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Xenostrata
05-09-2011, 07:53 PM
This has probably been suggested before.

Also, I purposely omitted a very important point in the title: I want all raid loot taken from 20th turn ins to be changed to BTA. I thought this one might get more readers :p.

The purpose of binding most raid loot is to prevent people from looting everything they find, in the event that they either have an alt that could use it or think that they might have an alt that could use it at some unforeseen point in the future.

However, the loot you get from the turn in is not available to other people. There is no unbalancing from making it BTA, because there is no greed involved: you are going to get the loot no matter what.

This is especially appealing, since a lot of the time you will run a raid to 20 and find yourself not needing anything on the list (maybe a +3 tome). For VON specifically, I know a lot of people who run eVON are getting a lot of vendor trash from those extra completion bonuses. I myself have my Sorceror close to 20 on VON, and is going to be severely annoyed if he gets the SoS my other toon could use instead.

If you think this is too OP, fine. Make it BTA and BTC on equip. That way there still isn't sharing around of raid loot, but you can still do something with that extra loot that you probably won't need (or you could see exactly what another toon needs, and grab that instead of what you were aiming at in case the list doesn't have what you are looking for)

Feel free to /sign or /not sign, but please leave an explanation as to why.

EDIT: So far, additional improvements based on comments (mostly knocking this for being to easy button/OP/etc.) are:

Tomes are excluded, 20th completion tomes remain BTC

Higher ML of BTA for first equip, to prevent twinking high level raid gear items down to low level non-TR toons. (ML would return to normal after first equip, to enable easy TR-twinking later.)

kyleann
05-09-2011, 07:59 PM
/signed

20th completion rewards being BtA and BtC on equip isn't OP, it's ideal. It would be nice to see a change like this, but I'm not going to get optimistic about it...

Cetus
05-09-2011, 08:00 PM
I actually really like this suggestion. Often times, I don't get what I am searching for on 20th end reward lists, so instead of grabbing something useless I can think of my other characters needs.

/signed

toughguyjoe
05-09-2011, 08:00 PM
/Not Signed.

I am philosophically opposed to making loot easier to obtain.

Raids in this game are not difficult.

So I see no point to making it easier.

camels
05-09-2011, 08:04 PM
yes you are right that this has been brought up before.

the main argument is that people will no longer want to share the loot cause since it is BTA, they could all ways use it for a alt. 6 months to a year down the line.


it would make people hoarders and there would be DRAMA!!!

i.e- fighter takes torc because he might roll a caster down the line, while the caster that's sitting right there in the raid is crying in the corner.

let's not make people cry.....

Dysmetria
05-09-2011, 08:16 PM
yes you are right that this has been brought up before.

the main argument is that people will no longer want to share the loot cause since it is BTA, they could all ways use it for a alt. 6 months to a year down the line.


it would make people hoarders and there would be DRAMA!!!

i.e- fighter takes torc because he might roll a caster down the line, while the caster that's sitting right there in the raid is crying in the corner.

let's not make people cry.....I don't understand....how do you share a 20th completion quest reward with anyone else?

redspecter23
05-09-2011, 08:21 PM
The theory behind the idea is great but it basically allows you to almost completely gear out a toon without ever playing any high level content with that particular toon. As an alternative, how about all older raids only? So Von, Titan, DQ, Reaver, Abbot, Shroud could be BTA 20th lists, but the 3 newest raids would still be BTC (Vod, HoX, Tod). As new raids are released the list rotates so when the next high level raid is released, newly looted Vod and/or Hound 20ths become BTA while Tod and "new raid X" are all BtC 20th rewards. This minimizes the grind where it's most grindy, old content.

camels
05-09-2011, 08:21 PM
I don't understand....how do you share a 20th completion quest reward with anyone else?

reading comp. fail.
nvm.

Wizard_Zero
05-09-2011, 08:21 PM
/Not signed. I'm a hoarder, if it raid item was bound to account, I would keep it, even if I never use it. I will always think, "what if I do make a character one day that needs that item."

I'm sure I'm not the only one to think like that. Then you really would have to run every character to 20 completions to get the item you want, cause no one will put things up for roll.

