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Mr.Delightful
04-29-2011, 12:55 PM
I don't like puzzles, but I realize some do. What I really hate are puzzles that force me to go through them to complete the quest. I was just going through "Enter the Kobold" today, and I was reminded how much puzzles really ruin large parts of the game for me. After working on it for a while, (which was not fun) I looked up the solution, and found out that sense I had already worked on it a bit, the solution was useless me! So I had to completely restart the quest and not even attempt to solve it on my own to get past it.

Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.

It seems every update, there's always one quest with a frustrating puzzle that sucks the enjoyment right out of the quest. Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack) Consequently, fewer people run the quest because they don't know the puzzle, depending on some puzzle genius to put together a group and do it for them while they pike. Maybe someday their memorize the puzzle (doesn't that sound fun) and be able to run their own groups (maybe).

So what do people think, should puzzles stay mandatory for quest completion, or should they be optionals for extra for those so inclined?

Cam_Neely
04-29-2011, 12:59 PM
no, no and no

They are part of the quest. Part of the challenge. Either avoid the quests, or do the puzzles. Might as well ask for a check box to take traps out for when I solo with my Barb. Or take out spell resistance for my splashed caster.

somenewnoob
04-29-2011, 01:01 PM
I like the puzzles, I don't think there are enough of them to annoy me. The amount is just about right.

DrakmireTS
04-29-2011, 01:02 PM
Having puzzles be mandatory is one of the only things that makes dungeons interesting, and not just a mindless slog through trash until completion.

Thinking for yourself is a good thing.

Synthetic
04-29-2011, 01:05 PM
/not signed

Perhaps you should have put up an lfm then you could have had someone else do the puzzle and you could of done the parts you like.

Fejj
04-29-2011, 01:05 PM
I totally agree, and while we are at it, the mobs really get in the way while I try to rush to the end of the quest, they can kill me, or worse. Can we make them an option you turn on at the quest start?
Normal - with mobs
Normal - no mobs

Thanks


To the OP, just don't run the quests you don't like. There are quests out there for all players. Have you tried Waterworks? Lots of fun there, and no puzzles. (the last part of the chain can be tricky, but you can put up an LMF for help finding the body if needed.)

TrinityTurtle
04-29-2011, 01:06 PM
I also prefer things the way they are, but point out, you know you hate them, so why didn't you take the time to load up the solution before you started messing with the puzzle so that you can simply blow through it? Not being properly prepared does not equate a need to change the dungeons. You are in control of your own game experience at the end of the day, mandatory puzzles or not.

Chai
04-29-2011, 01:06 PM
There are sammich tank -n- spank games where all you do is kill and move forward on the market.

Lets not make DDO one of them.

Mr.Delightful
04-29-2011, 01:09 PM
Having puzzles be mandatory is one of the only things that makes dungeons interesting, and not just a mindless slog through trash until completion.

Thinking for yourself is a good thing.

You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

SynalonEtuul
04-29-2011, 01:11 PM
u devs why u put puzzles dat hurt mah brain

underpants
04-29-2011, 01:11 PM
Booo I say

there is always a solver out there

next you will want to be able to go through VOD while in a cheerleader outfit attacking sulu with Pom Poms

Gratch
04-29-2011, 01:12 PM
I like puzzles, despite TR'ing and running quests like Enter the Kobold 10x in a row for Xp grind. I'd be sad if there were no puzzles. There are quests such as the puzzle one in 3BC and more recent ones where THEY HAVE ADDED a puzzle bypass possibility - often for less XP but still completion.

Also... if you weren't able to get the puzzle in Kobold, was there noone else in the quest with you who could do it? Because solo, you'd have a very interesting fight coming up at the end if unfamiliar with the quest. Though it has been nerfed quite a bit... so maybe not insane. Maybe it's cake on casual... dunno.

muffinlad
04-29-2011, 01:14 PM
Interestingly, I agree with you for the most part.

A) I would not change quests as they exist today, there needs to be a mix for folks who enjoy a different way of playing than you or I might.

B) Future quests designed would have puzzles that give an advantage, or a reward.
Example: Quest takes 15 min, and gives you 4k xp
Do simple puzzle, get access to an item that lets the quest go faster.
Do a medium puzzle, get 2k more exp.
Do a complex puzzle, get 2k more exp and a special item.

I think that DDO has a mix of these right now, and I would like to see more of B, than A.

Now, I am able to do most of the puzzles in the game- my style is that I prefer them to be additions rather than mandatory.

My two copper anyway,

muffinriddles

jwdaniels
04-29-2011, 01:14 PM
You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

From my experience, interesting is far more common than frustrating. Like someone else said, group with someone to do the puzzles and handle the parts that you don't want to handle. There are so many different quests and features in DDO, you can easily pick and choose what to play and what not to play.

Personally, I find halfling monks frustrating because they tend to be twitchy little speedballs on crack, but I wouldn't want them removed because other people enjoy playing them.

SardaofChaos
04-29-2011, 01:15 PM
The only puzzle you have listed that I have not experienced is the Inferno of the Damned. From what I have heard of it, I can say with 90% certainty that it, Kobold, and the Crucible are the only valid examples you have given. Here's a list:

Prove Your Worth: 2 minutes experimentation to figure out what the levers do and what happens when a lighted area is hit, follow the dart lines to solve.
Siegebreaker: Run in the pattern of a 5-pointed star. That's all. I've heard tales that you can even just run in a circle, but have not confirmed. Slightly harder, yes, but once you know how(which only takes a single quest run with someone who does) you can't forget.
Rainbow in the Dark: it's a rainbow. Seriously, if you didn't do this your first time through...

Others you neglected to mention:
Tomb of the Tormented: also a valid complaint, but only because of the timing(and time necessary) involved and not so much because of the difficulty of the puzzle.
Ghost of a Chance: puzzle is entirely optional, which is good because it is the only one that is entirely impossible without a specific qualifier, in this case a semi-decent search skill.

Now, you may notice that of the puzzle mentioned, I claim half as valid. Does this mean they need to be optional? Not in all cases. For The Crucible, the puzzle is an entirely necessary part of the challenge. Have to be intelligent to be part of the Storm Brigade and all that. For Inferno, from what I hear the puzzle is all that the quest is, and removing it would remove the quest. For Kobold, it's possible. There's already a treasure chest for solving it, all that would need to be done is remove the barrier on the other side. People would still have to be minorly competent in order to pass through, but would not have to hunt down every single unlit switch. Finally, for Tomb of the Tormented, the puzzle is again all that the quest is.

To sum up: making the puzzles optional would only be both a good idea and possible in Enter the Kobold.

Mr.Delightful
04-29-2011, 01:16 PM
no, no and no

They are part of the quest. Part of the challenge. Either avoid the quests, or do the puzzles. Might as well ask for a check box to take traps out for when I solo with my Barb. Or take out spell resistance for my splashed caster.

You can already reduce trap difficult and damage greatly by using the difficulty settings; There is no such option for puzzles. Besides, as a barb you just run though the trap anyway :)

cwfergtx
04-29-2011, 01:16 PM
That would be like asking that all quests be soloable not require hirelings to help with switches or how about no Mario style jumping quest for those that are half blind with poor hand eye cordination. I void certain quests since I don't like them or I look for lfm's for them to get them out of the way.

NinjaNeed
04-29-2011, 01:17 PM
/NOT signed!!!

Puzzles are one of the few fun parts of quests. The puzzle in Enter the Kobold is a simple one. Just keep choosing a random direction and you will be sure to get through eventually. Its not hard.

My suggestion to you is to either go back to school and leave these games until you are a bit older and able to comprehend simple puzzles or go play WoW where all you need to do in quests is walk/kill/repeat.

Teharahma
04-29-2011, 01:18 PM
I don't like puzzles, but I realize some do. What I really hate are puzzles that force me to go through them to complete the quest. I was just going through "Enter the Kobold" today, and I was reminded how much puzzles really ruin large parts of the game for me. After working on it for a while, (which was not fun) I looked up the solution, and found out that sense I had already worked on it a bit, the solution was useless me! So I had to completely restart the quest and not even attempt to solve it on my own to get past it.

Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.

It seems every update, there's always one quest with a frustrating puzzle that sucks the enjoyment right out of the quest. Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack) Consequently, fewer people run the quest because they don't know the puzzle, depending on some puzzle genius to put together a group and do it for them while they pike. Maybe someday their memorize the puzzle (doesn't that sound fun) and be able to run their own groups (maybe).

So what do people think, should puzzles stay mandatory for quest completion, or should they be optionals for extra for those so inclined?

*snicker*

Splotto
04-29-2011, 01:18 PM
I hate having to kill monsters to finish the quest too. Also, having to open the chests are a real PITA. Maybe they can fix it so we can just zone in and the loot appears in the inventory and you get the XP.

/sarcasm off

Diyon
04-29-2011, 01:19 PM
Fine the way it is. As to the ones you listed, "Rainbow in the Dark," seriously? That's hardly a puzzle. All you freaking do is keep stepping on the buttons until each is the right color, stepping on one doesn't affect any of the others. That's not a puzzle, its just a password entry device. You don't need someone puzzle genius for this, if you're in a group that doesn't have one person who knows how the color code is, you're most likely playing with people who have never ran the quest before. Two, if this is the case and know one knows it, look it up. Messing with it first changes nothing, and it will hardly take any time either way. Once again, its not a puzzle, its a question, which you then provide the answer for.

danotmano1998
04-29-2011, 01:20 PM
I personally don't like the puzzles.
(When I say puzzles, I mean the tile clicking ones.. Especially that horrible 3d one.)

That being said, I don't agree that we should remove them entirely.
Lots of folks enjoy them, some even love them.

If I find a quest that has a puzzle I don't want to spend all of my free time for the evening figuring out, I just load up the browser, and use my google friend. Puzzle solved, and I'm moving on to what I *do* enjoy doing.

falcon2030
04-29-2011, 01:21 PM
I don't like the quests that force you to Hack-n-slash your way to the end so I think they should only be optional for completion. It should be an option for me to be able to just solve a puzzle and finish without having to pick up a sword.


Yeah neither suggestion is likely to make it to development for the simple fact that both are a large part of keeping the quests from being either mindless or headache causing.

I Understand some people don't like puzzles and some don;t like Pure Hack-n-Slash but to eliminate either is to alienate half the player base and would be Bad buisness.

SynalonEtuul
04-29-2011, 01:21 PM
This MMO that caters to thousands of people includes content for other playstyles for some reason?!?!

skwatson
04-29-2011, 01:24 PM
Honestly, the puzzles IMHO are a very integral part of many quests from a RP/Lore standpoint. DDO wouldn't be DDO without them.

Can you imagine the Reaver's Doomsday device having a simple "off" lever? Or terrorists dirty bomb with a big red "Push here to disarm" button?

The characters behind many of these quests are least devious if not outright evil. The addition of mazes (The Crucible) and puzzles (all those mentioned by the OP and more) bring a welcome richness to the game, elevating it from meaningless hack'n'slash to an experience that can engage all aspects of the community.

I abhor some of the puzzles personally, but that's why I don't run Reaver's without a guildie that is efficient in completing the puzzle without a solver. I dislike the lights-out puzzle in the Shroud, but spent time learning the mechanics because I dislike even more having to post "need help with 3x3/5x5 in ***."

