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View Full Version : Jump: Not a dump skill



Samadhi
05-07-2011, 09:40 PM
Have seen a lot of the mentality recently that Jump should essentially be treated as a dump-skill. The argument, of course, is since it caps at 40, your best case scenario of having +30 to jump from spell or clickie, makes most of your extra points worthless. While this is overwhelmingly true for a best case scenario, myself, I like to plan for a larger variety of scenarios. So here are some fun reasons why jump is not a dump skill.

1) Dispelling - This may be shocking to many of you out there, but there are many mobs out there that will dispel your precious jump clickie. I laugh every time I pug an abbot and watch people who made the ice pad fall to their death because they can't make the jump back.

2) Leveling - Is there any decent jump clickie prior to level 18? With the number of folks out there doing multiple TRing this seems highly relevant for a large portion of the player base, not just new folks.

3) Soloing - Kind of going along with the other two; but apparently necessary to spell out given the amount of people that assume very specific group models in any type of playing. For many of us, if I am not raiding, there is a 99.7% chance that I am solo or shortman with a guildie or two. All kinds of class combinations there that won't have a jump spell between them (/signed on the petition to give jump to bards though ^^)

Long story short, there are a lot of reasons out there to have a good base jump skill. If you don't, you are dead, and great entertainment for those of us that don't always look at best case scenarios as a rule of law.




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AMDarkwolf
05-07-2011, 09:44 PM
yes and no.

I support your thinking, I am along that path(I prefer NOT having less than 40 jumps when 'stripped' of buffs) BUT:

As for leveling... PLENTY of jump potions,(icy potions give 30, and theres still tons of them laying around) and items too for that matter.


IMO 10-15 'base' on a toon with any amount of str is plenty(Gives u 40 before buffs with an +15 item and 30 str/+10 to jump) and ya, u 'CAN" get by with none but like u said, it means u rely on clickies/others and hope u don't get dispelled.


So the argument goes both ways, like the OP said though, consider before u accept the 'its a dump skill' argument.

(The same argument can be made for balance, which many people also consider a 'dump' skill)

stille_nacht
05-07-2011, 09:44 PM
lol, you dont need uber jump to get back onto the abbot platform (and i have never had this problem in 40 runs...), there is no other situation where dispel happens in conjunction with even semi important jump skills.

while levelling, need for jump is rare, and classes that do not inherently want a high str have it as a spell...
(bards can UMD jump btw). If you really want jump, get a wizard or a potion (yeah, its available and not expensive)

cant think of any solo quests that really want jump...

Aashrym
05-07-2011, 09:49 PM
A few ranks in jump is certainly useful. 10-15ish IMO.

You forgot to list it as a PSA tho. ;)

Samadhi
05-07-2011, 09:52 PM
lol, you dont need uber jump to get back onto the abbot platform (and i have never had this problem in 40 runs...), there is no other situation where dispel happens in conjunction with even semi important jump skills.

while levelling, need for jump is rare, and classes that do not inherently want a high str have it as a spell...
(bards can UMD jump btw). If you really want jump, get a wizard or a potion (yeah, its available and not expensive)

cant think of any solo quests that really want jump...

So much misinformation /sigh

"there is no other situation where dispel happens in conjunction with even semi important jump skills" - Hmm... how about a bunch of stuff in the desert, Coal Chamber, The Pit, I know there's some undead quests that I don't know the name of that it is relevant.

Or let's take a better example. The most frequent use I have for jump, is getting out of a pack of mobs trying to corner me / pin me down. Maybe not important to people that don't zerg, but even a lot of new people zerg (if not well), and having them trash jump is just asking to get pinned down and killed.

"(bards can UMD jump btw)" - On the off note this does have some intrinsic value from something I am not familiar with in game, I will allow you to elaborate on this point.

By solo quests, I am referring to every non-raid quest in the game. Thanks for playing. Didn't you just make a post about having versatility in builds and followed it up with this nonsense? Really??

stille_nacht
05-07-2011, 09:55 PM
So much misinformation /sigh

"there is no other situation where dispel happens in conjunction with even semi important jump skills" - Hmm... how about a bunch of stuff in the desert, Coal Chamber, The Pit, I know there's some undead quests that I don't know the name of that it is relevant.

