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Sebastrd
05-22-2011, 09:28 AM
This has been bouncing around in my head for a while, so I figured I'd go ahead and post it for the devs to do with as they will.

Armor and types were terribly designed in 3.X. Weapon types weren't perfect either, but when you have multiple, multiplicative relevant factors balancing weapons (base damage, crit range, crit multiplier, etc.), that's a little more complicated and understandable.

Armor types have only two relevant differentiating factors: armor class and max dex bonus. (Armor Check Penalty and Arcane Spell Failure are non-factors; any character that cares about either of them will choose armor with ACP or ASF of zero, respectively.)

If you take a look at all of the armor types, you'll see that there is little rhyme or reason to these numbers outside of, perhaps, historical accuracy or personal opinion/preference.

Heavy
Full Plate: AC 8 + MD 1 = 9
Half Plate: AC 7 + MD 0 = 7
Banded Mail: AC 6 + MD 1 = 7
Splint Mail: AC 6 + MD 0 = 6

Medium
Chainmail: AC 5 + MD 2 = 7
Brigandine: AC 5 + MD 3 = 8
Breastplate: AC 5 + MD 3 = 8
Scale Mail: AC 4 + MD 3 = 7
Hide Armor: AC 3 + MD 4 = 7

Light
Chain Shirt: AC 4 + MD 4 = 8
Studded Leather: AC 3 + MD 5 = 8
Leather Armor: AC 2 + MD 6 = 8
Padded Armor: AC 1 + MD 8 = 9

The end result is that there are clear “bests” in armor types. (Weapons have the same issue, but are not nearly as easily fixed.) Full plate is the only reasonable choice among heavy armors, light armor is potentially as good as heavy and better than medium, and mithril full plate is far and away the best armor in the game.

Therefore, I recommend a simple and easy adjustment to armor types in order to even the field and eliminate “useless” armor types.

Heavy
Full Plate: AC 10 + MD 1 = 11
Half Plate: AC 9 + MD 2 = 11
Banded Mail: AC 8 + MD 3 = 11
Splint Mail: AC 7 + MD 4 = 11

Medium
Chainmail: AC 7 + MD 3 = 10
Brigandine: AC 8 + MD 2 = 10
Breastplate: AC 6 + MD 4 = 10
Scale Mail: AC 7 + MD 3 = 10
Hide Armor: AC 6 + MD 4 = 10

Light
Chain Shirt: AC 4 + MD 5 = 9
Studded Leather: AC 3 + MD 6 = 9
Leather Armor: AC 2 + MD 7 = 9
Padded Armor: AC 1 + MD 8 = 9

The end result of the adjustments is twofold:

1) All armors of a particular proficiency provide potentially identical armor classes, obviously dependent upon the character's DEX bonus. Not only that, but the higher a character’s DEX bonus, the wider the array of functionally identical armors from which to choose. This gives characters with high DEX a bit of a bonus for their investment.

2) The maximum attainable armor class is increased by one. Armor class quickly becomes irrelevant after a certain level, and players have been clamoring about that fact for a long time; a max AC increase is a small step toward fixing that problem. More importantly, characters that can gain better armor proficiency, either by class feature or feat, are rewarded with a slight increase in max AC. Heavy armor tanks, as they should be, will have the best possible armored AC in the game. (Yes, I do realize that high dexterity, monk based characters with an alternate source of armor bonus have the highest potential AC in the game. That situation is far beyond the scope of this post.)

The bottom line is that all armor types will become potentially useful, giving players more choices. Expansion of meaningful choices is always a good thing.

bigolbear
05-22-2011, 09:51 AM
you forgot 2 very important factors for pen and paper, price and availablity.

admitedly these dont translate at all into a mmo.

for mmo purposes id have to say apearance has to be taken into consideration.

Shade
05-22-2011, 10:21 AM
Fullplaes 8 ac. 1 dex.

