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Seikojin
05-02-2011, 01:53 AM
For a while I have been taking a long look at the difficulty of things and have noticed that things are either super easy or impossible.

I remember a time when your build didn't really matter. That you could come into a quest semi-ill-equipped and be able to hold your own and with a group, be able to pull the quest off.

It seems now, you can do that all alone. And the harder quests? You have to be best of breed and best of gear in order to be sucessful.

I think the epic reboot needs to address the following:
1. The mobs need to be able to miss you if your AC is below 70. I know, all those AC mongers out there say they have ac 70 at level 4. Make epic that easy? No. I am saying have a chance to miss those people. most players do not have their fighters, barbs, or rogues with 130+ AC at all times. That should not be the requirement to be missed 95% of the time.
2. Epic mobs should be strikeable with someone who is not 40+ str, triple kensai with past lives.
3. Spells cast by a plain level 20 caster should hit and affect mobs in a cr25 quest. Not 95% of the time, but better than 5% of the time.


How can we fix these dramatically preposterous issues?
1. An AC of 45 is pretty bad for an epic quest. You should be hit 95% of the time. I think the always hit threshold for AC should be 50-57... Obviously, each point from there should make a 5% reduction to be hit. As game breaking as this seems (because you can get your AC over 100), after you get to 70 AC, enemies have a 5% chance to hit you.
2. The same is true for to hit. An epic enemy AC should be high enough to where someone who has +30 to hit can strike them fairly often. Some data mining would be needed to determine the maximum to hit bonus on the first strike. At that point, you should have a 95% chance to hit on a CR20 quest. On a 25, it should be proportionately lower. So I would say 85% (2% per CR in quest) would be a fair tradeoff. I think from the low end, some one could come out higher than 5% to hit in a cr25 quest, but miss enough to give them tactile hints that they need improvement (gear).
3. In the same vein, casters without a 45dc should be able to land their spells. If you have all the spell penetration gear and feats and enhancements, your spells should land. Vice versa applies. Enemies should be able to land spells on us as well.


I think if there is a little tweaking done to the epic levels, lower level quests could be tweaked as well to have a feeling of accomplishment when you go in at level. 95% of the time I see people running quests quite a few levels lower than their character.

Forzah
05-02-2011, 02:14 AM
AC issue:
I agree that it should be fixed but being hit 5% at an AC of 70 already doesn't make much sense when there are builds reaching 100 AC. I think something like 85 would be a lot better... than people with 70 AC still have some chance of not being hit, and the true AC builds only get hit 5% of the time.

To-hit issue:
Haven't played epic on another melee than a barb so find it hard to comment on this. Is it really problematic?

Spell casting DC's:
Haven't noticed much of a problem here. I find it no problem that you actually have to gather some gear before you enter epic quests.

Hit-points:
This is simply false. You need about 400 hitpoints and preferably 500. If you don't back off when there is danger, you might need some more hp. For most toons, the threshold is not hard to reach.

sigtrent
05-02-2011, 02:20 AM
You greatly exaggerate the numbers you are using as examples.

Most quests on normal are not especially difficult for a decent team of rather average characters... provided you play well.

If you want it to be easy, just set the quest to casual and go to town.

efreet5
05-02-2011, 02:21 AM
I say no. Gear up your toons, THEN worry about epic quests. There are too many people that pike their way from korthos to lvl20 and feel like that entitles them to the same amount of success in high level dungeons as someone who has put in the time to make sure that they are prepared.

-------------------------------------------
As for the ac comment, it's far too easy at this point in time to get AC over 60. I do agree that some amount of pay off should result from focusing in AC, but if you've only got 50-57 ac at level 20 and you're focusing on ac, then you shouldn't expect any success in epics. Alternatively, if we're talking about someone who is wearing all the necessary gear to maintain a beholder proof 75+ AC, then I do believe they should recieve some kind of benefit for having put so much focus into AC. Currently, a 0ac barbarian is far more effective in epics than a 85ac "tank." Unfortunately, I don't really see a great way for them to balance this and this is coming from someone with a ranger that has over 70 beholder proof ac.
---------------------------------------------
Regarding to-hit: NO!