Coal Chamber- jump isnt important (you really need to avoid hitting the ceiling), The pit- jump isnt important (puzzles dont require a lot, just aim), in addition, no dispel in coal chamber, no dispel in pit...

Or let's take a better example. The most frequent use I have for jump, is getting out of a pack of mobs trying to corner me / pin me down. Maybe not important to people that don't zerg, but even a lot of new people zerg (if not well), and having them trash jump is just asking to get pinned down and killed.

getting pinned down can be avoided, and if there are so many that they would have managed it and arent easily killable... icky, really you shouldnt get jump because you planned to be pinned down... because you shouldnt be...

"(bards can UMD jump btw)" - On the off note this does have some intrinsic value from something I am not familiar with in game, I will allow you to elaborate on this point.
what you do is buy a level 1 scroll of jump, then use it, the UMD is really low, which means bards have essentially as many clickies as they want

By solo quests, I am referring to every non-raid quest in the game. Thanks for playing. Didn't you just make a post about having versatility in builds and followed it up with this nonsense? Really??
versatility is one thing, if ppl have points to burn after making their toons more versatile (trapping or umd for instance), then they can put some stuff into jump, but i cant really think of enough quests that really need a good amount of jump to justify spending a significant amount in jump, please refer to a non-raid where jump is really important... im sure there are a few, but i cant think of any.


bold

10 points in jump is good for ppl wout str btw, so they can cap :]

Sweyn
05-07-2011, 10:01 PM
1) Dispelling - This may be shocking to many of you out there, but there are many mobs out there that will dispel your precious jump clickie. I laugh every time I pug an abbot and watch people who made the ice pad fall to their death because they can't make the jump back.

I didn't know jump could be dispelled while in a puzzle....

Samadhi
05-07-2011, 10:02 PM
bold

I can't quote it - but did you really just say there is no dispel in Coal Chamber? I haven't ran pit in a while, I could be wrong there, but I ran CC today. I rarely made it through a minute of haste before needing to recast it they dispel so much in that quest. Sorry dude, but all your credibility is gone in my eyes.

And a level 1 scroll of jump? Do you honestly play such that you have the time to finish a quest in reasonable time while stopping to give yourself +10 to jump every minute?? You do know the duration and amount of bonus does not scale to your level right.... I only know two people that would consider this a realistic way to play.

Veileira
05-07-2011, 10:03 PM
So is balance or jump more important for a cleric? Not many skill points per level you know. ;)

stille_nacht
05-07-2011, 10:03 PM
I can't quote it - but did you really just say there is no dispel in Coal Chamber? I haven't ran pit in a while, I could be wrong there, but I ran CC today. I rarely made it through a minute of haste before needing to recast it they dispel so much in that quest. Sorry dude, but all your credibility is gone in my eyes.

And a level 1 scroll of jump? Do you honestly play such that you have the time to finish a quest in reasonable time while stopping to give yourself +10 to jump every minute?? You do know the duration and amount of bonus does not scale to your level right.... I only know two people that would consider this a realistic way to play.

the scroll last 6 mins if i remember right. (or has that changed?)

coal chamber- dont remember being dispelled all too often at all.... how were you getting dispelled?
also, as i said, you dont need a lot of jump in Coal in the first place, hitting the ceilings (especially with FF), is a bad thing, not a good thing.

you fail to address any of my points about a really high jump not even being requisite in the first place...even if it was only a minute, why do you need constant highjump?

Samadhi
05-07-2011, 10:04 PM
I didn't know jump could be dispelled while in a puzzle....

Do you use a method other than an icepad to avoid Inferno? Granted, a good DPS group oftentimes won't even see an Inferno, but that is a luxury I rarely have these days.

Sirea
05-07-2011, 10:05 PM
how were you getting dispelled?


Gee I dunno, couldn't have anything to do with all the trog shamen all over the place...


