
similar to the Cove. This may allow an answer for everyone, or not. That is to yet be determined.

MrWizard
06-01-2011, 12:57 PM
I've been playing DDO since the F2P beta. Since then, we got a bunch of epic loot, ship buffs, TR (!), new PrE's, races, and classes. But I don't recall any changes that made hard/elite difficulty more... difficult. As such, they're not the challenge they used to be, and a game without challenge is no fun.

Please, think of the multiple TR's with greensteel loot at lvl 12. Make elite dungeons kick our butts again. :D

No reason to do hard if you are that well equipped and all...just do elite. And do not do them 3 levels above the quest level...when you are 3rd level, try doing 3-5th level quests on elite.

I guarantee, no matter how good you are, if you had never done any of these quests before (instead of doing them 400 times) they would be a lot harder, even well geared.

My best suggestion is to not use the gear and go in without all the ship buffs and thousands of pots...go in like that and see how you do?

Krago
06-01-2011, 01:03 PM
Too much bonus xp as it is.

First time bouns.
Kills
Breakables
Traps
No Deaths
No Re-entries
Ship Buffs
XP Potions
Trinkets
XP Bonus Days.

Oh my, how much more XP bonuses do we need?

Kushiel
06-01-2011, 01:36 PM
Last night I was in a group of mostly at-levels for a Normal run at Mired In Kobolds. I think there was one other TR and all others were on their first life. Not sure if they were 28pts or greater.

It was a good group. Stayed together, covered each other in touch 'n go moments, had a responsive healer and those who had buffs to share did with all. I'm fairly certain everyone stepped in with some amount of ship buffs too.

No deaths getting through all the Kobolds and finishing off the baby dragon (although there were some squeeky moments). Count that up to playing well together.

Mama knocked us all down. Killed every last one of us. We got her below half health before that happened. One held the instance and we regrouped to finish her off (without re-applying all the ship visits too). There were a few more deaths, but she ultimately fell. Neither the Loot nor the XP (nor the Frustration*) of killing her were "worth" it. But it was a good group of folks to stick it out through that!

*Frustration - That dragon moves fast (crazy fast even against hasted attackers), has multiple simultaneous attacks (which can be knockdowns), has AoE attacks, is in a confined area where it is impossible to regroup and regain composure, has damaging environmental "bushes" that do stupid amounts of damage to non-evasion folks (and sometimes really stupid amounts of damage to a failed evasion!). The dragon is great - some the situation in which she must be faced (and the meager rewards for doing so) are very much less than great.

Was a good group of folks!

If you are finding a lack of difficult things to do - play with her at level. We only attempted Normal. Having greater ease than we did... go for her on Hard and Elite: At-Level.

varusso
06-01-2011, 01:52 PM
No thanks. I have already done Quest-X 1000 times. I am not remotely interested in anything that makes it take longer to do it 1001 times. I WOULD support another dif setting above Elite, open only to TRs (like epic is to 20s) with higher XP + loot level, but no additional favor (it gives elite favor, just like epics). You can open straight to this dif if you are TR and of appropriate min lvl for the quest (again, just like epic).

This makes is 100% optional to do the dif setting for more challenge and rewards *AND* it guarantees that you are only running with other TRs. Solves everyone's epeen issues and gives benefits all around. It also prevents a minority of player preferences interfering with the majority of the game.

eonfreon
06-01-2011, 02:05 PM
No thanks. I have already done Quest-X 1000 times. I am not remotely interested in anything that makes it take longer to do it 1001 times. I WOULD support another dif setting above Elite, open only to TRs (like epic is to 20s) with higher XP + loot level, but no additional favor (it gives elite favor, just like epics). You can open straight to this dif if you are TR and of appropriate min lvl for the quest (again, just like epic).

This makes is 100% optional to do the dif setting for more challenge and rewards *AND* it guarantees that you are only running with other TRs. Solves everyone's epeen issues and gives benefits all around. It also prevents a minority of player preferences interfering with the majority of the game.

I was thinking along the same lines. An optional difficulty that gives more xp and perhaps slightly elevated loot but no extra favor. The only thing I disagree with is that not only TRs could access it. There are many folks who play that don't like to TR whom I would rather play with than many TRs.

Kza
06-01-2011, 02:16 PM
Solution from my point of view is some +xp bonus to play underlevel and more 15+ content. That way you would play harder content earlier to get faster xp, and not risk dry up on good xp quests at lvl 17+.

Just make some quests (hard elite) harder wo make any extra reward for it makes you just skip em. There are lots of "hard" quests ppl seldom run cause xp aint worth it.