When the cap was 14 I used to plan for my toons to get 30 or more to-hit with power attack on. Why should it matter that a level 20 toon accomplishes this when we are SO much more powerful than we were at cap 14. I used to plan for +1 elemental greater bane weapons, now I plan for epic sos and greensteel. On top of that our enhancements have gotten stronger in addition to the gear, so, once again, if you're sittin at a miserably low to-hit of 30 at cap, then you didn't put the time in to bother worrying about epics.
-------------------------------------------------

Too many people are crying about the ineffectiveness of their toons in epics when they have put little or no time into actually gearing them out. Epics are supposed to be a type of end-game. These are supposed to be quests that are beyond elite difficulty. I keep seeing people break out the "but what about the casual players" card. What about 'em? They can smell flowers and experience the slow dungeon crawls in the other content. They've dumbed down the game enough already, so gear up your toons or G T F O of epic quests. I don't know how to put it any nicer and I'm not in the mood to be more politically correct.

I am a power gamer and this is how I feel.

-Dread

elujin
05-02-2011, 02:36 AM
agreed with the poster above .

my toons are just getting the gears for epics its a work in progress and there epic quest that are easy like most of the carnival

dingal
05-02-2011, 02:42 AM
For a while I have been taking a long look at the difficulty of things and have noticed that things are either super easy or impossible.

I remember a time when your build didn't really matter. That you could come into a quest semi-ill-equipped and be able to hold your own and with a group, be able to pull the quest off.

It seems now, you can do that all alone. And the harder quests? You have to be best of breed and best of gear in order to be sucessful.

I think the epic reboot needs to address the following:
1. The mobs need to be able to miss you if your AC is below 70. I know, all those AC mongers out there say they have ac 70 at level 4. Make epic that easy? No. I am saying have a chance to miss those people. most players do not have their fighters, barbs, or rogues with 130+ AC at all times. That should not be the requirement to be missed 95% of the time.
2. Epic mobs should be strikeable with someone who is not 40+ str, triple kensai with past lives.
3. Spells cast by a plain level 20 caster should hit and affect mobs in a cr25 quest. Not 95% of the time, but better than 5% of the time.
4. You should not need 1000+ hit points to live.

How can we fix these dramatically preposterous issues?
1. An AC of 45 is pretty bad for an epic quest. You should be hit 95% of the time. I think the always hit threshold for AC should be 50-57... Obviously, each point from there should make a 5% reduction to be hit. As game breaking as this seems (because you can get your AC over 100), after you get to 70 AC, enemies have a 5% chance to hit you.
2. The same is true for to hit. An epic enemy AC should be high enough to where someone who has +30 to hit can strike them fairly often. Some data mining would be needed to determine the maximum to hit bonus on the first strike. At that point, you should have a 95% chance to hit on a CR20 quest. On a 25, it should be proportionately lower. So I would say 85% (2% per CR in quest) would be a fair tradeoff. I think from the low end, some one could come out higher than 5% to hit in a cr25 quest, but miss enough to give them tactile hints that they need improvement (gear).
3. In the same vein, casters without a 45dc should be able to land their spells. If you have all the spell penetration gear and feats and enhancements, your spells should land. Vice versa applies. Enemies should be able to land spells on us as well.


I think if there is a little tweaking done to the epic levels, lower level quests could be tweaked as well to have a feeling of accomplishment when you go in at level. 95% of the time I see people running quests quite a few levels lower than their character.

I'm not sure you're even playing the same game that I am.

Epic is pathetically broken it's so easy now. Everything is easy with a few minor exceptions and even those few are easy in a decent group.

Atree
05-02-2011, 03:38 AM
I don't have any toon with meaningful AC so can't comment about that.

However I can safely state that hitting epic mobs is really rather trivial. My cleric, with a mere 30 Str, hits much more than she misses. If the mobs happen to be CC'd or if there happens to be a bard in the party then she only misses on a 1.

Also none of my toons have more than 500hp, yet they don't die all that often in epics. If the CC is up to par then the only healing required is a cleric's aura, or an occasional heal. Even when the designated CCer doesn't have what it takes, decently geared toons can compensate by managing agro in other ways. In fact my melee-specced warchanter solo-healed an epic when the party's cleric rage-quit.