Do you use a method other than an icepad to avoid Inferno? Granted, a good DPS group oftentimes won't even see an Inferno, but that is a luxury I rarely have these days.

Other servers fight through the inferno. I personally don't consider this an option because I don't expect the casters and healers to have to chug mana pots after the inferno takes all their mana. Guess we should stop being so considerate.

stille_nacht
05-07-2011, 10:06 PM
Gee I dunno, couldn't have anything to do with all the trog shamen all over the place...

oh right, those ones that i always snipe first... would explain why i dont notice it overmuch

also, you dont need high jump in coal...

Samadhi
05-07-2011, 10:08 PM
So is balance or jump more important for a cleric? Not many skill points per level you know. ;)

I'm not saying I have never dumped it; moreso that it's far from a rule of thumb to only bring it up as high as 10 to "count on" having +30 from a clickie or spell :P I have always regretted dumping it though. But then, at least two of my clerics/FVS started with 14 Int anyway (not sure about the third), so it was never an issue.

Rdonaccount
05-07-2011, 10:17 PM
A few thoughts:

(1) The only builds that would have trouble in abbot getting off the ice platform are low-strength casters who are suffering under other penalties (such as armor checks for clerics in heavy or encumberance). Any strength based character should have enough to make it back on even without any investment, and casters should be able to make other accomodations to make that jump again

(2) ranger can also cast jump. And any tempest splash can take it for one of their 2 spell slots (resist is less important considering the plethora of lvl 7 and 11 resist wands out there, and ship buffs). That'll give +20 jump, cheaply recastable, to any tempest melee (and there are still a lot of them out there).

(3) If none of that has calmed your nerves about Jump, perhaps I should remind you of something that Quarterling often says: halflings are indead the master race. +4 to jump checks, suckers :p

(4) jump in coal is a recipe for disaster, much safer to climb up than try to jump up the invisible slanting walls.

stille_nacht
05-07-2011, 10:19 PM
A few thoughts:

(1) The only builds that would have trouble in abbot getting off the ice platform are low-strength casters who are suffering under other penalties (such as armor checks for clerics in heavy or encumberance). Any strength based character should have enough to make it back on even without any investment, and casters should be able to make other accomodations to make that jump again

(2) ranger can also cast jump. And any tempest splash can take it for one of their 2 spell slots (resist is less important considering the plethora of lvl 7 and 11 resist wands out there, and ship buffs). That'll give +20 jump, cheaply recastable, to any tempest melee (and there are still a lot of them out there).

(3) If none of that has calmed your nerves about Jump, perhaps I should remind you of something that Quarterling often says: halflings are indead the master race. +4 to jump checks, suckers :p

(4) jump in coal is a recipe for disaster, much safer to climb up than try to jump up the invisible slanting walls.
this

additionally, having myself a low str caster (yay), i can say that i have never had trouble getting back on the platform

kyleann
05-07-2011, 10:47 PM
So here are some fun reasons why CON is not a dump Stat.



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Fixed this for you. You can never have it on the forums enough.


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Talon_Moonshadow
05-07-2011, 11:03 PM
Love a high Jump skill.

But few classes have the skill points for it.

Str adds to jump.
Luck bonuses add to it.

Jump items stack with spell/potions.

So you can get by on many classes without it.

But yes...it is very nice to have if you can fit it in.

Ravoc-DDO
05-08-2011, 07:20 AM
10 competence (item) + 10 enhancement (spell/pot) + 10 STR mod gets you 30 already.
If you're monk, add 10 insight (jidz air stance) for a capped 40 jump at low level.

And that's not including skill points & skill boosting buffs yet.

CrushingInklings
05-08-2011, 07:32 AM
I can't quote it - but did you really just say there is no dispel in Coal Chamber? I haven't ran pit in a while, I could be wrong there, but I ran CC today. I rarely made it through a minute of haste before needing to recast it they dispel so much in that quest. Sorry dude, but all your credibility is gone in my eyes.


