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Terrex
05-27-2011, 09:40 AM
It seems that successful exploration should have an additional benefit. For each objective found, always place that objective in the Fog of War mode (grayed out), not the unexplored mode (blacked out). Further, if the exploration quest has been completed for the wilderness area, then place the entire area in Fog of War mode.

Silverwren
05-27-2011, 10:09 AM
I agree. Once you explore part or all of a wilderness area, it should be as though the character has committed it to memory. I really dislike switching to a different character for a little while and then returning to find that my entire map for the Sands (or other wilderness area) is blacked out.

ProdigalGuru
05-27-2011, 10:15 AM
/support

Even though it is not optimal for games designed to keep you playing longer.

Dragaer
05-27-2011, 10:18 AM
OR...actually have the explorer area in your memory; then you'll never need the map.

varusso
05-27-2011, 10:23 AM
OR...actually have the explorer area in your memory; then you'll never need the map.

Funny I thought the whole POINT of a map was so you DONT have to memorize a place. And no, third party resources dont count.

Ithaquah
05-27-2011, 10:25 AM
There is the benefit of quick transport to the zone if you get an airship navigator...


Navigator: Pawlo Mapmaker

Grants the ability to hire a navigator for a limited duration on an airship, who will allow transport to any public area for which you have completed the associated Explorer quest.


Navigator: Artleblart

Grants the ability to hire a navigator for a limited duration on an airship, who will allow transport to any public area for which you have started (or completed) the associated Explorer quest.

Dragaer
05-27-2011, 10:26 AM
The point of a map is to lead you to where you don't know where to go. In this case it is usefull when you are in an area you've never been too before, and can look at the map and see how you got there.

Do you still use a map to get to your work, home, school etc??

AcesWylde
05-27-2011, 10:29 AM
OR...actually have the explorer area in your memory; then you'll never need the map.

might work for some, but not for most

My guild leader seems to be able to memorize aver area/quest in the game after a single run...I on the other hand still get lost on the way to the bathroom in my own house ;>

the 2nd part is a slight exaggeration, unfortunately the 1st isn't :(

varusso
05-27-2011, 10:37 AM
The point of a map is to lead you to where you don't know where to go. In this case it is usefull when you are in an area you've never been too before, and can look at the map and see how you got there.

Do you still use a map to get to your work, home, school etc??

The point of a map is to help you find your way BACK TO an area where you have already been, or to a place where someone ELSE has already been, that you have not. By definition, if you know an area, you dont need a map to it. Not everyone is capable of memorizing every single location in every single zone of the game. In fact, most people are NOT capable of doing so. At best, they have a 'general idea' of where something is, and use the map to zero in on it.

If you worked in 2-300 different places, which changed according to the whim of your co-workers, many of which you had never even been to before, yes you WOULD need a map to get there.

I used to deliver for a living, and I could tell you where just about any address that popped up was, just by looking at it, even if I had never been to that particular location, because i knew the area very well. But when I was loaned out to another store, I still needed their maps. If I left a particular area for a month or two, it started to fade, and I would then use MY book of maps to help refresh my memory. Same thing applies in-game.

I have several game maps saved on my comp with extensive notes, which I use as a reference whenever I go into a wilderness zone. I see no reason why we shouldnt be able to do that in game instead of using an outside source to accomplish the same thing.

Dragaer
05-27-2011, 10:41 AM
If you look at it that way - be greatefull that they do not make us use pack space for maps and accept it for what it is.

kratimas
05-27-2011, 10:45 AM
Do you still use a map to get to your work, home, school etc??

This is kind of a silly analogy.

I drive to work almost everyday of my life.

Running explorable areas, haha not so much.

My jobs pays the bills, keeps a roof over my families head and food in their bellies so, I want to remember how to get there.

Memorizing explorable areas, haha not so much.

Now if you have no job, family, or bills to pay and can sit in front of your grandsma's computer all day running these explorable areas to memorize then good for you.

Otherwise once I have ran them the FoW should be gone from the screen :)

Just my 1.99999 cents worth.

eulogy098
05-27-2011, 10:49 AM
The reason for the map blacking out is a technical issue, not a design decision. The developers felt that saving such data for every players explorer on every map was not worth the resources and thus DDO only saves up to 3 maps worth.

There's really no debate to be had.

varusso
05-27-2011, 10:49 AM
If you look at it that way - be greatefull that they do not make us use pack space for maps and accept it for what it is.

They dont make maps take up space because they know it would be stupid, just like making coins take up space. There are actually alot of other trappings in the game that shouldnt take up space (or should only take up one space) but the limitations of the engine force them to do so for now.

All of that aside, this is just a silly response. Of COURSE I am going to look at a map as being used as -- A MAP. Just like every other sane person in the world.

varusso
05-27-2011, 10:52 AM
The reason for the map blacking out is a technical issue, not a design decision. The developers felt that saving such data for every players explorer on every map was not worth the resources and thus DDO only saves up to 3 maps worth.