Disclaimer: the only "epic" gear I posses comes from the Crystal Cove event. I do have some raid gear, but considering that most raids can be piked these days, I'd expect any toon going into epics to have some.

mystafyi
05-02-2011, 04:53 AM
content is so silly easy now. i think the only way to make epics harder is to let level 15's into epics.

Seikojin
05-02-2011, 11:15 AM
Regarding the HP: I meant to take that out. I know how hard it is to crest 100 in hp, and honestly, it is not neccisary like was mentioned.


AC issue:
I agree that it should be fixed but being hit 5% at an AC of 70 already doesn't make much sense when there are builds reaching 100 AC. I think something like 85 would be a lot better... than people with 70 AC still have some chance of not being hit, and the true AC builds only get hit 5% of the time.

If we build backwards from the top end being hit at 5%, and say the top end is 130, then someone with a 110 AC is being hit 95% of the time. I think that is where the game is currently. If someone is at 100 AC and getting hit 5%, then at 80 they are being hit 95% of the time. 70-90 @ 95% - 5% would give the most accurate range for meaningful AC I think. Or 75-95.



To-hit issue:
Haven't played epic on another melee than a barb so find it hard to comment on this. Is it really problematic?
My main is a kensai, so for me, I hit pretty often. I do not have all my gear, so I have room for improvement. Mayhaps it is fine ac wise. I haven't tried nerfing myself to see how well I would do. But I think someone who spends time getting their to hit up, should expect to land hits on Epic content, regardless of class. As someone else points out, their cleric with 30str hits all the time. So I might be barking up the wrong tree.



Spell casting DC's:
Haven't noticed much of a problem here. I find it no problem that you actually have to gather some gear before you enter epic quests.
I don't see a problem with gathering gear to have a high success chance in epics. But I would like if it was less than pass or fail. Say on a triple life, max stat, max gear character, their DC's for spells are 50. I think their spells should land 75% of the time on epic. A 45 DC would have a 50% chance, a 40 wih 25%, and 35 would fail all the time.



Hit-points:
This is simply false. You need about 400 hitpoints and preferably 500. If you don't back off when there is danger, you might need some more hp. For most toons, the threshold is not hard to reach.
Yeah sorry about that. I put that in there and before hitting post, I thought I removed it. As much as it pains me to think min 14 con is required, it is, and that is just a fact of life in ddo.


You greatly exaggerate the numbers you are using as examples.

Most quests on normal are not especially difficult for a decent team of rather average characters... provided you play well.

If you want it to be easy, just set the quest to casual and go to town.

I am not asking for an easy button. I think work should be rewarded. I see casters failing a lot in epic quests. And they have pretty high DC's. I also see a ton of tankish people getting hit more often than they should. I know as players, we can max out things and be pretty solid, but we are talking about not only using the best gear possible, we are also multiclassing, spreading our AP thin, and then requiring a bag of holding filled with enough arcane tricks to make a Mordenkainen's mansion look like a crowded apartment. If they want to go that far, then they should be rewarded, but the problem here is the distance between that high mark and anythign else is soo far apart, that it breaks the basic mechanics of the system.


I say no. Gear up your toons, THEN worry about epic quests. There are too many people that pike their way from korthos to lvl20 and feel like that entitles them to the same amount of success in high level dungeons as someone who has put in the time to make sure that they are prepared.

...Snip <felt addressed in my first set of quotes>...

Too many people are crying about the ineffectiveness of their toons in epics when they have put little or no time into actually gearing them out. Epics are supposed to be a type of end-game. These are supposed to be quests that are beyond elite difficulty. I keep seeing people break out the "but what about the casual players" card. What about 'em? They can smell flowers and experience the slow dungeon crawls in the other content. They've dumbed down the game enough already, so gear up your toons or G T F O of epic quests. I don't know how to put it any nicer and I'm not in the mood to be more politically correct.

I am a power gamer and this is how I feel.

-Dread
I personally am not trying to make an argument for casual players or player who aren't putting the work in for their epic gear. I am specifically trying to address the problems at that high end. Even at the high end, someone who doesn't max their stats should be able to participate in the high end content. Openly admiting to being a power gamer, you may not understand how someone could ever want less than max for a stat relevant to their class. However, it is a game about options and personal taste and playstyle and as such everyone should be able to enjoy the content they pay for. Otherwise, why allow someone to pick a stat below max? Why not take stats out all together from the players control and autofill when they select their race and class?


