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Mojofizznut
04-25-2011, 07:08 PM
I am thinking about a high Int bard, and grabbing Insightful Reflexes. He will have 2 lvls Rogue for evasion.

However, I'm unclear how dex and AC still plays a role in melee combat.

It sounds like Evasion simply reduces the amount of damage if a reflex save is made from 50% to no damage. But when do reflex saves happen? In every melee attack as a part of defense calculation?

What is AC for then? If AC is used to determine if a 'hit' occurs, I don't understand how reflex save works then and how Insightful Reflexes really makes that much of a difference.

The bottom line is, if I have high Int and low dex, and grab Insightful Reflexes, is this a rediculous idea on a melee bard? I'm thinking the skill was made primarily for caster types that maybe only occaisionally get hit?

Gkar
04-25-2011, 07:13 PM
Reflexes are for reducing damage from spells and traps. AC is to stop weapons from hitting you. DR is to reduce damage from weapons that hit you.

And I can't see the value of a high int bard, you'd have to explain your concept a bit more to answer the question if its a good idea or not.

In general, Insightful reflexes is most useful on a Wizard who will have extremely high Int and with a couple rogue or monk levels can really benefit from the evasion.

Ytteri
04-25-2011, 07:14 PM
For the most part, saves are not used in melee combat, they're your primary defense against enemy spells. So if a giant smashes your face in with a sword, reflex save and evasion won't help at all. However, if an enemy throws a fireball at you, you get to attempt a reflex save. If you make your reflex save without evasion, you take half damage, with evasion you take none.

fluffybunnywilson
04-25-2011, 07:16 PM
Reflex saves happen primarily when you are about to be hit by a trap or when you are about to be zapped by a direct damage spell.

Not every spell offers a save and not every spell that offers a save has a reflex save, but MOST direct damage spells do allow for a reflex save to take half damage.

Save or Die spells tend to be Fortitude saves.
Save or Be Immobilized/enthralled/held/etc spells tend to be Will saves.
Save or take full damage spells tend to be Reflex saves.

Save or Die spells can usually be avoided with a Deathblock item or the Deathward spell.
Save vs. Hold Person/Charm/etc. can usually be avoided with either Protection from Evil (charms and commands) or Freedom of Movement (Hold Person/Monster).

Most characters that are hit by a fireball (or similar) will either take full damage if they fail their Reflex save or they will take half damage if they make their Reflex save.
Characters with Evasion will take full damage on a failed Reflex save or they will take no damage at all if they make their Reflex save.
Characters with Improved Evasion will take half damage on a failed Reflex save or they will take no damage at all if they make their Reflex save.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex


Regular Melee attacks will not require you to make a saving throw of any kind, but some special attacks (Trip, Stunning Blow and a few others) will.

mutantbee
04-25-2011, 07:23 PM
You have some misconceptions about game mechanics.

Your reflex save is invoked when you are subjected to a spell that has reflex as it's target. i.e. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc. Also when you pass through MOST traps. If you have make your save, you take half damage. With evasion, if you make your save, you take no damage. With a failed save in either case, you take full damage. Improved evasion is available to higher level rogues and Monks only. Imp. evasion allows half damage on a failed save.

However, unless you can manage a pretty high relex save, evasion will not do you much good. You are correct that Insightfull reflex is specifically targeted at wizards, who boost their Int score to the max. You will not be able (nor want) to do so on a bard. It is doubtful it will help you. Also, bards are usually feat starved, and there are better feats to take.

Your AC and reflex saves have no relationship with each other, per se. Reflex has no effect on basic melee combat. Your AC determines if you get hit. If you are going low dex, you are probably going to have a low AC as well. Light armor alone will not save you. The best melee damage avoidance for a bard is usually achieved by a combination of displacement, wand casting stoneskin, and smart play (not getting too much aggro).

I could go on for hours about AC, but the short version is that it is very tough to get a meaningful AC out of a Bard past level 10 or so, and you might gimp yourself trying. It it also rarely necessary if you play like a bard.

Check out the DDO wiki for more game mechanic explanations.

Also, check the boards for build advice. There are many great threads on Bard builds, and all the rest too.

I hope I have helped. Good luck.

EDIT: sorry for redundancy, when I was typing this, you had no replies yet.

Mojofizznut
04-25-2011, 07:25 PM
[QUOTE=Gkar;3748151]And I can't see the value of a high int bard, you'd have to explain your concept a bit more to answer the question if its a good idea or not.
QUOTE]

Thanks all -
The high int was for skills - wanted a trap capable melee bard -

sigtrent
04-25-2011, 07:28 PM
I'd suggest instead of high int and insightful reflexes, create a half elf and take the paladin Diletante line which will give you a bit of a bonus on all your saves. Then simply keep a reasonable dex.

Ytteri
04-25-2011, 07:29 PM
Thanks all -
The high int was for skills - wanted a trap capable melee bard -



You won't need super-high int for that. Insightful Reflexes is only really good for characters that have Int 10 (or more) points higher than dex (and that's almost exclusively wizards).

Kinerd
04-26-2011, 06:01 PM
DR is to reduce damage from weapons that hit you.DR also works against traps that do physical damage (spinners, slashers, spikes). I don't remember for sure, but I don't think it works against spells that do physical damage (Blade Barrier, Cometfall, etc.).

tihocan
04-27-2011, 08:42 AM
It's not necessarily a bad idea, but bards typically get enough skill points so that you don't need such a high Int to keep up trap skills with a couple of rogue levels. Depends on your plans though.