PDA

View Full Version : Give Spell slots the ability to hold lower level spells



stille_nacht
05-27-2011, 08:36 AM
Makes logical sense, after all, if you could memorize meteor swarm, then why cant you memorize, say acid rain instead?

i feel like this would give casters a little more flexibility (especially sorc), and would really be gamebreaking... (if it was, then you really need to fix lower level spells :P), after all, you are giving up higher lv spells for lower level ones ...


also, it would appear that this is exactly how PnP is supposed to work...its not "deviating more

Actually it brings it back to 3.5 D&D which this game is supposed to be based on.

Under 3.5 rules they explicitly say you can do exactly what the OP has asked for (although once slotted into a higher slot it should consume the higher slot amount of SP but be cast as if it was it original spell level for all other purposes)

From the d20srd.org:

Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Silverwren
05-27-2011, 10:16 AM
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Can you clarify your point, please?

stille_nacht
05-27-2011, 10:17 AM
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Can you clarify your point, please?

i want to be able to slot, say, firewall, into any higher level slot

somenewnoob
05-27-2011, 10:21 AM
Though this isn't a bad idea, I think it would move the game farther from what D&D is supposed to be. In the pnp game (I KNOW this is not pnp) you get to memorize a certain number of spells per level (at least back when this old geezer played 2nd ed, not sure with that confangled new game you whippersnappers are playing nowadays!)

Though I like the idea, because I think it would be useful, I don't think it would be a change that should be made.

Gkar
05-27-2011, 10:23 AM
Though this isn't a bad idea, I think it would move the game farther from what D&D is supposed to be. In the pnp game (I KNOW this is not pnp) you get to memorize a certain number of spells per level (at least back when this old geezer played 2nd ed, not sure with that confangled new game you whippersnappers are playing nowadays!)

Though I like the idea, because I think it would be useful, I don't think it would be a change that should be made.

Actually it brings it back to 3.5 D&D which this game is supposed to be based on.

Under 3.5 rules they explicitly say you can do exactly what the OP has asked for (although once slotted into a higher slot it should consume the higher slot amount of SP but be cast as if it was it original spell level for all other purposes)

From the d20srd.org:

Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

FuzzyDuck81
05-27-2011, 10:24 AM
Though this isn't a bad idea, I think it would move the game farther from what D&D is supposed to be. In the pnp game (I KNOW this is not pnp) you get to memorize a certain number of spells per level (at least back when this old geezer played 2nd ed, not sure with that confangled new game you whippersnappers are playing nowadays!)

Though I like the idea, because I think it would be useful, I don't think it would be a change that should be made.

In 3.0/3.5 edition PnP D&D thats actually how the metamagic feats worked - it'd add X to the level of the spell & would take up a slot at the newly adjusted level.

SilkofDrasnia
05-27-2011, 10:25 AM
thats not really how dnd is suppose to work granted ur not even suppose to have sp tho lol

/not signed

Gkar
05-27-2011, 10:27 AM
thats not really how dnd is suppose to work granted ur not even suppose to have sp tho lol

/not signed

As I've already quoted above, that IS how it is supposed to work. He's asking for something right out of the 3.5 rulebook.

Oh, and SP is one of the allowed options as well, it's from one of the class specific books. Here it is from the srd: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

licho
05-27-2011, 10:28 AM
/Signed.

The point of this is that some levels are quite crowded with spell which i really like to have.
As long as somebody lose more powerful spells from higher level for less powerfull spells from level spells its ok. If he like, he get. Its a kind of buff which do not add power, but rather make gameplay funnier.

Maybe it could work with some auto heighten metamagic.
Like, i can kick web from level 2 to 5 so it will count as heighten to level 5.

BTW: In PnP you can apply metamagic to low level spells and memorized them as high level (for example Max scorching ray in lv5 slot), also comparisons to PnP are pointless.

SilkofDrasnia
05-27-2011, 10:34 AM
As I've already quoted above, that IS how it is supposed to work. He's asking for something right out of the 3.5 rulebook.

Oh, and SP is one of the allowed options as well, it's from one of the class specific books. Here it is from the srd: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

not evryone plays the 3.5e and casters are good enough as is dont you think. one of the main reasons there so many diffs from pnp is that 3.5 doesn't translate well to a mmo. plus i never liked that variant

but anyhoot i still say /not signed casters are OP as it is but like i mentioned in my first post ddo is deviated from pnp already

somenewnoob
05-27-2011, 10:37 AM
In 3.0/3.5 edition PnP D&D thats actually how the metamagic feats worked - it'd add X to the level of the spell & would take up a slot at the newly adjusted level.

Well hell, /signed then! lol

(old man, never played past 2nd ed!)

There are lots of spells at certain levels I'd like to have too!

licho
05-27-2011, 10:39 AM
not evrytone plays the 3.5e and casters are good enough as is dont you think. one of the main reasons there so many diffs from pnp is that 3.5 doesn't translate well to a mmo

Yes, PnP cant be translate "as is" to MMO.
Also there is already so much changes in DDO (most of them for good), than any "but in PnP..." argument deserves only polite smile.

However this idea is good by itself. After all its quite random that one spell is at lv 2 not lv 3.
Adding flexibility and options makes game better in most cases.

SilkofDrasnia
05-27-2011, 10:43 AM
Yes, PnP cant be translate "as is" to MMO.
Also there is already so much changes in DDO (most of them for good), than any "but in PnP..." argument deserves only polite smile.

However this idea is good by itself. After all its quite random that one spell is at lv 2 not lv 3.
Adding flexibility and options makes game better in most cases.

i agree the in pnp argument deserves only polite smiles n that goes both ways ...lol

AcesWylde
05-27-2011, 10:57 AM
not evryone plays the 3.5e and casters are good enough as is dont you think. one of the main reasons there so many diffs from pnp is that 3.5 doesn't translate well to a mmo. plus i never liked that variant

but anyhoot i still say /not signed casters are OP as it is but like i mentioned in my first post ddo is deviated from pnp already

DDO is based on 3.5 D&D, and although not all D&D rules translate well to DDO, this one would translate to DDO just fine. And this would not make casters more over powered, but simply add more versatility.