I'm not sure you're even playing the same game that I am.

Epic is pathetically broken it's so easy now. Everything is easy with a few minor exceptions and even those few are easy in a decent group.
I will agree that the games difficulty can be trivialized fairly easilly. But trivialized is not reward for effort, it is bypassing the challenge.


I don't have any toon with meaningful AC so can't comment about that.

However I can safely state that hitting epic mobs is really rather trivial. My cleric, with a mere 30 Str, hits much more than she misses. If the mobs happen to be CC'd or if there happens to be a bard in the party then she only misses on a 1.

...snip <my hp comment wasn't meant to make it> ...

Disclaimer: the only "epic" gear I posses comes from the Crystal Cove event. I do have some raid gear, but considering that most raids can be piked these days, I'd expect any toon going into epics to have some.
Ok, so the enemy AC doesn't really seem to be an issue. It is their to hits that are huge. LOL

Junts
05-02-2011, 11:22 AM
Epic mobs have extremely high to-hit because, in the previous instances where high ac has been readily available on DDO, or even only available to well-designed characters, it has been dominantly broken. Most recently, at the lv 16 cap anyone with a monk splash could acquire enough ac to be missed regularly without any drawback in their combat effectiveness, and many builds could become nigh unhittable while retaining all their combat effectiveness.

Even grazing hits in Amrath didn't really mitigate this in specific quests. While ac -tanking- is not overpowered, its always proven nearly impossible for the developers to balance content when one player can legitimately attain 5% of the incoming damage of another player. The solution is that epic trash mobs hit everyone unless they basically gimp themselves into uselessness.

Even now its possible to attain a 75-85 ac on a character that can still deal damage at a very high level. If anything like you propose were true, those characters would take next to zero damage while clearing quests.

Cam_Neely
05-02-2011, 11:32 AM
I think the epic reboot needs to address the following:
1. The mobs need to be able to miss you if your AC is below 70. I know, all those AC mongers out there say they have ac 70 at level 4. Make epic that easy? No. I am saying have a chance to miss those people. most players do not have their fighters, barbs, or rogues with 130+ AC at all times. That should not be the requirement to be missed 95% of the time.
2. Epic mobs should be strikeable with someone who is not 40+ str, triple kensai with past lives.
3. Spells cast by a plain level 20 caster should hit and affect mobs in a cr25 quest. Not 95% of the time, but better than 5% of the time.


While there is a problem with epics, by making up issues I stopped reading. By bard is a first life with less then 40 str, and I hit fine in Epics. 130 AC is not required anywhere in this game. Any decent 20 caster can hit in epics more then 5% of the time. Stick to facts and not fallacy and you have a better chance of convincing people.

Henrieta
05-02-2011, 11:42 AM
Too many people are crying about the ineffectiveness of their toons in epics when they have put little or no time into actually gearing them out. Epics are supposed to be a type of end-game. These are supposed to be quests that are beyond elite difficulty. I keep seeing people break out the "but what about the casual players" card. What about 'em? They can smell flowers and experience the slow dungeon crawls in the other content. They've dumbed down the game enough already, so gear up your toons or G T F O of epic quests. I don't know how to put it any nicer and I'm not in the mood to be more politically correct.

-Dread

Yes. +1

voodoogroves
05-02-2011, 11:43 AM
Epic mobs have extremely high to-hit because, in the previous instances where high ac has been readily available on DDO, or even only available to well-designed characters, it has been dominantly broken. Most recently, at the lv 16 cap anyone with a monk splash could acquire enough ac to be missed regularly without any drawback in their combat effectiveness, and many builds could become nigh unhittable while retaining all their combat effectiveness.

Even grazing hits in Amrath didn't really mitigate this in specific quests. While ac -tanking- is not overpowered, its always proven nearly impossible for the developers to balance content when one player can legitimately attain 5% of the incoming damage of another player. The solution is that epic trash mobs hit everyone unless they basically gimp themselves into uselessness.