(How many trs run repeatedly Amrath on Elite as xp? = not many = why = **** xp / min)

So just making some quests harder wo making rewards better from em makes even less content repeatedly run = a bad way of handling ppl wanting to do harder stuff. You must at the same time give that harder content real benefits to run.

Monkey_Archer
06-01-2011, 02:40 PM
While I may indeed be a Legend TR, I am not massively twinked out for every level of my followup journeys through life. I have no green-steel, I've never run Shroud - I continue to do that Wilderness Zone, but I dislike those flagging quests greatly.

My point being, there are some quests that depending on the level I am when I step into it - even if on Casual or Normal - do not mean an effortless walk to XP and Wealth for me. There are some mini-bosses and bosses that remain brutal fights for me... and some, alone, remain beyond my capacity to take out. And I try again every new life. I am not Forced to grind easy/effortless content as you accuse. I don't grind in the NNNNNN/H/E method for my xp either.

I'm not accusing you specifically of grinding easy content, but that is the most prevalent method for leveling TRs. It is also the most rewarding in that you complete more quests, get higher xp/min, more loot, and if you do fail a quest its not a big deal because it didn't take that long anyway. You may not specifically, or intentionally use the nnnnnnhe method, but given the xp requirements of a legend TR, repeating quests is inevitable.



I am not getting handed my wealth and power - I put my effort and time into building myself so that I can continue to acquire it. And I want to be able to do things that allow me to continue to see my advancement without every step of it (Elite being the only method a TR could gain XP) being a frustrating application of my time in the world; especially if I've sunk a real-world hour into a quest... only to find that Elite is yet beyond my ability to complete. That equates to suddenly No XP (or the paultry dribble that some quests have from accomplishing goals along the way).

That is a very good example, but consider it from the opposite point of view (from someone who wants the challenge of elite, and possibly above level quests). First off, they are already loosing xp potential by not running normal. Second, constantly running quests above your character level can make the last few levels to cap very painful as there isn't enough xp available if you've already ran endgame quests at lower levels. Third, there is no reward for running elite overlevel quests in the first place, so not only are you making your journey to cap more difficult, but you dont gain much of anything from it.
I understand that being forced to run content that may be beyond your ability would be frustrating, but consider how frustrating it is for the people that actually want to be challenged, with the potential for failure. Not only are they doing exactly what you described, (spending an hour on elite in what could have been a 20 minute normal quest) and running the risk of failure, but they are also being penalized by the grind-friendly nature of the current system.



I've been here five years. What I want to do looks to take me another five (being horribly optimistic). I'm mostly enjoying my journeys through the world - although there are things I would change.

Changes I would not make are to have capricious rules implemented that too harshly tighten the paths players can experience the world and see advancement in their characters... For An Entermainment Medium They (may be) Pay For To Have *Fun*

I think we can safely agree we are deriving our *fun* in different ways through our play in this world. As long as we can all do that, with it being possible via different means, I think that is a good thing. The more Choice and Option we have the better.
For the record, the elite-only idea wasn't mine. I was referring to another thread that I was following which suggested that.
In that thread I actually suggested that, rather then making TRs elite-only, to instead apply an xp penalty (-50% or so) to running quests on normal and lower the overall xp requirement somewhat. That way, players that prefer to run on normal could continue to do so, and cap in relatively the same amount of time (which would require some balance between how big the penalty is and how much the total xp would be reduced), but also that players who wanted to challenge themselves by running elite, overlevel content could do so without the risk of running out of xp quests at level 18+.

varusso
06-01-2011, 02:51 PM
No thanks. I have already done Quest-X 1000 times. I am not remotely interested in anything that makes it take longer to do it 1001 times. I WOULD support another dif setting above Elite, open only to TRs (like epic is to 20s) with higher XP + loot level, but no additional favor (it gives elite favor, just like epics). You can open straight to this dif if you are TR and of appropriate min lvl for the quest (again, just like epic).

This makes is 100% optional to do the dif setting for more challenge and rewards *AND* it guarantees that you are only running with other TRs. Solves everyone's epeen issues and gives benefits all around. It also prevents a minority of player preferences interfering with the majority of the game.


I was thinking along the same lines. An optional difficulty that gives more xp and perhaps slightly elevated loot but no extra favor. The only thing I disagree with is that not only TRs could access it. There are many folks who play that don't like to TR whom I would rather play with than many TRs.

