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stille_nacht
05-21-2011, 02:30 PM
Look, im not a big fan of PvP/etc.etc.insertunpopulartopic either, but some people genuinely do have interest in it. If you disagree with something, present rational, and preferably calm arguments against it

example-

irrational trolling- "no, i hate pvp, i would pay money to see all the pvping morons be quiet about their dumb impossible ideas"
rational disagreement- "no, i dont think pvp is possible due to the way that DDO is designed, as a PvE experience, in addition, i really think devs should spend time expanding the DDO map as a pose to working on pvp"

same goes for anything else. Be rational. Follow forum rules. Dont troll.

main idea- i am saying to "not troll" in general, using a commonly trolled topic, PvP, as an example, this is not a thread that is for or against pvp

EDIT- i define trolling here as- an argument that is both rude/abrasive and comprises of no evidence or rational argument. the rude/abrasive part is more important than the nonrational argument (if there is no rudeness, then its just an unsupported argument, not trolling)
NO WHERE DO I SAY YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DISAGREE, just disagree in a rational, non name-calling way ya?

EDIT- the large majority of the topics and threads on the DDO forum are free from trolling, with good advice, no insults, and much math-fu, it is not actually prevalent in the forums yet, its not really a "you cant stop people because its done all the time here" problem yet.

pie2655
05-21-2011, 02:52 PM
And dont say something off-topic in a thread abouut adding a new PVP mode.
"Saying PvP is a waste of dev time" is off topic.

norman_quickfinger
05-21-2011, 03:07 PM
He has a point this is a general forum area. They do have a pvp forum for pvp topic. Also anytime pvp is brought up it brings out the trolls in force. This game was never meant for pvp. It was added to waste time while filling raid groups. The classes are not blanced to work against each but with each other. So any balancing for pvp will affect pve. And that wouldn't be good in any way shape or form. Turbine would lose to many players for it. There are other games that are built for pvp. Not this one. I'm not being a troll I'm telling you how it is.

Kalari
05-21-2011, 03:10 PM
I don't quite see the point of this thread, whether a person wants to say they do not like pvp with a short statement or a wall of text the sentiment will always be the same. Either way telling people not to troll is like putting out fish around alley cats and telling them not to feed.

If you really support bringing pvp changes to the game your going to have to deal with those who think its a waste of time, not fitting for ddo and all other forms of anti pvp arguments. If you cannot handle such then I would not bother petitioning for any such changes. Point blank no matter how good a person thinks a game changing suggestion is there will always be those against it. If you believe pvp will help bring more players and revenue to the game state you piece and move on. Arguing with those against it will just get your threads closed.

But as I type this I know I am wasting my time, especially when I see lines like "oh only haters are against pvp cause I pown them in the pits." Its really hard to back up such mentalities to be honest.

stille_nacht
05-21-2011, 03:12 PM
And dont say something off-topic in a thread abouut adding a new PVP mode.
"Saying PvP is a waste of dev time" is off topic.

it is not off topic considering devs have limited time on their hands, it effects whether or not a decision should be made.

but away from that, this thread does not endorse or reject PvP, i just use that as an example, the main idea is to "not troll" with an example to clarify the issue

stille_nacht
05-21-2011, 03:16 PM
I don't quite see the point of this thread, whether a person wants to say they do not like pvp with a short statement or a wall of text the sentiment will always be the same. Either way telling people not to troll is like putting out fish around alley cats and telling them not to feed.

If you really support bringing pvp changes to the game your going to have to deal with those who think its a waste of time, not fitting for ddo and all other forms of anti pvp arguments. If you cannot handle such then I would not bother petitioning for any such changes. Point blank no matter how good a person thinks a game changing suggestion is there will always be those against it. If you believe pvp will help bring more players and revenue to the game state you piece and move on. Arguing with those against it will just get your threads closed.