Even now its possible to attain a 75-85 ac on a character that can still deal damage at a very high level. If anything like you propose were true, those characters would take next to zero damage while clearing quests.

I'd love to see glancing blows damage scale w/ the nature of the hit, or similar.



I'm not sure you're even playing the same game that I am.

Epic is pathetically broken it's so easy now. Everything is easy with a few minor exceptions and even those few are easy in a decent group.

The truth is in the middle somehwere. Epics with toons with mostly solid epic gear? Pretty darn easy. Epics with toons having only non-epic gear? Not quite as easy ...

... but still not horrible for the most part.

kmau
05-02-2011, 11:46 AM
Two words:
AC cap

With a cap to armorclass and minor tweaking to Mob to-hit people wouldn't have to focus on AC so badly it disrupts their dps/other aspects of the class.

danotmano1998
05-02-2011, 11:47 AM
I don't agree that things need to be re-balanced. As a newer player with not-so-epic gear, I can solo most of the quests on normal. Mind you, not ALL of them. I don't always succeed, and there are times when I'll try, die, come up with some tactics, try, die, and repeat a few times before I succeed.

Elite content is supposed to be Elite, and Epic should be Epic.
I don't expect to go into a quest with my average ho-hum gear solo and a not-so-perfect build and wipe the floor with everything. Nor do I want to.

Yes, the difference between Elite and Hard is considerable. But then, IMO, it should be!

If you don't have something to struggle for and benchmark yourself against, then the game gets too easy, boring, and gets uninstalled.

So I like things the way they are now. Don't make epics/elite easier! Please don't!!
I want to have to work to get those done, or there is no satisfaction in running them.

I want to have to group with several others on the harder stuff. Teamwork is far more fun than soloing. That is the essence of an MMO, isn't it?

Waylayer
05-02-2011, 11:55 AM
I too have given this some thought; and came to the conclusion that just capping Armor or "to hit" would feel like a Nerf to people that exceed the cap.

Since players hate being nerfed, my suggestion would be this. (Numbers are just examples).

Player Armor bonus caps @ 70. Armor beyond 70 grants DR 1/- stacking - for each additional 5 armor.
Mob "To Hit" Caps @ 50

Player "To Hit" caps @ 50, "To Hit" beyond 50 Grants +1 Damage for each additional +5 to hit
Mob Armor Caps @ 52

Spell DC's - No Idea ...

Impaqt
05-02-2011, 12:05 PM
For a while I have been taking a long look at the difficulty of things and have noticed that things are either super easy or impossible.

I remember a time when your build didn't really matter. That you could come into a quest semi-ill-equipped and be able to hold your own and with a group, be able to pull the quest off.

It seems now, you can do that all alone. And the harder quests? You have to be best of breed and best of gear in order to be sucessful.

I think the epic reboot needs to address the following:
1. The mobs need to be able to miss you if your AC is below 70. I know, all those AC mongers out there say they have ac 70 at level 4. Make epic that easy? No. I am saying have a chance to miss those people. most players do not have their fighters, barbs, or rogues with 130+ AC at all times. That should not be the requirement to be missed 95% of the time.
2. Epic mobs should be strikeable with someone who is not 40+ str, triple kensai with past lives.
3. Spells cast by a plain level 20 caster should hit and affect mobs in a cr25 quest. Not 95% of the time, but better than 5% of the time.


How can we fix these dramatically preposterous issues?
1. An AC of 45 is pretty bad for an epic quest. You should be hit 95% of the time. I think the always hit threshold for AC should be 50-57... Obviously, each point from there should make a 5% reduction to be hit. As game breaking as this seems (because you can get your AC over 100), after you get to 70 AC, enemies have a 5% chance to hit you.
2. The same is true for to hit. An epic enemy AC should be high enough to where someone who has +30 to hit can strike them fairly often. Some data mining would be needed to determine the maximum to hit bonus on the first strike. At that point, you should have a 95% chance to hit on a CR20 quest. On a 25, it should be proportionately lower. So I would say 85% (2% per CR in quest) would be a fair tradeoff. I think from the low end, some one could come out higher than 5% to hit in a cr25 quest, but miss enough to give them tactile hints that they need improvement (gear).
3. In the same vein, casters without a 45dc should be able to land their spells. If you have all the spell penetration gear and feats and enhancements, your spells should land. Vice versa applies. Enemies should be able to land spells on us as well.