However, that being said...

/not signed

not due to and rules/game play objections, but quite simply the time it would take to recode everything could be better spent on other things

Thrudh
05-27-2011, 11:03 AM
No... This takes away a huge advantage wizards have over sorcs.

They FINALLY have enough spells where choosing them actually requires some thought..

This change goes through, every caster will have the exact same spells.

They need to release MORE spells so that the higher level slots are a tough choice too.

Alternative
05-27-2011, 11:16 AM
I'm playing a wizard and /SIGNED don't care if that benefits sorcs more. As a PM I can't slot all needed lvl4 spells (death aura and neg energy burst both lvl4 doh!) and have junk at levels 5 and 8.

Gkar
05-27-2011, 11:27 AM
not evryone plays the 3.5e and casters are good enough as is dont you think. one of the main reasons there so many diffs from pnp is that 3.5 doesn't translate well to a mmo. plus i never liked that variant

but anyhoot i still say /not signed casters are OP as it is but like i mentioned in my first post ddo is deviated from pnp already

It doesn't matter that not everyone plays 3.5, DDO is a 3.5 license and is supposed to be based on 3.5 rules. Thus, DDO hasn't broken PnP rules in this area.

hityawithastick
05-27-2011, 11:34 AM
not evryone plays the 3.5e and casters are good enough as is dont you think. one of the main reasons there so many diffs from pnp is that 3.5 doesn't translate well to a mmo. plus i never liked that variant

but anyhoot i still say /not signed casters are OP as it is but like i mentioned in my first post ddo is deviated from pnp already

Why are casters OP? How would this make them more so?

I am ambivalent about this issue...as a PM I never seem to need more than 3 spells in the all-important level 4 slot (FireShield, Death Aura, NEB), which leaves me with two slots for whatever. If there was any level I felt stuck on it would be level 6, but really I could take this change or leave it.

Thrudh
05-27-2011, 11:42 AM
I'm playing a wizard and /SIGNED don't care if that benefits sorcs more. As a PM I can't slot all needed lvl4 spells (death aura and neg energy burst both lvl4 doh!) and have junk at levels 5 and 8.

Choosing your spells should require hard choices, even for wizards...

They should add more good 5th and 8th level spells to make those choices hard too... Not set up a system that lets every single caster get every good spell.

andbr22
05-27-2011, 11:46 AM
I think changes should go other way:
- Ok give us some more or less multiple level of spell slot (like slots for lv 1-3, 4-6, 7-9)
- But in this same time highly reduce availble spell slots for wizards and clerics (clerics don't need to memo healing spells)...

What would this give:
- maybe finnaly people start to think about spells to choose for mission (not 1 or 2 swiches per whole day of gaming)
- maybe people start to swap spells during quest.
- It would be more PnPish -> ok you could choose for every slot diffrent spell but then you could use it only once per day... So wizards/clerics got to be prepared for quests, but during resting they could always swap spells. This system poorly swaped from PnP to DDO (it made that Wiz and Sorc almost don't differ betwen themselves (Sorcers couldn't swap spells but on other hand they always got entrance to all their triks availble).
- Wizards/clerics will have to start thinking about spell choise, and won't be walking "bags of triks".
- Melee don't have even one third of triks availble to any caster...
- It would properly implement spontaneus spellcasting clerics (and druids in future)...

JuBzzz
05-27-2011, 11:50 AM
this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm

"...Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school..."

and this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

"...Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school..."

;)

Chai
05-27-2011, 12:02 PM
Waits for the obligatory "PnP is irrelevant to DDO" arguement.

/signed.

I would also like to see us be able to program individual spells with metas on or off rather than it being an all or nothing feat, which also exists in PnP. I can choose which spells to spend more points on to make more powerful, or not, on a spell by spell basis.

game5551
05-27-2011, 12:19 PM
Choosing your spells should require hard choices, even for wizards...

They should add more good 5th and 8th level spells to make those choices hard too... Not set up a system that lets every single caster get every good spell.

I agree with this as is in DDO. I do think that any spells should be able to be slotted in a higher level slot. You are giving up a higher level spell that is supposedly more powerful for a supposedly weaker spell. This doesn't quite work as there are a few levels of blah spells, and the higher level spells aren't always actually more powerful. The solution would be to strengthen the existing spells, or make new, more powerful, higher level spells.

Before someone yells at me that spellcasters are already overpowered, they dont need more spells: they are overpowered or not becuase they spam a certain small number of spells. Giving them more choice wont in itself be overpowering (and I think acid sorcs really suffer in the high level spell department), but each new spell seems to be a balancing nightmare.

So this is what I see:
1) Implementing as is is problematic because you are essentially getting something for free, you actually arent giving up anything because there isnt much worthwhile to take
2) Coding nightmare?
3) Making it so their is a hard choice of what to give up would mean more spells, more code, more balancing issues

Remember, in 3.5E to heighten a spell for a wizard, (for example web to a 9th level slot) you memorize web in a 9th level slot and get to cast it... once. 3.5E gets over any balancing issues by not allowing casters to spam certain spells. If you really like firewall, great, you can cast it at most 6 times (or so, forget how spell progression works exactly) then you have to move on to other spells, and you get no other 4th level spells.

Having said that, I think the developers owe us more high level acid spells.

cwfergtx
05-27-2011, 12:27 PM
Spell Slots
A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

However, if you did not have the score to cast higher level spells you did not get those spots till the score was raised to meet the requirements. You can not fill level 9 spell slots with level 5 spells if your ability score was not high enough to have the spots.

Malison
05-27-2011, 12:51 PM
Completely /signed. It makes no sense that you can only mem a spell of a certain power level and not anything weaker than it.