There's really no debate to be had.

Which is why they could add the option to store it locally. Honestly, I dont think it would be pratical to add an interactive map without having it store locally (yes perhaps even allow the notes to be edited outside of the game -- though not the fog of war or the image itself, only be allowed to locally edit notes that have been entered in-game). If you want the benefit, you pay with your own resources instead of a server-side (or client) save. Also why the option should be there to then share the maps in order to reduce your own resource investment, not to mention benefiting from the player's effort on all toons. Its not like anyone is asking to pass epic gear from toon to toon here. Its just a map O.o

Zenako
05-27-2011, 10:55 AM
I would offer that having the DDO maps available, is only a minor help. I don't think the desert map really helps people get to some of those locations. You really need to look at the geography and follow the paths (since the maps are all top down 2-d drawings with no real 3-d depth aspects to them and the numerous bridges and crossings in the desert confound most people just trying to follow the image. Most of the other zones are pretty much 2-d so the maps are more useful in those areas.

Think of the dungeon maps for the PIT and Coal Chamber...for something that helps but doesn't.

varusso
05-27-2011, 10:58 AM
I would offer that having the DDO maps available, is only a minor help. I don't think the desert map really helps people get to some of those locations. You really need to look at the geography and follow the paths (since the maps are all top down 2-d drawings with no real 3-d depth aspects to them and the numerous bridges and crossings in the desert confound most people just trying to follow the image. Most of the other zones are pretty much 2-d so the maps are more useful in those areas.

If you could make notes on the map, you could add an 'interest point' thats says something like 'To get to Point B, go here' then add a series of interest points along convoluted/multi-tiered paths. Pro-tip: This is something I ALREADY do on my own maps, saved on my comp. The difference is that it requires me to go out of game and use an image editor, instead of being able to use my in-game map for this.

And even if it didnt help on every single map, it would still be beneficial on the vast majority. In the cases of the ones where it wouldnt -- those maps are almost useless anyway except as a vague reference, so the point is really moot. And even in THOSE cases, being able to place notations on the map would still be better than just a top-down "smooshed" visual of the zone.

Zenako
05-27-2011, 11:05 AM
Now another way to approach this would be to think about creating a new reward for in game FAVOR. Explorers Guild Favor (semi random name). It could apply to character or to account on a server. Once you achieve that level of reward, Native Guides appear right inside the Zone entrance, and will only engage in dialog if your favor has met the requirement. They can port you directly to the spot outside any dungeon/quest entrance in that zone. (The same spot you appear in if you step out the quest entrance.)

It could be a single total favor benchmark (3000 for example) or pegged to areas and higher favor totals, or to having maxed out all of the categories in the zone. All Explorers, all Rares and topped off on Kills. You know the zone, perhaps too well. I know many times out in the vale, with characters who had topped it all off, (and before renown existed) many times the dash to the quest was run to avoid any delays or melee and loss of HP/SP along the way. The few trogs/spiders/bezhikra were all just considered nuisances along the run. Much like the person in GH who ports you nearer the three top quests, this could be a nice feature to work for and would really be more appealing as an account award, much like 32 point builds, etc.

CalydorEstalon
05-27-2011, 11:10 AM
The reason for the map blacking out is a technical issue, not a design decision. The developers felt that saving such data for every players explorer on every map was not worth the resources and thus DDO only saves up to 3 maps worth.

There's really no debate to be had.

And a single line of code switching from blacked out to 100% shown but in FoW if you have all Explorer points discovered is not going to change the size of the data stored at all.

Think of it as a bunch of layers.

At the very bottom is the map in all its colored and bright glory.
On top of that is Unexplored, blacking everything out.
On top of that is Fog of War, giving you a faint peek through the black.
On top of that is Current, shining some light through the fog to reveal the map at the bottom properly.

The switch requested would simply remove the second layer. If anything it should cause a very, very small improvement in rendering the map.

Musouka
05-27-2011, 11:11 AM
Ok... my suggestion. If you cannot remember which way to go, or whatever... go to DDOwiki.com/ print out the map of the explorer area you are having trouble with. Problem solved.

varusso
05-27-2011, 11:12 AM
Ok... my suggestion. If you cannot remember which way to go, or whatever... go to DDOwiki.com/ print out the map of the explorer area you are having trouble with. Problem solved.

Once again, you should not have to go to a third party source for something that is already in-game and just needs to be tweaked to make it better.

Musouka
05-27-2011, 11:15 AM
Once again, you should not have to go to a third party source for something that is already in-game and just needs to be tweaked to make it better.

Ok, then don't go to the wiki. Finish the explorer once, take a screenshot of the map and print it out. That's not going to a third party.