I think if there is a little tweaking done to the epic levels, lower level quests could be tweaked as well to have a feeling of accomplishment when you go in at level. 95% of the time I see people running quests quite a few levels lower than their character.

You seem to be missing the point of "Epic"
1: Blur and displace still works against a lot of Epic mobs. Thats better than most "Uber AC".. Use it. I'm not sure why you think We should have a "someone who has +30 to hit can strike them fairly often" but the Epic mobs who have a 30+ to hit should be the opposite... See the flaw there?

2:AS far as to hit goes, this is where tactics really come into play. Destruction.. Improved Destruction.. Dex damage.. Sunder.... Ooze guard/weapons.... We have ways to mitigate their AC... But it so seldom gets done.

3: The devs have given us a lot of debuff options with update 9. Learn to take advantage of those debuffs. it does kinda suck that a 45 DC is borderline usefull, but Caster DPS is pretty useful now as well.. Most of those dont need a high DC either.

grodon9999
05-02-2011, 12:08 PM
Epic mobs have extremely high to-hit because, in the previous instances where high ac has been readily available on DDO, or even only available to well-designed characters, it has been dominantly broken. Most recently, at the lv 16 cap anyone with a monk splash could acquire enough ac to be missed regularly without any drawback in their combat effectiveness, and many builds could become nigh unhittable while retaining all their combat effectiveness.

Even grazing hits in Amrath didn't really mitigate this in specific quests. While ac -tanking- is not overpowered, its always proven nearly impossible for the developers to balance content when one player can legitimately attain 5% of the incoming damage of another player. The solution is that epic trash mobs hit everyone unless they basically gimp themselves into uselessness.

Even now its possible to attain a 75-85 ac on a character that can still deal damage at a very high level. If anything like you propose were true, those characters would take next to zero damage while clearing quests.

When epics first came out there wasn't nearly as much DPS gear as their is now. You take a DPS hit with every level you take, feat you select, piece of gear you slot, etc . . . that gives you AC takes away from your DPS.

The nuts and bolts of what the OP proposed is wrong, but we're at the point where AC can be made viable because of all the DPS you now lose building for AC. A toon that can get 85 AC and deal damage at a high-level can't do it at the same time.

eulogy098
05-02-2011, 12:22 PM
what you are noticing is an innate fault of a d20 system. Once the combatants are within the 20 range it becomes rather easy to bump up your stat enough to suddenly become a 0 target. At the same time if something is far outside your 20 range, doing your best to add a few more to your stat is as good as adding nothing.

There is no simple solution to the issue. If you allow players to reach a point having AC high enough to be missed 35% of the time, it doesnt take much to get to the point of being untouchable.

I suspect the only solution may be to give the Epic monsters are lower Attack bonus (equal to some higher-end non elites) and give them some kind of special buff that will "force" them to roll successful hit 25, 50 or even 75% of the time. Having ac higher beyond that would simply work as some kind of DR.

AC is extremely hard to balance in a d20 system when you have players and monsters with such inflated stats

grodon9999
05-02-2011, 12:27 PM
I suspect the only solution may be to give the Epic monsters are lower Attack bonus (equal to some higher-end non elites) and give them some kind of special buff that will "force" them to roll successful hit 25, 50 or even 75% of the time. Having ac higher beyond that would simply work as some kind of DR.



Read this . . . http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=298546&highlight=simple - long of the short explands the 1-20 to a 2-40 variable.

A combination of this and utilization of the grazing hits system (it needs to be tweaked) and you can expand the range of useful AC with nobody being invulnerable to anything.

thunir
05-02-2011, 12:29 PM
I say no. Gear up your toons, THEN worry about epic quests. There are too many people that pike their way from korthos to lvl20 and feel like that entitles them to the same amount of success in high level dungeons as someone who has put in the time to make sure that they are prepared.

-Dread

Agreed

Seikojin
05-02-2011, 01:44 PM
what you are noticing is an innate fault of a d20 system. Once the combatants are within the 20 range it becomes rather easy to bump up your stat enough to suddenly become a 0 target. At the same time if something is far outside your 20 range, doing your best to add a few more to your stat is as good as adding nothing.

