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SensaiRyu
05-02-2011, 09:45 AM
So, I'm on my second life... I do remember my monk leading most of the kill counts on first life.
Second life - I seem to be killing faster. Probably the equips (Charged Gauntlets for one) and that my dex isn't in the clouds like my first life build.

But, my kill count close to doubles that of those around me (except other monks). Some kills are 100% mine, others are stolen. I figure high kill counts is usual for monks - except in the Shroud :D

Is this a result of having a high attack speed? Whatever the reason, monks seem to make a great support character for DPSers, we can finish off monsters others take a chunk out of - reduces mob size fast.

TheDearLeader
05-02-2011, 09:50 AM
Are you pugging? 'Cause pugs suck. When I join a pug, I instantly start performing horribly.

Other than that, some have equated Monk/Barb kill counts to the faster movement speed. In a dynamic, constantly progressing game such as DDO, classes with higher movement speeds will close the distance between enemies faster, and therefore have less time moving, and more time in target engagement.

And unlike Barbs, as a Monk you're probably not getting hit each-and-every-time a mob swings at you. :)

Also, is your name Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo, or Raphael? Do you like Pizza, hang out with a Reporter with a bad haircut and a weird jumpsuit, and have a Rat for a mentor?

If so, you're a Ninja Turtle, and you're awesome, and well over explains the kill count difference between you and non-Ninja-Turtles.

SetofBs
05-02-2011, 11:39 AM
DearLeader basically nailed it. PUGs suck. My dex based light monk basically always leads the kill count by a large margin, while needing little to no healer support. The only time she gets a run for her money is when there is a decent TR melee in the group.

Think about your average low to mid-level PUG. You have a healer that kills basically nothing because he's a healbot with 10 con. You have a caster that throws a few firewalls here and there and kills a few things. You have a fighter/barb that takes a lot of damage and does kill stuff but isn't optimized or twinked in any way. You have a ranger that pew pews from the back and is basically a piker that doesn't know it. Then there's the rogue that thinks his job is to get traps. And your monk. Why wouldn't you lead the kill count?

Deathlos
05-02-2011, 11:41 AM
Monks rock. duh

we will always be near the top of the kill count, since we are faster then everyone else, thus reach the mobs 1st. a quick stun. and thier dead before the rest of the party reaches you. your on the second mob before anyone reaches you. and youve got him low enough, that one swing of the second fastest preps you for your next swing and thus killshot.

Its just anther reason kill counts mean jack squat.

But its always fun to insult your barb friends and tell em their being beat by a ac monk:P

RudyMcghee
05-02-2011, 11:43 AM
The increased attack speed and flurry of fists also pretty much guarantee that you will hit last if you are both swinging at the same person. I have been in a party with several competent melees, but at the rate monks attack getting the last hit is just going to happen. The barb may hit harder, but you hit more and faster. This is one reason kill counts mean so little.

Qezuzu
05-02-2011, 11:45 AM
Assassin rogue will always dominate the killcount :) at least if moderately experienced.

Assassinate can be used over and over again... and it can kill 2 or more things at once. And it works in epic now.

And the chance to instantly slay a weak(ened) opponent with no save.

DragonMageT
05-02-2011, 11:48 AM
Answer: 2nd Life + Gear

Run against some equally geared + TR Barbs or Fighters and they will give you a run for that kill count lead.
Tip: Just stay 1 or 2 levels above them and you should be fine on the kill count :)

TheDearLeader
05-02-2011, 11:51 AM
Answer: 2nd Life + Gear

Run against some equally geared + TR Barbs or Fighters and they will give you a run for that kill count lead.
Tip: Just stay 1 or 2 levels above them and you should be fine on the kill count :)

I think up to at least a certain point, the monk will still outperform. Faster than the fighter, more survivable than the barb. Less time needed to hang back and chug a pot or whatever.

Cam_Neely
05-02-2011, 12:00 PM
Other than that, some have equated Monk/Barb kill counts to the faster movement speed. In a dynamic, constantly progressing game such as DDO, classes with higher movement speeds will close the distance between enemies faster, and therefore have less time moving, and more time in target engagement.