Gkar
05-27-2011, 12:54 PM
However, if you did not have the score to cast higher level spells you did not get those spots till the score was raised to meet the requirements. You can not fill level 9 spell slots with level 5 spells if your ability score was not high enough to have the spots.

Huh? Thats the opposite of what the rule says.

fuzzy1guy
05-27-2011, 01:00 PM
/signed

Still way too many completely useless spells even after our (ha) spell pass.

And they all cluster into the same levels as well. While other levels have serious competition for useful spells.

Wouldnt solve the useless spell problem. But would help a little.



Make it cost the higher slot's base cost. If we wanna do it. We pay for it. Fair is fair.


Right now all my casters have an extra bar at the bottom of the useless spells i'll never use.. but couldnt pick anything useful for the slot.
At least 4-6 of them always. The least useless spells of the useless lot at that level.

Cloista
05-27-2011, 01:20 PM
How about doing it this way?

Metamagic Feat: Heighten
Allows you to cast a spell at a higher spell level. The spell's spellpoint cost increases and it takes up a spell slot of the new spell level, and is cast at that level for the purposes of saves.

e.g.

Hypnotise - 1st level spell. Base DC 11 (10 + spell level), SP cost: 4 sp Slot: 1st level spell slot.
Hypnotise - 5th level spell. Base DC 15 (10 + spell level), SP cost: 29 sp Slot: 5th level spell slot.
Hypnotise - 9th level spell. Base DC 19 (10 + spell level), SP cost: 49 sp Slot: 9th level spell slot.


Basically, it works as an individual metamagic for that spell (theoretically you could have it slotted in every spell level, each with individual cooldowns/DCs). Theoretically you could do this with all metamagics (Empower raises it 1 level, Maximise 2, etc.) though that would make it impossible to Metamagic 9th level spells, and significantly restrict metamagicing higher level spells, dramatically weakening them, which would not be a good idea, though with the slot contention issue, I could see it working for Heighten. This would very much be in the spirit of PnP 3.5 rules too, as has been previously stated.

Bobthesponge
05-27-2011, 01:29 PM
/not signed

Casters are not powerful enough already? If there ever was a decision to change this it should be so low on the priorites list that it would be addressed sometime in 2027. Casters are fine as they are and making choices as to which spell to slot is part of the limitations the game puts on casters so they actually have some.

Illiain
05-27-2011, 01:30 PM
not evryone plays the 3.5e


But everyone that plays DDO is technically playing 3.5. It's a heavily houseruled version, but it's still based on 3.5 and not 1st, 2nd, 3.0, Pathfinder or 4E.

Dysmetria
05-27-2011, 02:35 PM
I would also like to see us be able to program individual spells with metas on or off rather than it being an all or nothing feat, which also exists in PnP. I can choose which spells to spend more points on to make more powerful, or not, on a spell by spell basis.You can choose which spells to use which metas on now. It doesn't cost any SP to turn them on or off.

Calebro
05-27-2011, 02:38 PM
Slotting lower level spells into higher level slots is long overdue.
/signed

Angelus_dead
05-27-2011, 02:40 PM
You can choose which spells to use which metas on now. It doesn't cost any SP to turn them on or off.
It doesn't cost spellpoints, but it does cost TIME.

Calebro
05-27-2011, 02:43 PM
You can choose which spells to use which metas on now. It doesn't cost any SP to turn them on or off.

His point isn't about the ability to turn them on and off. His point is that they should be hard coded that way.
You may always want to cast a maximized empowered blade barrier.
You may want to always cast a healing empowered mass cure crit.
You shouldn't have to hit 3 hotkeys to change the metas between them. They should be set for you if you want them to be.
And before anyone goes off about "that's not how it's supposed to work", that's exactly how it's supposed to work. You add metas to your spells when you memorize them, not when you cast them. So not only would it be an advantage to players because of less micromanaging, but it would also be closer to the true rules.

....closer to the true rules for Wizards and Clerics
... for FvSs and Sorcs it would be somewhere in between.

BoBo2020
05-27-2011, 02:46 PM
/double signed in ink!

Dysmetria
05-27-2011, 02:49 PM
His point isn't about the ability to turn them on and off. His point is that they should be hard coded that way.
You may always want to cast a maximized empowered blade barrier.
You may want to always cast a healing empowered mass cure crit.
You shouldn't have to hit 3 hotkeys to change the metas between them. They should be set for you if you want them to be.
And before anyone goes off about "that's not how it's supposed to work", that's exactly how it's supposed to work. You ad metas to your spells when you memorize them, not when you cast them. So not only would it be an advantage to players because of less micromanaging, but it would also be closer to the true rules.You may not always want to cast a maximized empowered blade barrier, or an empowered mass cure crit, in fact you you may only have enough sp left for either one of them without those metas.

In the event that casting them without the metas is the only thing that will save you and/or your party and get you to the next shrine, having the ability to turn those metas off instead of them being stuck on is vital.

I like having the versatility to micromanage.

danielost
05-27-2011, 02:53 PM
i think if this is done it should only be the wizard class that gets the extra spells, due to the fact that they are the most flexible and actually have to earn their spells. everyone else gets their spells automatic or in the case of the sor. who gets to cast their spells faster and they get more spell points.

Calebro
05-27-2011, 02:53 PM
We're getting off topic. If we want to debate the pros and cons of individually meta'd spells we should start another thread.


i think if this is done it should only be the wizard class that gets the extra spells, due to the fact that they are the most flexible and actually have to earn their spells. everyone else gets their spells automatic or in the case of the sor. who gets to cast their spells faster and they get more spell points.


But it isn't only an option for wizards.
If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.

Alexandryte
05-27-2011, 05:36 PM
This would be interesting.

/signed

Personally I dislike the fact that there are no major evocation spells above LVL 7 unless you are fire or ice (and even then theres only 1-2). Theres no interesting buffs......just instant death....or some CC. Some of the lower tiers are too densely populated and this would at the very least give the option.