There is no simple solution to the issue. If you allow players to reach a point having AC high enough to be missed 35% of the time, it doesnt take much to get to the point of being untouchable.

I suspect the only solution may be to give the Epic monsters are lower Attack bonus (equal to some higher-end non elites) and give them some kind of special buff that will "force" them to roll successful hit 25, 50 or even 75% of the time. Having ac higher beyond that would simply work as some kind of DR.

AC is extremely hard to balance in a d20 system when you have players and monsters with such inflated stats

I think that suggestion to offer a building buff for mobs to hit someones AC is a good idea. Just dunno how bad it would lag up the experience.

Indeed a sticky situation either way. It sure looks like some people who are in the top tier think epics are easy.

If epics had level choices this whole situation would be different. There would be a point where even 130+ AC would not be a 95% miss. Unfortunately, that isn't the case right now.

Regarding Cam: I didn't say it was 5%, but it can get to 95%. I think at the current level in the game, a cr25 quest against a max'd out caster; should be 75% to 85% effective. But from what I have experienced, a max'd out caster right now is 90-95% effective (this is for non dps types of spells).

vcntmnd
05-02-2011, 02:51 PM
I skipped to the end of this thread after reading about half of it, so forgive me if somebody already posted this, but the answer to this issue is more randomness on the attack roll number. Bottom line there is no set of 20 ACs that appropriately encompasses the variation in armor classes, the 1-20 roll is from older versions of D&D where the effective MAXIMUM armor class was only twenty (-10 AC) thus making the 1-20 roll appropriate and for the most part balanced.

I suggest a 2-40 attack roll coupled with a minus 12 base attack bonus, making both higher and lower armor classes (and attack bonuses) important.

Noctus
05-02-2011, 06:24 PM
what you are noticing is an innate fault of a d20 system. Once the combatants are within the 20 range it becomes rather easy to bump up your stat enough to suddenly become a 0 target. At the same time if something is far outside your 20 range, doing your best to add a few more to your stat is as good as adding nothing.


The very, very old solution to that D20-problem was the decreasing attack boni for iterative attacks.

For example the swings a monster/charcter takes are with
* +40
* +35
* +25
* +20
in a full-attack sequence. ---> So the viable AC range against this attacker just was raised by a whooping 20 points. Even if you would be hit on the 1st swing on a 2+, the 3rd and 4th swing had a reasonable miss chance against you if your AC was 5 points below (here: AC 35) the primary attack´s attack bonus.

In DDO you can scrap AC completly if you dont have a almost immunity AC against a primary swing, due to the increased iterative attack boni.:( DDO sequence looks this:
* 40
* 40
* 45
* 50
* 55
Even with 5 points higher AC than the primary swing you´ll get trashed hard.

This is the reason why almost all higher-level characters drop AC completly, while in Pen&Paper AC even on lowish AC charcters (Rogues, arcanes, ...) still makes a difference when they get attacked in melee. In Pen&Paper D&D every character cares about AC and it makes a difference, because of how the attack boni on iterative attacks are handeled.

DDO completly inversed that :eek::(:eek: in the name of combating twitch-fighting. And at level 10 when it was done it didnt make a big difference, but opene d a can of worms that now, when the differences between the two systems spiralled out of control, broke the whole AC system for 99% of all characters! :(

Impaqt
05-02-2011, 06:28 PM
The very, very old solution to that D20-problem was the decreasing attack boni for iterative attacks.

For example the swings a monster/charcter takes are with
* +40
* +35
* +25
* +20
in a full-attack sequence. ---> So the viable AC range against this attacker just was raised by a whooping 20 points. Even if you would be hit on the 1st swing on a 2+, the 3rd and 4th swing had a reasonable miss chance against you if your AC was 5 points below (here: AC 35) the primary attack´s attack bonus.

In DDO you can scrap AC completly if you dont have a almost immunity AC against a primary swing, due to the increased iterative attack boni.:( DDO sequence looks this:
* 40
* 40
* 45
* 50
* 55
Even with 5 points higher AC than the primary swing you´ll get trashed hard.