Then run elite with those people. The reasons for it being TR only are many, but here are a few:
(1) We already have the Elite epeen problem. You join a group that has Norm or hard in the LFM, then someone insists on doing elite because its 'too easy'. Everyone is afraid to look like a sissy so they dont fight the elite guy (or they have already waited long enough for the group to fill and start and dont want to drop) so they go in on elite -- and wipe. Or it takes 5 times as long, when all you really wanted was a nice smooth quick easy run. If it is limited to TR only, then non-TRs cant be forced into doing the new dif when they arent ready/willing to do it (or forced to find a different group). TRs would have to make this choice, but it is aimed at them to begin with.
(2) The whole point is to introduce something that is designed to be a challenge specifically for TRs. TRs who dont want XP penalties from first time newbs getting pwnt by the first mob in the quest. If the non-TR cant even enter the dungeon, there is no debate. Sure, there are crud TRs and stellar newbies. But in total, the power-level of a TR (including gear and game knowledge) is above that of the first life toon. Its not fair (to the newb OR the TR) to shove them both into a quest designed with a TR's power level in mind. Thats the equivalent of pitting an epic-geared player against an AH-geared player in PvP. The disparity is just too great.
(3) Another intent is to give TRs a method of gaining XP proportionate to their leveling curve (and a little more enticing loot), with a subsequent increase in difficulty to balance it. You can either grind out the easy content for less XP or you can do the harder stuff for better rewards. First-life toons should not have access to that. It would allow them to level WAY too fast and end up skewing the TR vs first-life progression even further, rather than giving it more balance.
(4) Incentive to TR. Part of the appeal to epic is that you have to 'earn' it. You have to claw your way up to 20 before you can even poke your nose in the door. TR-mode would be similar, giving some folks who havent TRed an extra incentive to do so. If you dont want to TR, you dont have to (just like epics). You can earn all your favor on elite (or epic), and get XP/rewards appropriate to your first life progression. But if you want to get into the next tier of content, you have to TR.

Really, the point is that this dif is designed to give power-appropriate challenge and reward to TRs, so it would be balanced with TRs in mind and should only ever be open to (inflicted upon) those for whom it is designed. meanwhile, it leaves the other dif settings the hell alone for everyone else who just wants to play the game without all the flexing and posing.

And I find this MUCH more appealing than forcing TRs into elite-only, even if it meant dropping the XP required to lvl a TR. I dont *WANT* to be forced into elite-only, especially just to please someone else who feels they arent getting enough challenge out of the game. I think the TR-only dif would be a nice compromise all around, and wouldnt not require a revamp of the TR XP charts. You could either run the TR-tier dif multiple times for more XP (balanced by being much harder) or you could do your usual Nx8/H/E and tack on on one more 'first time bonus' at TR-dif for an extra bump of XP from that quest.

* Edited a few points for clarity. Added info from a previous post for easier reference.

Maxson
06-22-2011, 04:45 AM
Then run elite with those people. The reasons for it being TR only are many, but here are a few:
(1) We already have the Elite epeen problem. You join a group that has Norm or hard in the LFM, then someone insists on doing elite because its 'too easy'. Everyone is afraid to look like a sissy so they dont fight the elite guy (or they have already waited long enough for the group to fill and start and dont want to drop) so they go in on elite -- and wipe. Or it takes 5 times as long, when all you really wanted was a nice smooth quick easy run. If it is limited to TR only, then non-TRs cant be forced into doing the new dif when they arent ready/willing to do it (or forced to find a different group). TRs would have to make this choice, but it is aimed at them to begin with.
(2) The whole point is to introduce something that is designed to be a challenge specifically for TRs. TRs who dont want XP penalties from first time newbs getting pwnt by the first mob in the quest. If the non-TR cant even enter the dungeon, there is no debate. Sure, there are crud TRs and stellar newbies. But in total, the power-level of a TR (including gear and game knowledge) is above that of the first life toon. Its not fair (to the newb OR the TR) to shove them both into a quest designed with a TR's power level in mind. Thats the equivalent of pitting an epic-geared player against an AH-geared player in PvP. The disparity is just too great.
(3) Another intent is to give TRs a method of gaining XP proportionate to their leveling curve (and a little more enticing loot), with a subsequent increase in difficulty to balance it. You can either grind out the easy content for less XP or you can do the harder stuff for better rewards. First-life toons should not have access to that. It would allow them to level WAY too fast and end up skewing the TR vs first-life progression even further, rather than giving it more balance.
(4) Incentive to TR. Part of the appeal to epic is that you have to 'earn' it. You have to claw your way up to 20 before you can even poke your nose in the door. TR-mode would be similar, giving some folks who havent TRed an extra incentive to do so. If you dont want to TR, you dont have to (just like epics). You can earn all your favor on elite (or epic), and get XP/rewards appropriate to your first life progression. But if you want to get into the next tier of content, you have to TR.

Really, the point is that this dif is designed to give power-appropriate challenge and reward to TRs, so it would be balanced with TRs in mind and should only ever be open to (inflicted upon) those for whom it is designed. meanwhile, it leaves the other dif settings the hell alone for everyone else who just wants to play the game without all the flexing and posing.