Thats just all the lessers speaking. Its a count of the last hit not the first hit. Granted on my barb, they are the same thing though the first half of life :p

Ya, if you are pugging and on a TR then you should cut your kills in a third and use that to judge (if you use kill count to judge that is).

DragonMageT
05-02-2011, 12:03 PM
I think up to at least a certain point, the monk will still outperform. Faster than the fighter, more survivable than the barb. Less time needed to hang back and chug a pot or whatever.

Agree up to Level 12/13...then all bets are off. Putting my bets on the TR Barb or Fighter.

Your title is high kill counts not what toon is more survivable. :)

TheDearLeader
05-02-2011, 12:06 PM
Agree up to Level 12/13...then all bets are off. Putting my bets on the TR Barb or Fighter.

Your title is high kill counts not what toon is more survivable. :)

Not my title, but yeah...

Survivable means more time in combat, less time healing. If a monk gets in the last swing while the barb is chugging a pot, the monk "gets" that kill.

A TR Monk *may* still be rocking the AC necessary to perform admirably @ 12/13. I mean, that's barely into Gianthold territory.

Darkrok
05-02-2011, 12:09 PM
Three things are needed to dominate the kill count:
1) Good damage. Doesn't need to be top-notch, just good.
2) Faster movement speed.
3) Knowledge of spawn points as well as kill selection. The quickest targets to kill (casters) are normally the ones that need to die first strategically as well. Going for the squishy targets first will allow you to pad kill count, and it's strategically correct in most situations as well.

Obviously having better gear than other people helps as well. Being a full dps build can help if you've got heals strapped to you. But none of those things matter if the other members of the group killing things before you even get to them.

Absolute-Omniscience
05-02-2011, 12:11 PM
I think up to at least a certain point, the monk will still outperform. Faster than the fighter, more survivable than the barb. Less time needed to hang back and chug a pot or whatever.

The only place where monks really shine is in the low-end game. Stuff like amrath, vale, etc. Ie where their ac is still really useful, and their DPS is enough to kill mobs quickly.

During the levels 1>13 everyone should be untouchable when it comes to AC, barb or no barb. At least if we're talking about good players.
In GH pretty much everyone will be hit, unless you've got really good past life things, such as chatter ring, or if you run as an sword and boarder.

The DPS difference is quite large at level 20, but the monk can still hold his own - more or less.

Basically, as everyone has said before - Don't judge your efficiency by the kill count. It's a good tool in some situations, but in PUGs? Not by a long shot.

Consumer
05-02-2011, 12:13 PM
I think up to at least a certain point, the monk will still outperform. Faster than the fighter, more survivable than the barb. Less time needed to hang back and chug a pot or whatever.

If a monks out performing the Barb/Fighter at low levels it is the player that is at fault. Barbs and Fighters have every advantage monks do not:

Higher to hit
Longer reach (THF)
Greater crit range (Carnifex or Khopesh)
Greater crit multiplier (Carnifex or Khopesh)

Monks have a slight speed advantage over Fighters, Barbs have sprint boost plus their base 10%. The Barb will have far more HP especially with the Barb past life. The Barb has DR boost negating the Monks defensive advantage.

Quite simply the Barbarian is king of the low levels.

Once GS is equipped Rogues (will still have more kills before then) are without a doubt the best killers, even without radiance (for example I'm using lit IIs). No one comes close, not even other TRs, you can run through quests and not use any boosts and still have more kills than other TRs. If you want you can run just half the quest with the party, while playing like a Barbarian, pike the rest and still have the highest kill count.

vrobel
05-02-2011, 12:16 PM
Things needed for high kill count from my spectation
1.High movment and attack speed.
2.mid high dps
3.Survivability without a healer.

TheDearLeader
05-02-2011, 12:17 PM
Meh, I don't have a monk anyway, so I'm just armchair talking here.

As said, kill counts don't often matter (although admittedly, when everyone else is at ~10 kills, and I'm at 80, I do tend to wonder.), and the TR/not TR difference is large.

I still maintain it could be because OP is a TMNT.

DragonMageT
05-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Not my title, but yeah...

Survivable means more time in combat, less time healing. If a monk gets in the last swing while the barb is chugging a pot, the monk "gets" that kill.

A TR Monk *may* still be rocking the AC necessary to perform admirably @ 12/13. I mean, that's barely into Gianthold territory.