I feel sorry that you are ascending up coal without invis clickies/scrolls/spell. I might get dispelled while ascending onces every 10+ runs when farming mats or zerg exp farming but the majority of the time the trogs never even see me.

k1ngp1n
05-08-2011, 07:36 AM
(4) jump in coal is a recipe for disaster, much safer to climb up than try to jump up the invisible slanting walls.

Jump is easier, actually. Get some Mario skills.

I agree with the OP. If you have some points to spare, toss em to Jump. Makes a world of difference in non-standard situations.


The pit- jump isnt important (puzzles dont require a lot, just aim)

To solo it you need something like 20 jump. I don't remember the exact number, I go for overkill. Tested it like 6 months ago.


Stevens Point Super 8

And that is creepy. Pointers lead the way?

Arkat
05-08-2011, 07:41 AM
lol, you dont need uber jump to get back onto the abbot platform (and i have never had this problem in 40 runs...), there is no other situation where dispel happens in conjunction with even semi important jump skills.

while levelling, need for jump is rare, and classes that do not inherently want a high str have it as a spell...
(bards can UMD jump btw). If you really want jump, get a wizard or a potion (yeah, its available and not expensive)

cant think of any solo quests that really want jump...

No




So much misinformation /sigh

"there is no other situation where dispel happens in conjunction with even semi important jump skills" - Hmm... how about a bunch of stuff in the desert, Coal Chamber, The Pit, I know there's some undead quests that I don't know the name of that it is relevant.

Or let's take a better example. The most frequent use I have for jump, is getting out of a pack of mobs trying to corner me / pin me down. Maybe not important to people that don't zerg, but even a lot of new people zerg (if not well), and having them trash jump is just asking to get pinned down and killed.

"(bards can UMD jump btw)" - On the off note this does have some intrinsic value from something I am not familiar with in game, I will allow you to elaborate on this point.

By solo quests, I am referring to every non-raid quest in the game. Thanks for playing.

Yes

phillymiket
05-08-2011, 08:21 AM
Jump is very useful but it is a dump stat for my cleric and intimipally.

There are skills more important for their precious few skill point IMO.

Other toons don't tend to get more then 10-15 points.

I generally carry the best jump items i can at level and a clicky for those few times I don't have access to the spell and really need it.

Hasn't caused my death yet that I can recall.

Getting tripped has, hence my preference to balance for the toons mentioned above.

Trowis
05-12-2011, 11:56 PM
I would have to agree with the OP. I have a decently high jump skill[Lvl12-Jump Skill 9; 20 some with random mods[race, str, etc., if I remember correctly]. My party hates 'jump puzzles' because they put no points into it. They can't make even otherwise required jumps in quests[Red fens, anyone? Anyone? No?]. One person actually had themselves killed intentionally, had me carry their stone through the jump area, and then used a cake[This was our cleric, by the way]. The reason being, that their cleric couldn't make the jumps naked with a jump spell, and here I am skipping past about half the required platforms no problem. Tell me Jump should be a dump skill. I don't see your point.

--Trowis

JollySwagMan
05-17-2011, 11:13 PM
Jump is really handy for casters. Casting spells mid-air allows you to maintain more momentum and avoid concentration checks in a crowded situation. (Such as the red-alert zerg that some arcanes/divines prefer). It also helps a low reflex Cleric dodge a random aoe spell, perhaps most notably when raid-healing.

Jump is really handy vs casters, many spells are harder for enemies to land on you when you are jumping around.

Jump is handy vs enemies that like to trip.

Jump is handy for running through quests quicker. Ever stepped into the Kobold's New Ringleader, and realised that you needed a stepping stool? The Partycrashers? Ever farmed the Sands chests? Ever been knocked down by a Giant? Ever stepped into a heavily trapped quest Rogueless? etc.

Ever glided down behind an enemy to deliver a stealthy coup-de-grace?

Jump + Invis is really handy if going xp/min, or you need to rescue a party.


Thankfully, Jump potions are cheap at the vendors and abundant in barrels/crates.

Unfortunately, aside from a high level clickie, the House P buff, an arcane/ranger party member, Icy potions and Cakes, there aren't any Jump spell buffs higher than +10 available that I am aware of. So a player without these resources may need a +Competence item, +Str, Morale and Luck bonuses, especially if it is not a class skill for them.