Personally I find the whole AC system inherently and utterly broken. It'ssuch a basic system, that sure works for a simple turn based game where a DM can force each character to live within a d20 world.. But never worked for a fast paced realtime game like ddo. Especially not when we aren't govered by a dm and are limited only by whats available.. we can far too easily strive for values incredibly outside of the d20s range.. Leaving turbine with only 2 real choices:
Settings monsters attack values so low content becomes trivial. or
Set them high enough that the system is essentiall disabled.

Luckily they went with the later to keep it as irrelevant as possible. And imo it's something that will never become a relevant system. All content in the game is designed around monsters hitting you just fine, and that wont change.

donfilibuster
05-22-2011, 01:17 PM
To best judge AC you have to look at the big picture and how has it changed or rather not changed with every edition.

The editions from 2e to 4e juggle with two things: simplification and customization.
It also varies the types of game you are intended to play, be it traditional d&d, high magic fantasy, etc.

2e was very down to earth, fairly historically realistic when it comes to combat, weapons and armor.
You had specialization of weapons designed vs armor and armor designed vs weapons.
You had initiative speeds, reach based on weapon size, etc.
This was great for a typical campaing of medieval style, low magic setting.
Few would carry magical weapons and armor and you'd face soldiers or humanoid foes like orcs and goblins.

What 2e lacked was customization, so 3e let you make your own character and the DM was free to play any type of game.
This was also intended to promote 3rd party publishers who were most happy to deviate from the typical d&d game.
Gone was the shining knight, leaving room for the barbarian dragonslayer.

No longer you fight soldiers but big bulky monsters, for which you'd want a big axe rather than the sword of the RL stories.
Sure swords are iconic in the tales but really meant to cut through armor, and armor to protect them in turn.
But Conan the Barbarian has as much chance vs. a dragon than a knight in full plate.
So a whole lot of the weaponry stuff in 2e was dropped for 3e.

In 3e the weapons system remains rich and functional, but the focus is in the types not in the weapons.
If you just look at the list in SRD you won't be impressed, but you'll find the rest over the various supplements.
Basically you group weapons by similarity so that the DM won't have to invent stats for the new weapons.
Hence the katana is the same as the bastard sword, you just need stats for the basic weapons and take a match for the rest.
(see the A&EG)

Conversely the AC and armor was simplified and streamlined, but never meant to be gone or diminished.
Characters and monsters still have one AC source, be it dex, natural armor, deflection, etc.
Naturally armor gear lost the appeal since your campaigns won't revolve around militia foes anymore.
Big monsters would have tick hides, supernatural monsters would have deflection, etc.
And the d20 made it simple by making AC your DC for attacking.

Now you'll only worry about having a good weapon and this is where it goes wrong.
Specially on a high magic worlds, this hit and miss thing lead to wanting the highest plus over and over.
The results are clear, and the MMO mechanics made it even worse with the bland weapons systems the engine has.

You may frown about 3e having a simplified weaponry, but you can have multiple methods of attack.
You can wield a weapon in 1h or 2h as needed, doubleweapons for twf, multiple damage types, etc.
None of this made into DDO where a weapon have just one use and most of them are just filling the grid for the sake of having one of each type on the list.

That'd be the engine to blame but things like that you won't expect too much from the armor system either isn't it.
Yet you are still supposed to have an AC source, and still not necessarily coming from armor bonus or shields.
The problem is not that AC is broken but that we are given less options for AC.
And D&D classes are meant to be flexible enough to have defenses, whereas a MMO just focus on the tank.
The PnP has a lot more options for AC, with higher hitting comes higher buffs.
There's plenty of spells and feats to avoid having to reinvent the wheel. e.g. the greater mage armor spell.
And what better than making AC work as intended rather than wanting to tweak or remove it just to patch the hole.

