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Ecoski
05-25-2011, 07:42 PM
Quick note: I know that some classes only have one Pre at the moment, and that the rogue has 3. However I'm hoping that in the future some more will be added, and I was curious to see if anyone else would be interested in this style.

The Swashbuckler
A dashing, flamboyant scoundrel who knows that in combat, appearance is everything. Relying on style rather than strength, the swashbuckler tricks opponents into lowering their guard, before launching a devastating blow!

Swashbuckler 1
-Whilst wielding a single rapier, a swashbuckler uses his charisma modifier for to-hit and damage rolls, and gains a 25% chance to doublestrike.
- +2 bluff and diplomacy

Witty Retort: A successful bluff interrupts an enemy's spell, and prevents casting for 5 seconds.

Swashbuckler 2
- Whilst wielding a single rapier, a swashbuckler adds his charisma modifier to sneak attack damage.
- +2 bluff and diplomacy
- Removes DC increase on successive bluff and diplomacy attempts

Disarming Smile: A successful diplomacy has a chance to stun nearby enemies for 5 seconds on a roll of 18-20.

Swashbuckler 3
- Whilst wielding a single rapier, its crit range is doubled (doesn't stack with improved critical or keen) and its multiplier increased to x4.

Perfect Style: Expends one use of Haste boost.
- You move so fast attacks appear to be misdirected at the last second (50% chance of enemy attacks missing)
- A successful bluff causes an enemy to take 20% extra damage from all sources (extra damage doesn't generate threat)
- +25% hate generation
- Unable to hide or sneak attack

OK, so thoughts? OP, UP? Please bear in mind that for any of these bonuses to occur, the off-hand must be empty, so it is a drop in dps from that point of view. The swashbuckler also allows a rogue to lead from the front, instead of hiding at the back, through the use of interrupts and stuns, as well as becoming a pseudo-tank at level 18, whilst sacrificing sneak attack damage.

Ecoski
05-25-2011, 07:58 PM
Apologies for the heavy editing, I only notice flaws etc. once I've actually posted ^^

Angelus_dead
05-25-2011, 08:13 PM
OK, so thoughts? OP, UP? Please bear in mind that for any of these bonuses to occur, the off-hand must be empty, so it is a drop in dps from that point of view.
You're providing two capabilities here:
1. No-shield single 1h weapon fighting style
2. Melee charisma and super bluff

For reasons such as consistency with existing combat styles and applicability to other classes, the weapon style would be better provided as a series of 2-3 feats, so that a player would choose between the TWF series and the "one-hander" series. Restricting it to rapier-only is an unecessary limitation; other weapons can be compatible.

The focus on charisma looks too intense... it'd be more reasonable to add some charisma-based bonuses to attacks, instead of completely replacing strength with it.

Ecoski
05-25-2011, 08:26 PM
So instead you'd propose that the 1HF becomes something like this?

1HF
20% Double Strike
Improved Crit

I1HF
+10% Double Strike
Increased Crit modifier

G1HF
+10% Double Strike
20% chance to parry incoming attacks

-I chose to make it rapier only in the same way that the acrobat is quarterstaff only, and stalwart benefits s&b users. Plus I can't imagine a swashbuckler wielding a club or a scepter ^^
-I tried to think of a different way of using charisma, but it doesn't completely replace strength, a swashbuckler would still need strength in the same way a caster does, if you don't have enough you can't carry items/become encumbered/helpless. So a rogue would still have to put at least 4 points into strength, as well as keeping int and con high. The only thing this really does is it can make dex a dump stat instead, as you wouldn't need it for TWF.

SableShadow
05-25-2011, 08:33 PM
Dude...you're serious? Or just posting an OotS PrE? :confused:

The more things hinge off a single stat, the more borked they become ... observe our current str/con and <caster stat>/con situation.

Angelus_dead
05-25-2011, 08:44 PM
-I chose to make it rapier only in the same way that the acrobat is quarterstaff only, and stalwart benefits s&b users. Plus I can't imagine a swashbuckler wielding a club or a scepter ^^
The primary benefits of Acrobat don't involve weapons, and a Longsword fits the Swashbuckler image pretty decently.

Ecoski
05-25-2011, 08:44 PM
What's oots? And this class doesn't just hinge off of charisma. It's still a rogue so it will want:

Str: Carrying capacity, and you don't want to become helpless.
Con: HP. 'nuff said.
Dex: Dump stat.
Wis: Dump stat.
Int: SKILLZ. Besides the DD, OL, Search, couple of points in tumble and a bit in jump (standard rogue) you'll now need max diplo and bluff.
Cha: Important skill.

So it requires 3.5/6, unlike fighter (2 or 3/6) barbarian (2/6) wizard (2.5/6) sorc (2.5) ranger (3/6). It's hardly a simple class to use.

Edit: Acrobat gets speed boost with quarterstaff and dex added to sneak attack, that's sort of a primary benefit. I suppose I could change it to longsword and rapier, but tbh I can't see someone using a longsword over a rapier, especially when a rogue can't use longswords.

Angelus_dead
05-25-2011, 08:50 PM
And this class doesn't just hinge off of charisma. It's still a rogue so it will want
The suggestion in post1 gets the biggest benefits from tier 1, available at level 6, allowing you to take 14 of Bard or Sorcerer.


Dex: Dump stat.
Wis: Dump stat.
Only dump stats if you don't care about AC...


Int: SKILLZ. Besides the DD, OL, Search, couple of points in tumble and a bit in jump (standard rogue) you'll now need max diplo and bluff.
All Rogues should max UMD, and this specialty doesn't make Diplomacy more needed, so that comes to UMD+DD+OL+Search+Bluff = 5 skills, which is less than the default 8 a Rogue gets without any intelligence.



Acrobat gets speed boost with quarterstaff and dex added to sneak attack, that's sort of a primary benefit.
No, that's a minor benefit which lures some people into assuming Acrobats should be using quarterstaffs. The main advantages of Acrobat are running speed and knockdown immunity.


I suppose I could change it to longsword and rapier, but tbh I can't see someone using a longsword over a rapier, especially when a rogue can't use longswords.
No reason not to leave it with all 1h light or slashing weapons. And seriously, Clubs are so unattractive already there's little reason to disallow them either.

SableShadow
05-25-2011, 08:55 PM
What's oots?

Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)

Symar-FangofLloth
05-25-2011, 09:04 PM
Eh.
I'd really, really, rather see all the current PrEs finished, and the remainder of the list added, before we get anything more.

Whoops, say your disclaimer at the beginning.
Maybe a sword+board rogue PrE could work out, but who knows.

Talias006
05-26-2011, 06:37 AM
-I chose to make it rapier only in the same way that the acrobat is quarterstaff only, and stalwart benefits s&b users. Plus I can't imagine a swashbuckler wielding a club or a scepter ^^

I remember a time at an rpga table where there was a swashbuckling halfling who was wearing a musketeer hat with a feather plume as tall as the character. He started a tavern brawl with his witty candor, and finished it with the leg of a table used as a club. Just goes to show, even though it wasn't intentional, swashbucklers can indeed fight with (makeshift) blunt weapons if needs be.