But as I type this I know I am wasting my time, especially when I see lines like "oh only haters are against pvp cause I pown them in the pits." Its really hard to back up such mentalities to be honest.

you can have a short statement or a wall of text, as long as it follows rational grounds it is not troling, i have seen plenty of rational anti-pvp arguments. not all anti-pvp is trolling, but it is rather common, my main concern is that this is the beginning of a larger trend of "trollwhatidontlike", i would not want this forum to start to resemble the starcraft broodwar forum i saw long ago, where almost any suggestion was trolled the heck out of.

yes, you can deal with trolling, this is hardly justification for it. my little sister could deal with it if i decided to yell abuse at her once a day, this does not mean she should have to.

Kalari
05-21-2011, 03:18 PM
it is not off topic considering devs have limited time on their hands, it effects whether or not a decision should be made.

but away from that, this thread does not endorse or reject PvP, i just use that as an example, the main idea is to "not troll" with an example to clarify the issue

Yes but what you may consider to be trolling could just be to the person typing it a way of showing their lack of interest in the topic. And until the rules of the forums change to say opposing a persons ideas is against the forum rules then there really is nothing a person for pvp or any game changing ideas can do but put forth their ideas and try not to mix it up with those against.

I think out of many posters here I know what its like to have suggestions shot down because its a waste of devs time. I remember asking for housing and getting people who either just said no, not signed or blatantly attacked my idea saying I wanted to make ddo the next wow clone..really since I love that game soo much :rolleyes:

Even with those who agreed and wanted the time sink they spent more time arguing with those who did not want housing then getting our point across till I realized its not worth it. Having pages of back and forth with those who are not interested gets no one no where, let them have their say and continue to push forth your idea. Either people against will get bored and move on or do something blatantly harassing and get into trouble. Either way too many people focus on those against their ideas instead of putting forth the idea itself.

Chai
05-21-2011, 03:18 PM
And dont say something off-topic in a thread abouut adding a new PVP mode.
"Saying PvP is a waste of dev time" is off topic.

Incorrect. Its an opinion. The mods decide whats on topic, you do not.

Now "go start your own thread if you dont agree" (which I have seen a decent amount of in those threads) on the other hand....is trolling.

I realize people get frustrated when theres alot of disagreement, but the trolling on those wonderful PVP threads is far from one sided.

The PVP crowd will have to convince Turbine its something the majority (who doesnt post here btw) wants. Becomming forum cops and telling those who disagree to go somewhere else if they dont like it is not only against the forum rules itself, its also not going to win you that argumement, not only not in a quality based manner, but in a quantity based manner as well. In order to convince people, you will have to challenge what they believe, and not simply rules lawyer the situation to protect and confirm what you already believe, then tell everyone esle they arent welcome.

Uska
05-21-2011, 03:18 PM
And dont say something off-topic in a thread abouut adding a new PVP mode.
"Saying PvP is a waste of dev time" is off topic.

Disagree myself and others think dev time spent on pvp is better spent on content for the majority

stille_nacht
05-21-2011, 03:21 PM
Yes but what you may consider to be trolling could just be to the person typing it a way of showing their lack of interest in the topic. And until the rules of the forums change to say opposing a persons ideas is against the forum rules then there really is nothing a person for pvp or any game changing ideas can do but put forth their ideas and try not to mix it up with those against.

I think out of many posters here I know what its like to have suggestions shot down because its a waste of devs time. I remember asking for housing and getting people who either just said no, not signed or blatantly attacked my idea saying I wanted to make ddo the next wow clone..really since I love that game soo much :rolleyes:

Even with those who agreed and wanted the time sink they spent more time arguing with those who did not want housing then getting our point across till I realized its not worth it. Having pages of back and forth with those who are not interested gets no one no where, let them have their say and continue to push forth your idea. Either people against will get bored and move on or do something blatantly harassing and get into trouble. Either way too many people focus on those against their ideas instead of putting forth the idea itself.

doesnt matter what i consider trolling, forum rules clarify it as: "abrasive and insulting" remarks. Comments that follow a logical pattern and present reasonable arguments are not trolling, comments that post only an opinion and several insults are trolling.

troll vs. nontroll, one provides evidence and does not insult, the other does not provide evidence and does insult.