And I find this MUCH more appealing than forcing TRs into elite-only, even if it meant dropping the XP required to lvl a TR. I dont *WANT* to be forced into elite-only, especially just to please someone else who feels they arent getting enough challenge out of the game. I think the TR-only dif would be a nice compromise all around, and wouldnt not require a revamp of the TR XP charts. You could either run the TR-tier dif multiple times for more XP (balanced by being much harder) or you could do your usual Nx8/H/E and tack on on one more 'first time bonus' at TR-dif for an extra bump of XP from that quest.

* Edited aa few points for clarity.

Sorry to Necro a little bit, and I have to say upfront I like the idea of Elite-extreme or whatever you'd name this, a difficulty above elite sounds great....But, and that's a big but (at least j-lo sized) I don't want to run with just TRs on anything, know why? Because for every "newb" who gets "pwnt" by the first mob of the quest, there is a (usually barbarian) TR "n00b" who gets "pwnt" by the first mob of the quest because many TRs are so unabashedly cocky about their TR status that they forget the only way they made it to 20 in the first place was with a helping hand from others, I've seen so many TRed toons who are virtually useless, or useless for all but one thing (in a barb's case, damage dealing, fat lot of good damage dealing and 600 HP does you when you're taking 180 HP a second of damage by aggroing 3 mobs and having 0 AC). Many TR'd toons aren't supermen, they are simply gimps with an extra point in strength. They're +1 Damage and +1.5 to hit barbarians, they're rogues with a better assasinate DC that still run in head first and get smooshed, they're sorcs and wizards that go all deer in headlights when a mob somehow survives their bonus 2 to spell DCs...

No, not all TRs are like this, but a past life feat and 4 bonus ability points at character creation does not a good player make. I'd rather party with the guy who's got an all bases covered 32 point build against tough mobs than a barb who doesn't understand damage avoidance.

phum
06-22-2011, 05:13 AM
No, not all TRs are like this, but a past life feat and 4 bonus ability points at character creation does not a good player make. I'd rather party with the guy who's got an all bases covered 32 point build against tough mobs than a barb who doesn't understand damage avoidance.

I don't mind the necro at all:D

Agree. Imo an optimal implementation would be open to all, but have increased incentive for trs. There are several ways to give that incentive and simply locking others out, would be a sad solution imo. There are many who enjoy an occasional challenge and if you factor in the ftp crowd, many of non-trs would also enjoy the possibility of extra hp.

Of course the side effect could be an increase in the amount of wipes at certain lvl ranges, but is that a bad thing?:D I'd say many a wipe teaches more than a smooth completion^^

varusso
06-22-2011, 11:01 AM
The problem is that the TR-tier would be worth more XP and have better loot, in exchange for the increased challenge. Part of the point is to ease the grind of TR 1+ If non-TRs have access to this tier, then that gap goes right back to what it was. Non-TRs would be able to powerlevel even faster by using this setting.

In addition, TRs complain about "noobs" all the time, and 1st life/first time players complain about 'elitist jerks' all the time. This gives a bit of a break between the two.

As I said before, there are TR duds and stellar newbs, but in pure game mechanic terms, a TR has more power than the 1st life toon -- even before you add in the gear that the TR probably collected through their first life. This gap gets wider with each TR. The idea is to provide a TR-appropriate challenge, without overpowering the newer toon or ending up carrying them.

Now, there are of course going to be subpar TRs you end up running with. You will learn to be 'selective' just like any other quest on any other dif.

This will of course end up putting a bit more of a divide between the 'uber' players and everyone else -- but realistically, I see that s a good thing. Neither camp REALLY wants to be with the other anyway.

The biggest part is that it is 100% optional. The ONLY thing you get out of it is better XP and loot (assuming you are able to handle the challenge) and it caters to the folks who want more challenge, without forcing others to do it. Non-TRs cant even get in, so no pressure to do it; no extra favor, so no pressure to farm for favor.

Maxson
06-22-2011, 03:00 PM
I think that anything where you have to group specifically with TRs is a bad idea for one additional reason: TRs are only a small sample of the playerbase, it's difficult enough to fill a party without limiting it to TRs, TR healers are especially rare, as TRing probably benefits healers less than anyone else.

varusso
06-22-2011, 03:06 PM
I think that anything where you have to group specifically with TRs is a bad idea for one additional reason: TRs are only a small sample of the playerbase, it's difficult enough to fill a party without limiting it to TRs, TR healers are especially rare, as TRing probably benefits healers less than anyone else.

I disagree. TRs are extremely prevalent. They can in no way be called a "small sample". And among them, the vast majority want a better XP/effort/time ratio and/or more challenge.