If you don't like the puzzle in a certain quest, as other posters have mentioned, join a group with someone willing to do the puzzle or avoid the quest. Outside of the Korthos quests on your first character, there is nothing forcing you to complete ANY specific quest in this game.

Kalari
04-29-2011, 01:24 PM
Not everyone in my guild can or want to do puzzles. What they do in quests like Enter the Kobold is find a spot to relax while those of us who enjoy such things get it done.

Heck I found the puzzle in the Dreaming Dark Quest a bit much for my tastes due to the time we spent in there first learning them. so now I let whoever wants to get it done do it.

Honestly while I can understand your plight why ruin an aspect others like just because you dont? Thats why grouping is a nice game feature when your in a group there is bound to be a chance to get someone into puzzles while you do your kill/spell or what not.

Roisen
04-29-2011, 01:27 PM
wish they'd put in rubik's cube or sudoku for example :p

just imagine solving the cube for quest completion and timed.:eek:

Mr.Delightful
04-29-2011, 01:29 PM
The only puzzle you have listed that I have not experienced is the Inferno of the Damned. From what I have heard of it, I can say with 90% certainty that it, Kobold, and the Crucible are the only valid examples you have given. Here's a list:

Prove Your Worth: 2 minutes experimentation to figure out what the levers do and what happens when a lighted area is hit, follow the dart lines to solve.
Siegebreaker: Run in the pattern of a 5-pointed star. That's all. I've heard tales that you can even just run in a circle, but have not confirmed. Slightly harder, yes, but once you know how(which only takes a single quest run with someone who does) you can't forget.
Rainbow in the Dark: it's a rainbow. Seriously, if you didn't do this your first time through...

Others you neglected to mention:
Tomb of the Tormented: also a valid complaint, but only because of the timing(and time necessary) involved and not so much because of the difficulty of the puzzle.
Ghost of a Chance: puzzle is entirely optional, which is good because it is the only one that is entirely impossible without a specific qualifier, in this case a semi-decent search skill.

Now, you may notice that of the puzzle mentioned, I claim half as valid. Does this mean they need to be optional? Not in all cases. For The Crucible, the puzzle is an entirely necessary part of the challenge. Have to be intelligent to be part of the Storm Brigade and all that. For Inferno, from what I hear the puzzle is all that the quest is, and removing it would remove the quest. For Kobold, it's possible. There's already a treasure chest for solving it, all that would need to be done is remove the barrier on the other side. People would still have to be minorly competent in order to pass through, but would not have to hunt down every single unlit switch. Finally, for Tomb of the Tormented, the puzzle is again all that the quest is.

To sum up: making the puzzles optional would only be both a good idea and possible in Enter the Kobold and Tomb of the Tormented.

Well, you seem to be good at puzzles, and are thus happy with keeping many of them as mandatory for quest completion; I am not. I think that that if Puzzles were optional for quest completion, it would result in more groups for puzzle-filled quests and less frustration for all.

NinjaNeed
04-29-2011, 01:29 PM
wish they'd put in rubik's cube or sudoku for example :p

just imagine solving the cube for quest completion and timed.:eek:

lmao

I got my first rubix cube in 1986 (I think) and still have never solved one!!!

If they introduce a rubix cube into the game I hope we get an option to tear off the stickers and pop them back in the right place lmao

ATF_Gabriel
04-29-2011, 01:32 PM
You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

Then the puzzles serve they're purpose. They are there to frustrate you and annoy you. Not every evil genius is going to just throw mobs of monsters at you. Some are going to get creative and hide their valuables behind puzzles and monsters to try and discourage those that hate them from coming after their hard earned, stolen, created stuff.

That would be like me saying "I wanna be an engineer but I don't want to do the math".

falcon2030
04-29-2011, 01:36 PM
Well, you seem to be good at puzzles, and are thus happy with keeping many of them as mandatory for quest completion; I am not. I think that that if Puzzles were optional for quest completion, it would result in more groups for puzzle-filled quests and less frustration for all.

If you are not good at these puzzles maybe just get someone to do them for you, or better yet learn them. None are that difficult and there are solvers available all over the internet to solve them for you. So the point you are making is moot and unecessary. if you don;t like them move on and don't do the quest. It isn't necessary nor is it fair to force others to play to your style just because you don't like one small part of teh game. And yes they are a very small part of the game (in my opinion too small I feel there should be a lot more)

Koshy11
04-29-2011, 01:37 PM
wish they'd put in rubik's cube or sudoku for example :p

just imagine solving the cube for quest completion and timed.:eek:

/signed for sudoku

/not signed for trying to want things YOUR WAY only because you don't like it. If you take a minute to take a look at it out of your personal perception, you will realize how one sided and unfair your suggestion is, in fact downright unacceptable.

Just don't go to puzzle filled quests if you don't like them. There's so much quests all over the place players can pick what they want to play. No one force you to click on the enter button.

falcon2030
04-29-2011, 01:38 PM
That would be like me saying "I wanna be an engineer but I don't want to do the math".

LOL that made me laugh as I teach Organic Chemistry and hear this ALL too often

+1 to you sir for the laugh as I'm grading finals :D

kyleann
04-29-2011, 01:39 PM
The whole point of the game isn't to kill tons of monsters, it's to complete quests. I suggest you look at a game like the Dynasty Warriors franchise where killing 1000s of mobs is the entirety of the game. DDO has to have puzzles, it's just part of the challenge. In fact, it might be the only challenging part about the game for some people. Anyone can pike a shroud long enough to get GS mats. I've personally seen Paladins who reach level 15 without knowing why they can't cast spells.

As it is, the game is already "too easy", so taking out the puzzles that can be extremely tough and annoying at times would detract from the overall gameplay. From this thread alone you can see that most of us are for rather than against the puzzles. In fact, I think they should get significantly more difficult ones for Epic level play. If you want Epic loot, you have to kill MUCH harder mobs while solving MUCH harder puzzles.

There are much more important things DDO could work on than taking away content.

The_Rocking_Dead
04-29-2011, 01:42 PM
These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

FlimsyFirewood
04-29-2011, 01:44 PM
Ghost of a Chance: puzzle is entirely optional, which is good because it is the only one that is entirely impossible without a specific qualifier, in this case a semi-decent search skill.


Incorrect. Search makes the puzzle from challenging to easy. It is possible to solo it with a cleric or a barbarian with no search at all. I'd recommend doing it on normal first because the guy would not get zapped as hard each time you get something wrong.

jwdaniels
04-29-2011, 01:46 PM
Two devs in one thread? Awesome!

SableShadow
04-29-2011, 01:49 PM
Incorrect. Search makes the puzzle from challenging to easy. It is possible to solo it with a cleric or a barbarian with no search at all. I'd recommend doing it on normal first because the guy would not get zapped as hard each time you get something wrong.

By the by, kudos on the Monestary/Sanyasi tweaks that went in while I was away.

Playing a stealth game of cat n' mouse with him while solving the puzzle is pretty damn cool. :D

Bladedge
04-29-2011, 01:51 PM
If puzzles in this game were always optional they would most likely always be bypass unless the reward is greater then the time spent on the puzzle. But most often the puzzles would always be bypass like many other optionals in the game.

Puzzles, are one aspect of the game that make DDO different from other mmos.


wish they'd put in rubik's cube or sudoku for example :p

just imagine solving the cube for quest completion and timed.:eek:

That would probably make for a nice solo quest, the faster you solve it the more xp you are rewarded. There would also beh a giant gelatinous cube that circles the puzzle that would kill you if your don't solve the puzzle in time.

TheMidnightMage
04-29-2011, 01:58 PM
I say they need to add more interesting puzzles... Turning a few blocks does not a good puzzle make. Do something like have you figure out which alters to cleans anything like that. More like the Start in the Lordsmarch quest chain that thing is sweet!! DnD was always set to have the puzzles and challenges. It was never meant to be a bash and slash game. Power to the puzzles!!!!

falcon2030
04-29-2011, 02:01 PM
These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

So what you are saying here RD is that we that Those of us that like puzzles should just look for another game?

Because, I know that when puggin a quest where the puzzles are optional anyone who wants to solve them is harassed into not solving them/wasting others time (only exception I can think of is the shroud puzzles for loot). That is not fun for those of us that do not like the mindless Hack-n-Slash. So, please keep some quests that require puzzle solving for completion or at the very least make it so that solving them is not looked upon as waste of time by those that enjoy the mindless.

Gkar
04-29-2011, 02:04 PM
These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

Thanks for posting, and good call on the design choice.

If I could suggest a "tweak" to "optional" being not just making puzzels (and traps for that matter) ways to get at an extra chest, but as ways to find a faster/easier path.

So...take the left fork and there is a complex puzzel or a nasty trap. Disable it and you have a clear run to the next objective. Or take the right fork and there is no puzzle or trap but there are lots of bad guys that need killing.

It brings variety to the quest and changes the quest based on party makeup and playstyle.

somenewnoob
04-29-2011, 02:07 PM
Thanks for posting, and good call on the design choice.

If I could suggest a "tweak" to "optional" being not just making puzzels (and traps for that matter) ways to get at an extra chest, but as ways to find a faster/easier path.

So...take the left fork and there is a complex puzzel or a nasty trap. Disable it and you have a clear run to the next objective. Or take the right fork and there is no puzzle or trap but there are lots of bad guys that need killing.

It brings variety to the quest and changes the quest based on party makeup and playstyle.

That's a fine idea. I like that. +1

Ralmeth
04-29-2011, 02:17 PM
/Not Signed

Different quests are in the game for different people. If you don't enjoy solving puzzles and a certain quest has a puzzle in it that you need to solve, then why would you solo these quests? That sounds painful for you. Instead just join or form a group with someone else who wants to solve the puzzle and just pike the puzzle part. I see people do this all the time.

SardaofChaos
04-29-2011, 02:24 PM
Incorrect. Search makes the puzzle from challenging to easy. It is possible to solo it with a cleric or a barbarian with no search at all. I'd recommend doing it on normal first because the guy would not get zapped as hard each time you get something wrong.

In this case I was more referring to when doing it for the very first time, if you don't have a clue where the wrong tiles are then you have to be kinda lucky to not kill him. I know you're a dev and all, but I am speaking from experience here. I killed him the first three times :P Wrong choice of words on my part, not really impossible but unlikely. Cleric would make it much easier since you can just heal him back up.

Shaamis
04-29-2011, 02:27 PM
You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

Puzzles are an integrated part of Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game. It's the challenge that a party of adventurers skulking through a dark, ominous dungeon sometimes encounter. strength or arms, and quickness of foot cannot get you past this obstacle, but rather your strength of knowledge and quickness of wit.

a true adventurer will tackle any obstacle, any monster, or any puzzle, to complete their quest.

Are you not a true adventurer?

Uska
04-29-2011, 02:31 PM
No for some quests it should be required sorry dont need things to be easier and besides there are solvers for all puzzles available

Angelus_dead
04-29-2011, 02:31 PM
A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.
It's unfortunate to keep putting puzzles off in side rooms, as that makes them less prominent and the main process of beating the quest seems less special.

A variant I like is a puzzle on the main path of the quest, but with a combat bypass right there, so that players who can't/won't do the puzzle can work around it by fighting an extra-powerful enemy.