ExK444
05-22-2011, 01:28 PM
Ah, but the big thing in PnP is that it is costly and takes time to get a set of full plate fitted, while, say, splint mail is both cheaper and more readily available. Of course, neither of these are big concerns in an MMO where almost all armor is named or random loot, and there is never a waiting period to speak of. I agree that there is definitely an optimal kind of armor in each class, except robe vs. outfit, and as none of the mechanics revolving around availability were ever implemented from PnP, I would the "bad" armor types should be made more niche armor types. How to do this, I wouldn't know, but it would certainly increase the diversity of useful armor types.

Sebastrd
05-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Fullplaes 8 ac. 1 dex.

Noted and fixed.


Personally I find the whole AC system inherently and utterly broken. It'ssuch a basic system, that sure works for a simple turn based game where a DM can force each character to live within a d20 world.. But never worked for a fast paced realtime game like ddo. Especially not when we aren't govered by a dm and are limited only by whats available.. we can far too easily strive for values incredibly outside of the d20s range.. Leaving turbine with only 2 real choices:
Settings monsters attack values so low content becomes trivial. or
Set them high enough that the system is essentiall disabled.

Luckily they went with the later to keep it as irrelevant as possible. And imo it's something that will never become a relevant system. All content in the game is designed around monsters hitting you just fine, and that wont change.

I agree completely. As I've said elsewhere on the boards, the underlying system in 3.X is mathematically broken. Fixing it would require an overhaul of the basic math.

I have no delusions about fixing the AC system. However, as it stands there are particular weapon and armor types that show up in random loot and are instantly discarded because they are mechanically weak regardless of the enchantments on them.

This is a simple fix that would make all armors worth considering.

donfilibuster
05-22-2011, 06:16 PM
I agree with the issue where d20 roll ends up being irrelevant, because of the sticks and stones syndrome.
The purpose of the roll was to be like DC where 5 was easy target, 10 regular, 15 hard and 20 very hard.
In that scale every +1 counts, and was the intention for the skill feats that give +2 that no one takes.

The thing is in PnP the DM would throw appropiately scaled monsters at you, so the 1-20 range would not break.
But in DDO if you are always hitting it is supposed to mean you should be doing higher level quests or higher diff.
Only we go for optimal gear and time and are capped on the quest level we can take anyways.

In this sense the to-hit roll is not so much broken as merely not appropiate for your campaign.
The DMG has a variant to go with this, the 'defense roll' in page 25, which is a d20 instead of having base AC of 10.
It is to be used when the high-level character always hit or the low-level never hits.
After reading many threads with suggestions to fix AC, this variant is nicely simple, yet probably not enough for DDO.

If i were to suggest one such change, i'd go further and separate the to-hit bonus from the roll for chance completely.
It'd be like having to roll to confirm every attack, and yeah i'm aware it'd cause extra calculations.
The inmediate effect is that if you are higher level you find yourself missing half of the time, but at lower level you'll be hitting half of the time.
(the point would be not having to rely on uber gear or zerging tactics, give incentive to take on higher challenge, etc)

The not so inmediate effect is that you won't need a large investment in AC to have an adequate defense.
I'd insist that limiting high AC to tank builds is a MMO thing, the D&D classes are fairly capable of having an adequate defense.
No one is to be forced to play tank just to avoid being hit, that thing belong to group tactics.



This is a simple fix that would make all armors worth considering.

What fix? your idea for numbers on your earier post? that one seems good as far as tweaks go.

Brennie
05-22-2011, 07:05 PM
A few notes:

- Leather armor is 2 armor, 6 max dex bonus for a total of 8, not 9.

- ASF is sometimes relevant, and Armor Check is also a balancing factor. They do have some importance, though i agree it shouldn't be the prmary concern when balancing armor stats. More in my suggestions.



2) The maximum attainable armor class is increased by one.

- Since you updated the Fullplate stats, you must realize this increases the max attainable AC for worn armor by 2 (Fullplate goes from 9 to 11).