My bad on the title thing.

No, cleric/fvs heals the Barb/Fighter or Monk while they both continue to swing away. Barb/Fighter wins.
Or run in, kills everything, then stop drink pots or run jump drink pots, continue on your merry way.

I didn't say they wouldn't perform well, they will. Just don't think equally geared TR toons (Barb/Fighter vs Monk) will necessarily result in the Monk out killing all others.

I use Level 12 as the break point because of GS items or other raid gear not quests.
Hard to beat those Dual Lit2 Khopeshes or Lit2 GA or Min2 GA.

TheDearLeader
05-02-2011, 12:22 PM
I use Level 12 as the break point because of GS items or other raid gear not quests.
Hard to beat those Dual Lit2 Khopeshes or Lit2 GA or Min2 GA.

But a TR Monk would get Lit II Handwraps... owait. :)

Darkrok
05-02-2011, 12:26 PM
But a TR Monk would get Lit II Handwraps... owait. :)

I actually like the vampiric stonedust handwraps though. Good enough leveling stun dc bonus on a toon being built to stun in epics, free incoming healing, also inducing helplessness at random with earthgrab in addition to the stun. They may not do the damage of a Lit II but they're very effective at increasing the ability to attack without stopping.

SetofBs
05-02-2011, 12:26 PM
Not my title, but yeah...

Survivable means more time in combat, less time healing. If a monk gets in the last swing while the barb is chugging a pot, the monk "gets" that kill.

A TR Monk *may* still be rocking the AC necessary to perform admirably @ 12/13. I mean, that's barely into Gianthold territory.

My first life monk is at mid 40's AC at level 13. That doesn't make her invincible but does mitigate a lot of damage in many quests on normal. She's solo'd some Gianthold quests without a healer, for example. Granted, she was built to have AC so she could do this sort of thing without using a lot of resources.

DragonMageT
05-02-2011, 12:27 PM
But a TR Monk would get Lit II Handwraps... owait. :)

Probably...U10 :)

kmau
05-02-2011, 12:31 PM
Monks usually have high kill counts at low-level because:

- They can't use THF till Level 10+ and thus usually use TWF
- Have more attacks/sec than the usual melees due to earlier TWF, hence more chances for killing blows
- Nobody is hasted 24/7
- They generally know what they are doing, I never encountered very unexperienced Monks.


Not that I care about kill counts, but I remember grouping with a monk at low levels on my barb and my mighty 100+ crits left mobs with like 10 Hp and the Monk waved his hands spastically and stowl all mah killz.

Consumer
05-02-2011, 12:34 PM
Monks usually have high kill counts at low-level because:

- They can't use THF till Level 10+ and thus usually use TWF

Incorrect, monks get Q staff at level 1.


- Have more attacks/sec than the usual melees due to earlier TWF, hence more chances for killing blows
- Nobody is hasted 24/7

Haste pots and haste boost


- They generally know what they are doing, I never encountered very unexperienced Monks.

PUG more

kernal42
05-02-2011, 12:35 PM
The increased attack speed and flurry of fists also pretty much guarantee that you will hit last if you are both swinging at the same person. I have been in a party with several competent melees, but at the rate monks attack getting the last hit is just going to happen. The barb may hit harder, but you hit more and faster. This is one reason kill counts mean so little.

This is false.
Two characters with equal dps will have equal kill counts regardless of attack speeds.

-Kernal

protokon
05-02-2011, 12:35 PM
kill-count is something people use to stroke their e-peens. nothing more.

all it means is you managed to get the last hit in more often than the other guys did.

Gnorbert
05-02-2011, 12:40 PM
I love when there's someone in a PUG with me that cares about kill count. It means I don't need to kill myself for the completion. Instead I can let "Captain KillemAll" do the heavy lifting.

RudyMcghee
05-02-2011, 12:51 PM
This is false.
Two characters with equal dps will have equal kill counts regardless of attack speeds.

-Kernal

Just saying that getting the last hit, equal dps or not, is easier when you hit for less but more often. Two people can be whacking away but when one is attacking considerably faster (unarmed) versus someone who is hitting harder but slower, the faster is more likely to get that final hit, and hence the "kill".