SilkofDrasnia
05-27-2011, 08:05 PM
But everyone that plays DDO is technically playing 3.5. It's a heavily houseruled version, but it's still based on 3.5 and not 1st, 2nd, 3.0, Pathfinder or 4E.

perhaps but its a modified 3.5e. now im not gonna quote every single person that replied to me so will try to explain all in this post.
my posts mainly meant that i don't agree with the change for various reasons

1: it will make caster even more overpowered. when i say overpowered i mean in the sense that Thrudh was saying in post #19 "Choosing your spells should require hard choices, even for wizards...

They should add more good 5th and 8th level spells to make those choices hard too... Not set up a system that lets every single caster get every good spell." Hope this answers hityawithastick to what i meant .

2: to Gkar and Illiain im not arguing with you about that as you a correct in your statements , im simply saying i don't agree because like other rules that haven't been allowed for various reason i think this one shouldn't either, mainly for balance reasons

lastly i mentioned that ddo more or less follows pnp not as an argument for against but only to show i realize it could go either way and any arguments of "but in pnp you can or cant" don't really apply. so in effect it doesn't really matter if this is based on 3.5e or not as its house-rules go as previous mentioned

so i will end saying if this does go thru i wont die i, wont howl doom, i was just expressing my opinion.

i will also say i don't appreciate the neg rep i received for "having an opinion that's different" from yours (whomever gave it ) and i reported this as i posted nothing warranting any

Chai
05-27-2011, 08:21 PM
lastly i mentioned that ddo more or less follows pnp not as an argument for against but only to show i realize it could go either way and any arguments of "but in pnp you can or cant" don't really apply.

It sure does apply. I wonder what the demographic is for people who are attracted to this game due to the sheer fact that it is based on D&D -and- 3.5. Most of us old schoolers realize that the translation will not be literal, but the spirit of D&D is maintained or not maintained based on instituting game mechanics which mirror the PnP game in spirit, even if they do not do so word for word. I see the "PnP is irrelevant to DDO" arguement waged quite often, and i disagree with it every time. It certainly is relevant.

Tunst
05-27-2011, 08:32 PM
/signed

Doxmaster
05-28-2011, 01:21 PM
If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.

No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.


In DDO, it may be permanent, on the other hand. In PNP it merely drains from a higher level slot to get a casting in.

Scraap
05-28-2011, 01:54 PM
Could make for some interesting choices if they reverted to SRD for that and the feats.

"So do you want an Extended 4th, or a 5th level spell?" (effectively sets extend cap at 8th level spells barring Epic levels)
"An Empowered 4th, or a 6th?" (sets empower cap at 7th levels)
"A Maximized, or 7th?" (sets maximize cap at 6th levels)
"A quickened, or 8th?" (sets quickened cap at 5th levels)
"A max+empowered 4th, or a 9th?"
"Just how far do you want to up your DC there with Heighten?" (Sets it to x level. Minimum when you get it, max 9, and by it'sself approaches what the OP asked for, though with a tradeoff.)

*values taken from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

Rian
05-29-2011, 05:02 AM
No... This takes away a huge advantage wizards have over sorcs.

They FINALLY have enough spells where choosing them actually requires some thought..

This change goes through, every caster will have the exact same spells.

They need to release MORE spells so that the higher level slots are a tough choice too.


There's no place a sorcerer can go that a wizard that's built correctly can't do, if not better.
Wizards already have a huge advantage over sorcerers, sorc advantages are diminishing quickly, savants were just a duct tape fix imo, it's nice, but not quite there yet.

on to the main topic.

/signed
I like this idea, normally I find myself with spells I just don't use, they're just place holders really.
With this option I could all the spells I WANT.
The rules are already there, it's useful and it benefits many.
In the past I've only really used energy drain and wail, I guess I could take PWK as a emergency "ZOMG THIS MUST DIE" button, but I'd rather have something more convenient...like putting reconstruct in there :D

and could this apply to rangers to? 4 slots with only 4 spells to pick from for lvl 4 spells just seems depressing to me.

MindCake
05-29-2011, 05:33 AM
"A quickened, or 8th?" (sets quickened cap at 5th levels)

*values taken from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm
Except quicken in PnP is huge, and in DDO not so much.




But it isn't only an option for wizards.
If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.
No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.
Uh, no?
PnP spontaneous casters do operate by spells known per level system (Notice the "spells known" table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#tableTheSorcerer)). They pick spells at level ups, and have very limited options to change them later. If a sorc learned 1st level spell in level 8 spells known slot, they'd need to be level 22 before they could swap it. (Provided they used the level 21 feat to get a level 10 spell slot.)

Bodic
05-29-2011, 05:51 AM
it goes like this

how many lvl8 wiz spell are there 12
how many lvl8 spell slots do wiz have 5
how many useful lvl8 spell are there that must take a slot 2-3

So /signed

Rodasch
05-29-2011, 06:36 AM
No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.


In DDO, it may be permanent, on the other hand. In PNP it merely drains from a higher level slot to get a casting in.

You have this a little mixed up. What you are talking about is already handled by the spell point system and being able to cast any of your spells known as many times as you want as long as you have spell points.

He is absolutely correct in stating that spells known would be altered, putting a lower level spell in your higher level known slot permanently in order to do what the op is asking for.

You have to look at it all for what it is. Sorcerer spells list is exactly the "spells known" list, while "spells per day" is handled for all spellcasting classes by our spell point bar and is much more flexible and forgiving than PnP.

Doxmaster
05-29-2011, 02:20 PM
Except quicken in PnP is huge, and in DDO not so much.


Uh, no?
PnP spontaneous casters do operate by spells known per level system (Notice the "spells known" table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#tableTheSorcerer)). They pick spells at level ups, and have very limited options to change them later. If a sorc learned 1st level spell in level 8 spells known slot, they'd need to be level 22 before they could swap it. (Provided they used the level 21 feat to get a level 10 spell slot.)