Those notes aside, i must say i support this idea. I may not entirely agree with the numbers (Though i don't overtly disagree), the idea that 3/4 of medium and heavy armors are entirely useless has been a point of annoyance for me for some time. The only reasonable solution seem sot be to bring parity between all medium and heavy armors (And possibly light armor as well). I think your suggestion has a good way of dealing with the oversight.

Here are my own personal-opinion-based thoughts and suggestions on your fix:

- First, i would be more comfortable with Heavy armor capped at 10, medium at 9, and light armor at 8 (So that the actual values don't change as much from what we have now). I realize low levels are not the biggest concern, but a 2 point AC swing for anyone wearing heavy armor would make lo wlevels even more trivial.

- I personally would re-arrange breastplate and brigandine to be the high armor/low dex cap armors for medium armor, since they are theoretically the most restrictive, with scalemail and chainmail being a little more mobile, and hide armor obviously being the most mobile.

- Higher dex armors need to have reason to wear them. As such, i think the higher the dex bonus, the lower the ASF and armor check penalty should be.

- Padded armor is the last step between armor and cloth. In its current incarnation, it has the same Armor check as leather armor, but 2 higher max dex bonus, which makes it a somewhat appealing option for people within a very limited range of dexterity. Because my suggested proposition keeps the Armor Check Penalty the same between leather and padded, Padded needs that extra edge - which i propose becomes extra max dex bonus. I do not feel this is imbalanced, because it requires a very high dex character to fully take advantage of.

My suggested tweak to your suggestion comes out looking like this:



Heavy
Full Plate: AC 9 + MD 1 = 10; ASF 40%, ACP -7
Half Plate: AC 8 + MD 2 = 10; ASF 40%, ACP -7
Banded Mail: AC 7 + MD 3 = 10; ASF 35%, ACP -6
Splint Mail: AC 6 + MD 4 =10; ASF 35%, ACP - 6



Medium
Brigandine: AC 7 + MD 2 = 9; ASF 30%, ACP -5
Breastplate: AC 7 + MD 2 = 9; ASF 30%, ACP -5
Chainmail: AC 6 + MD 3 = 9; ASF 25%, ACP -4
Scale Mail: AC 6 + MD 3 = 9; ASF 25%, ACP -4
Hide Armor: AC 5 + MD 4 = 9; ASF 20%, ACP -3



Light
Chain Shirt: AC 4 + MD 4 = 8; ASF 20%, ACP -2
Studded Leather: AC 3 + MD 5 = 8; ASF 15%, ACP -1
Leather Armor: AC 2 + MD 6 = 8; ASF 10%, ACP -0
Padded Armor: AC 1 + MD 8 = 9; ASF 5%, ACP -0

ThePrincipal
05-22-2011, 07:27 PM
fixing armor is different from fixing ac. to make ac work... well toss out the d20 and go with a d40 to-hit roll

the real reason anyone wore armor in battle was for damage reduction. the great thing is we already have DR in the game so it's easy to add a static level into armor.

a simple exampe would be 0 dr for cloth, 1 for light, 2 for medium, and 3 for heavy. stacking with all other forms of shield, race, class, and magic sources of dr including axeblock and adamantine dr bonuses to armor. this armor dr would be for physical attacks (and physical spike/blade traps) but not magic or elemental damage. then have certain classes like fighter or races like dwarf have the ability to use AP to increase the DR of heavy armor (to give heavy armor yet another boost) by 1 per tier. (3 tiers)

i should also point out that many of the named light armors in the game have nimble and greater nimbleness which increases their AC potiental by that much more. if armor type doesnt matter for AC purposes at least make it matter for damage mitigation, at least a little

donfilibuster
05-22-2011, 08:14 PM
fixing armor is different from fixing ac. to make ac work... well toss out the d20 and go with a d40 to-hit roll

the real reason anyone wore armor in battle was for damage reduction. the great thing is we already have DR in the game so it's easy to add a static level into armor.