Personally, almost all of my characters start with a level or Rogue or Monk, and tend to throw in about 4-10 skill points into it. But that's more due to my preference of playing DDO as an action-oriented video game compared to other D&D based games...DDO re-ignited my interest in Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate, but when I started playing them again I yearned for the spacebar...

efreet5
05-17-2011, 11:22 PM
Dude, house p buffs. I have jump after I finish Tangleroot (hard). Every. Single. Character. That plus your str bonus usually equals >40, so...forget jump! And for the people that can't make jumps, I've seen WAAAAAYYY too many people that wanna claim they got skills when they still play this game like any other MMO and do the whole rock 'em sock 'em robots thing against mobs, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's seriously just a lack of coordination and has nothing to do with character stats.

JollySwagMan
05-17-2011, 11:31 PM
And for the people that can't make jumps, I've seen WAAAAAYYY too many people that wanna claim they got skills when they still play this game like any other MMO and do the whole rock 'em sock 'em robots thing against mobs

Hehe

Not everyone has Tangleroot though! Though if reading this forum post, there is perhaps more likelihood that the reader does however?

efreet5
05-17-2011, 11:39 PM
Hehe

Not everyone has Tangleroot though! Though if reading this forum post, there is perhaps more likelihood that the reader does however?

He's mah boy! He's got TR, but he's also afraid to TR, because then he'll end up doing TR more times due to the TR becoming addictive. Also, he's got SOOOOOOO much free time right now he's gotta complain about something, so jumping is first. Next? He's moving onto arguing the benefits of having gear that reduces arcane spell failure for barbarians. :p

MeliCat
05-17-2011, 11:48 PM
Love jump. And has to be my favourite buff of the game. I jump *everywhere*! (yes yes i am one of those really annoying people in Crucible and Bastion because I forget).

Sometimes the best way to avoid damage is up and over... very very useful.


Unfortunately on toons with very few skill points I'm going to do balance over jump as sitting on my a$$ helpless is way more dangerous and there are way too many doggies in this game.

But yes, def not a dump stat. If I can afford it I boost that skill every time I can.

Roaringdragon
05-17-2011, 11:58 PM
Yea, Jump is fun, but not always is the necessary need for the 20+ jump. Had a paladin with 0 jump as skill ranks, and 4 or was it 6 modified, wore a full plate so wore down to -1 or 1 jump, never had a jumping problem with Pit still :). Although it would've helped quite a bit if I had the jump spell cast on me at lvl 7. Mostly you just need a 10-15 ish for most everything, sometimes required skills, I find the scroll helps in certain situations even though 1 min and +10 only.

sirgog
05-18-2011, 12:41 AM
the scroll last 6 mins if i remember right. (or has that changed?)

coal chamber- dont remember being dispelled all too often at all.... how were you getting dispelled?
also, as i said, you dont need a lot of jump in Coal in the first place, hitting the ceilings (especially with FF), is a bad thing, not a good thing.

you fail to address any of my points about a really high jump not even being requisite in the first place...even if it was only a minute, why do you need constant highjump?

You get chain dispelled in Coal on all difficulties (possibly excluding Casual, I've never run it on casual).

So much so that when farming it, I'll wear Kundarak Delving Boots and a 20/30 resist ring for each of Acid and Electric.


That said, Coal is a quest where I am always very glad not to have invested skill points into Jump. Much better to have small, controlled jumps than to have big jumps where you hit an invisible wall and get shot out into the centre by it.

Faent
05-18-2011, 01:24 AM
If you can dump points in Jump, do it. 10 to 15 points in Jump should be fine for most. Don't sacrifice other skills you need to do so, but if you can do, do it.

JollySwagMan
05-18-2011, 01:17 PM
Hehe

Not everyone has Tangleroot though! Though if reading this forum post, there is perhaps more likelihood that the reader does however?

And this would be my first visit from the Neg Rep Fairy.

EDIT: And now my first visit from the Mystical Rep-Fixing Ninja Mod. Thanks :)