Alright, to clarify my position, I will try to restate this using a slightly more clear method. In this discussion I am talking about PnP as DDo WILL require sorcerers to permanently change their spells known list to accommodate casting lower level spells in higher level spell slots. Metamagic feats are not included in this discussion.
~-In PnP-~
Spells per spell level (typically called spell slots)= Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q7, Q8, Q9, QX
Spells known per level (sorcerer and similar casters only)=(#)W

A sorcerer who wishes to use and spell from W may, in Pen and Paper as per 3.5 rules, use a ‘spell slot’ or Q of equal or greater value to the spells natural level. To use magic missile, a Q1 spell, he must expend a spell slot from Q1, Q2, or any greater spell slot. Using magic missile in a Q9 spell slot confers no benefit other than allowing the sorcerer to cast the spell at a time which said sorcerer might not have any Q1/spells slots remaining. Should the sorcerer use a Q9 spell slot to cast Sleep, a Q1 spell, the DC would not be increased due to the spell being of a higher level. In all ways, casting a spell in a higher level Q due to this system is identical to casting the spell in its natural spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm][/url]
Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Thus
. If a sorc learned 1st level spell in level 8 spells known slot, they'd need to be level 22 before they could swap it. (Provided they used the level 21 feat to get a level 10 spell slot.) does not have an opportunity to happen at all unless the sorcerer SPECIFICALLY wishes to learn that spell, magic missile in our case, and can only learn it at a time when he is learning 8th level spells. Should another sorcerer have magic missile among W, his spells known list, that second sorcerer may freely cast magic missile, a Q1 spell, in a Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q7, Q8 or Q9.

Here are forum topics that support my view:
~-EN WORLD-~
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/187283-can-sorcerer-use-higher-level-slot-cast-lower-level-spell.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/245151-cast-spell-using-higher-level-slot.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/78490-spontaneous-casters-using-higher-level-slots-cast-lower-level-spells.html
~-OTHER-~
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1750695.html
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872258/Sorcerers_Guide._Your_help_wanted.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/goodRecommendedMetamagicFeatsForMySorcerer

revelant information from that link] This is a bad reason to go for metamagic. You can already just use a 2nd-level slot to cast a 1st-level spell, so in your example, you should just cast Magic Missile using your 1st-level slot, and then if you need True Strike later, cast it using a 2nd-level slot.
For this reason, I tend to like the Heighten Magic mm feat for sorcerers, since, if you're going to be burning a higher-level slot for a spell, you might as well get the bonus to the save DC out of it.



True Strike
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.
Focus
A small wooden replica of an archery target.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm][/url]
Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.


Just so we are all on the same page, this is my post you are responding to:

No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.


In DDO, it may be permanent, on the other hand. In PNP it merely drains from a higher level slot to get a casting in.
I will now color code it to make matters even more clear.

No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.

In DDO, it may be permanent, on the other hand. In PNP it merely drains from a higher level slot to get a casting in.
I was responding to this post:

We're getting off topic. If we want to debate the pros and cons of individually meta'd spells we should start another thread.




But it isn't only an option for wizards.
If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.
I was talking about PnP the whole time. Also, the last edit to my post was long before any replies were posted.

Rodasch
05-29-2011, 04:00 PM
You're still mixing up spells per day with spells known.

Spells you can cast per day (spell slots which you exhaust and thus would need to cast magic missiles as a 3rd level spell instead of a first level if you ran out of first level spells for the day) is handled by your spell point bar. You can cast any spell in your "spells known" list as many times as you have spell points to cast. This ALREADY makes the same (and even BETTER) effect as what you are claiming to ask for.

You can effectively use ALL of your "Spells per day" to cast first level spells, getting far more than 1 for 1 return on the swap when not casting the higher level spells.

-------------

Asking to swap a spell from your repertoire of 3rd level (or whatever) spells known (that list you see when you hit the "spells" tab on your character sheet) for a lower level spell is a permanent swap of known and accessible spells, and is quite permanent (well, in ddo you can change it every 3 days for some plat). There is only marginal precedent for doing this in PnP, and most of that is house rules or supplemental variant rules.

Read what I'm telling you carefully, Doxmaster. if you still disagree with me, then read it again and draw yourself a chart or map or something, because I am 100% correct here. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Spells per day table is replaced by your spell point bar, spell level slots are replaced by spell point cost. Your spell list on your character sheet is your spells known, not spells per day.

While we're on the topic, why are Sorcerers shorted spells known?
At level 20 we are supposed to have 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3, not 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3. We should have one more first and second level spell in our list of known spells at 20th level.

Doxmaster
05-29-2011, 04:57 PM
You're still mixing up spells per day with spells known.

Read what I'm telling you carefully, Doxmaster. if you still disagree with me, then read it again and draw yourself a chart or map or something, because I am 100% correct here. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Spells per day table is replaced by your spell point bar, spell level slots are replaced by spell point cost. Your spell list on your character sheet is your spells known, not spells per day.


I…I cant even. Did you actually read my post?

Breaking your post apart. Gimme a sec. Before I post though, please clarify what you are talking about. DDo or Pen and Paper.

MindCake
05-29-2011, 06:02 PM

I…I cant even. Did you actually read my post?

Breaking your post apart. Gimme a sec. Before I post though, please clarify what you are talking about. DDo or Pen and Paper.
Did you even read Rodasch's post?
You're still mixing up spells known and spells per day.


Thus does not have an opportunity to happen at all unless the sorcerer SPECIFICALLY wishes to learn that spell, magic missile in our case, and can only learn it at a time when he is learning 8th level spells.
This is the very case this thread is about - increasing the flexibility of spell seletion, by letting us learn/prepare lower level spells treating them as if they were higher level. Eg. for spontaneous casters getting another 1 st level spell at a time you usually get a 6th level spell, and for non spontaneous caster preparing a lower level spell in higher level slot. These options don't currently exist in DDO. They do exist in PnP, and are possible for non-spontaneous casters (though, they'd rather load up metamagics than just use higher slots), and also possible, but severely expensive, and pretty much permanent for spontaneous casters.