Not sure about DR, the way the armor specialization was it would entirely protect from certain weapons hitting you, specially arrows.
Then you'd need a weapons that can get into the seams or bludgeons to smash the plates, etc.
Swords are highly specialized too, wasn't merely hack and slash.

For D&D however it just means to know if you hit or not, without going into detail but assuming that if the foe have high dex they would dodging or if have thick hide they would be hard to make bleed, etc.

In any case, changing AC for DR is taking away one of the stat options we have to build characters.
While that'd work for the issue at hand there's surely some solution that adds to the game rather than take from it.

Even then there's already variants in the book for both making AC into DR and making the roll range larger.
Such as the defense roll from the DMG which is akin to having that d40 roll.
So no need to reinvent the wheel for AC altough naturally some adjustments would be needed for DDO.

Now for fixing armor, as it's the idea in this post, the tweak makes sense and is simple enough.
It boils down to streamlining the values when it comes to combining dex with gear for AC.
There still might have been other reasons behind making half-plate substandart, maybe coming back from the cut down of stuff between 2e and 3e.
The way low magic campaings are you are supposed to begin with lesser armor before moving on to full plate.
But for high magic, normalizing the values to make them usable is not too big a tweak.


i should also point out that many of the named light armors in the game have nimble and greater nimbleness which increases their AC potiental by that much more. if armor type doesnt matter for AC purposes at least make it matter for damage mitigation, at least a little

Those would be extra, allowing larger dex benefit, but the same could be said of non-dex armor bonuses with the right feats.
For example, Races of Stone had some armor specialization feats you can take much similar to the weapon specialization feats.
You'll gain a larger AC bonus due to your training.
Again, i always say this game lacks AC options that are already out there.

Sebastrd
05-23-2011, 06:11 AM
A few notes:

- Leather armor is 2 armor, 6 max dex bonus for a total of 8, not 9.

Thanks, and fixed.


- Since you updated the Fullplate stats, you must realize this increases the max attainable AC for worn armor by 2 (Fullplate goes from 9 to 11).

I do, and I think even a +2 increase isn't going to break the game. AC is so far behind attack bonus at high level that even a +2 isn't enough to catch up. I don't think it'll make low levels any more trivial that they already are.


Those notes aside, i must say i support this idea. I may not entirely agree with the numbers (Though i don't overtly disagree), the idea that 3/4 of medium and heavy armors are entirely useless has been a point of annoyance for me for some time. The only reasonable solution seem sot be to bring parity between all medium and heavy armors (And possibly light armor as well). I think your suggestion has a good way of dealing with the oversight.

Here are my own personal-opinion-based thoughts and suggestions on your fix:

- First, i would be more comfortable with Heavy armor capped at 10, medium at 9, and light armor at 8 (So that the actual values don't change as much from what we have now). I realize low levels are not the biggest concern, but a 2 point AC swing for anyone wearing heavy armor would make lo wlevels even more trivial.

- I personally would re-arrange breastplate and brigandine to be the high armor/low dex cap armors for medium armor, since they are theoretically the most restrictive, with scalemail and chainmail being a little more mobile, and hide armor obviously being the most mobile.

- Higher dex armors need to have reason to wear them. As such, i think the higher the dex bonus, the lower the ASF and armor check penalty should be.

- Padded armor is the last step between armor and cloth. In its current incarnation, it has the same Armor check as leather armor, but 2 higher max dex bonus, which makes it a somewhat appealing option for people within a very limited range of dexterity. Because my suggested proposition keeps the Armor Check Penalty the same between leather and padded, Padded needs that extra edge - which i propose becomes extra max dex bonus. I do not feel this is imbalanced, because it requires a very high dex character to fully take advantage of.