Kalari
05-21-2011, 03:27 PM
doesnt matter what i consider trolling, forum rules clarify it as: "abrasive and insulting" remarks. Comments that follow a logical pattern and present reasonable arguments are not trolling, comments that post only an opinion and several insults are trolling.

troll vs. nontroll, one provides evidence and does not insult, the other does not provide evidence and does insult.

So let me get this straight /not signed to you in any variation of the word is trolling? Okay I get it now good luck pushing your opinion across but honestly this thread is not going to be the one to get me banned no matter how tempting it is.

/cya oops maybe I shouldnt put the / it may offend the op..:rolleyes:

PwnHammer40K
05-21-2011, 03:35 PM
what

cdemeritt
05-21-2011, 03:48 PM
look... when a post includes the line:

"And what are your thoughts/opinions" or "discuss", or any other comment asking me if I am interested in said changes.

"/not signed and a waste of dev time" is not Trolling... you asked me what I think. I don't intend to get drawn into wasting my time arguing with you about any topic...


Not agreeing with you is not "Trolling"

If you don't like the answers, don't ask the question.

stille_nacht
05-21-2011, 03:57 PM
So let me get this straight /not signed to you in any variation of the word is trolling? Okay I get it now good luck pushing your opinion across but honestly this thread is not going to be the one to get me banned no matter how tempting it is.

/cya oops maybe I shouldnt put the / it may offend the op..:rolleyes:

??? if you see notsigned with no insults tacked on as "rude an abrasive", then yes, but i am fairly certain most people dont.

however if notsigned also includes an argument under it compromised mostly of insults and no evidence, then yes, that would be trolling.

In_Like_Flynn
05-21-2011, 04:00 PM
There are as many who troll pro [topic] as anti. The cure is obvious: no posting on the forums.

stille_nacht
05-21-2011, 04:02 PM
There are as many who troll pro [topic] as anti. The cure is obvious: no posting on the forums.

actually a more obvious answer is to prevent trolling? most of the topics here are free of trolling, with much math, spreadsheets, etc.

In_Like_Flynn
05-21-2011, 04:09 PM
actually a more obvious answer is to prevent trolling? most of the topics here are free of trolling, with much math, spreadsheets, etc.
Sense of humour fail.

Memnir
05-21-2011, 04:09 PM
The only arbiter we have for what is trolling and what is not is the Mods. If you see a post which you feel is trolling - report it. Because what one person feels is a non-constructive and abrasive comment may not be what another person feels is a non-constructive and abrasive comment. They may have meant what they said, and may not see how it could be construed as off-topic or even rude. They may not see their reply to the topic as being against the rules.

Also, a comment that offends or is considered rude by another forum-user may not actually be in violation of community guidelines. They may see it as trolling or as being offensive for reasons that are entirely their own subjective approach to the topic at-hand, and not for actually breaking the ULA or community rules.


People won't stop trolling. This is the internet - and it is what some people do on the internet. Heck, most of people who post on a forum will troll at some point even if they don't think of it as being so. Posts like this will not stem the tide, and ultimately don't do anything to achieve their intended goal, and often degenerate into flame-fests and (ironically) troll-baiting.

If you really want to do something about trolling - hit report and call the post to the attention of people who can do something about it.

Chai
05-21-2011, 04:11 PM
look... when a post includes the line:

"And what are your thoughts/opinions" or "discuss", or any other comment asking me if I am interested in said changes.

"/not signed and a waste of dev time" is not Trolling... you asked me what I think. I don't intend to get drawn into wasting my time arguing with you about any topic...


Not agreeing with you is not "Trolling"

If you don't like the answers, don't ask the question.

This.

justagame
05-21-2011, 04:26 PM
Leaving aside the personal insults (which I agree don't belong here), it is equally unfair to exclude the view of those who don't like what emphasis on pvp has done to the flavor, feel, and player base of other MMO's, and desperately hope to avoid that here.