Uska
04-29-2011, 02:31 PM
You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

then dont do those quests

Uska
04-29-2011, 02:33 PM
From my experience, interesting is far more common than frustrating. Like someone else said, group with someone to do the puzzles and handle the parts that you don't want to handle. There are so many different quests and features in DDO, you can easily pick and choose what to play and what not to play.

Personally, I find halfling monks frustrating because they tend to be twitchy little speedballs on crack, but I wouldn't want them removed because other people enjoy playing them.

+1 but should be -1 cause you made me spit on my keyboard:eek:

Uska
04-29-2011, 02:38 PM
These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

I would still like to see some required puzzles in some quests because even though I am not good at them its classic dnd

Uska
04-29-2011, 02:40 PM
It's unfortunate to keep putting puzzles off in side rooms, as that makes them less prominent and the main process of beating the quest seems less special.

A variant I like is a puzzle on the main path of the quest, but with a combat bypass right there, so that players who can't/won't do the puzzle can work around it by fighting an extra-powerful enemy.

I like this idea

SardaofChaos
04-29-2011, 02:44 PM
^ Seconded. That way people who can't do puzzles don't have to and people who can get to have fun.

Zharfie
04-29-2011, 03:01 PM
My only complaint is that there aren't really any puzzles in this game at all... all existing "puzzles" are trivial walkthroughs... yawn...

also

Inferno of the Damned HAS NO PUZZLES, it's just run through and kill stuff quest, like everything else, so boring... bring in more puzzles!

Seikojin
04-29-2011, 03:04 PM
These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

That is unfortunate. I think after a certain point, puzzles should be part of the critical path.

The beauty of DnD is you could have your cake and eat it too. Just add a new quest line that involves puzzling.

I would like to see more stealth friendly quests. Everyone hates to admit it, but stealthy repo is one of the more challenging styles of quest to do good with no knowledge of rushing it.

Lagin
04-29-2011, 03:06 PM
Survey Said!

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/Woody/xxx.gif?t=1304107525


I can't believe you actually made this post, so you get 0 points

/ NOT SIGNED

TheMidnightMage
04-29-2011, 03:13 PM
It would be nice to get a special completion bonus for getting all the puzzles. Hmmmm That's a thought, however I stand by my original statement.

khaldan
04-29-2011, 03:14 PM
Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack)

You listed all of these, including rainbow in the dark, but skip the entire titan raid?

BOTH of those quests are almost entirely puzzles, and unlike and of these(with the possible exception of siegebreaker, haven't done it yet), are possible to screw up to the point of uncompletable.

And not just in one of the puzzles, in EVERY puzzle.

Crucible isn't that bad, it's just like every other quest in learning which corridor to run down. Rainbow is, or at least should be, very obvious. Inferno is fairly convoluted, but hey, it's like regular DnD, make a map! Prove your worth is also simple, and is fairly easy to brute force and just try every combination.

Honestly, I'd love for more puzzles to be put in the game, a la titan. Something where worthwhile raid loot is gettable through puzzle solving, not mass murder. Would have to be something that required teamwork (green side pre Ddoor, red side), otherwise there's not much point to it though.

pie2655
04-29-2011, 03:15 PM
Really, someone else asking for a easy button. The challenge of the game has been reduced to much already, I enjoy the puzzles. In fact id like to see MORE puuzzles

Cyr
04-29-2011, 03:25 PM
While I enjoy puzzles to a degree I also dislike puzzles being the main focus of a quest.

The reasoning here is simple, there is no good way to scale a puzzle for more powerful characters. Traps to punish you for doing something wrong in a puzzle really do not make the challenge that much harder for a first level toon compared to a capped toon, as long as someone bothers looking up the solution or knows the puzzle.

So puzzles are good, but don't make them the culmination of anything. Oh, kobold is a good puzzle...it's not the main challenge in the quest as the end fight is not a complete push over.

elujin
04-29-2011, 03:33 PM
i like puzzels
its even my favorit part in the shroud only thing that is chalanging about the thing with out a solver trying to learn the top down thingy

Cauthey
04-29-2011, 03:34 PM
/not signed.

I love the puzzles. If you can't do the puzzle, just group with someone else that can. Or, go run a slayer or a quest like Kobold Assault.

The_Rocking_Dead
04-29-2011, 06:20 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that puzzles won't ever be part of the critical path! It's simply a matter of catering to a larger audience. We want to cater to the people who love puzzles, and we don't want to leave the people who don't like them in the dust.

Personally, I'm one of the people who love puzzles, and love to see levels where puzzles play a prominent role.

Scraap
04-29-2011, 06:43 PM
The sheer raw dps levels are already quickly devolving the game into dungeons that might as well be played on a flat plane with sacks of meat to beat on.

/Not in any way shape or form signed. Ever.

Gulnar13
04-29-2011, 06:48 PM
Just get rid of the Tomb of Tormented one. The rest of the game is fine, even the (very) Enter the Kobold one, which would benefit a LOT by a "viewing" room ahead, just to see if someone skipped a tile.

Mr.Delightful
04-29-2011, 06:49 PM
These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

Thanks for the response The Rocking Dead! It's good to know that in the future I will not be angrily staring at yet another unavoidable force barrier while the pressure plates laugh at me :)


Just to be clear, I'm not saying that puzzles won't ever be part of the critical path! It's simply a matter of catering to a larger audience. We want to cater to the people who love puzzles, and we don't want to leave the people who don't like them in the dust.

Personally, I'm one of the people who love puzzles, and love to see levels where puzzles play a prominent role.


Or perhaps I still will, but hopefully, less. After all fewer "MUST DO" puzzles is better than more.

But do you think it likely that sometime in the future existing "MUST DO" puzzles could be bypassed in return for giving up some bonus exp/loot?

Bladedge
04-29-2011, 07:14 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that puzzles won't ever be part of the critical path! It's simply a matter of catering to a larger audience. We want to cater to the people who love puzzles, and we don't want to leave the people who don't like them in the dust.

The following is not directed to The_Rocking_Dead but to Turbine in general.

Is this the same large audience that would like to see puzzles, traps remove from the game, want hp & spell regen, want mobs to drop loot and give xp, had lock doors and chest almost become non existent, had ability score runes lowered and group require quest nearly disappear, don't like platforming type quest?

If that is the larger audience turbine wants to cater to then just come out and say so , so those who like these aspects of the game came move on, while DDO becomes like the other hundred mmos on the market.

Myrddinman
04-29-2011, 07:16 PM
I also wanted to weigh in and thank the Devs for finally allowing color-blinded people solve puzzles too :D

auximenes
04-29-2011, 07:21 PM
Please don't remove the puzzles. I'd like more, actually.

justhavinfun
04-29-2011, 07:31 PM
/not signed

I can hack and slash all day without even thinking about it. The puzzles allow me to use my brain instead of just punching keys to kill a mob. Puzzles and intricate trap setups are one of my favorite tools as a DM. Unfortunately the puzzles are making some people use the weakest muscle in their bodies. I personally enjoy using that muscle(the brain) and reaping the benifits of the exercise I just gave it.

HanseShadowen
04-29-2011, 08:12 PM
/not signed.

I like'm. This isn't WoW or Diablo II where all we do is hack and slash.

KillEveryone
04-29-2011, 09:19 PM
If we are going to remove puzzles...

As soon as I click accept on the difficulty, I should get all contents of every chest in that quest with maximum XP and be put directly in front of the quest giver for my reward.

Soooooo.....

/not signed.

Just don't do those quests by yourself or run those quests with someone that can deal with the puzzle.

The puzzles in the quest are part of that quest. I would like to see a larger variety of puzzles beyond lights out or connect the line.

The Crucible is one of my favorite quests. The puzzles and challenges are great.

I just hate Inferno but that is from farming for a sigil and I hate the mephits because they just annoy me. I do like the idea behind the quest so I don't fault it too much and the quest itself is the puzzle...I still hate it because of the mephits and farming that last sigil I needed.

You will probably dislike Ascention Chamber. This is a great quest also and I really like Goggles and Ice puzzles. Meteors is just aim and shoot, not much of a puzzle.

I like Prove Your Worth. I like all the puzzles in Three Barrel Cove. This is one of my favorite packs...still wish there was more reason to run out there beyond favor...and I really like the quests in this pack, especially the puzzles.

Rainbow is really not difficult. Don't see your problem with it. Kind of lame I'll admit but they need something with a rainbow in that quest.

Puzzles are supposed to be part of the quest. Some have them as an optional, others require them to be solved.

Solmage
04-29-2011, 09:34 PM
Hah, what other thing will noobies want to take away from the game because it's too hard.

Raindbow in the dark ... puzzle genius required.. ok. I find I have nothing constructive to reply to that.

As to the devs: The odd must be solved puzzle here and there (Reaver's, for example) is just fine - using solvers for those who can't is just fine. As long as the rest of the quest is/was fun (Monastery, f.ex) the quest gets run, a lot. It adds an enormous amount of flavour and enjoyment to not just be able to zerg down every dungeon swinging a sword and getting a 'reward' .

SardaofChaos
04-29-2011, 09:35 PM
...As long as the rest of the quest is/was fun...

Or, to use your example of Piker's Fate, even if it's not...

Solmage
04-29-2011, 09:39 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that puzzles won't ever be part of the critical path! It's simply a matter of catering to a larger audience. We want to cater to the people who love puzzles, and we don't want to leave the people who don't like them in the dust.

Personally, I'm one of the people who love puzzles, and love to see levels where puzzles play a prominent role.

Thanks.

sirgog
04-29-2011, 09:45 PM
The puzzles I dislike are the ones where one person works on the puzzle and the whole party/raid has almost nothing to do until they solve it - eg VON5, Monastery on difficulties below Elite, Tomb of the Tormented, Abbot (assuming Goggles takes 5 times as long as each other puzzle, as is usually the case).

The ones I like are the optional ones, or the ones where the puzzle is a component of a combat encounter. Sunken Parish, Siegebreaker, Elite Monastery (where you need party members 'guarding' the puzzle from unlimited respawns), and so on.

Vanquishedfo
04-29-2011, 10:01 PM
My problem with the puzzles in DDO is they are completely opposite of RP and D&D and really dont belong in any game that uses RPG in its description.

Why? Well really because of 2 simple stats. Wis and Int. These stats are the facets of a character that alone should be taken into account. The cunning to solve puzzles, or the wisdom answer a riddle or some variance of that. Im all for a bardic lore skill or the like existing as well. But the fact is only bad DMs who where in fact meta gaming ever asked the players to think of answers to riddles, or figure out some puzzle. Typically done by DMs who found said riddles and puzzles elsewhere and thought it would be oh so clever to use them to stump his group.

I am sorry if you like the puzzles you need to play a puzzle game like puzzle quest, a rpg that uses puzzles in a way they belong without making some aspect of your character seem under used.

I say remove all puzzles and replace them with int or wis runes simple as that. Since quests which used to have parts that made those Essential have typically been dummied down it also shows people want thier characters to not be to clever either. However I would much rather the game punish smart people with simple minded characters rather then simple players who made smart or wise characters.

Kmnh
04-29-2011, 10:01 PM
Put a required puzzle on every quest below level 7. That should weed out the monkeys that are ruining PUGs



ps: This is supposed to be a joke. Kind of.

MsEricka
04-29-2011, 10:24 PM
More puzzles.. bring em on!