Heck, I would roll on stuff I don't need too, "Just incase."

protokon
05-09-2011, 08:26 PM
not signed.

there was a pretty heavy exploit that i shall not mention that basically allowed this awhile back, allowing certain members of a certain guild to gear up brand new toons extremely quickly...

so tempted to talk about fight club but better not.

anyways, good idea in theory, terrible in practice. the whole bound to account epic pieces at the moment is fubar IMHO, everyone and there mother's pet dog has all the pieces except the one you pulled for there other toon to make the item :rolleyes:. or people take items for characters that dont even exist yet. woohoo.

steelblueskies
05-09-2011, 08:29 PM
/Not signed. I'm a hoarder, if it raid item was bound to account, I would keep it, even if I never use it. I will always think, "what if I do make a character one day that needs that item."

I'm sure I'm not the only one to think like that. Then you really would have to run every character to 20 completions to get the item you want, cause no one will put things up for roll.

Heck, I would roll on stuff I don't need too, "Just incase."

congrats on the failure to read post. see above. end reward list only. what the heck is wrong with people not reading what they respond to even? thats twice this thread alone?

Alizar
05-09-2011, 08:34 PM
Maybe a few of you should actually read the OP.

Sounds like an excellent idea :)

Gol
05-09-2011, 08:36 PM
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/verbal_ddo/ddo_easy_button.jpg

/notsigned

Giving raid gear to characters that have not put in the reps is yet another easy button that we don't need. Just another way to make useless toons look uber. If you put in 40/60/80 reps on a character, you learn more about playing that style of character than you would if you just grind it out on your uber caster that can solo it all and the pass it over to your gimp fighter that you don't have any clue how to play.

haku-ba
05-09-2011, 08:36 PM
I think there are several reasons for making loot BtC.


Encourage loot to be shared amongst players
Stop favoured class(es) of characters being the only ones running a particular raid
Keep players in the game by making them complete the raids on all their different toons to get gear


I think point two and three are quite important, one for the players and one for Turbine. Why should a toon that has never done a reaver have madstone boots? Or why should your [insert favourite toon here] be the one that you run to farm all the gear for your other toons because it is easiest on that one? Turbine allow this a little, but allowing it too much will just mean the player base will become disinterested in the game that much faster. Which leads to the third point.

Turbine needs us to keep playing. Making it easier to get loot for all our toons ultimately means we will most likely lose interest in the game sooner. This means less players or the need for more constant new content. Turbine has to do a fine balancing act to manage the two. It is common to all MMO's. The player base should be careful about demanding making the game easier to get gear, as this leads to other problems that can be far harder to manage than requiring us to grind for the gear we really want.

Grinding for gear is optional. Too much 'uber' gear on all toons cause it is easy to get just makes for a boring game. Some grind is good.

varusso
05-09-2011, 08:36 PM
Some folks dont seem to be getting the point. OP is talking about the 20th completion reward. You cant pass it to another player in a chest. There is no hoarding issue; it cant be rolled on. it is ALWAYS going to be yours, period. BTA then BTC on equip would work fine.

And yes, I might use my 3 mages to get loot for my melee, but so what? I am giving up an item for each of those toons to get one for my melee. *OR* I am getting something useful on the 3 mages who are already geared up, by being able to pass it on. And really, too easy? Its 20 completions. Its fine.

grimblackblade
05-09-2011, 08:37 PM
/signed

Great idea, never thought of this before. Many times I run characters that the raid needs (to get moving faster), not ones that can use the loot. So I end up with 20 completions and having no use for any of the options (see, I read the post). Being able to give it to one of my 23 alts would be nice.

QuantumFX
05-09-2011, 08:44 PM
I like the idea with the addendium of Binds to Character on Equip.

Hendrik
05-09-2011, 08:47 PM
/notsigned!!!!!!

Vehemently opposed to characters getting Raid loot that are NOT in the Raid to loot it.

The benchmark list for a 20/40/60 is for THAT character only. This would open things up for characters that have not even done the raid in question to obtain raid loot by not even running the raid.

Why reward someone for not doing something?

Pape_27
05-09-2011, 08:59 PM
Twinking is bad enough as it is. Now, imagine being able to funnel every piece of raid gear towards one specific toon. Imagine being able to twink a build with a full rack of +3 tomes at level 13? Can you say ultra-uber?

The game is suffering already from power creep. Allowing for this to pass accelerates that power creep in a dramatic fashion.