Gnorbert
05-02-2011, 01:09 PM
This is false.
Two characters with equal dps will have equal kill counts regardless of attack speeds.

-Kernal

This is only true if the two characters are fighting separate enemies. If they are both attacking the same target and one person attacks twice as fast... then the speedier character has a higher chance to land the killing blow.

However, the inverse to this is if the character who hits harder can routinely do enough damage in a single blow to kill any monster in the quest. In that case the heavier hitter will out kill the faster hitter.

SiDima
05-02-2011, 10:16 PM
The math in these forums scares me sometimes. Here is how it works: the heavier but slower hitting character is at a disadvantage against weak mobs since the effective dps is actually lower than max dps. Think of it as the heavy hitter overkilling way more often than the fast hitter. So the lower your damage per attack(approaching 0) and the higher your attack speed(approaching infinity) the closer your actual dps to the maximum you can achieve.
Now if the effective dps is the same for the two(or three, or four, etc..) then the speed of attack does not matter, kills will split 50/50 even if they attack the same mob. In other words if mobs take 5-10 hits from a barbarian to die then kill count is fairly representative of the dps.

Nysrock
05-02-2011, 10:21 PM
What I've noticed is my guys might hit harder with a THF weapon then the monk but there is always a slight pause in the attack chain, usually after the first couple of hits. It seems that is the time the the monks are still hitting and getting the kills. But if I let them attack first then I can hit during there slight pause and get the kill.

So it seems getting there the fastest with the mostest isn't always the best option if you are at all concerned about your count.

SensaiRyu
05-03-2011, 08:21 AM
Thanks for the responses.


Also, is your name Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo, or Raphael? Do you like Pizza, hang out with a Reporter with a bad haircut and a weird jumpsuit, and have a Rat for a mentor?

If so, you're a Ninja Turtle, and you're awesome, and well over explains the kill count difference between you and non-Ninja-Turtles.

I always liked Raphael best - Sai rock!

And yes, I often do PUGs. It's nice to be sufficient enuf to solo when the group fails. Most times all I need is a healer and melee to take the main force while I circle and clean up from behind. PUGs are like getting a group of henchmen with a little more brains. :D And then sometimes the PUGgers are actually pretty good!


But a TR Monk would get Lit II Handwraps... owait. :)
Ye... thanks for that reminder. :mad: Silver good short swords just aren't the same... maybe at Void IV or Mountain III they'll be a little better???

And I do go after the squishy little magics first (priest or wiz) to keep them off those that always fail their saves.


Think of it as the heavy hitter overkilling way more often than the fast hitter.

Ye... I'm getting it. I'm just amazed at how the hard hitting melees can almost kill the mobs and a monk has enuf dmg to finish them off.

If I have enuf speed and dmg to top off the kills of 3-4 fighters then I'm probably doing my job. Makes for a nice efficient team.

elujin
05-03-2011, 08:31 AM
my aa ranger leads kill counts in pugs

this is also an example of getting to the mobs first
if i many shot a big room full of mobs they will be dead before the rest gets to them
when i meele they gain but if there large cluster of mobs i can manyshot il lead :)

kill counts only mean somthing if you can't beat missadventure :)

Astraghal
05-03-2011, 08:37 AM
It's your attack speed.

Edit: Also, keep in mind that monks are ridiculously overpowered, as are most of the store bought classes/races.

CaptainPurge
05-03-2011, 09:33 AM
Last hit in = kill count +
The more attacks you can get in, the more often you will get credit for a kill.
Monks get the most attacks in and hence will generally have the most kills vs. other melee in any normalized group. Generally.

Carpone
05-03-2011, 09:51 AM
Is this a result of having a high attack speed? Whatever the reason, monks seem to make a great support character for DPSers, we can finish off monsters others take a chunk out of - reduces mob size fast.
Properly build monks are top notch DPS. They are only relegated to "support" roles like bards when they're built sub-optimally.

Monks have 10% more unarmed attacks per minute (96) compared to weapon-using TWF builds (88). That's one of the reasons monks have a higher kill count compared to other melee.

If you're using wind stance, the alacrity is very noticeable while leveling, especially if you don't have an arcane, or the arcane is forgetful about casting Haste, or you're too lazy to use Haste potions/clickies.