A quest filled only with random puzzles? Yes please.
A quest where puzzles have to be done simultaneously? Yes please.

Postumus
04-29-2011, 10:45 PM
There are sammich tank -n- spank games


Yes, but aren't most of those on adult web sites?

Postumus
04-29-2011, 10:47 PM
Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.




I have a serious question for you. Would you purchase a DDO store item that auto-solved your puzzle for you?


Call it a 'Bell of Puzzling' or "Puzzle Mephit" whatever.


Seems like that would be an opportunity for Turbine to make some money.

bigolbear
04-29-2011, 11:08 PM
no. flat out no.

puzels are in fact a core part of the traditional d&d experience, just like encounters with bad guys, traps and chests full of loot.

most of the puzels in ddo are fairly simple and those that arent are not mandatory (im thinking 5x5's in shroud for the inexperienced puzel solver).

Im uterly flabergasted that you find the 'puzel' in rainbow in the dark tricky - you never seen a rainbow or something? Sadly you are not by your self here, ive seen many people strugle with this which i have to say makes me chuckle and sad at the same time.

I would say i stand in opposition to your view on this, I would like more puzels, more roleplay, more dialogue choices and less hacky chopy death.

I respect your opinion but i cannot bring my self to agree with you - lets be happy that you get some quests that are zerg fest hack n slash and i get some quests where its beneficial to read the dialogue, look behind the curtains and ocasionaly have to engage my grey matter, ddo is a big enough place for both i think.

sirgog
04-29-2011, 11:15 PM
More puzzles.. bring em on!

A quest filled only with random puzzles? Yes please.
A quest where puzzles have to be done simultaneously? Yes please.

Simultaneous puzzles sounds like the Titan preraid, one of the game's most hated quests.



no. flat out no.

puzels are in fact a core part of the traditional d&d experience, just like encounters with bad guys, traps and chests full of loot.

most of the puzels in ddo are fairly simple and those that arent are not mandatory (im thinking 5x5's in shroud for the inexperienced puzel solver).

Im uterly flabergasted that you find the 'puzel' in rainbow in the dark tricky - you never seen a rainbow or something? Sadly you are not by your self here, ive seen many people strugle with this which i have to say makes me chuckle and sad at the same time.

I would say i stand in opposition to your view on this, I would like more puzels, more roleplay, more dialogue choices and less hacky chopy death.

I respect your opinion but i cannot bring my self to agree with you - lets be happy that you get some quests that are zerg fest hack n slash and i get some quests where its beneficial to read the dialogue, look behind the curtains and ocasionaly have to engage my grey matter, ddo is a big enough place for both i think.

If you really want to roleplay it - My Wizard has a 40 Intelligence. Assuming the 'average' human is a 10.5 Int with a standard deviation of around 3 (about how 3d6 is spread), they are 10 standard deviations above the norm.

In IQ terms, 10 SDs above the mean is an IQ of around 250 - high enough that by comparison, Albert Einstein must have been dropped on his head as a baby.

My Wizard could, if we roleplayed the puzzle, solve the Monastery puzzle in the split second before proving (or disproving) the Riemann hypothesis and calculating the meaning of life.

HanseShadowen
04-29-2011, 11:19 PM
A puzzle mephit seems a cop out and I think it would be seens a crutch. but far more acceptible than an option to not have them. Personally I can see some adding "no puzzle mephits" to LFM's so it would a two-edged sword.

Xyfiel
04-29-2011, 11:33 PM
When you ask for something to be changed to better fit your playstyle, you are asking to take something away from other players playstyle. There are very few quests with other avenues besides massacreing everything in the way. There are also many quests that people don't enjoy. We simply don't do them, do them at a higher level to make it go quicker, or pike them. You are asking for something that will affect other people negatively, essentially passing your dislike to others. Sounds selfish to me.

Mr.Delightful
04-30-2011, 12:24 AM
When you ask for something to be changed to better fit your playstyle, you are asking to take something away from other players playstyle. There are very few quests with other avenues besides massacreing everything in the way. There are also many quests that people don't enjoy. We simply don't do them, do them at a higher level to make it go quicker, or pike them. You are asking for something that will affect other people negatively, essentially passing your dislike to others. Sounds selfish to me.

Selfish?


Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.

There is nothing in my suggestion that involves "taking" anything from anyone; I don't want puzzles to disappear from DDO, or development on them to cease, all I want is to make their completion optional in regards to quest completion.

Furthermore, I fail to see how my suggestion could effect anyone negatively; you like puzzles, you do them and cash in. You don't, you bypass the puzzle and you complete the quest. Certainly seems to be a "win-win" to me :)

Although, as Sirgog mentioned:


The ones I like are the optional ones, or the ones where the puzzle is a component of a combat encounter. Sunken Parish, Siegebreaker, Elite Monastery (where you need party members 'guarding' the puzzle from unlimited respawns), and so on.

If Turbine wants to work a puzzle smoothly into a combat encounter, I don't object. It would be fine if completion of that puzzle/combat encounter was required for completion, as long as the encounter featured a choice: solve the puzzle and weaken/kill the boss or do it "the old fashion way" with brute force (with the puzzle way being more efficient).

The key problem I have with existing "MUST DO" puzzles is they do not offer a choice. The biggest draw of an RPG, for me, is choice. I do not like to have to solve a problem only 1 way, and if I do, I should at least have the option to solve it by not solving it, which my above suggestion would allow (by not requiring puzzle completion to finish the quest).

Additionally, I hate the puzzles that function as a sort of "combat intermission" (like Shroud part 3, Enter the Kobold, The Crucible, etc) that slams the momentum of the quest right into a brick wall. Its like the DM is popping in and saying "Hey, you're having lots of fun playing an action RPG right? Here's some Myst! Enjoy!

I hope I have made my suggestion, and the reasoning behind it, clear. Thank you for listening :)

FuzzyDuck81
04-30-2011, 04:47 AM
I like the way the optional puzzle with the wheels works in the last part of the new chain - after a little while the flayer says "how long does it take you to solve simple addition" (or something similar) which is a handy little pointer without giving away the solution.
Not sure how practical & possible it'd be to implement but maybe something similar could be done for other puzzles, including those on the main path - after a while without it being solved, you get a hint, maybe based off spot/search/int/wisdom/whatever that might start to highlight the correct position of a couple of tiles or whatever, or one highlights in a different colour "your eye is drawn to this tile/symbol in particular" or "your intuition tells you this is important" - nothing too major but again, just little pointers that guide people to how to figure out the solution.

SardaofChaos
04-30-2011, 09:15 AM
Additionally, I hate the puzzles that function as a sort of "combat intermission" (like Shroud part 3, Enter the Kobold, The Crucible, etc) that slams the momentum of the quest right into a brick wall. Its like the DM is popping in and saying "Hey, you're having lots of fun playing an action RPG right? Here's some Myst! Enjoy!

Hey, did you know DDO isn't an action RPG? Here's some WoW! Enjoy!

GeneralDiomedes
04-30-2011, 11:44 AM
There is nothing in my suggestion that involves "taking" anything from anyone; I don't want puzzles to disappear from DDO, or development on them to cease, all I want is to make their completion optional in regards to quest completion.


However, optionals are rarely done, especially puzzle optionals. Mandatory puzzles give puzzle solvers and leaders a chance to shine. You are taking something from the game when you do that.



Furthermore, I fail to see how my suggestion could effect anyone negatively; you like puzzles, you do them and cash in. You don't, you bypass the puzzle and you complete the quest. Certainly seems to be a "win-win" to me :)


Then how come it feels like I'm losing? The Crucible just wouldn't be the same without the puzzles.

Are you opposed to trap gauntlets that can't be disabled, such as the Crucible swim, or the Ghola Fan hallway? Those are some of my favorite moments in the game, in no small part because failure is not an option.

I suppose as long as the reward is major, like 1/2 of the possible XP, 1/2 of the chests, unique crafting ingredients, or named loot. Something that makes solving the puzzle worth enough so the majority of the groups running the quest would want to attempt it. But I'd still be losing.

SisAmethyst
04-30-2011, 09:09 PM
...What I really hate are puzzles that force me to go through them to complete the quest. I was just going through "Enter the Kobold" today, and I was reminded how much puzzles really ruin large parts of the game for me. After working on it for a while, (which was not fun) I looked up the solution, and found out that sense I had already worked on it a bit, the solution was useless me!...

...Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack) ...

Dunno what you mean the solution was useless to you?

But to be honest I hope this puzzle stay as it is. First of all I agree with a lot of others that puzzles in this game make it different and not just a MMO hack'n slash clone. Also for most of the puzzles out there exists a whole bunch of solvers and guides for those that don't get used to them. Last but not least it is a game with a group aspect, that mean have someone guide you through. And I not believe it is true that some of those quests are really run that rare, especially Gianthold.

By the way regarding the examples mentioned: The story behind "Prove Your Worth" is exactly to solve those riddles. It would completely contradict and break the entire quest if those are removed. The puzzle in Siegebreaker is so basic and easy that it is really a non issue and with a Trapsmith even a joke. The rainbow at the end of "Rainbow in the Dark" belongs to the storyline and except of color blind player this is such an easy to solve thing that I wouldn't even name it puzzle. This is more a question of your coordination skills, but even then you should at least be able to jump on each tile till the correct color is shown.

I don't know where in "Inferno of the Damned" a puzzle is, except of the maze like structure. But there as well, get someone to lead you through. This quest is run quite regularly that it shouldn't be an issue to find someone that guide you through. Needless to say that it somehow belongs to the quest to have the fire plane connected with the Eberron plane and it would make the quest just too easy if you would just go north, south, west and east in a room and light torches without a little maze.

Finally "The Crucible" is a really fun quest and stands out between others. It is a challenge to go through and belongs to the story of the quest. A question of teamwork with different kind of characters. It would break the story of that quest like in "Prove Your Worth" if you could just bypass it, as this would mean: Enter one single room - slay all Hobgoblins/Orcs/Gnolls - get reward ... meehhhh

PS: It is optional to run most of those quests at all, as you can achieve level 20 even without doing them!

just my 2 cents

adamkatt
04-30-2011, 09:13 PM
I don't like puzzles, but I realize some do. What I really hate are puzzles that force me to go through them to complete the quest. I was just going through "Enter the Kobold" today, and I was reminded how much puzzles really ruin large parts of the game for me. After working on it for a while, (which was not fun) I looked up the solution, and found out that sense I had already worked on it a bit, the solution was useless me! So I had to completely restart the quest and not even attempt to solve it on my own to get past it.

Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.

It seems every update, there's always one quest with a frustrating puzzle that sucks the enjoyment right out of the quest. Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack) Consequently, fewer people run the quest because they don't know the puzzle, depending on some puzzle genius to put together a group and do it for them while they pike. Maybe someday their memorize the puzzle (doesn't that sound fun) and be able to run their own groups (maybe).

So what do people think, should puzzles stay mandatory for quest completion, or should they be optionals for extra for those so inclined?

I agree, ill load up Hoyle Puzzle and Board games if i want puzzles..

SardaofChaos
04-30-2011, 10:35 PM
Honestly? I agree with whoever said that if they do become entirely optional, solving them should make up at least half of the treasure and xp gained from doing the quest. Ghost of a Chance is on the right track.