The thing you're discussing, that is casting lower level spells using higher level slots, is already present in DDO. You can empty your blue bar casting nothing but magic missiles, this means you're free to use up your 2nd level casting powers on 1st level spells, etc. Since it's already present, there's no reason to introduce it. So, quite obviously, this thread is not asking for it to be implemented.

Doxmaster
05-29-2011, 07:24 PM
The problem is...I was talking about Pen and Paper. I had always been talking about Pen and Paper, standard rules. I even said I was talking about Pen and paper at least...5 times, give or take. We werent talking about the SP rule variation or DDo at the time you guys started quoting me.

Its almost as if you guys did not read what I was quoting and correcting...then didnt read I was talking about pen and paper (included several times in each post actually) and then didnt read me telling you we had things confused and I was not talking about DDo.

It makes me wonder if you missed me agreeing about how things would probably work in DDo too...I doubt you even know my name, actually.

Well...my posts are there above us. Scroll up if ya need to.

Malison
05-29-2011, 07:36 PM
No, the problem is that you're talking about one thing that is true, and they're talking about a different thing that is true. Both are talking about Pnp.

Doxmaster's argument:
A sorcerer who knows magic missile as a 1st level spell may cast it using an 8th level spell per day, or any other level.

In DDO, this flexibility is covered by the use of an SP bar.

Calebro's argument:
A sorcerer learning a new 8th level spell who wants to learn magic missile may learn it in an 8th level slot. It gives him no benefit over learning it as a 1st level spell.

In DDO, this flexibility does not exist, and should.

Doxmaster
05-29-2011, 07:47 PM
No, the problem is that you're talking about one thing that is true, and they're talking about a different thing that is true. Both are talking about Pnp.

Doxmaster's argument:
A sorcerer who knows magic missile as a 1st level spell may cast it using an 8th level spell per day, or any other level.

In DDO, this flexibility is covered by the use of an SP bar.

Calebro's argument:
A sorcerer learning a new 8th level spell who wants to learn magic missile may learn it in an 8th level slot. It gives him no benefit over learning it as a 1st level spell.

In DDO, this flexibility does not exist, and should.
This is what I have been talking about this whole time.
l
\/

If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.
^
l
This. This is what I've been talking about this whole time. There are no arguments on how it should be done, whether it should be done or anything else like that. Calebro was wrong, or worded that wrong. I corrected him. No idea how you guys got involved, or what you are talking about, honestly.

It seems you still havent read my posts. Here, I'll make it simple:
I am ONLY talking about PnP. For our purposes, DDo doesnt even exist in my eyes. I have never heard of it.

Sorcerers are spellcasters. The Pen and Paper rules state spellcasters can do this thing. Sorcerers can therefor do this thing. Simple as that.

MsEricka
05-29-2011, 08:53 PM
/signed

danielost
05-29-2011, 09:32 PM
i think the point the op is trying to make is if you have all of your first lvl spell slots filled with useful spells but you still want to use more of them. then use them at a higher lvl spell slot where you may have spells that you dont want to use.

rayworks
05-29-2011, 09:50 PM
I'd like to see us able to memorize spells based on the total number of spell levels. For instance, if your cleric can mem 3 1st, 2 2nd, and 1 3rd, he has a total of 10 spell levels. He could, then, memorize say 5 1sts if he used one of the 2nds to add 2 1sts. He would then have 5 spell levels left.

But you could not memorize 2 3rds by using this system. You could only memorize spells lower than your max level allows.

karnokvolrath
05-29-2011, 10:56 PM
I actually really like this idea.

I would take a 5th or 6th level slot and designate it a 4th level spell.

On a side note, perhaps the problem is that there are more good 4th level spells then 5th and 6th level ones. Obviously that is up for debate person to person but i would personally always do this.

*****spoiler, sorry if i ramble******

Spells that IMO are VERY useful that cannot affectively be scroll cast.

4th level "must haves" --

1. Firewall - Self Explanatory
2. Fireshield - IMO one of the best spells in the game, offers defence and offence, and versatility (fire,cold)
3. Stoneskin - Can be Scrolled but not as affective and casting time is an issue as well.
4. Death Aura - A Must fore Palemasters, Still Decent for Sorcs.
5. Negative Energy Burst - A must for palemasters, most likely left off every sorc due to to many other great spells.
6. Enveneration - At mid levels this spell can have a massive affect on saving thows.
7. Dimension Door - Not a must have but an awesome spell none-the-less

Spells That can easily jump onto the great list depending on your build -
Icestorm, Acid Rain, Force Missiles, Repair Crit.


That Leaves us with 7 borderline "must haves" and 4 more potential "must haves" for a total of 11 spells. What do i think about 11 very good spells in the same braket? I love it, i couldnt be happier, 11 spells is alot to choose from. Here is my issue though, looking at 6th level spells we get a whole different look.

5th level "must haves" -

1. Cone of Cold - At this level its your best multiple enemy cold damage spell regardless of your build. I could potentally argue that polar ray and icestorm can make this spell obsolete, i dont personally believe that, but the arguement is there.
2. None.....

5th level spells that can be great depending on your build.
1. Cloudkill - I personally like this spell but i know many that dont.
2. Eladar's Electric Surge - I love the new DOTS and for a cold based caster this is your DOT.
3. Niac's Biting Cold - I love the new DOTS and for a cold based caster this is your DOT.
4. Ball Lightning - Decent damage, most notable is that its fairly fixed damage 15d3+45

5th level spells that have almost no reason to be slotted at cap (where we spend most of our time).

1. Teleport - Scrolls....quit being Cheep, lol.
2. Dismissal - No capped arcane has this, if they wanted it they would use banish.
3. Summon Monster 5 - Scrolls.....quit being Cheep.
4. Protection From Elements - The mass version makes this pointless, also, divines tend to keep that buff on lock down.
5. Hold Monster - The mass version makes this a weak choice, a single target for cheeper does have its uses but i wouldnt waist a slot on it, at least not at cap.