Folks who DONT TR either (1) cant afford to buy the heart or havent yet farmed up 20 tokens or (2) are intimidated by the extra grind in the second+ lives. For those in group 1, not much you can do about that, but for everyone else, this may offer an additional incentive to TR, knowing that the grind can be lessened, and that they can have additional challenge in subsequent lives -- if they so choose.

Mainly, I see it as a way of stopping all the demands to make the game harder all around BECAUSE of TRs who are overpowering the quests, providing a better rate of XP for TRs (with proportionate increase in challenge) and NOT doing things like mandating Elite only for TRs in exchange for a lower Xp curve.

I am open to suggestions to improve on the basic idea of course :D

grodon9999
06-22-2011, 03:37 PM
For what it's worth . .. I think the newer content on Elite is harder than older stuff on Elite. Did some older level 8 quests on elite yesterday then did Sentinels and the mobs in Sentinels had about twice as many HP. The traps also hit harder and required higher reflex saves to avoid.

dingal
06-22-2011, 03:42 PM
I've been playing DDO since the F2P beta. Since then, we got a bunch of epic loot, ship buffs, TR (!), new PrE's, races, and classes. But I don't recall any changes that made hard/elite difficulty more... difficult. As such, they're not the challenge they used to be, and a game without challenge is no fun.

Please, think of the multiple TR's with greensteel loot at lvl 12. Make elite dungeons kick our butts again. :D

Run more elite GH (Crucible for one can be BRUTAL without an evasion melee at the least) and Orchard (Think Ghosts) on a pure melee with no healers and no casters in the group. I think you'll find it's more challenging than you realize. Same for Amrath. Vale is not particularly challenging, nor are the majority of the newer quests. The U10 quests can be a bit rough on hard (at least delirium is, but I haven't done the others yet at level 16 on Hard) if you're a little below level.

Some of it not so much, other parts, quite challenging indeed, greensteel or otherwise.

For arcanes and divines most of the game is a joke but a pure melee can stll provide a challenge.

somenewnoob
06-22-2011, 03:55 PM
One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is difficulty scaling like Devil Assault is done.

Example: A level 2 quest might scale from 2 to 6 to 10 or even more extreme for more high level content, scale from 2 to 10 to 18. Would add a lot of higher level content to the game.

I think this would increase the playability of quests, who wouldn't want to run a level 18 WW or kill the level 18 Muck!! lol

Or as another option use the selectable level difficulty like Crystal Cove. I bet that would be a huge pain in the rear to do it like that though from a coding standpoint.

varusso
06-22-2011, 04:14 PM
One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is difficulty scaling like Devil Assault is done.

Example: A level 2 quest might scale from 2 to 6 to 10 or even more extreme for more high level content, scale from 2 to 10 to 18. Would add a lot of higher level content to the game.

I think this would increase the playability of quests, who wouldn't want to run a level 18 WW or kill the level 18 Muck!! lol

Or as another option use the selectable level difficulty like Crystal Cove. I bet that would be a huge pain in the rear to do it like that though from a coding standpoint.

I would expect that the Challenge System, which is based on the CC model, will do something very similar to this -- which would also negate the necessity of my own suggestion :rolleyes:

FlyingTurtle
06-22-2011, 04:19 PM
/notsigned.

If you want challenge you can play PD / ironman / no restshrines / timed challenge / whatever artificial rules you can think of to make it harder.

If other players want an easier time they have no such recourse.

I'm currently trying to get Elite completions with my super-casual playing partner for favor. It's like repeatedly banging my head into a wall. Stuff that I zerg through in minutes with a regular PUG suddenly becomes impossibly hard.

Trillea
06-22-2011, 04:21 PM
/notsigned.

If you want challenge you can play PD / ironman / no restshrines / timed challenge / whatever artificial rules you can think of to make it harder.

If other players want an easy time they have no such recourse.

A quest on *HARD OR ELITE* difficulty should not be played by those that want an easy time. I would say more but I would get infraction points.

Battery
06-22-2011, 04:43 PM
I've been playing DDO since the F2P beta. Since then, we got a bunch of epic loot, ship buffs, TR (!), new PrE's, races, and classes. But I don't recall any changes that made hard/elite difficulty more... difficult. As such, they're not the challenge they used to be, and a game without challenge is no fun.

Please, think of the multiple TR's with greensteel loot at lvl 12. Make elite dungeons kick our butts again. :D

bag your GS weapons etc and run with stuff with a low ML requirement until you get back to the more challenging end game content

varusso
06-22-2011, 06:12 PM
A quest on *HARD OR ELITE* difficulty should not be played by those that want an easy time. I would say more but I would get infraction points.

Folks who have been through the entire quest log 50+ times should remember that "easy" is relative. Anything that makes a significant portion of the game (IE: the hard and elite setting on every quest) harder for everyone should not be mandatory.