DrenglisEU
04-30-2011, 10:43 PM
/not signed! There are puzzzle I like and don't like but still they are part of the whole game atmosphere

winsom
05-01-2011, 01:09 AM
I would agree with the OP as far as major quests, such as raid pre-reqs. Im sure the devs would enjoy All Types of players in that content, so they should limit the uberness of the puzzles in these mainstream raid adventures.

In raids and raid flagging quests the puzzles should be kept to the scope of Shroud part 2, or Enter the Kobold. Enter the Kobold is not a required puzzle element any longer. You can do the other parts of the series and still proceed to Stealer of Souls without stepping foot into Kobold.

Examples of bad puzzles are Abbot raid puzzles (last I knew), or ToD kiting part 2, or controlling the Gun in Titan raid. These are typically done with less than full group participation = boring for the other people. Failure in these will result in a complete raid failure = not fun for those not involved, and probably not fun those that failed the "puzzle" either.

I beleive failure at this types of "puzzle" play should result in partial failures, the loss of some nice potential loot, but not the loss of the final end chest if the primary objectives of the adventure can still be met. That is my opinion on how adventure should be written and older mainstream raid-like adventures retooled for the general population that likes puzzles to different degrees.

Razcar
05-01-2011, 06:17 AM
The puzzles are something that help make DDO special. There are many - most even - MMOs which are less cerebral than this one, so that part of the market is already very well catered for. Let's please keep DDO a game where you occasionally have to think a little. Having your gaming be a bit "al dente" is only good for you.

Ladislav
05-01-2011, 08:27 AM
My problem with the puzzles in DDO is they are completely opposite of RP and D&D and really dont belong in any game that uses RPG in its description.

Why? Well really because of 2 simple stats. Wis and Int.

It's a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. Stats are not supposed to supercede roleplay, they are supposed to support it. The ideal would actually be puzzles where you could get some minor clues from having a high stat to assist you, but removing them entirely would actually be removing roleplay encounters.

If not, why bother having anything other than just continuous monster encounters.

In the end though, prior arguments have made the point nicely. This isn't WoW. This is a roleplaying game, which means we need encounters other than just combat. Social encounters are a nightmare without a gm to interact with, so you're looking at acrobatics, puzzles and similar things to make things more interesting.

TheMidnightMage
05-01-2011, 09:20 AM
My problem with the puzzles in DDO is they are completely opposite of RP and D&D and really dont belong in any game that uses RPG in its description.

Why? Well really because of 2 simple stats. Wis and Int. These stats are the facets of a character that alone should be taken into account. The cunning to solve puzzles, or the wisdom answer a riddle or some variance of that. Im all for a bardic lore skill or the like existing as well. But the fact is only bad DMs who where in fact meta gaming ever asked the players to think of answers to riddles, or figure out some puzzle. Typically done by DMs who found said riddles and puzzles elsewhere and thought it would be oh so clever to use them to stump his group.

I do agree with this my suggestion would just take more programing. I would say depending on your "Wis/Int" that the puzzle should give you the "Path" to solve it, Quite like the hint/cheat button in other computer puzzles, but this also means that the puzzles should be random without a "true" solution. So the people without hi int or wis have to mess with it till they get it right.. Now that would be real DnD

Uska
05-01-2011, 09:32 AM
I like the idea some posted that if you bypass the puzzle you get half loot and xp add to that the other idea that you have a tough fight to go through to be able to by pass the puzzles

ceiswyn
05-01-2011, 09:55 AM
Selfish?

Selfish. You don't like something, so you want never to have to do it. As various people have pointed out, that's no different from saying 'I don't like fighting, so all fighting should be optional'.


Furthermore, I fail to see how my suggestion could effect anyone negatively; you like puzzles, you do them and cash in. You don't, you bypass the puzzle and you complete the quest. Certainly seems to be a "win-win" to me :)

It's because you are asking for DDO to be changed to minimise a specific one of the many aspects of the game. Now, DDO is a game of variety; variety in builds, variety in roles and spell effects, and variety in quests. That means it has something for everyone, because everyone enjoys different things. What you are trying to do is prioritise combat over puzzles; and then being surprised when the people who enjoy puzzles object.

As it is, we have a lot of quests that require combat, a few quests that require timing and acrobatics, and a few quests that require puzzles. And of the well over two hundred quests in this game you managed to name, what, half a dozen that really frustrate you? I'd say that shows a pretty good balance on the part of the devs, myself.


Additionally, I hate the puzzles that function as a sort of "combat intermission" (like Shroud part 3, Enter the Kobold, The Crucible, etc) that slams the momentum of the quest right into a brick wall.

I love the change of pace.

Why don't you go through all your posts, mentally change 'puzzles' to 'combat' and vice versa. Now; how do you feel about that as a suggestion? Because that's basically what you've asked to do to us.

ceiswyn
05-01-2011, 10:11 AM
If I could suggest a "tweak" to "optional" being not just making puzzels (and traps for that matter) ways to get at an extra chest, but as ways to find a faster/easier path.

So...take the left fork and there is a complex puzzel or a nasty trap. Disable it and you have a clear run to the next objective. Or take the right fork and there is no puzzle or trap but there are lots of bad guys that need killing.

It brings variety to the quest and changes the quest based on party makeup and playstyle.

/signed.

RJBsComputer
05-01-2011, 12:56 PM
I believe the puzzle in Enter the Kobold, the one you dislike, is the one where you have to light all of the floor tiles to lower the barrier so you can move on. The only problem is that all the floor tiles are sealed off in individle barrier walled rooms. On the ground is a set of crystals that teleport you to another section of the room. Well if this is the "PUZZLE" you hate, then you never really look at how you move through the room. It is simple based on how a knight moves across the chessboard. Which means it really isn't a puzzle at all but a test of player's intelligence.

As pointed out, there are plenty of other options for you to take to reach 20th level. Do not impose your wants onto everyone else. Just because you don't like quests with solve this "puzzle" to move forward, doesn't mean everyone agrues with we. Besides that, finishing that quest helps to unlock the way for you to get DT armor, and that should not be easy.

SisAmethyst
05-01-2011, 01:39 PM
I believe the puzzle in Enter the Kobold, the one you dislike, is the one where you have to light all of the floor tiles to lower the barrier so you can move on. The only problem is that all the floor tiles are sealed off in individle barrier walled rooms. On the ground is a set of crystals that teleport you to another section of the room. Well if this is the "PUZZLE" you hate, then you never really look at how you move through the room. It is simple based on how a knight moves across the chessboard. Which means it really isn't a puzzle at all but a test of player's intelligence.

As pointed out, there are plenty of other options for you to take to reach 20th level. Do not impose your wants onto everyone else. Just because you don't like quests with solve this "puzzle" to move forward, doesn't mean everyone agrues with we. Besides that, finishing that quest helps to unlock the way for you to get DT armor, and that should not be easy.

Hehe, well, I guess most puzzles are some kind of intelligence/logic test :) But yes, I am certain it is the chessboard puzzle with the optional chest. And I agree that the DT shouldn't be an easy button and they already turned down that quest a lot (specifically the endboss).

cdemeritt
05-01-2011, 01:43 PM
next you will want to be able to go through VOD while in a cheerleader outfit attacking sulu with Pom Poms

If those Pom Poms are +6 Holy Silver of Greater Evil Outsider Bane, I'd say go for it

whitehawk74
05-01-2011, 01:53 PM
I want more puzzles and a bigger variety and I want them to be randomized all the time. It's not really a puzzle if its the same every time. (eg: the pit).

Puzzles promotes teamwork and communication and brains... yes, thinking and solving.

Puzzle solving is a big part of AD&D and I love them.

/not signed.

Mr.Delightful
05-01-2011, 02:02 PM
hummm

Selfish. You don't like something, so you want never to have to do it. As various people have pointed out, that's no different from saying 'I don't like fighting, so all fighting should be optional'..

I am not selfish. I am far from the only one who plays and enjoys DDO but dislikes puzzles; my suggestion is for the benefit of the DDO community as a whole, which is composed of people who may or may not frequent the forums.


It's because you are asking for DDO to be changed to minimise a specific one of the many aspects of the game. Now, DDO is a game of variety; variety in builds, variety in roles and spell effects, and variety in quests. That means it has something for everyone, because everyone enjoys different things. What you are trying to do is prioritise combat over puzzles; and then being surprised when the people who enjoy puzzles object

As it is, we have a lot of quests that require combat, a few quests that require timing and acrobatics, and a few quests that require puzzles. And of the well over two hundred quests in this game you managed to name, what, half a dozen that really frustrate you? I'd say that shows a pretty good balance on the part of the devs, myself....

Combat is already prioritized over puzzles, for a reason. I doubt DDO would be doing well (or even still be around) if combat instead took a backseat to puzzles. For example, contrast the successfulness of Online RPGs to Online Puzzles games (PPGS?). Also, you can avoid much of the combat in the game via use of stealth and/or invisibility if you truly dislike combat so much, though I do doubt anyone who so hates combat would play DDO at all (considering its action RPG style combat).

(Below posted to show what Ceiswyn was reacting to)

Additionally, I hate the puzzles that function as a sort of "combat intermission" (like Shroud part 3, Enter the Kobold, The Crucible, etc) that slams the momentum of the quest right into a brick wall. Its like the DM is popping in and saying "Hey, you're having lots of fun playing an action RPG right? Here's some Myst! Enjoy!


I love the change of pace.

Why don't you go through all your posts, mentally change 'puzzles' to 'combat' and vice versa. Now; how do you feel about that as a suggestion? Because that's basically what you've asked to do to us.!

As I mentioned above, a method existed for bypassing much of the combat in the game; via use of stealth and/or invisibility. While you cannot avoid all the fighting, I would guess that the vast majority of the DDO playerbase would not want to! I greatly suspect that it is the fighting that most of the playerbase comes for, a prospect that is uncomfortable for some people.

ceiswyn
05-01-2011, 02:32 PM
I am not selfish. I am far from the only one who plays and enjoys DDO but dislikes puzzles; my suggestion is for the benefit of the DDO community as a whole, which is composed of people who may or may not frequent the forums.

However, unless you believe that puzzle-lovers are over-represented on the forums for some reason, the reaction here strongly suggests that your view is in more of a minority than you assumed.

The reasonable response to this discovery, by the way, is to go 'oh, well if everyone else likes puzzles, then fair enough, it was just a thought', not to appeal to a fictitious silent majority who agree with you.


Also, you can avoid much of the combat in the game via use of stealth and/or invisibility if you truly dislike combat so much

There speaks someone who hasn't tried it :)

In any case, you are arguing against a specific detail rather than addressing the point that I and others have made. As a matter of fact, I don't hate combat; I enjoy combat and puzzles both. I was attempting to explain why your idea is so unpopular in terms that might make sense to you. Did you try the mental experiment of turning things around? Did you dislike it, even though combat would still be there for people who liked combat, just as you suggested for puzzles?


I greatly suspect that it is the fighting that most of the playerbase comes for, a prospect that is uncomfortable for some people.

If it were just fighting I wanted I'd be playing WoW. DDO's unique selling proposition is its variety; fighting, puzzles, jumping, crafting. Anything that hampers that variety is a bad thing for the game in general, however nice individuals might find it. For the benefit of the community as a whole, who from what I can see here appear to rather like the occasional mental challenge, it's quite obvious that puzzles should be kept in the mainstream of the game, not sidelined in favour of simple hack'n'slash.