One of the reasons why raid timers were put in the game (i am guessing here) is to try and slow the farming of rare loot and ingredients used for crafting. If you put the op's suggestion into play, it basically circumvents raid timers for individual characters. It becomes a race to 20, with every alt now funneling the desirable formerly BTC gear to one super twinked account.



/not signed



_

Thrudh
05-09-2011, 09:03 PM
Giving raid gear to characters that have not put in the reps is yet another easy button that we don't need. Just another way to make useless toons look uber. If you put in 40/60/80 reps on a character, you learn more about playing that style of character than you would if you just grind it out on your uber caster that can solo it all and the pass it over to your gimp fighter that you don't have any clue how to play.

I have to agree with this... No good grinding things out with your one best character to get the most powerful loot for your alts who you hardly ever play.

Sweyn
05-09-2011, 09:15 PM
Raids in this game are not difficult.

Exactly, all it is is Grind Grind Grind.

Xenostrata
05-09-2011, 09:34 PM
People are either not reading or not getting this post.

This is for 20th completions only, not loot direct from the warded chests.

This would NOT make twinking all your toons easy using just your highest toon, since it would still take a MINIMUM of 2 months to grind out ONE piece of raid gear.
This would NOT increase hoarding, because there is no one else to give the loot to.

This would NOT be an "easy button", considering its limited use and time restrictions.

This WOULD stop you from wanting to end your own life when you pull a chattering ring on a 0 AC barbarian, or a litany on a paladin, for your 20th reward.

In most cases, it would be VASTLY easier to simply level the toon who wants the loot and have it grind out the raid itself. This is meant primarily as a means to avoid the little quirks of fate that happen at 20th completion turn ins, and to make sure that the valuable 20th completion isn't wasted entirely when you get bad luck on the options.

Pape_27
05-09-2011, 09:38 PM
People are either not reading or not getting this post.

This is for 20th completions only, not loot direct from the warded chests.

This would NOT make twinking all your toons easy using just your highest toon, since it would still take a MINIMUM of 2 months to grind out ONE piece of raid gear.

This would NOT increase hoarding, because there is no one else to give the loot to.

This would NOT be an "easy button", considering its limited use and time restrictions.

This WOULD stop you from wanting to end your own life when you pull a chattering ring on a 0 AC barbarian, or a litany on a paladin, for your 20th reward.

In most cases, it would be VASTLY easier to simply level the toon who wants the loot and have it grind out the raid itself. This is meant primarily as a means to avoid the little quirks of fate that happen at 20th completion turn ins, and to make sure that the valuable 20th completion isn't wasted entirely when you get bad luck on the options.

People are reading the op.

and yeah, it would make twinking a toon real easy.

If you have five toons running towards 20 on timer they all hit approximately at the same time. All of a sudden that particular toon has 5 shots at named raid loot versus 1 in, theoretically, a 60 day period. How does that not lead to power twinking?

/still not signed

Xenostrata
05-09-2011, 09:38 PM
Twinking is bad enough as it is. Now, imagine being able to funnel every piece of raid gear towards one specific toon. Imagine being able to twink a build with a full rack of +3 tomes at level 13? Can you say ultra-uber?

The game is suffering already from power creep. Allowing for this to pass accelerates that power creep in a dramatic fashion.

One of the reasons why raid timers were put in the game (i am guessing here) is to try and slow the farming of rare loot and ingredients used for crafting. If you put the op's suggestion into play, it basically circumvents raid timers for individual characters. It becomes a race to 20, with every alt now funneling the desirable formerly BTC gear to one super twinked account.



/not signed

I can see this being OP.

Add on to the original that Tomes found in 20th completion lists are still BTC, and cannot be twinked.

Wizard_Zero
05-09-2011, 09:46 PM
congrats on the failure to read post. see above. end reward list only. what the heck is wrong with people not reading what they respond to even? thats twice this thread alone?

haha, yeah, my eyes just skim over words sometimes, oh well. Now what is this thread about again?

TheKaige
05-09-2011, 09:51 PM
/signed to BtA for 20th completion rewards.

Xenostrata
05-09-2011, 09:53 PM
People are reading the op.

and yeah, it would make twinking a toon real easy.

If you have five toons running towards 20 on timer they all hit approximately at one time. All of a sudden that particular toon has 5 shots at named raid loot versus 1.