LOOON375
06-22-2011, 06:17 PM
The solution seems easy enough: if you want more of a challenge then don't buff, don't twink, and run it under level.

This!

suszterpatt
06-22-2011, 06:48 PM
For what it's worth . .. I think the newer content on Elite is harder than older stuff on Elite. Did some older level 8 quests on elite yesterday then did Sentinels and the mobs in Sentinels had about twice as many HP. The traps also hit harder and required higher reflex saves to avoid.
I must plead ignorance when it comes to the newer chains, as Amrath is the newest content that I own. But this sort of illustrates my point: what the devs consider Elite now is much harder than what they did back when GH came out. (That said, there was this one time when my level ~13 TR1 finesse assassin bailed out the entire rest of the party in elite Diplomatic Impunity).


Perhaps it's just the older quests that could use a slight bump in difficulty?

krud
06-22-2011, 06:58 PM
I've been playing DDO since the F2P beta. Since then, we got a bunch of epic loot, ship buffs, TR (!), new PrE's, races, and classes. But I don't recall any changes that made hard/elite difficulty more... difficult. As such, they're not the challenge they used to be, and a game without challenge is no fun.

Please, think of the multiple TR's with greensteel loot at lvl 12. Make elite dungeons kick our butts again. :D
Try shortmanning those quests, or without a dedicated healer, or something to make it a challenge. If you approach it the same way you did the first time around, except now with everyone all twinked and TRd up, of course the challenge will be less.

Also, there's the problem of time. TRs typically want to get to cap fast, so if you make it more challenging, they will get there slower. If you reward them more for more challenge then they will find a way to make it easy again, and we're back to square one.

The best way to make this game challenging is to make it a challenge yourself.

Postumus
06-22-2011, 07:08 PM
The Perfect Solution? Go Back In Time To When The Game Came Out. God Those Were Fun Days...

1974?

suszterpatt
06-22-2011, 07:33 PM
Try shortmanning those quests, or without a dedicated healer, or something to make it a challenge. If you approach it the same way you did the first time around, except now with everyone all twinked and TRd up, of course the challenge will be less.

Also, there's the problem of time. TRs typically want to get to cap fast, so if you make it more challenging, they will get there slower. If you reward them more for more challenge then they will find a way to make it easy again, and we're back to square one.

The best way to make this game challenging is to make it a challenge yourself.
Perhaps I should explain where I'm coming from with this suggestion.

I'm by no means a serious gamer. I spend a lot of time playing, but I'm not too worried about optimizing builds. I loathe grinding for loot. Also, I pug 99% of the time.

And still, I had minimal difficulty in any quest on my first TR (finesse assassin), and most of that was in Amrath. Now maybe I'm just incredibly lucky, but I'm thinking that if I, in all my average-ness, can easily pug my way to 20 on hard/elite content, then those quests just aren't very hard. Sure, I can start imposing challenges on myself, but I don't feel like I'm in a minority here.

Urjak
06-22-2011, 07:35 PM
i dont think making elite harder would be good. Why? F2P players need elite completitions to get favour so they can buy new content. If elite is too hard for them they ll quit => bad for turbine => wont happen

What i d much rather like to see is:


Could be maybe an added difficulty level between elite and epic. One with enough insentives for TRs, but not much insentive for non-TR's. E.g. (just a hurried sketch) loot being same as in elite, can be run only once per q, significant xp bonus, hard enough. Just a thought. No need to change anything that already exists imo.

This new difficulty should have same favour and loot as elite (thus no real incentive to run it as a new player .. experience is more than available for them - accept on high lvls due to lack of free content but thats a whole different story) BUT make mobs a lot harder and give it lets say double xp => TRs would farm on this difficulty like crazy AND have a challenge while F2P newbies could just play on normal to elite like now and still get their required favour ... just an idea though (i think something like double xp would be needed to attract TRs because harder mobs also mean a lot longer completition time^^)

Trillea
06-22-2011, 07:37 PM
Folks who have been through the entire quest log 50+ times should remember that "easy" is relative. Anything that makes a significant portion of the game (IE: the hard and elite setting on every quest) harder for everyone should not be mandatory.

If you want an easy run and quick XP, run norm and casual. Hard should be difficult for a new character at-level, and elite should be dang near impossible unless you are twinked to the gills with a full balanced party when you are at-level.

flynnjsw
06-22-2011, 07:37 PM
If these things degrade the game experience, then why give them to us in the first place? Why should we bother getting epic loot if it will make things mind-numbingly easy, and we have to leave them in the bank to get a chance at a challenge?

Game balance should be done by the devs, not the players.