KillEveryone
05-01-2011, 02:45 PM
hummm


I am not selfish. I am far from the only one who plays and enjoys DDO but dislikes puzzles; my suggestion is for the benefit of the DDO community as a whole, which is composed of people who may or may not frequent the forums.


What makes you think you are in the majority though?

This so called "benefit" will also harm the community as a whole because you are asking for quests to be designed without having to do a puzzle and there are puzzle lovers in the game.

I would also say that it is a selfish request unless you can prove that your view is the same as the majority of the community.


As I mentioned above, a method existed for bypassing much of the combat in the game; via use of stealth and/or invisibility. While you cannot avoid all the fighting, I would guess that the vast majority of the DDO playerbase would not want to! I greatly suspect that it is the fighting that most of the playerbase comes for, a prospect that is uncomfortable for some people.

I do like the fighting but it isn't all fighting. I like the puzzles and would like to see a lot more. Mindlessly slaughtering stuff is boring and I want something else in there to make me think about what I need to do.

Tarragon12
05-01-2011, 06:00 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that puzzles won't ever be part of the critical path! It's simply a matter of catering to a larger audience. We want to cater to the people who love puzzles, and we don't want to leave the people who don't like them in the dust.

Personally, I'm one of the people who love puzzles, and love to see levels where puzzles play a prominent role.

You should stop trying to capture the whole world. This is a niche mmo and will never be anything else. The way, its now, trying to dumb down the combat system and get away from ddo rules is wrong already, but even considering dropping puzzles? There is WOW and other more simpler games for people who don't like puzzles. They will be happy there, with challenges on their level (as in none). This mmo should not be for them.

Tarragon12
05-01-2011, 06:05 PM
I don't like puzzles, but I realize some do. What I really hate are puzzles that force me to go through them to complete the quest. I was just going through "Enter the Kobold" today, and I was reminded how much puzzles really ruin large parts of the game for me. After working on it for a while, (which was not fun) I looked up the solution, and found out that sense I had already worked on it a bit, the solution was useless me! So I had to completely restart the quest and not even attempt to solve it on my own to get past it.

Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.

It seems every update, there's always one quest with a frustrating puzzle that sucks the enjoyment right out of the quest. Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack) Consequently, fewer people run the quest because they don't know the puzzle, depending on some puzzle genius to put together a group and do it for them while they pike. Maybe someday their memorize the puzzle (doesn't that sound fun) and be able to run their own groups (maybe).

So what do people think, should puzzles stay mandatory for quest completion, or should they be optionals for extra for those so inclined?

Man, you've got some guts. Admitting to being unable to understand kobold puzzle (which is braindead) takes some real courage. You've got my respect.

Mr.Delightful
05-01-2011, 06:34 PM
Man, you've got some guts. Admitting to being unable to understand kobold puzzle (which is braindead) takes some real courage. You've got my respect.

Tarragon rolls to flame: he rolls a 1(+0): Failure!
Thx for the free bump though :)

kiaoto
05-01-2011, 07:27 PM
I agree with the original author. You want puzzle, go play your puzzle games. DDO ruins adventures with the stupid puzzles. The only reason I even attempt them is cause I have to do them to get to the better quests.

cpito
05-01-2011, 08:35 PM
I have issues navigating through explorer zones. I know plenty of others who do too. Please remove explorer zones or give us the means to get to OOB without having to get lost first or find someone hold our hands.

/sarcasm off... kinda

I do in fact have issues navigating through the desert but never once has it occured to me to try to make the game change to cater to my inability. In fact, for the first time since Zawabi's was released, after years of frustration, last week I found my own way to OOB and it was a good day.

There is nothing in this game that requires you to do all the quests and there is no reward for such or even for gaining max favor. There are tools at your disposal to help you around puzzles like google and the community. As far as I'm concerned, asking for obstacles to be removed simply because you don't like them is sign of a weak mind.

Just say no to cookie cutter questing!

joneb1999
05-01-2011, 08:55 PM
Just a wild suggestion. I think there should be a skill for puzzle solving that works like getting a DM hint and each puzzle should be assigned a limit of allowed hints and a penalty for using the hints.

Possibly when a character interacts with a puzzle on each move/piece they can select this skill which will reveal part of the puzzle. However each puzzle should be given a maximum use of this skill on it so for instance on a simple line pattern tile puzzle there are only two uses of the skill on this (ie two allowed hints). Each use of the skill would reveal three correctly linked tiles but for a -10%xp penalty per hint for essentially getting DM help.

Maybe a higher intelligence on a toon can give non penalty hints. This allows for a player who is playing a highly intelligent toon (more intelligent than him/her) to get a related benefit within a role playing capacity.

SynalonEtuul
05-01-2011, 09:05 PM
I am not selfish. I am far from the only one who plays and enjoys DDO but dislikes puzzles; my suggestion is for the benefit of the DDO community as a whole, which is composed of people who may or may not frequent the forums.

Despite absolutely everyone disagreeing with me my view is still that of the majority


Combat is already prioritized over puzzles, for a reason.

We eat more carbohydrates than vegetables. Therefore, we shouldn't eat vegetables!

dredre9987
05-01-2011, 09:58 PM
/Not Signed..

Puzzles are an integral part of D&D.

Nuff said.

Nerate_Mireth
05-02-2011, 10:20 AM
My god! Enter the kobold puzzle is EASY. See the 2 lights on the floor in front of you? Hit the one on the left and you go 2 forward and 1 LEFT. Hit the one on the right and you go 2 forward and 1 RIGHT. How HARD is that?

You don't like the puzzles? In PnP most of the time you get a VERBAL description, no visual, when a "puzzle" arises. And these puzzles are NOT that difficult.

Don't want puzzles? Go play something like WoW!

amethystdragon
05-02-2011, 10:29 AM
OP, I do not like some of the puzzles either; but I would not want to see them removed from the game.

If the puzzles really bug you that much; either don't run the quests that have them, find a group that can help you with them, or find a game that does not have any type of puzzle in it.

You say puzzles detract from your fun, but other players may find the puzzles fun; so why do you want to detract from their fun?

SardaofChaos
05-02-2011, 04:14 PM
Man, you've got some guts. Admitting to being unable to understand kobold puzzle (which is braindead) takes some real courage. You've got my respect.

That was probably one of the worst examples you could have picked to flame him about his intelligence on. There is more than a bit of thought in figuring out how to light up all of the tiles, unless you're just ****ing around until the DM tells you it's over and that would take a long time, as with most of the puzzles in DDO. It's just that this particular one doesn't have a failure situation.

As for 'solving' being just two steps, no. That is bypassing it. You have not solved it unless you have gotten the treasure chest in one of the squares.

SableShadow
05-02-2011, 04:31 PM
Call it a 'Bell of Puzzling' or "Puzzle Mephit" whatever.


Cespenar: "Cespenar take master through puzzle, yes he will. Follow Cespenar, this way...no, wait, that way!"
Player: <zorch!><ding!>
Cespenar: "Cespenar has rez clickie, wait one second to find."

joneb1999
05-02-2011, 04:43 PM
When I played pnp D&D the DM would allow for hints based on an awareness type roll if a players character had the intelligence score high enough to figure out a puzzle. Its fair enough as just about every other action in the game is mostly based on difficulty roles of some kind. Theres no reason I can see why this cant be implemented into DDO.

THOTHdha
05-02-2011, 05:32 PM
Tomb of the Tormented: also a valid complaint, but only because of the timing(and time necessary) involved and not so much because of the difficulty of the puzzle.


I was ready to join in the ranting about 'the dumbing down of DDO' until you reminded me of this one. >.< Oh man, I hate those rats.....

But that said, it is unfortunate that the OP's playing experience was ruined in this way. It really might be a good idea to check over the wiki or a similar sight to make sure that you know about and are able to get past any puzzles before you get to them. But it seems like most people enjoy the non-hack'n'slash that these puzzles provide.

SardaofChaos
05-02-2011, 06:08 PM
When I played pnp D&D the DM would allow for hints based on an awareness type roll if a players character had the intelligence score high enough to figure out a puzzle. Its fair enough as just about every other action in the game is mostly based on difficulty roles of some kind. Theres no reason I can see why this cant be implemented into DDO.

I would like this, as long as it was voiced. If it was just like spotting a secret door or sensing a trap then it would be lame.

zwiebelring
05-02-2011, 06:46 PM
@OP
Where do you draw the line other people want less fighting and use more social skills to complete the quest, maybe like in Prison of the planes in the Lamania cell. I for my part don't like puzzles as well but how about implementing a riddle/puzzle level (like in Silent Hill 2)?

I am actually attracted to the Crystal Cove's level adjustment so why not do the same for puzzles/traps. The actual difficulties just increase stats + immunities of the monsters and flat trap dcs + dmg. it seems, how about creating an option to increase trap numbers if not possible to generate random traps and/or in-/decreaese puzzle difficulty?

Puzzles are a difficult thing by itself. A puzzle ignores the d20 completely and challenges the player, not his toon. This is actually a nice alternative since DDO is mostly a flat hage + charge + dps the s*** out of the mob.

The perfect game will never be created but a tool to choose the actual difficulty of puzzles was a very nice thing to let everybody play his skills to a maximum challenge if so desired.

And honestly, Enter The Kobold has the most annoying puzzle ever. The reference to the chessboard doesn't help me as well. A guide for the correct application is still missing in my google results. Whatever I get it done. Run it twice on casual and normal and then be done with it forever.

Otherwise I never had any problem with tile puzzles except in this particular quest the teleport-maze.

THOTHdha
05-02-2011, 07:29 PM
I have a serious question for you. Would you purchase a DDO store item that auto-solved your puzzle for you?


Call it a 'Bell of Puzzling' or "Puzzle Mephit" whatever.


Seems like that would be an opportunity for Turbine to make some money.


Just a wild suggestion. I think there should be a skill for puzzle solving that works like getting a DM hint and each puzzle should be assigned a limit of allowed hints and a penalty for using the hints.

Possibly when a character interacts with a puzzle on each move/piece they can select this skill which will reveal part of the puzzle. However each puzzle should be given a maximum use of this skill on it so for instance on a simple line pattern tile puzzle there are only two uses of the skill on this (ie two allowed hints). Each use of the skill would reveal three correctly linked tiles but for a -10%xp penalty per hint for essentially getting DM help.

Maybe a higher intelligence on a toon can give non penalty hints. This allows for a player who is playing a highly intelligent toon (more intelligent than him/her) to get a related benefit within a role playing capacity.

Both of these seem like viable ways to handle the situation for people interested in bypassing puzzles.

The 'puzzle mephit' or similar idea could bring revenue to the DDO store. It seems like people have already proven willing to buy convenience items such as mummy and beholder items.

I am not sure why the 'reasoning' skill would need to have an XP penalty to it. You are spending valuable skill points on it. I would much rather see it as timed. You work at the puzzle for a minute or two, then the GM gives a hint. The time it takes depends on skill level. It seems like this would absolutely need to be one of the skill that you have to invest skill points in before you receive any effect, like Tumble or UMD. There are many people who do not want that kind of spoiler.

I would really love to see something like this added, as it would free the level designers to come up with challenging puzzles. Not many of them in DDO are really that hard, and with something like this we could really see interesting optional puzzles!

jillie
05-02-2011, 08:14 PM
I admit upfront that I haven't read the entire thread, but i'm compelled to respond to the OP.