My suggested tweak to your suggestion comes out looking like this:



Heavy
Full Plate: AC 9 + MD 1 = 10; ASF 40%, ACP -7
Half Plate: AC 8 + MD 2 = 10; ASF 40%, ACP -7
Banded Mail: AC 7 + MD 3 = 10; ASF 35%, ACP -6
Splint Mail: AC 6 + MD 4 =10; ASF 35%, ACP - 6



Medium
Brigandine: AC 7 + MD 2 = 9; ASF 30%, ACP -5
Breastplate: AC 7 + MD 2 = 9; ASF 30%, ACP -5
Chainmail: AC 6 + MD 3 = 9; ASF 25%, ACP -4
Scale Mail: AC 6 + MD 3 = 9; ASF 25%, ACP -4
Hide Armor: AC 5 + MD 4 = 9; ASF 20%, ACP -3



Light
Chain Shirt: AC 4 + MD 4 = 8; ASF 20%, ACP -2
Studded Leather: AC 3 + MD 5 = 8; ASF 15%, ACP -1
Leather Armor: AC 2 + MD 6 = 8; ASF 10%, ACP -0
Padded Armor: AC 1 + MD 8 = 9; ASF 5%, ACP -0


None of that seems unreasonable to me.

Aelonwy
05-23-2011, 10:25 AM
I've always felt the armor stats in DnD were rather arbitrary and a little counter intuitive in some cases. I would applaud either the OP's or Brennie's suggested changes to armor.

My only suggestion is a tangent to the topic.... I would like more armor types in the game to have the mithral property. Why for instance are there no random generated mithral scale armors?

RumbIe
05-23-2011, 10:40 AM
Ahh the AC debate. Truthfully I think in order for AC to mean anything it needs to be looked at differently and not just the ole "let's boost AC for gear" or "let's lower mob attacks at epic or high levels"

How about we change it from an all or nothing system to something that still gives value to higher AC though not a complete miss. So let's say you have a 60 AC running an Epic quest. It's useless right? Well that means it's no different then the guy with 20 AC, but why should that be right? I mean if someone swung a sword at you wearing full plate, even though it may not fully stop the blade it must slow it down more than if you were wearing a robe right?

So why not incorporate a damage reduction into it more? So if the mobs has a low roll then maybe they miss against a higher AC, but if it's an ok roll they only do x% damage or some reduction based on a sliding scale of sorts. A natural 20 does full damage regardless, but up until then make AC mean something. So a 19 against someone with an AC of 20 maybe does 100 damage, but if you have a 60 AC maybe it only does 40 damage and for an AC of 40 it does 60. (Just as an example of course with no real numbers behind my logic :)) Also it would be level and attack roll dependent.

I have no idea how the numbers should play out or what makes sense, but it seems to me it should not be an all or nothing thing regardless of how PnP is designed. Having a "pretty good" AC should have some benefit and not be on par with 0 AC at higher levels.

With this perhaps evasion would be redesigned as well to add some form of AC bonus for melee attacks. I mean a speedy monk or rogue, while they may only be wearing light armor or robes can dodge a bit better.

Just saying maybe the whole thing needs to be looked at in a different perspective rather than shifting numbers around.

Brennie
05-24-2011, 03:47 AM
(...). Why for instance are there no random generated mithral scale armors?

Because it doesn't scale well. Bwa haha :D Seriously though, i have no idea. Probably because teh devs realized pretty quickly that anything outside of breastplate and fullplate for medium and heavy armor is vendortrash at best.


Ahh the AC debate. (...)

I don't mean to step on the OPs toes here, but I think this topic has less to do with "AC" and more to do with "Balancing various base armor types within their weight category". AC is definatly an issue that needs addressing, and you have some good ideas, here I think its nearly off topic :P

donfilibuster
05-24-2011, 05:42 AM
Just saying maybe the whole thing needs to be looked at in a different perspective rather than shifting numbers around.

I prefer shifting numbers around to redesign the whole thing.
And midways between those two extremes is having more AC options worth taking.

Aesop
05-24-2011, 06:03 AM
damn don't have time for a full post.


I'll highlight this so I can comment after work.