Just because they give it to you does not mean you have to use it. Heck, you don't even need to get it in the first place if that's how you want to roll.

krud
06-22-2011, 08:28 PM
Perhaps I should explain where I'm coming from with this suggestion.

I'm by no means a serious gamer. I spend a lot of time playing, but I'm not too worried about optimizing builds. I loathe grinding for loot. Also, I pug 99% of the time.

And still, I had minimal difficulty in any quest on my first TR (finesse assassin), and most of that was in Amrath. Now maybe I'm just incredibly lucky, but I'm thinking that if I, in all my average-ness, can easily pug my way to 20 on hard/elite content, then those quests just aren't very hard. Sure, I can start imposing challenges on myself, but I don't feel like I'm in a minority here.
Sounds like we got the same playstyle. I do the same when leveling, however, if I want a challenge I'll either go solo (without hirelings), or find some newbs who don't mind not having a full or perfect group. I seek out groups that on first glance look like obvious trainwrecks. Set up your own lfm's and take the first people to click the lfm regardless of class mix, or server reputation. If the group doesn't fill in say 5-10 min then just go with what you got. If people drop see how much longer the rest want to go without getting replacements. You'd be surprised at how much more challenging things get when you don't fill or optimize your group. Simply pugging is not enough to make things challenging. It may be more challenging than the well oiled guild run, but not always.

People are too quick to jump ship when things look bad, or not even bother trying in the first place. They want a challenge, but they can't deal with the failure that inevitably comes when truly challenging oneself. What they really want is challenge-lite, i.e. success with a just hint of challenge. Failure is seen as a waste of time rather than a challenge.

varusso
06-22-2011, 10:22 PM
If you want an easy run and quick XP, run norm and casual. Hard should be difficult for a new character at-level, and elite should be dang near impossible unless you are twinked to the gills with a full balanced party when you are at-level.

If you want the quest to be harder on any given difficulty, take off your twink gear, leave your ship buffs at home, and run it the way a new player has to run it. Shortman it at-level or under-level.

What the difficulty of each setting "should be" is what it *IS*. Each difficulty scales up already. The reason it is so "easy" is because of gear, experience, and resources.

There is no reason why everyone who LIKES the current challenge rating should be forced into harder content just because you dont feel challenged enough. There are plenty of ways that you, the player, can increase your own difficulty in any given quest. I have suggested one of them (in my sig--which BTW, that post is in THIS thread). Other posters have contributed additional suggestions. Though I expect Turbine's Challenge System will likely answer everyone's desires, if its precursor in crystal cove is any indication.

suszterpatt
06-23-2011, 06:19 AM
If you want the quest to be harder on any given difficulty, take off your twink gear, leave your ship buffs at home, and run it the way a new player has to run it. Shortman it at-level or under-level.

What the difficulty of each setting "should be" is what it *IS*. Each difficulty scales up already. The reason it is so "easy" is because of gear, experience, and resources.

There is no reason why everyone who LIKES the current challenge rating should be forced into harder content just because you dont feel challenged enough. There are plenty of ways that you, the player, can increase your own difficulty in any given quest. I have suggested one of them (in my sig--which BTW, that post is in THIS thread). Other posters have contributed additional suggestions. Though I expect Turbine's Challenge System will likely answer everyone's desires, if its precursor in crystal cove is any indication.
Call me an idealist, but I'd argue that the entire point of Elite difficulty is to provide a challenge for well-built, well-geared, experienced players (at level). If I need to go out of my way to get that, then it's not hard enough.

That said, I understand how the power gap between TR's and first lifers could cause problems, though it's mostly due to gear (afterall, a couple extra build points and passive PL feats won't give that much of an advantage).

Maybe what we need is a new difficulty mode that automatically disjuncts your gear every minute. ;)

varusso
06-23-2011, 06:31 AM
Call me an idealist, but I'd argue that the entire point of Elite difficulty is to provide a challenge for well-built, well-geared, experienced players (at level). If I need to go out of my way to get that, then it's not hard enough.

That said, I understand how the power gap between TR's and first lifers could cause problems, though it's mostly due to gear (afterall, a couple extra build points and passive PL feats won't give that much of an advantage).

Maybe what we need is a new difficulty mode that automatically disjuncts your gear every minute. ;)

The inevitable power creep as the game ages would require them to continuously move the bar if they tried to balance current difficulties in this way -- and in the process put it further and further out of reach for new players and more casual vets. Better to add a new diff setting aimed specifically at those players.