/not signed. no. no. no.

another easy button is wanted. Devs, please ignore this request!

kiaoto
05-02-2011, 10:44 PM
Puzzles should be optional part of D&D. If your puzzle fanatic, have at it. Do all the optional puzzle you want. Stop making them requirements to finish quest. /signed

CrosisBlackwing
05-02-2011, 11:06 PM
Finishing a quest should be an optional part of D&D. If you are a Quest Finishing fanatic, have at it. Do all the optional Quest FInishing you want. Stop making them requirements to finish the quest. /notsigned

countfitz
05-02-2011, 11:41 PM
You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

Seriously? Look at the responses. I've never seen any thread on these boards more unanimous. Every post between your first and this agree they're fun and interesting and should stay.

ceiswyn
05-03-2011, 02:07 AM
@OP
Where do you draw the line other people want less fighting and use more social skills to complete the quest, maybe like in Prison of the planes in the Lamania cell. I for my part don't like puzzles as well but how about implementing a riddle/puzzle level (like in Silent Hill 2)?

Or maybe a quest or two that play out differently depending what options you select in a dialogue. There aren't many options to actually play your alignment at the moment, after all.

Cold_Stele
05-03-2011, 05:41 AM
So the guys who love puzzles *really* love doing the exact same one over and over and over again?

10 runs through Kobold on a TR and you're still loving every second of it?

Really? Really?

Personally I find it tedious...

Satinavian
05-03-2011, 06:16 AM
In this case I was more referring to when doing it for the very first time, if you don't have a clue where the wrong tiles are then you have to be kinda lucky to not kill him. I know you're a dev and all, but I am speaking from experience here. I killed him the first three times :P Wrong choice of words on my part, not really impossible but unlikely. Cleric would make it much easier since you can just heal him back up.

Well, i did it the first time solo without any previous knowledge on a cleric. It is possible. Yes, i healed him, but i think, it wasn't really neccessary.

Not sure, if it could plausibly be done on hard or elite this way. Oh, and if i had not been solo, most groups would not have invested this amount of time. But it was fun. More puzzles like this one.

zwiebelring
05-03-2011, 06:32 AM
Or maybe a quest or two that play out differently depending what options you select in a dialogue. There aren't many options to actually play your alignment at the moment, after all.
That seems a good idea, BUT I even think that is too much work for the devs and looking on all buigs and problems in DDO...

let them work on these first.

ceiswyn
05-03-2011, 07:16 AM
So the guys who love puzzles *really* love doing the exact same one over and over and over again?

Nope. I imagine we all prefer the ones that change between runs. The mastermind-type puzzle in Reaver, the 3D puzzle in that IQ quest, the 'lights out' puzzles in Shroud; the method stays the same, but the puzzle is always different.

Of course, that's exactly the kind of puzzle the OP doesn't want, because it requires the solver to think, rather than opening a walkthrough and following the instructions.


10 runs through Kobold on a TR and you're still loving every second of it?

Well, after 60 runs of Shroud I'm still loving the puzzles in there. And yes, yes I am still rather fond of the puzzle in Kobold.


Personally I find it tedious...

Personally, I don't.

What is it with people who can't understand that everybody does not think exactly the same way they do?

You know, there's a psychological theory that children develop an idea of other people as having different likes, motivations and knowledges to themselves at about age six. Sadly, a quick read of any messageboard blows that one right out of the water...

Sarisa
05-03-2011, 08:17 AM
Going to the most hated quest list...



Number of Replies Tracked:
201

Individual Quests:
[43] Tomb of the Tormented
[32] Pit
[29] Hold for Reinforcements
[28] Coalescence Chamber
[25] Proof is in the Poison
[16] Stealthy Repossession
[15] Faithful Departed
[15] Gladewatch Outpost
[15] Let Sleeping Dust Lie
[13] Kobold Assault


The top two are "puzzle and maze based quests". #4 is also a "mazey" quest. Most actually tend to be more hated due to having party unfriendly mechanics or easy to trigger failure mechanisms. Looking further down the list, there are more puzzle based quests listed by repliers as "hated".

Compare to the top 10 most loved:


Number of Replies Tracked:
108

Individual Quests:
[22] Rainbow in the Dark
[20] Pit
[18] Delirium
[12] Crucible
[11] Partycrashers
[ 9] Gianthold Tor
[ 9] Shroud
[ 9] Stormcleave Outpost
[ 9] Tear of Dhakaan
[ 9] Undermine


Many have puzzle elements, but aside from Crucible, are not dominated by the puzzles. Rainbow's is very simple, Pit's the most polarizing quest in the game, and Delirium makes the puzzle mechanisms fun due to the "You're Insane!" mechanic in the quest. Partycrashers has some puzzle optionals, along with a lot of non-linearity that is completely optional. You CAN muscle through the quest if you wish, it's just more difficult.

Crucible is the most puzzle/maze dependent quest on the top 10 list. Unfortunately, this is one I feel isn't done as well as most of the others, due to the fact that it doesn't involve everyone. If you're a divine caster, you WILL feel like a near useless healbot here, aside from maybe Destruct'ing a few casters on top of the maze while you sit on a wheel. Two of the four major puzzles are heavily tilted toward the evasive/high reflex save folks. It's also a quest that you MUST do in order to flag for Tor, so it can't be avoided if you don't want to deal with the puzzles. I would not suggest changing the quest though, since the puzzles are what defines the quest. I just want future areas to not have the same required area.

The most popular puzzle elements seem to be ones where there is either an alternative way of proceeding, such as beating down Sanyasi (Monastery of the Scorpion) rather than solving the puzzle (difficult but doable, you just lose out on a chest). Or, the puzzle element is an optional for extra experience/loot, such as the new one in In the Flesh, where if what someone earlier in the thread said was true, even gives you a hint if you take too long.

Regarding specific puzzles, here's my opinion mixed with the replies from the love and hate threads:

Shroud: Part 3 is like an intermission. A lot of people hate it, but with Knock/rogue levels, people can get in and solve for you. You can also break crystals for fast completion at the expense of loot. It's not as big of a time drain as part 1, but it does tend to drag out a raid that will get run a massive number of times. Mixed opinions on this.

Monestary: If you don't want to do it, you can just beat down one of the hardest hitting non-epic mobs around. You lose out on a chest, but it's a nice challenge for a well built group. Most opinions are positive on this one, especially now that there are no unsolvable puzzles INITIALLY made.

Enter the Kobold: It's a fairly long intermission, right before a particularly nasty end fight. It's not terribly popular, and I feel part of it is due to the longish teleport animation (since all your buffs then reapply), the lag resulting from the teleport, and the fact that you then have to jump again since it'll toggle the button you land on. While it's a neat logic puzzle, it just feels a tad out of place in that particular quest. I don't remember exactly, but I think it also changes the way you are facing each time you take a teleporter, so that can disorient you and make it more difficult for a visual minded individual to navigate.

Crucible: Heavily skewed toward the evasive or high reflex save folks, who also tend to have low enough wisdom to do the Instinct test as well. Solving the maze portion, even when everyone knows it, can take a while with the very annoying caster mobs summoning exponential numbers of mephits. Many people are going to feel useless while only one or two people get to do all the "fun", and the boss fight is very anti-climatic. Well loved, but also commonly hated.

Maze of Madness: This is one done right. It's totally optional, but you are rewarded with a great bit of experience and very valuable Argonesson favour. It also involves everyone, unlike the Crucible.

Twilight Forge: Loved by some, hated by many. The whole thing, besides Purple, the entrance area, and the final gauntlet, is nothing but a series of puzzles. It tries to engage everyone, but due to the design of the raid itself, Green is usually done through DDoor's shortmanned instead. Red's puzzle is a little better, as it's quick and all three people doing it get to participate. It's rather old content, so that excuses it a little.

Vault of Night: Also a series of interconnected puzzles, but less "touchy" than the ones in the Twilight Forge. It's also one that doesn't engage the whole party, sometimes to the extent where one or two people do the entire quest aside from pulling levers in north and switches in south.

Prove Your Worth: Totally optional quest, so it's perfectly fine being a gauntlet of puzzles and tricks. You do not need to do this quest in order to get experience, due to having so many others the same level.

Ghost of a Chance: A truly diabolical puzzle at the end, but you have an alternative way to complete. The quest rewards you with more optional experience than the entire quest is worth.

Inferno of the Damned: Not a puzzle, but a pair of interconnected mazes. Part of the problem is that for many people, it's hard to visualize how the two parts intertwine. It truly isn't too difficult of a maze, it just requires someone to follow a cheatsheet or have someone with good spatial skills. Commonly hated, and it's one that I hated until I learned how it worked. Then it just "clicked" and made sense.

Reaver's Fate: Without playing Mastermind at the end, there would be practically no substance to this at all. There are enough solvers out there using Donald Knuth's 5-step algorithm to make it fast and easy to complete.

Dream Conspiracy: Totally optional, and worth a nice bit of experience and extra loot (and extra blue loops). Done right, since you CAN just go run it again and skip the puzzle totally.

Against the Demon Queen: The order of the wings is a series of presets, rather than truly random. Thus, we can use a cheat-sheet listing them to rapidly finish. This should be kept due to having to run this quest every single time we want to run the raid.

Accursed Ascension: All the puzzles aren't too difficult to do legitimately, it's just usually faster and easier to have a capstone Cleric or dark monk do Ice; then have Goggles be done the "typical" way. Goggles legitimate is very dependent on latency to the server, as even being a little off-time can make it fail. Server, Client, and Internet latency should not be a failure condition in a raid. I like the idea behind the raid, it's just the implementation of it tends to cause it to be more annoying than fun.

In The Flesh: Not really a puzzle, but a puzzle like end fight. It's nice because it engages everyone. It can take time, but it doesn't feel as obnoxious as you're constantly doing SOMETHING the whole time. Whether it's clearing trash, or guiding orbs, or watching for pods before he fires off Mind Thrust. In addition, as I mentioned above, the optional puzzle elements are nice because they are optionals. You don't HAVE to do them, but if you do, they're extra loot and experience. PS. The Air jets over the chaos orbs on elite were a nasty surprise.

My opinion in summary is that I like the puzzles, and only dislike a few (Crucible, Enter the Kobold - but not due to the puzzle itself, due to the way teleport works). I feel they're best done when it's either the entire goal of an optional quest, if it's an optional that gives a worthwhile experience or loot bonus, or if there is an alternative way to proceed for those who don't wish to do the puzzles.

I feel that puzzles should always be part of the game, D&D wouldn't be the same otherwise. Continue making neat and interesting puzzles, both simple and diabolically evil.

Cold_Stele
05-03-2011, 10:13 AM
@ Sarisa - excellent post +1


What is it with people who can't understand that everybody does not think exactly the same way they do?

You know, there's a psychological theory that children develop an idea of other people as having different likes, motivations and knowledges to themselves at about age six. Sadly, a quick read of any messageboard blows that one right out of the water...

OP is stating a simple opinion and getting some not too polite replies. I don't think he's the one with issues...

The fact of the matter is that we all know people have different motivations for playing MMO's - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test. You see puzzles as being a fun part of the game - many will agee, many will disagree, probably a lot more won't even care. Personally I see them as a needless time sink thwarting my desire to cap as many toons as possible in the already limited time I have to play.

