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DustTheWind
05-25-2011, 03:18 PM
Or rather effective ranged primary builds.

Do something... anything to support effective primarily ranged builds. A varriety of em not just Arcane archer or mechanic. And not some enhancement you get at level 20 to be effective like slayer arrow. I am talking enhancements that change as you level up that make you more effective progressivly not just at end game (ugh :( ). And something to compensate for the slow rate of fire for the bow. We need new ideas. Ranged build variety is stagnating and precarious. We need some one devoted to furthering these kind of builds too.

One thing I found I was fascinated with was this build.

Originally Posted by website


http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Zen_Arc...%29#Power_Shot
...Ki Shot: At 4th level, the zen archer learns to channel the subtle energies of ki through his ranged attacks made with bows. The zen archer may now add his Wisdom bonus to damage rolls made regarding bow attacks. This added damage stacks with bonuses gained from using composite bows with a strength requirement. Zen archery and its subsequent special abilities can only be used with shortbows and longbows (not crossbows or other ranged or thrown weapons). Added damage from Zen Archery cannot drop below 0. ...

...Though a zen archer casts no spells, he channels a subtle energy called ki, which allows him to empower his shots. A zen archer also has a preternatural awareness that allows him to dodge an attack even if she is not consciously aware of it. As a zen archer gains experience and power, his mundane and ki-oriented abilities grow, giving him more and more power over himself and sometimes over others...

...A zen archer channels his ki through his arrows...

...Bonus Feat: A zen archer gains a number of bonus feats as he improves. He gains one at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 10th, 15th and 20th. He may choose any of the following: Deflect Arrows, Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run and Snatch Arrows. When choosing bonus feats, the zen archer may apply his Wisdom score to any prerequisite usually involving Dexterity. For instance, he may apply for the Manyshot feat if he has a Wisdom score of 17....

...Zen Mastery: At 16th level, a zen archer's mastery over his weapons of choice increases. The critical multiplier of any shortbow or longbow in his hands increases by one and becomes ×4.... <---Wow this is better than Deep wood sniper currently!


I mean why cant we have something more interesting like this?

Please guys my brain is rotting with the current variety of range builds. But also the fact that if I do it how sub par it is.

Hellllboy
05-25-2011, 03:24 PM
Its funny you mention this-I was just thinking the same thing about Zen Archery. It would be nice if players were able to gain both to hit and damage based on Wisdom Mod.

Missing_Minds
05-25-2011, 03:54 PM
Answer, find it in the base core first, THEN maybe you could convince the devs otherwise.

Also expect at that point the freebie of Zen Archery making it a "ki weapon" (lets be honest, it really just makes it a stance centered weapon as it generates no Ki.) to be removed and regulated to its own feat just like Whirling Steel Strike is which would also have Weapon Focused: Ranged as a pre req.

And yes, Dust. I remember your other thread about this same topic. Should the above happen, I'd be wanting them to make it generate Ki as well.

I'm not saying such to be mean, just saying what exactly would happen. Becareful what you wish for, these Devs just might give you it.

elujin
05-25-2011, 04:15 PM
my bow monk already hits x4 x5 with the new bow from the hairbringer chain

DustTheWind
05-25-2011, 04:39 PM
Answer, find it in the base core first, THEN maybe you could convince the devs otherwise.

Also expect at that point the freebie of Zen Archery making it a "ki weapon" (lets be honest, it really just makes it a stance centered weapon as it generates no Ki.) to be removed and regulated to its own feat just like Whirling Steel Strike is which would also have Weapon Focused: Ranged as a pre req.

And yes, Dust. I remember your other thread about this same topic. Should the above happen, I'd be wanting them to make it generate Ki as well.

I'm not saying such to be mean, just saying what exactly would happen. Becareful what you wish for, these Devs just might give you it.

Well personally I liked the idea of that zen archer but I am not set on it. I just think in general there should be a bit more variety of ranged focused builds that hold ranged as a primary value of attack. I don't think it necessarily has to be zen. I certainly did like some of the changes they made to arcane archer but at the same time a bit disapointed. I am certainly not suggesting ranged primary builds be better than melee either however I am suggesting that the various forms of range primary builds put out about similar dps and not wayy far behind melee. At least about 1/2 or more but less than 3/4 as effective. However I understand multi-shot really complicates matters quite a bit.

I was just using this build as an example of other variety of builds they could possibly do. I was also suggesting at doing away with slayer arrow and instead leveling up enhancements instead. Such as force arrow increasing in damage per level for arcane archers for example. Or enhancements for mechanics that grow over time as they level up. Maybe making the Deepwood sniper a viable build.

I hope this isn't too redundant of my last post. I meant it as a sort of more general encouragement to change the way ranged is currently. Just change in my opinion would be welcome. That and builds that have more gradual increase in damage rather than the massive leap and unpredictible increase in damage such as slayer arrow provides.



"my bow monk already hits x4 x5 with the new bow from the hairbringer chain"


I have to admit I was a bit worried about the increase in crit damage of the monk mountain stance plus that new bow they put out (the penalty in spot isn't pretty though) But the more I looked into it the dps was actually still sub par I think. For example

The bow does 1d8 damage and crits +1 crit multiplier on a 10% chance.
Lets compare this to an arcane archer with slyer arrow.