/still not signed

How many times do you reach 20 completions on a raid and still need 5 items that drop there? I can't think of any build/raid combination that combines both that much gear dependancy on a single raid and that low a drop rate.

Even if you managed to time it this perfectly, you would still have 2 months before you had a chance to get those items, in which you would most likely get 1, 2, or even 3 items on that wish list; more if you run with friends/guildies who are willing to give you loot.

This is also assuming that you don't pull anything on the list that the original toons could use for themselves. This whole thing was aimed at people who don't manage to get something useful for themselves. The alternative is generally to vendor the item, which is a painful waste of a 20th completion.

If you are seriously worried about getting ML 13 items from VoD and twinking them down to non-TR alts, then heres a third addition: Raise the ML of the item to the level of the raid minus 1 for first equip, then lower it back to normal for any other equip. This way you could only pass gear over to people who would be running the quest anyway, and it would return to normal for the so-much-more-fair TR twinking system that you would defend to the death*.

*I will probably be neg repped for this, but my system has basically EXACTLY the same result as TR twinking, except that you can't do it with nearly as many items. Passing on of raid loot to a new toon, exploitation of low ML of raid loot, no need to grind out that item on that build. TRs get greensteel, tomes, and all loot found in chests, this would only get loot from 20th completions.

Kahless_of_Cannith
05-09-2011, 10:03 PM
Everything I said ninja'd by others.

Iwinbyrollup
05-09-2011, 10:09 PM
I think this is my favorite possible implementation of the idea I've seen yet, although I think it would still take more work to make not overpowered. The one idea I like best is the BtA, BtC on Equip, if that's possible to set up.

Because yeah, it does take a lot of time to get enough raid gear for all characters if you're using 20th completions. But if you're passing equipment around all the time, then it doesn't take as long. Need Tharne's Goggles? Okay, get a single pair and switch it out. Sure, it's a hassle, but you can do that until your weaker characters can pull their own.

It's also worth noting that the "one 20th completion every 2 months" thing is not entirely accurate. It's not one 20th completion every 2 months. It's up to one 20th completion of every raid on every level-appropriate character you have every 2 months. Even with one character, that's a lot of 20th completions in 2 months. Unless you're absolutely convinced that you desperately need five of every item you want, you're probably going to go a huge way towards gearing multiple characters with only one character. And if you manage to gear a second out, then you've got two working towards more.

And it is unbalancing. Yes, TRs are powerful. This is MORE powerful than TRs. Because at least with TRs, gearing a toon still requires leveling the toon to 20 and running raids. If the character is massively gimp, you're going to have trouble getting the gear you want.

I generally feel like the game already benefits players who have resources on older characters more than newer players, and that puts them at even more of a disadvantage when newer players are less likely to have developed skills and related game knowledge that older players have (note the usage of "less likely"--it is not the case that new players are always less skilled than older players). Between that and the gear advantage that already exists, it is tough to be a new player at times. Giving more power to the older players isn't always better.

I wouldn't be wholly opposed to such a change, but I'd prefer to see something a bit less overpowering. Although I do think this is a step in the right direction with these suggestions and is a significant improvement over the usual "all raid loot BtA" suggestions.

EDIT: In terms of Greensteel...yeah, TRs get GS and these characters wouldn't. GS is pretty easy to get if you have higher level characters anyway. Let them do the farming, pass down the ingredients. All you then need to do is get the shards. I think GS is the one major thing TRs would have over these characters. It's also worth noting when comparing the two is that this would only need to be done once. For a while TRs might seem more powerful because TRs get the contents of chests, but once you've gone, say, 6-8 months with this new system, many players would have built up the gear (some quicker depending on how many toons they have running raids). Compared to TRs, every single character you plan on TRing needs to be geared mostly independently.

khaldan
05-09-2011, 10:10 PM
How many times do you reach 20 completions on a raid and still need 5 items that drop there? I can't think of any build/raid combination that combines both that much gear dependancy on a single raid and that low a drop rate.



Chaosblade, Chaosblade, marilith chain, bracers of the demon consort, torc is the best I can come up with for a capstone TWF paladin.

BotDC are debatable, and I seriously doubt this scenario would happen. Most builds are going to need maybe 1 or 2 pieces of gear from any given raid, which I think was your point.

EDIT:chaosguarde=chaosblade

EustaceTrevelyan
05-09-2011, 10:15 PM
This has probably been suggested before.