I'm not adverse to pulling out a solver, but I'll gladly let anyone else do it who wants to. My particular hate is Kobold, as it just ruins the pace of the quest and the climax. To be honest, if all you have to do when you come across a puzzle is go to DDO wiki, I just don't see the point...

Uska
05-03-2011, 10:38 AM
My god! Enter the kobold puzzle is EASY. See the 2 lights on the floor in front of you? Hit the one on the left and you go 2 forward and 1 LEFT. Hit the one on the right and you go 2 forward and 1 RIGHT. How HARD is that?

You don't like the puzzles? In PnP most of the time you get a VERBAL description, no visual, when a "puzzle" arises. And these puzzles are NOT that difficult.

Don't want puzzles? Go play something like WoW!

after all this time I didnt know that thank you +1

ceiswyn
05-03-2011, 01:36 PM
Going to the most hated quest list...

The top two are "puzzle and maze based quests". #4 is also a "mazey" quest.

I think that lumps together a lot of very distinct things, though. For example, there are puzzles (limited bits of quest that require thought and problem-solving to get past, such as 'lights out' in the Shroud or the maze in Enter the Kobold), platform games (such as jumping on pipes in the Pit, or running up spirals in Coal), and sheer confusing/difficult quest layout (the maps in Coal and the Pit being entirely useless for working out where you are and how to get where you need to go). And then of course there's things like Titan and the boss fight of In The Flesh, which are different again being 'puzzles' of strategy and teamwork.

I'd be interested in a similar analysis that divided the quests along those lines, but I appreciate the time and work that went into your last response!

ceiswyn
05-03-2011, 01:38 PM
The fact of the matter is that we all know people have different motivations for playing MMO's - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test.

That would, yes, be exactly my point. And that's why I'd rather we keep the variety we have - that caters to all those different motivations and playstyles - rather than throwing the balance out of whack.

~SyZoRe
05-03-2011, 01:53 PM
So the guys who love puzzles *really* love doing the exact same one over and over and over again?

10 runs through Kobold on a TR and you're still loving every second of it?

Really? Really?

Personally I find it tedious...

yes. REALY

Kaeldur
05-03-2011, 02:06 PM
Definitely /notsigned

Puzzles are a vital part of the quests in which they are present. If you can't handle them then learn them. In Enter the Kobold, for example, you move as a knight in chess through the "tiles" of the puzzle. Once I figured that out that puzzle became much easier.

Templarion
05-03-2011, 03:45 PM
Puzzles are only challenging thing in this game.

/not signed

We need more puzzles.

elixer1
05-03-2011, 03:58 PM
/Not Signed

Puzzles are a fine addition, I don't think there should be one in every quest, and they should be careful about how difficult a puzzle is if it's mandatory.

Luckily you never have to do it alone, you can bring 5 or 11 other people with you, depending on the puzzle/quest.

joneb1999
05-03-2011, 09:20 PM
What is it with people who can't understand that everybody does not think exactly the same way they do?

You know, there's a psychological theory that children develop an idea of other people as having different likes, motivations and knowledges to themselves at about age six. Sadly, a quick read of any messageboard blows that one right out of the water...

Ahem the fact we all have different likes, dislikes, preconceptions, abilities etc is the reason why there should be some sort of option on puzzles even if it is a skill that gives hints on a successful difficulty role such as revealing parts of the puzzle but not solving it completely.

The OP isnt asking for puzzles to be removed by the way and puzzles are interesting but I find them difficult and time consuming because i struggle. I find some difficult even having done quests many times.

countfitz
05-03-2011, 09:47 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that puzzles won't ever be part of the critical path! It's simply a matter of catering to a larger audience. We want to cater to the people who love puzzles, and we don't want to leave the people who don't like them in the dust.

Personally, I'm one of the people who love puzzles, and love to see levels where puzzles play a prominent role.

OMG

1. In my year on the forums, never have I seen a developer post (though, in his five years, obviously he's posted over 100 times)

2. Never thought a developer would TAKE A SIDE on a silly, non issue like an OP saying he seriously wishes puzzles weren't a part of Dungeons and Dragons (by the way, seriously? It's like the only thing left in DDO that is even reminicent of PnP anymore!) especially when greensteel is broken at the moment!

3. I love that even he sides with the puzzlers! OP, I'm so sorry, but this is hilarious.

P.S. developer man, I love you, you've given me hope in developers!
P.P.S. Green Steel is broken right now, while I love that you are joining in this fight to save the puzzles, I think everyone else on the forums has it covered.

ssgcmwatson
05-04-2011, 12:27 AM
Wow, three dev posts in one thread! Watch out folks, the end really is coming soon! ;)

B.L.U.F. - /not signed

When I first started playing DDO, I was massively happy to see the puzzles on Korthos Island, as it indicated to me that DDO would not just be another hack-n-slash. I would love more puzzles, especially more that had some kind of randomization to them.

I love the idea of having some puzzles that can be assisted by Wis/Int skill checks, just like some encounters in quests that involve bluff/diplo etc.

One thing that might help the OP - a warning at the quest entrance if a solving a puzzle is required to finish a quest. I remember back before the "Party-based challenge" warning existed; I had solo'd my way through a bunch of nastiness just to get to a point where I needed another player to complete. Very frustrating.

ceiswyn
05-04-2011, 02:44 AM
Ahem the fact we all have different likes, dislikes, preconceptions, abilities etc is the reason why there should be some sort of option on puzzles

The point I keep making here, however, is that that's true of everything in DDO. For example, I get lost easily (in-game, anyway; out-of-game I have an amazing sense of direction, but that's a whole 'nother topic) so maybe all mazes, or complicated maps, should be optional, or come with signposts?

Or person X finds jumping hard, so all jumping should be optional? Or person Y hates fighting large mobs, so all large mobs should be optional?

Once you start down that road, you end up with a straight line from entrance to chest, with all the bits that anyone doesn't like or finds difficult 'optional'.

As it is, quests where the elements people lump together as 'puzzles' - actual puzzles, jumps, difficult quest maps, end-bosses that require thinking to fight - are mandatory are in the minority anyway. We all have to put up with a few quests or quest elements that we don't like. And, because we know that we all have different likes, dislikes, preconceptions and abilities, because we know that what I hate others love and vice versa, we should just be willing to shrug and move on.

Arakasia
05-04-2011, 02:57 AM
You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

Yeah, i agree that they are frustrating sometimes but make the victory at the end SO much the sweeter having done it... and even more so if I've done them without the solver's that are out there...

I think your missing the point of it, its to make it challenging and interesting, and honestly do you think that the boss mobs out there would not use some piece of a defence system there if it makes it somewhat harder for various adventurer's out there to steal what they either won,stole or embezzled....

Would you???

cpito
05-04-2011, 03:04 AM
The point I keep making here, however, is that that's true of everything in DDO....

Well said. I would like to add to this that DDO is, at heart, a social game. Quests are generally designed around co-operative play and including puzzles, mario jumping and
navigating are all ways to encourage that behaviour.

zwiebelring
05-04-2011, 04:59 AM
Puzzles should be optional but they should be there. Raids should be no puzzlings imho because you play with 12 people and cannot solo these quests. (I really hate Reaver Raid for that. I even hate Mastermind. I want to have puzzles I don't have to use a solver for just because otherwise the time runs out and you will fail. And no, I don't want to learn another stupid boardgame or else first to be bale to solve a puzzle, but removing the timer coudl be an option)

Every other content made constant progress with puzzle locations. I personally liked to see more puzzles like in adq. No mathmatical stuff you can google or have to google. Riddles you figure out while being in the quest not using a solver or else but most important without timer.

But in the end it is a matter of work the devs can do with limitted budgets.

p.s.:
Mario shall die in hell and with him the whole genre he left us!

SynalonEtuul
05-04-2011, 05:08 AM
I love puzzles and would like to see more of them.

CalydorEstalon
05-04-2011, 05:15 AM
All I really see when reading the OP here is, "Whaaaa, I hate using my brain, it hurts! I just wanna solve everything like the neanderthals did it, by hitting it until it stops moving! Don't make me use my brain, I hate it hate it hate it!"

joneb1999
05-04-2011, 04:16 PM
The point I keep making here, however, is that that's true of everything in DDO. For example, I get lost easily (in-game, anyway; out-of-game I have an amazing sense of direction, but that's a whole 'nother topic) so maybe all mazes, or complicated maps, should be optional, or come with signposts?

Or person X finds jumping hard, so all jumping should be optional? Or person Y hates fighting large mobs, so all large mobs should be optional?

Once you start down that road, you end up with a straight line from entrance to chest, with all the bits that anyone doesn't like or finds difficult 'optional'.

As it is, quests where the elements people lump together as 'puzzles' - actual puzzles, jumps, difficult quest maps, end-bosses that require thinking to fight - are mandatory are in the minority anyway. We all have to put up with a few quests or quest elements that we don't like. And, because we know that we all have different likes, dislikes, preconceptions and abilities, because we know that what I hate others love and vice versa, we should just be willing to shrug and move on.

Im not saying puzzles should all be optional in regards to avoiding them but there should be an option that allows for some assistance based on your toons abilities where its possible.

A decent jump skill makes jumping so much more easy and so in the same way perhaps to help you find your way there should be a direction sense skill that reveals a vague line to take if you can make the difficulty roll. I hate that maze in the Crucible but I dont know how you could actually assist that.

Infact to take all this further having skills such as for puzzle solving, direction sense etc may mean puzzles, complicated maps and other challenges could happen more often in quests and also there would be more of a reason to invest in skill points to help you navigate these obstacles and intelligence may not be a dump stat so often.

ceiswyn
05-04-2011, 04:34 PM
A decent jump skill makes jumping so much more easy and so in the same way perhaps to help you find your way there should be a direction sense skill that reveals a vague line to take if you can make the difficulty roll. I hate that maze in the Crucible but I dont know how you could actually assist that.

Infact to take all this further having skills such as for puzzle solving, direction sense etc may mean puzzles, complicated maps and other challenges could happen more often in quests and also there would be more of a reason to invest in skill points to help you navigate these obstacles and intelligence may not be a dump stat so often.

It may be a pipe dream, but I'll /sign that :)

Kushiel
05-04-2011, 04:35 PM
In general I dislike puzzles. Some more than others. Methods to avoid them altogether would (most frequently) be a boon for how, when, and why I play.

I have scrawled notes to permit me to get through some of them (PIT, CO6, Tangleroot). I've gotten reasonably proficient at some of the other static ones (Prove Your Worth, Haunted Library, VoN4) so that I can just do them, with a minimal of annoyance and stumbling.

Longer halls around with more foes, twisted passages that mean taking some damage one would not have to if a puzzle had been successfully completed - either would be a path I'd take over running back and forth spinning levers, twiddling floor tiles, or toggling unmarked switches (that may or may not be trapped anyhow). I especially hate standing around in varying levels of frustration watching buffs tick away... moreso even when I'm low on SP.

Options that give players choices in how they would like to progress through a quest are good things, I believe. If it brings them enjoyment from being in the world, playing the game... and *wanting* to come back because they had fun, I think it is a positive; and maybe on some given days they'll take the alternate paths they avoided and uncover different/new enjoyments with the world.