In pen and paper, usually you have one person keep track of where you've been, kind of drawing out a rough map. Printing out a screenshot would practically be the same thing for this case.

varusso
05-27-2011, 11:22 AM
Ok, then don't go to the wiki. Finish the explorer once, take a screenshot of the map and print it out. That's not going to a third party.

In pen and paper, usually you have one person keep track of where you've been, kind of drawing out a rough map. Printing out a screenshot would practically be the same thing for this case.

And also again, I already have maps saved to my HD that I make notations on. Its still going outside of the game for a resource; in this case, the third party is you, not an anonymous webpage or app.

The in-game map is the equivalent of drawing a map in PnP. It just needs a few tweaks to give it the actual functionality of a hand-drawn map. There is honestly no reason NOT to allow players to 'pin' their own maps in-game.

EDIT: Sorry folks I just realized I am referencing some posts that arent in THIS thread. I am actually in 2 different 'map' threads at the moment, and some of the talking points I am referencing are actually in the OTHER thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=320581

Musouka
05-27-2011, 11:27 AM
And also again, I already have maps saved to my HD that I make notations on. Its still going outside of the game for a resource; in this case, the third party is you, not an anonymous webpage or app.

The in-game map is the equivalent of drawing a map in PnP. It just needs a few tweaks to give it the actual functionality of a hand-drawn map. There is honestly no reason NOT to allow players to 'pin' their own maps in-game.

Wouldn't 'you' be a second party? As without 'you,' the game does not exist. If one chooses to remain in the role of ignorance and not use every available asset one has, then it is a choice and not something that needs to be fixed. Sorry for actually not accepting the fact that you want to dumb down the players more. I figured it was a good part of the game to inspire people to actually use their brains and remember something. Next you're going to ask for every quest map to be wide open, as long as you have played it once, and mapped it out. Talk about ruining the experience.

Dragaer
05-27-2011, 11:29 AM
There is honestly no reason NOT to allow players to 'pin' their own maps in-game.

There may be no reason to not allow this - but I think they have more important things to work on/fix. This is really not an issue to complain about.

varusso
05-27-2011, 11:37 AM
Wouldn't 'you' be a second party? As without 'you,' the game does not exist. If one chooses to remain in the role of ignorance and not use every available asset one has, then it is a choice and not something that needs to be fixed. Sorry for actually not accepting the fact that you want to dumb down the players more. I figured it was a good part of the game to inspire people to actually use their brains and remember something. Next you're going to ask for every quest map to be wide open, as long as you have played it once, and mapped it out. Talk about ruining the experience.

No. DDO is the first party, the client on your comp is the second party. Anything used to augment or change the interaction is a third party. It sounds silly, but its the basics of the relationship. If you write an app or a webpage that is somehow used to change the experience (IE a wiki or a char gen app), that resource becomes third party, even though you wrote it. Using notes/maps etc from your comp that arent actually a part of the game-client interaction is the same basic premise, the only real difference being the level of technical expertise needed to make it work.

Asking for a map to have better functionality is not dumbing down anyone or anything. Its a request to consolidate a player's efforts and to make an existing aspect of the game function better than it does currently. I would like to NOT have to alt-tab out of the game whenever I want/need to reference my map notes, since the map is already right there in the game. There is no reason a player should have to memorize every single dot on the map; its not reasonable or practical, At some point, you will have to refer to some notes. No reason why those notes shouldnt be right there in the game. Since you would have to uncover the point in order to pin it, you have already done the legwork. Absolutely no reason why you should not be allowed to make a foot note about it for the next time you come through, whether on the same toon or a different one, YOU made the effort already.

varusso
05-27-2011, 11:40 AM
There may be no reason to not allow this - but I think they have more important things to work on/fix. This is really not an issue to complain about.

"Devs have to put effort into it' is never a good excuse. Devs have to put effort into ANY change in the game, and they have different teams for different aspects. Working on additional map functionality doesnt prevent them from fixing bugs; its a different team. It doesnt prevent them from playtesting new content or designing new dungeons. And a simple functionality change like this would benefit any new content they add.

Bargol
05-27-2011, 11:41 AM
When in game click on the myddo link, then user CP, you can add links to open outside web addresses directly in game. Go to ddowiki.com and link the maps for the areas you want. So instead of using the greyed out / blacked out map, use the clear labeled ddowiki maps. Problem solved and requires no developer time.

varusso
05-27-2011, 11:45 AM
When in game click on the myddo link, then user CP, you can add links to open outside web addresses directly in game. Go to ddowiki.com and link the maps for the areas you want. So instead of using the greyed out / blacked out map, use the clear labeled ddowiki maps. Problem solved and requires no developer time.