Aesop

Aesop
05-24-2011, 04:26 PM
Alright now my turn


AC MD ACP ASF Mitigation Blocking DR Bonus Type
1 11 1 5% 1% 1 Padded
2 10 1 5% 1% 1 Leather
3 9 2 10% 1% 1 Studded Leather
4 8 2 10% 1% 2 Chain Shirt

4 8 3 15% 3% 2 Chain Mail
5 7 3 15% 3% 2 Breast Plate
6 6 4 20% 3% 3 Brigandine
7 5 4 25% 3% 3 Hide
8 4 4 25% 3% 4 Scale

8 4 5 30% 5% 4 Splint
9 3 5 30% 5% 4 Banded
10 2 6 35% 5% 5 Half Plate
11 1 6 35% 5% 5 Full Plate


Lighter Armor leaves room for Evasion so the heavier armor can have a higher Mitigation percent.

Armor does more than just deflect blows that are not square it also helps absorb a little of the damage as well.

Armor Specialization Feat could add a few things

+1 Max Dex
+2 Blocking DR
-1 ACP
-5% ASF
Increase Mitigation (could go a number of ways for this maybe as much as double it or a flat increase)

It also leads to a slightly different idea about what to do for the finesse feat as well.

Aesop

Sebastrd
05-24-2011, 04:44 PM
I don't mean to step on the OPs toes here, but I think this topic has less to do with "AC" and more to do with "Balancing various base armor types within their weight category". AC is definatly an issue that needs addressing, and you have some good ideas, here I think its nearly off topic :P


I prefer shifting numbers around to redesign the whole thing.
And midways between those two extremes is having more AC options worth taking.

You guys got it exactly. ;)

Aelonwy
05-24-2011, 07:46 PM
Because it doesn't scale well. Bwa haha :D Seriously though, i have no idea. Probably because teh devs realized pretty quickly that anything outside of breastplate and fullplate for medium and heavy armor is vendortrash at best.

[QUOTE=donfilibuster;3815388]I prefer shifting numbers around to redesign the whole thing.
And midways between those two extremes is having more AC options worth taking.

Well in answer to that... if the OP's or Brennie's or Aesop's suggested changes were made live then more armor styles would be considered useful thus more styles being mithril would not only makes sense but open up even more options.

For instance, the OP's suggestions would thus:

Medium
Scale Mail: AC 7 + MD 3 = 10 Mithral Max Dex +2 = 12 Total
Basically the same max dex as Studded Leather is currently.

Bonus scale mail looks so much nicer than a breastplate!

Brennie
05-24-2011, 07:59 PM
Well in answer to that... if the OP's or Brennie's or Aesop's suggested changes were made live then more armor styles would be considered useful thus more styles being mithril would not only makes sense but open up even more options.

I agree, and was thinking this when i responded (And kinda forgot to really point out that train of thought). If more armors become useful, then their drop rates should be tweaked, and their material-property chances should also be tweaked.

I'd also like to see something a bit more cool happen to the possible material types non-metal armors (hide, leather, studded leather, padded). Darkweave is the only thing i know of, and it is rather "meh". A mithril-like max dex increase type would be neat, so would a adamantine-like DR. And hide has all kinds of cool possibilities (WinterWolf Hide = inherent minor cold resist, Owlbear Hide = 2/- DR, Displacerbeast hide = Higher max dex/lower ASF and Armor penalty)

Aelonwy
05-26-2011, 04:17 PM
I'd also like to see something a bit more cool happen to the possible material types non-metal armors (hide, leather, studded leather, padded). Darkweave is the only thing i know of, and it is rather "meh". A mithril-like max dex increase type would be neat, so would a adamantine-like DR. And hide has all kinds of cool possibilities (WinterWolf Hide = inherent minor cold resist, Owlbear Hide = 2/- DR, Displacerbeast hide = Higher max dex/lower ASF and Armor penalty)

While I like where you're going here... to make this feasible we'd have to have Owlbears and Displacer beasts to fight .(hint hint devs!)