So based on my personal breakdown at most there are five 5th level spells to choose from and all of them are element specific so for a min maxxed charicter you will at most pick two of the five.

So this leaves us back to the argument of letting 4th lvl spells be memorised in a 5th level slot. I personally would love it, it seems wrong that spells that are suposed to be more powerful in fact arnt because of playstyle/game mechanics,ext ext ext. Gaining a level sould be a reward not a list of "Oh, this is all junk i wish they would just let me have stoneskin."

Remove the level from the spell list and pick your top 10 4th and 5th level spells. A capped wizard would have five 4th level and five 5th level spells so a top 10 would be perfect, top 8 if your a sorc....my list would go as fallows.

1. Wall of Fire
2. Fire Shield
3. Death Aura/Neg Burst
4. Stoneskin
5. Cone of Cold
6. Enveneration
7. Ice Storm
8. Repair Crit (Im bias because i only play WF)
9. Dimension Door
10. Cloud Kill

MY Top 10 leans heavily twards the 4th level spells with 8 4th level spells to only two 5th levels spells. Neither 5th level spell makes my top five, and cloudkill im not even super set on because i havnt gotten to really test the new DOTs with a specced sorc.

----EDIT----
Just to stay slighty on where this thread was headed, i dont care about 2.0 3.0 3.5 4.0, ive played under all the rule sets and it doesnt matter what "the core rules" are. MY opions are based on what i beleave would make the game funner for me.

Khellendros13
05-29-2011, 11:31 PM
Not signed.

While this would make my life easier on my Wizard, I don't think it should get easier.

How many say that Pale Master is superior to Archmage? A lot. So leave them with the hard choice of level 4 spells.

The solution or alternative should be to add more high level spells. The new dots help, and I use all my 4th, 5th level spells all the time. Cloudkill isn't optional (on a caster that has a clue and cares about the healers).

Level 9 really needs a LOT of work. 5 slots, 8 level 9 spells. Oh no which ones do I take? This list may vary by 1 spell on each Wizard.

I suggest adding a pop up after shrining reminding you that you can swap out spells :)

MindCake
05-30-2011, 05:55 AM
This is what I have been talking about this whole time.
l
\/


But it isn't only an option for wizards.
If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.
^
l
This. This is what I've been talking about this whole time.

[...]

Here, I'll make it simple:
I am ONLY talking about PnP. For our purposes, DDo doesnt even exist in my eyes. I have never heard of it.


Let me clarify a couple details:

Do you agree, that in PnP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm), sorceres have two lists:
1. list of spells known
2. list of spells per day

yes/no?

Do you, when you read the quoted relevant post believe the "8th level slot" in question comes from the "list of spells per day"?

yes/no?

If the above two are yes, please explain the second one.

Truga
05-30-2011, 06:57 AM
Le Post.

What he's trying to say is: A sorcerer can, when he levels to level 16, choose magic missile as his "level 8" known spell.

sweez
05-30-2011, 07:30 AM
If ALL spell levels were absolutely packed with useful spells, this would be a non-issue. However, with even 6th or 7th choice level 4 spells being overall better spells than most 2nd or 3rd choice level 7-9 spells, I wholeheartedly /sign

Either give us the option to slot lower level spells into higher level spell slots, or give us more useful high-level spells.

MindCake
05-30-2011, 07:35 AM
What he's trying to say is: A sorcerer can, when he levels to level 16, choose magic missile as his "level 8" known spell.
Which "he"?

Because if you mean Calebro, then yes, I know, I understand and I agree.

If you mean Doxmaster, then I have no idea what's going on, as he's saying something completely unrelated.

Doxmaster
05-30-2011, 05:38 PM
Let me clarify a couple details:

Do you agree, that in PnP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm), sorceres have two lists:
1. list of spells known
2. list of spells per day

yes/no?

Do you, when you read the quoted relevant post believe the "8th level slot" in question comes from the "list of spells per day"?

yes/no?

If the above two are yes, please explain the second one.
1-Yes
2-Yes
Yes.
~-In Pen and Paper-~

A sorcerer may cast magic missile using a use of his level 1 spells per day, his level 2 spells per day, his level three spells per day and so on. He gains nothing from casting it from his spells per day if the spells per day are not level 1 spells per day.

A sorcerer may learn magic missile at any character levels level he learns level 1 spells, sorcerer level 1, 3, 5 or 7. A sorcerer may not learn magic missile when he learns level 9 spells, such as meteor swarm, as he does not learn level 1(Sorry, it said 9 here but it was suppose to say 1) spells at that time.

Rumbaar
05-30-2011, 05:50 PM
I like this idea, there will need to be a cost, but sounds do-able without breaking the game. Well more than it currently is.

Rodasch
05-30-2011, 06:18 PM
1-Yes
2-Yes
Yes.
~-In Pen and Paper-~

A sorcerer may cast magic missile using a use of his level 1 spells per day, his level 2 spells per day, his level three spells per day and so on. He gains nothing from casting it from his spells per day if the spells per day are not level 1 spells per day.

A sorcerer may learn magic missile at any character levels level he learns level 1 spells, sorcerer level 1, 3, 5 or 7. A sorcerer may not learn magic missile when he learns level 9 spells, such as meteor swarm, as he does not learn level 9 spells at that time.

This is a much clearer representation of what you were trying to say, apparently. Thank you for taking the time to reword it so that we can all follow your intended meaning.