This is the reason why almost all higher-level characters drop AC completly, while in Pen&Paper AC even on lowish AC charcters (Rogues, arcanes, ...) still makes a difference when they get attacked in melee. In Pen&Paper D&D every character cares about AC and it makes a difference, because of how the attack boni on iterative attacks are handeled.

DDO completly inversed that :eek::(:eek: in the name of combating twitch-fighting. And at level 10 when it was done it didnt make a big difference, but opene d a can of worms that now, when the differences between the two systems spiralled out of control, broke the whole AC system for 99% of all characters! :(


Mobs dont get the progressive attack bonus as far as Ive ever heard.

waterboytkd
05-02-2011, 11:23 PM
I never even thought of an AC cap as a solution. I actually like that. The Devs could then just assign attack values to mobs based on how often they want to hit that AC. And if the AC cap is something that many melee can reach, it becomes all the more reliable.

...

I really like this idea. If it was low enough that you didn't have to be a full-AC ****** to get it (off the top of my head, around a 60?) you would also have options for how you geared your toon to AC, which would/could make more pieces of gear worth taking. And being a Dex-based melee with Weapon Finesse serves a purpose, because it's really easy to hit a 60 with such a toon, thus opening up gearing for those toons even more, which could allow them to bridge the dps gap more.

...

I really like this idea. It tastes better the more I chew on it.

Der_Incubo
05-02-2011, 11:36 PM
I'm not sure you're even playing the same game that I am.

Epic is pathetically broken it's so easy now. Everything is easy with a few minor exceptions and even those few are easy in a decent group.

I have to agree with this, my characters are horribly underequipped by epic standards. Under the old system they were simple with a competent team. The new system i could probably solo some of the easier missions (those that already have the superloot are prolly soloing von3 right now).

I know im going to get screwed on scroll/loot drops, at least make the mission as frustrating as never getting the loots!

xxScoobyDooxx
05-02-2011, 11:56 PM
then I am sorry to tell you that your build and gear is full of fail for epic.

Instead of making an ill informed thread on how to make the game easier for you I suggest you make a new thread - I am struggling in epic, please help me with my build and gear.

Then you can get some needed help and if you listen to good advice then eventually you may be able to enjoy end game like many others do.

Just to let you know ... U9 Epic is now so easy it's boring. It makes me wonder what the point is to grind out even more gear for my toons.

Hope you can take this constructively.

Seikojin
05-03-2011, 12:11 AM
then I am sorry to tell you that your build and gear is full of fail for epic.

Instead of making an ill informed thread on how to make the game easier for you I suggest you make a new thread - I am struggling in epic, please help me with my build and gear.

Then you can get some needed help and if you listen to good advice then eventually you may be able to enjoy end game like many others do.

Just to let you know ... U9 Epic is now so easy it's boring. It makes me wonder what the point is to grind out even more gear for my toons.

Hope you can take this constructively.

Oh I know where my character stands (or falls considering his setup and gear). I don't even think of him when I am making my points here.

I just think people who put the effort into getting to the high end should be aptly rewarded: with challenge. I don't want 100+ AC in a cr30, 35, or 40 quest being just as powerful as it is in current epic cr25 quests.

vcntmnd
05-03-2011, 12:42 AM
The very, very old solution to that D20-problem was the decreasing attack boni for iterative attacks.
Iterative attacks work better on paper than they do in a real time game. The extra 1-20 roll would have the same effect while removing the predictability, and thus the potential for exploitation.

Tom318
05-03-2011, 12:53 AM
I am not asking for an easy button. I think work should be rewarded. I see casters failing a lot in epic quests. And they have pretty high DC's. I also see a ton of tankish people getting hit more often than they should. I know as players, we can max out things and be pretty solid, but we are talking about not only using the best gear possible, we are also multiclassing, spreading our AP thin, and then requiring a bag of holding filled with enough arcane tricks to make a Mordenkainen's mansion look like a crowded apartment. If they want to go that far, then they should be rewarded, but the problem here is the distance between that high mark and anythign else is soo far apart, that it breaks the basic mechanics of the system.

Huh? either you are casual (which means you don't do epics) or you are not (which means you do epics.) How does catering for one or the other break the basic mechanics of the system? and just what are the basic mechanics of the system anyway?