Also, I purposely omitted a very important point in the title: I want all raid loot taken from 20th turn ins to be changed to BTA. I thought this one might get more readers :p.

The purpose of binding most raid loot is to prevent people from looting everything they find, in the event that they either have an alt that could use it or think that they might have an alt that could use it at some unforeseen point in the future.

However, the loot you get from the turn in is not available to other people. There is no unbalancing from making it BTA, because there is no greed involved: you are going to get the loot no matter what.

This is especially appealing, since a lot of the time you will run a raid to 20 and find yourself not needing anything on the list (maybe a +3 tome). For VON specifically, I know a lot of people who run eVON are getting a lot of vendor trash from those extra completion bonuses. I myself have my Sorceror close to 20 on VON, and is going to be severely annoyed if he gets the SoS my other toon could use instead.

If you think this is too OP, fine. Make it BTA and BTC on equip. That way there still isn't sharing around of raid loot, but you can still do something with that extra loot that you probably won't need (or you could see exactly what another toon needs, and grab that instead of what you were aiming at in case the list doesn't have what you are looking for)

Feel free to /sign or /not sign, but please leave an explanation as to why.

/signed for bta and btc on equip

It's only partially that they want people to only loot for that char; more powerful things are made btc as well. But i support this, partially

haku-ba
05-09-2011, 10:30 PM
Most builds are going to need maybe 1 or 2 pieces of gear from any given raid ...


I believe this illustrates the point I tried to make in that if characters need only get 1 or 2 pieces of gear from each raid, one toon that does the raids will be enough to gear up pretty much all your other toons.

How? Well you run your wiz through reaver, get all the gear he needs during the runs from drops and rolls. You hit your 20th and sweet, boots drop. Off they go to the new Kensai build I just rolled up. Now you do the same for VoN, bam, fighter now has a SoS. Same for DQ (insert wanted dq loot here), same for ToD and he now has a nice shiny ring on his finger. Not a bad geared fighter for not having done ANY of these raids. Since your running them on your wiz at the same time, in two months you have a nicely equipped new toon with none of the effort.

How is that a good thing? Sure, it makes it easier for us as players, but isn't that just going to lead to a) players running the same toon through the raids and b)not running the raids as often cause your toon already has the gear.

Now imagine if I was doing this with three toons at cap and not just one. You could create new toons and have them fully geared out in no time.

Xenostrata
05-09-2011, 10:30 PM
Chaosblade, Chaosblade, marilith chain, bracers of the demon consort, torc is the best I can come up with for a capstone TWF paladin.

BotDC are debatable, and I seriously doubt this scenario would happen. Most builds are going to need maybe 1 or 2 pieces of gear from any given raid, which I think was your point.

EDIT:chaosguarde=chaosblade

Thank you for finding the one exception :D

Two points to be made on this though:

I haven't done the math, but that chances of getting all 5 of those in the 5 completion lists is (probably) very small; and even if it does happen, odds are that you end up needing to choose between two on one list, then find out you chose the wrong one when you see later lists.

This character will still be grinding out eDQ to get the seals/shards/scrolls to upgrade these items, and unless the best items for that build at level 20 is a full set of non-epic gear (which it might well be) it is probably smarter NOT to twink all those items like that, since you are bound to find some while hunting for epic upgrade materials. You could still twink them just to be safe, but when you end up with 3 chaosblades, 2 SoSs, and a half dozen torcs [/exageration] it might make you feel bad for passing up that +3 tome or any other item that might have been useful to the 5 people pulling the lists (remember, this is pointed at when you don't find something you need on the list- odds are, when you try with 5, you will find something that one of those characters can use).

Xenostrata
05-09-2011, 10:33 PM
I believe this illustrates the point I tried to make in that if characters need only get 1 or 2 pieces of gear from each raid, one toon that does the raids will be enough to gear up pretty much all your other toons.

How? Well you run your wiz through reaver, get all the gear he needs during the runs from drops and rolls. You hit your 20th and sweet, boots drop. Off they go to the new Kensai build I just rolled up. Now you do the same for VoN, bam, fighter now has a SoS. Same for DQ (insert wanted dq loot here), same for ToD and he now has a nice shiny ring on his finger. Not a bad geared fighter for not having done ANY of these raids. Since your running them on your wiz at the same time, in two months you have a nicely equipped new toon with none of the effort.