The web-browser interface also blocks out 75% of the screen and must be called-up/dismissed each time. Not to mention it loads HORRIBLY slow compared to a direct web-browse out of game. The active cursor also switches out of the playfield and into the browser. Much simpler and effective to have a map that you fill in yourself and points of interest you can read by mousing over them -- rather like the map icons you can mouse over and read currently.

And even though you are using the in-game browser to surf to your resources, they are still third party resources.

Musouka
05-27-2011, 08:42 PM
Screenshot, upload image to your myDDO, then click myDDO and you stay within DDO limits.

All I see here is, 'I want I want I want,' but no room for alternatives.

So what if they are third party?

I will never agree to this suggestion, as I do not need to, and will strongly oppose it.

varusso
05-27-2011, 08:50 PM
I have also already explained why using the in-game browser is not a feasible solution. You can stamp your feet and throw a tantrum over it all you want. Doesnt change the fact that improvements to the map interface would be a positive change.

Hafeal
05-27-2011, 09:05 PM
I will state that I support this idea and it is FAR from the first time it has been brought up.

Varusso, welcome to the world of people arguing for arguing's sake.

Absolutely, for game convenience, efficiency and enjoyment, the maps for explorer should be upgraded in game through the existing map interface.

varusso
05-27-2011, 09:36 PM
Varusso, welcome to the world of people arguing for arguing's sake.


*shrug* I'm used to it, been married for some time now :D

donfilibuster
05-28-2011, 12:47 AM
Agree there's no point in having the map reset after each visit.
Though not sure cartography is a skill mercenary heroes carry, let alone in X'endrik.

In PnP you had to take knowledge:geography or some other knowledge skill as appropiate.
In 2e there was also 'direction sense' as a non-weapon proficiency.

So far i manually added the links to the maps in ddowiki to the links bar in myddo to use in the in-game browser.

Talias006
05-28-2011, 08:45 AM
Absolutely no reason why you should not be allowed to make a foot note about it for the next time you come through, whether on the same toon or a different one, YOU made the effort already.

Snipped. I would agree to having the FoW replacing the uncharted blackness from a character that put in the effort to uncover focal points (either rare mobs or explorers) would be a good idea, as the idea is that the CHARACTER has been there to see those points of interest. Imho it would be a good fit for the people that nitpick on things being "dumbed down" and for the crowd that wants increased functionality from their maps. Discussion?

rrtemplin
05-28-2011, 02:06 PM
I am perfectly fine with how this works currently. I run most of them enough to know them. Put me in a quest and i am lost. Put me in a Slayer area, i can lead around most of them with out thinking about it (until you ask me where the quest are in that zone). Its just like a quest. You learn it. Its working fine.

So please don't try to fix slayer areas, unless your going to add favor rewards for each level of kills, leave the areas alone.

KillEveryone
05-28-2011, 02:37 PM
I would also like to see map improvements.

I've been in orchard plenty of times to know the area and have a path for all rares when I'm farming taps but I still use the map and would like to make notes.

I know the desert well and can get to the quests but I still use the map and would like to make notes.

I know the Vale and where the rares are but I still use the map and would like to make notes.

I'd like to see map improvements so that when I'm in Coal Chamber, if I get turned around, I can look at the map and know where I'm at. As it is, if I'm above or below where I need to be, I don't really know until I either climb all the way to the top or just drop all the way down and start the climb over.

There are several quests where the paths over lap because you are above or below them and I'd like the map to reflect this instead of just looking like I'm at a 4 way intersection.

I already have a spiral notebook for stuff, I don't need to have some loose papers that don't fit in that notebook.

I've tried to print those maps out. It is way to small. I've tried to have a few printer shops print them out but they are worried about copy write so they don't want to print them out.

Even if I can't make notes, I'd still like to get rid of the black after I've been in that area. I have no problems with fog of war, it is the black part that I don't like to see.



Now another way to approach this would be to think about creating a new reward for in game FAVOR. Explorers Guild Favor (semi random name). It could apply to character or to account on a server. Once you achieve that level of reward, Native Guides appear right inside the Zone entrance, and will only engage in dialog if your favor has met the requirement. They can port you directly to the spot outside any dungeon/quest entrance in that zone. (The same spot you appear in if you step out the quest entrance.)

It could be a single total favor benchmark (3000 for example) or pegged to areas and higher favor totals, or to having maxed out all of the categories in the zone. All Explorers, all Rares and topped off on Kills. You know the zone, perhaps too well. I know many times out in the vale, with characters who had topped it all off, (and before renown existed) many times the dash to the quest was run to avoid any delays or melee and loss of HP/SP along the way. The few trogs/spiders/bezhikra were all just considered nuisances along the run. Much like the person in GH who ports you nearer the three top quests, this could be a nice feature to work for and would really be more appealing as an account award, much like 32 point builds, etc.

I also like this idea.