Many people have seen this movie before: It starts by striving for 'balance', which consists of a series of nerfs based on who is crying the loudest. Then, let's add more options to keep it interesting. Maybe team vs team, or even guild vs guild. Even better, let's add rewards that accrue based on pvp prowess. (Ala guild buffs). Of course, it now caters to specific toons, hecause half the population has had its better abilities nerfed due to compaining. Along the way, the PvE experience is inevitably affected, due to nerfs, changes to balance the nerfs, further changes to re-balance the changes, etc. Spillover happens -- for example, we've definitely had non-epic play affected by changes that were aimed at improving the epic experience. Anyway, it continues, to the point where more and more of the population is doing pvp instead of questing, and immersed in their own pvp prowess. And what's left of the D&D experience is dead.

So yes, anytime someone brings up a great new thing for pvp, many of us will opposite it on that principle, we don't WANT this game to end up like so many of the other MMO's that have more prominent PvP. I completely agree that the personal insults don't belong in the conversation, but let's not pretend that opposing pvp is completely irrational or off-topic. It's no worse than any of the following (all of which are annoying, but I note none are banned):

- Whenever someone asks how to make their battlecleric more effective, telling him to roll a fvs instead, or posts about how every battlecleric they've met was gimped.

- Whenever someone asks how to improve their ranger AA build, calling AA gimped dps, and suggesting that tempest would be a better option.

- Whenever someone asks which feats will help their THF character, posting how THF isn't true dps unless you have an ESOS, and telling him to re-roll as a twf

- When someone asks how to spec for better damage a specific spell, posting that you think that spell is OP in the first place and should be nerfed.

I could go on, but you get the idea. All of the above are annoying, but I don't see those posts being declared off-limits.

As long as personal insults are avoided, I see no reason why opposing pvp enhancements should be off-limits. It isn't "trolling" to disagree with the premise of the OP.

redoubt
05-21-2011, 05:17 PM
And dont say something off-topic in a thread abouut adding a new PVP mode.
"Saying PvP is a waste of dev time" is off topic.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? He asked if we would pay the money and why. I answered. AND I included two reasons why. One is what you said here. That is, that I would prefer the devs make other quests rather than PvP. The second, is about balance.

If one feels that PvP is a waste of time, that opinion was actually a direct response to the question asked, and thus is completely on topic. (The "you sucK" or "shutup" posts are not, that I agree on.)

Aashrym
05-21-2011, 05:22 PM
And dont say something off-topic in a thread abouut adding a new PVP mode.
"Saying PvP is a waste of dev time" is off topic.

Say PvP is waste of dev time is very much a valid opinion and on topic.

I want the devs to add more quests, complete PRE's, add classes, add spells, fix bugs, and possible offer more equipment options.

It's an opinion and other opinions may vary, but it's definitely on topic.

Kominalito
05-21-2011, 05:35 PM
remember, internets...

...one man's soft spoken opinion is another's brash abrasive trolololol-bait.

stille_nacht
05-21-2011, 05:48 PM
remember, internets...

...one man's soft spoken opinion is another's brash abrasive trolololol-bait.

hmm true, well, lets at least avoid insults when debating :P, i think we can generally agree that intelligence insults are trolling right?


also, lol, my OP got negged, because wanting people to debate rationally is bad :P

hityawithastick
05-22-2011, 02:21 PM
WHILE I respect the goal and I too would truly wish for people to respond to opening posts in this or ANY forum with intelligent, courteous, and rational thoughts--after all, we are all comrades in this war against the MOBs, are we not?--and while I hope that those whose only opinion of PvP is that it should be removed would simply not reply to PvP suggestions and speak simply with the vast weight of their silence...and while I believe that the forums would be a better place if we all took a moment before posting to read the OP and try, try with all our hearts to see things from the other person's point of view...



...good luck with that. :D



Welcome to teh internets.

Vint
05-22-2011, 02:38 PM
I'll play your game OP. Can you give a percentage of people that would rather have more PVP or more PVE? I think I know the answer to the question already. If it is in fact PVE, you will have alot of people pi$$ed of that Turbine would invest in the minority and not the majority.

I hope this is not offensive. If so you can neg rep me again.

Cordovan
05-23-2011, 04:26 PM
This thread can end now.