A dif that disables your gear would be essentially the same as players voluntarily ditching their twink gear -- given that most players seeking 'more challenge' dont want to do this themselves, it would really just tick ppl off.

krud
06-27-2011, 11:46 AM
copied from other thread, but appropriate here too:

The minute people discover the harder difficulties are more profitable, they will figure a way to run them as flawlessly and mind-numbingly as they do normal content. There are two diametrically opposed ideas going on here. The race thru repetitive content to get to cap as fast as one can vs the desire for something more exciting to do. Excitement is never going to happen when you repeat things a whole bunch of times so much that you know it like the back of your hand.

If speed/time is what people are after, then find a way to reward speed. Make speed itself exciting (much like some of the early shroud speed runs). Figure out a relation between completion time, objectives completed, and give a bonus for completing them as fast as possible. Perhaps, give an even bigger reward based on a correlation of extreme speed combined with the least amount of time with dungeon alert. These would have to be insanely fast times needed for better rewards. Faster and faster times, with less and less DA would get better and better xp returns. There would be no end to the challenge, only how much faster you can complete the most objectives, while dispatching all encounters as quickly as possible. Afterall, that's what most of these people demanding a challenge really want, something exciting to do on their race to cap again. Make that race the challenge.

varusso
06-27-2011, 11:54 AM
copied from other thread, but appropriate here too:

The minute people discover the harder difficulties are more profitable, they will figure a way to run them as flawlessly and mind-numbingly as they do normal content. There are two diametrically opposed ideas going on here. The race thru repetitive content to get to cap as fast as one can vs the desire for something more exciting to do. Excitement is never going to happen when you repeat things a whole bunch of times so much that you know it like the back of your hand.

If speed/time is what people are after, then find a way to reward speed. Make speed itself exciting (much like some of the early shroud speed runs). Figure out a relation between completion time, objectives completed, and give a bonus for completing them as fast as possible. Perhaps, give an even bigger reward based on a correlation of extreme speed combined with the least amount of time with dungeon alert. These would have to be insanely fast times needed for better rewards. Faster and faster times, with less and less DA would get better and better xp returns. There would be no end to the challenge, only how much faster you can complete the most objectives, while dispatching all encounters as quickly as possible. Afterall, that's what most of these people demanding a challenge really want, something exciting to do on their race to cap again. Make that race the challenge.

"Time Trials" isnt a bad idea. It could be as simple as completing the dungeon in less than X minutes for a bonus (the chart already tracks your time), with an increasing bonus for shorter times, just like the increasing bonus for breaking/killing more stuff. Of course, this would directly encourage more zerging of every quest -- which is fine for those who have been around a while, but its not everyone's playstyle, and it means new players will end up in even more rushed groups. Currently, completing a quest faster ALREADY has real and substantial rewards, though -- you can move on to another quest (or repeat the same one) faster, which nets you more XP/loot per hour tan completing them at a slower pace. There just isnt a direct in-game display of these things.

krud
06-27-2011, 12:03 PM
"Time Trials" isnt a bad idea. It could be as simple as completing the dungeon in less than X minutes for a bonus (the chart already tracks your time), with an increasing bonus for shorter times, just like the increasing bonus for breaking/killing more stuff. Of course, this would directly encourage more zerging of every quest -- which is fine for those who have been around a while, but its not everyone's playstyle, and it means new players will end up in even more rushed groups. Currently, completing a quest faster ALREADY has real and substantial rewards, though -- you can move on to another quest (or repeat the same one) faster, which nets you more XP/loot per hour tan completing them at a slower pace. There just isnt a direct in-game display of these things.
I wouldn't give much bonus for simply zerging to completion. I would set the bar very high, and make DA substantially eat into the bonus, so you can't just run, gather mobs, and burn them all at the end. Side objectives, that most zergers bypass, could add substantially more if they are able to fit them in, while still completing the quest in even faster time. The need for speed might be so high that all shrines would have to be bypassed. Make the reward very small, or non-existent on normal, but increase it on hard and more on elite.

varusso
06-27-2011, 12:07 PM
I wouldn't give much bonus for simply zerging to completion. I would set the bar very high, and make DA substantially eat into the bonus, so you can't just run, gather mobs, and burn them all at the end. Side objectives, that most zergers bypass, could add substantially more if they are able to fit them in, while still completing the quest in even faster time. The need for speed might be so high that all shrines would have to be bypassed. Make the reward very small, or non-existent on normal, but increase it on hard and more on elite.

All interesting ideas, but I think the more likely implementation from Turbine (if they were to do it at all) would be a simple timer-based bonus, ignoring all other factors, just like the other bonuses they added. It then becomes a matter of which is more important to you -- the timer bonus, or conquest/ransack bonus? Or trying to get all 3 (along with no deaths etc.).

Kominalito
06-27-2011, 12:09 PM
Also, newer players are still better than they used to be, just by having access to ship buffs and store-bought tomes.

i dont think you mean "better" i think you mean "have it easier".