You have that sinue bow + monk stance earth III + Deepwood.
Deepwood will increase the crit range from 10% to 20% but you only get to fire every 10 sec. Say you fire a shot on average every second which is close to actuall fire rates. Deep wood arrow shot takes up one of your fired arrows for a second as well I think correct me if I am wrong. But I will assume deepwood fires on a separate timer in favor of doubt.

TR ranger= 2
Str=10 and this may be beyond pushing it considering you have to ballance Dex as well to hit.
Seeker=6
arrow=3-->75% returning

Monk hybrid ranger/Deepwood/Sinue bow (level 20)
Crit damage ave-->(10% 1 shot ever 10 sec deepwood)*[(50%=half chance of 10% crit range of 17-18)*(4 multiplier)*(1d8+seeker+Str+TR ranger+arrow)+(50% the other half for deep wood @ die 19 to 20)*(6 multiplier)*(1d8+seeker+Str+TR ranger+arrow)]+(10% with bow of sinue crit range 19-20)*(5 multiplier [no deep mult])*(1d8+seeker+Str+TR ranger+arrow)+(90% non crit damage)*(1d8+Str+TR ranger+arrow)=simplifies too=

(.1 deepwood shot every 10 sec)*(.3 = 30% chance)*[(4)*(4.5+8+10+2+3)+(6)*(4.5+8+10+2+3)]+(.1)*[(5)*(4.5+8+10+2+3)+(3)*(4.5+8+10+2+3)]+(.8)*(4.5+10+2+3)=45.85 damage per shot @ 1 sec per shot = 45.85 dps. even adding an extra 10% to deepwood which is unrealistic. shows ya how far behind deep wood is.

Monk hybrid ranger/AA/Sinue (level 20)
(.1)*[(5)*(4.5+8+10+2+5)+(3)*(4.5+8+10+2+5)]+(.8)*(4.5+10+2+5)+(25)=65.8 dps

Pure Ranger/AA/Sinu bow (level 20)
((.1=10%)*((3 crit mult)*(4.5+8+10+2+5+4 favored enemies)+(4 crit mult)*(4.5+8+10+2+5+4 favored enemies))+(.8=80%)*(4.5+10+2+5+4 favored enemies)+(25 slayer arrow))/(1-12% Ranger Capstone)=78.24

Pure Ranger/AA/Silver bow (level 20)
((.2=20%)*(3 crit mult)*(5.5+6+10+2+5+4 favored enemies)+(.8=80%)*(4.5+10+2+5+4 favored enemies)+(25 slayer arrow)+(Holy 6.5))/(1-12% Ranger Capstone)=82.61

Non favored pur ranger silver bow= 76.25 dps not big surprise but the ranger + silver bow wins out again big time. Specially being able to re-enhance and pick your favored enemies.

Some one might ask well what about multishot figured in.
.17*4*(76.25)+(1-.17)*76.25=115.096

now compare that to say any melee damage - already covered at this link here:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=264831

Which show ya how far behind we ranged really are folks.

That was in response to the sinue bow. Sorry folks but the crit multipliers just arent doing it for me.

Eckenwiler
05-25-2011, 04:51 PM
I'd like to see the ability to craft magical arrows. If I can make sword of lesser orc bane, why can't I make an arrow?

I'd like to see rogues be able to use trap parts to craft specialty bolts too. If I can make a grenade that does fire damage, than a bolt that does fire damage should also be possible.

transtemporal
05-25-2011, 06:26 PM
Yes, ranged combat needs to be addressed but increasing RoF and/or increasing damage without first addressing incompatibilities with melee combat is a game-wrecker waiting to happen.

Fetchi
05-25-2011, 06:46 PM
Whether it be Zen Archery, different feats or enhancements, whatever...A ranged combat "pass" (i.e. upgrade) needs to happen.

It is a very fun combat style that many players enjoy.

Please Fernando and team, find the enthusiasm, resources, and time to give it a good change.

transtemporal
05-25-2011, 07:36 PM
Whether it be Zen Archery, different feats or enhancements, whatever...A ranged combat "pass" (i.e. upgrade) needs to happen.

It is a very fun combat style that many players enjoy.

Please Fernando and team, find the enthusiasm, resources, and time to give it a good change.

I agree that a pass should happen and that it should include an upgrade but not without addressing the fundamental incompatibility between ranged combat and melee combat first. Increasing the viability of ranged DPS without first addressing this issue will exacerbate the incompatibility to game-killing levels.

Gkar
05-25-2011, 07:43 PM
I agree that a pass should happen and that it should include an upgrade but not without addressing the fundamental incompatibility between ranged combat and melee combat first. Increasing the viability of ranged DPS without first addressing this issue will exacerbate the incompatibility to game-killing levels.

An even worse than current RoF and damage when moving, while giving much better RoF while your feet are firmly planted would solve both issus.

Missing_Minds
05-25-2011, 07:45 PM
An even worse than current RoF and damage when moving, while giving much better RoF while your feet are firmly planted would solve both issus.

So would fixing it so that mobs in a lvl 6? causal quest can't out run a lvl 20 monk with 25% striders in wind stance.

Mob rate of speed way out does players. If they want to keep claiming the RoF is fine because of your safe spots to keep from getting hit, they need to make it so the mobs can't catch us just like we can't catch them.