That being said, you are half right. There are rules for sorcerers forgetting old spells from the "spells known" list and gaining a new spell to replace it at any point where they are learning new spells of any level. Doing so requires them to swap out the old spell for the new one with no backsies...It's not something that is easy or encouraged heavily, but it is doable. however, they cannot learn a 1st level spell AS their 9th level "spells known" spell, as you say, so you are correct about that. That has always been the limitation of sorcerers to keep them from completely eclipsing wizards in spell power, since they get way more spells per day of all levels than wizards do as well as having better weapon selection and spell spontaneity (they don't memorize spells, they cast any spell on their spells known list as long as they have "spells per day" of that level left). That's a powerful combination in PnP, more than balanced versus wizards extra feats and broader spellbook (spells known).

What exactly are you trying to do here though? Are you supporting the OP's request or refuting it? Or are you just chatting in a sidebar about Calebro's post?

MindCake
05-31-2011, 01:03 AM
A sorcerer may not learn magic missile when he learns level 9 spells, such as meteor swarm, as he does not learn level 9 spells at that time.

I see.

I was thinking this should be allowed.

[...]These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.[...]
In particular, there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from developing a level 9 spell that creates "Up to five missiles of magical energy, that dart forth from your fingertips and strike their targets, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage each.[...]". DM could perhaps reject it, but come on, why? If the sorcerer player is willing to gimp himself this bad, he either has a valid in-game reason (umm, they desperately need force spells for something?), or his character is crazy about magic missiles (which I'd say is a valid in-game reason).

I'd allow it, perhaps even throw in empower and heighten to level 9 for free, or I'd just say they put magic missile in that slot (to cut on the book keeping).

Doxmaster
05-31-2011, 01:25 AM
What exactly are you trying to do here though? Are you supporting the OP's request or refuting it? Or are you just chatting in a sidebar about Calebro's post?

I was in support of the OPs idea, but I got sidetracked by Calebro's post. One last thing though: In regards to
Doing so requires them to swap out the old spell for the new one with no backsies...It's not something that is easy or encouraged heavily, but it is doable.

Sorcerers must swap a spell for another spell of equal level, so swapping fireball for magic missile would be impossible.



Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast.

Houseruling the swap allows high to low conversion is in no way overpowered, but as the rules are written it is not allowed. Aside from developing a new spell, as per what Mindcake said, once you miss out on getting or trading level 1 spells you'll never get magic missile.

karnokvolrath
05-31-2011, 01:33 AM
Not signed.

While this would make my life easier on my Wizard, I don't think it should get easier.

How many say that Pale Master is superior to Archmage? A lot. So leave them with the hard choice of level 4 spells.

The solution or alternative should be to add more high level spells. The new dots help, and I use all my 4th, 5th level spells all the time. Cloudkill isn't optional (on a caster that has a clue and cares about the healers).

Level 9 really needs a LOT of work. 5 slots, 8 level 9 spells. Oh no which ones do I take? This list may vary by 1 spell on each Wizard.

I suggest adding a pop up after shrining reminding you that you can swap out spells :)

Its funny how not so long ago palemasters where completely denounced as worthless. Archamges where "uber", and nothing has changed exept palemaster have gotten weaker and the people in the know let the secret out. (wink)

I agree with cloudkill, i love the spell hence it made my top 10, but as i said many dont. Earth Savant has done alot to change how people look at it recently.

A pop-up option is pointless because it would be annoying without being to turn it off.....and everyone would turn it off.

BTW when are we going to completely throw out all "house rules", PnP, 3.5 4.0 arguments......they hold absalutely no barring other then when people want to groan or fan-boy there idea. Look at what would be fair and balanced to our game, direct pnp rules have almost no hold anymore other then to offer a few ideas. The coding of all pnp spells would flat out break the game. I know alot of us are pnpers in the start (myself included) but this isnt pnp and never will be, look at it objectivly.

donfilibuster
05-31-2011, 12:10 PM
The point of having any rules was to let you build the characters and the quests.
Which rules are chosen depend on the campaign or setting, including for balance.

In the particular case of allowing lower lv spells on higher lv slots it has a purpose.
It let you build a character without high primary score.
You can have a wiz with low int and can fill the slots with the spells you can cast.

As far as customization goes, not having a high score is a valid option.
Wether you disallow that in the game is a different matter.

Still /signed

danielost
05-31-2011, 01:37 PM
The point of having any rules was to let you build the characters and the quests.
Which rules are chosen depend on the campaign or setting, including for balance.

In the particular case of allowing lower lv spells on higher lv slots it has a purpose.
It let you build a character without high primary score.
You can have a wiz with low int and can fill the slots with the spells you can cast.

As far as customization goes, not having a high score is a valid option.
Wether you disallow that in the game is a different matter.

Still /signed

you might be able to fill your spell slots with lower lvl spells, but the lower your primary stat the fewer number of spells you can have at every lvl.

fuzzy1guy
06-01-2011, 01:37 PM
An idea.

Just ADD the base costs.

Say you've got a 25 base cost spell. Wanna put it in a base cost 50 slot.


New base sp cost... 75. Before max, empower, heighten ect.. that could get real expensive on some slot swaps.


Would give us some options. With a real heavy price to do it. Take a little thought to when/if you wanted to cast that.

Dispel
06-01-2011, 02:25 PM
Level 7 Spells Suck! Level 6 Spells Rock!

Level 8 Spells Kinda' Suck Now Too! Let's Do This!

Certon
06-01-2011, 03:41 PM
Absolutely great idea. The original poster, that is. It's not OP, and allows Wizards and Clerics (and to a lesser extent Rangers and Paladins) some leeway without overpowering them.

donfilibuster
06-01-2011, 05:19 PM
Level 7 Spells Suck! Level 6 Spells Rock!

Level 8 Spells Kinda' Suck Now Too! Let's Do This!

Despite the irony that's not how it is supposed to be.
The higher level spells are supposedly to be exponentially growing in niceness.
Where's the cleric's earthquake? planar ally (greater), gate, storm of vengeance?
Where's the wizard's spell turning? insanity, mordenkainen's sword, reverse gravity?
prismatic wall! even scintillating pattern, imprisonment, weird (aka mass phantasm killer).
Just to name a few that might not conflict with DDO as say, etherealness would do.