How is that a good thing? Sure, it makes it easier for us as players, but isn't that just going to lead to a) players running the same toon through the raids and b)not running the raids as often cause your toon already has the gear.

Now imagine if I was doing this with three toons at cap and not just one. You could create new toons and have them fully geared out in no time.

This assumes that you get all these items on the completion lists. Particularly on DQ, having that extra list might not be enough to completely overtwink the fighter. You could still end up with a **** 20th completion list one of those times, and then there will be a 2 month waiting period till you can try again.

Also, I added the caveat of raid appropriate equip MLs- you can only twink onto a character who would be a high enough level to do the raid anyway.

khaldan
05-09-2011, 10:34 PM
Yeah, that was more of me being a bit contrary, that's an absurdly unlikely scenario to have happen.

I do like the idea but I think it would have to be BtCoE, passing a SoS from character to character would be a bit much for my taste.

haku-ba
05-09-2011, 10:37 PM
This assumes that you get all these items on the completion lists. Particularly on DQ, having that extra list might not be enough to completely overtwink the fighter. You could still end up with a **** 20th completion list one of those times, and then there will be a 2 month waiting period till you can try again.

Also, I added the caveat of raid appropriate equip MLs- you can only twink onto a character who would be a high enough level to do the raid anyway.

Certainly, that is a fair point. However, I think you can see that this is much more likely if you run a couple of capped characters through the raids. DQ has, by far, the most loot. The others, except maybe ToD rings, are not unlikely. Either way, I doubt this is going to make the player base want to keep on playing and running raids over the long term and therefore believe it to be an unwise choice for Turbine to make.

I don't like grinding any more than anyone else, but some things you just have to work for.

Xenostrata
05-09-2011, 10:43 PM
Yeah, that was more of me being a bit contrary, that's an absurdly unlikely scenario to have happen.

I do like the idea but I think it would have to be BtCoE, passing a SoS from character to character would be a bit much for my taste.

Yeah, I think my original post of that idea may have come off as a bit oppositional, but I also support that idea.

Waukeen
05-09-2011, 10:52 PM
20th BtA sounds good. All raid loot BtA, no deal.

Xenostrata
05-09-2011, 11:27 PM
A compromise, to those who think this would be ridiculously OP: have 20th completions list the regular BTC raid loot, then have a second list at the bottom of about 1/4 the size made up of BTA/BTCoE.
Not my idea of a perfect option, but feel free to comment on it.

Dragon.Star
05-09-2011, 11:51 PM
Sorry but have to agree with the others, there shouldn't be an easy button. And if they ever went this way, I would hope that they don't do BtC on Equip as that would just mean the Auction House would have more new items.

Pape_27
05-10-2011, 12:24 AM
*I will probably be neg repped for this, but my system has basically EXACTLY the same result as TR twinking, except that you can't do it with nearly as many items. Passing on of raid loot to a new toon, exploitation of low ML of raid loot, no need to grind out that item on that build. TRs get greensteel, tomes, and all loot found in chests, this would only get loot from 20th completions.

You cant always get what you want... but sometimes, you might find... you get what you need...

Alternative
05-10-2011, 12:38 AM
/signed

Also the devs agree with OP already, just look at chronoscope end rewards. Make it the same in case of DQ and other raids, stop the grind. (no sarcasm)

mystafyi
05-10-2011, 03:36 AM
Also the devs agree with OP already, just look at chronoscope end rewards.

After seeing the loot from crystal cove i would have to sadly agree with this ^^

Xenostrata
05-10-2011, 05:08 AM
Sorry but have to agree with the others, there shouldn't be an easy button. And if they ever went this way, I would hope that they don't do BtC on Equip as that would just mean the Auction House would have more new items.

BTA and BTCoE, not one or the other- you'd be able to pass it to an alt through the shared bank and have him use it, but you couldn't sell it on the AH.

fyrst.grok
05-10-2011, 05:21 AM
/signed

As it is now I never run VoD on anything BUT my caster to get those 2 pieces of loot, same with DQ.. only my fvs and caster get's to go...

While it would be an 'easy-button' in some regards it would also mean that you could get a gameflow in stead of waitiing 2 hours to get a raid going because noone want the loot in that particular raid.
Wouldn't feel like a complete waste of time to take an unwanted raid on a toon then.