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Thar
04-25-2011, 04:50 PM
We've seen Barbs, casters, s/b even get some updates to be more balanced in game.

It's time that the dex based twf finesse users are spoken for!

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?

I suggest that finesse weapons get a weapon speed bonus based upon dex bonus or fixed by type. IE rapier 4%, short sword 5%, dagger 9%... Or finesse gives chance to doublestrike since you are faster at % bonuse = to the dex modifier?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed.

come on dev's show us some love too.

protokon
04-25-2011, 04:54 PM
That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe.

huh?

Shade
04-25-2011, 04:56 PM
Finesse != dps

Want dps?
Reincarnate to strength build.

There is no other solution.

Lithic
04-25-2011, 04:57 PM
I'd be a pretty easy fix.

Improved Weapon Finesse: Light weapons use your dex bonus instead of strength bonus for damage.

2 feats to let you dump Str? Seems pretty fair considering you would still be at the mercy of carrying capacity, easily reduced to 0 str by ray of enfeebling/shadows, lose out on powerattack (probably), and you can't pump dex as high as strength anyway. If another feat is too costly, maybe a 4AP enhancement unlocked by weapon finesse.

AtomicMew
04-25-2011, 05:02 PM
Another possible solution would be to just remove Weapon Finesse from the game; finessable weapons would simply use whichever mod was higher automatically.

I think the extra feat requirement is one of the biggest problems with dex builds, especially for feat starved classes like rogues. If it weren't for that, I think it would be a decent-ish trade off: ~2-3 AC/reflex saves for 2-3 damage/some to hit.

TreknaQudane
04-25-2011, 05:02 PM
All said a Finesse character should only be down 5 points of damage on average from a STR character. While it does add up, it's not that much to warrant a redesign of the entire idea. If you made a finesse character without respecting your STR score still you deserve a nerf.

Your Trade off is -5 Damage for +5 AC (usually) and +5 Reflex.

Big freaking whoop.

Scraap
04-25-2011, 05:05 PM
Eh, ya don't go dex-to-the-point-of-needing-finesse for melee assault. You do it as

a- Backup on a ranged toon
or
b- Pure survivability (discounting that a dead mob deals no damage)

That being said, finesse adding dex mod to the DC of weapon effects would serve to reinforce the control nature of the style, I should think. (Granted, now we've got even fewer DC based weapons...)

SableShadow
04-25-2011, 05:06 PM
huh?

Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/2cHSZVb9y2LaFsib974.gif). Phear him!

shortdevils
04-25-2011, 05:15 PM
finese builds shouldnt be dps builds.

what needs fixing is the Ac or some other, more worthwhile benefit should be gotten of being a finese..

Chai
04-25-2011, 05:19 PM
I still say D&D should have used dex as to-hit mod in all cases and str as damage mod in all cases. Other games do this with decent levels of success.

Doesnt matter what the size and weight of a weapon is, lack of coordination = poor martial arts skill, where lack of strength can be made up for with a well smithed weapon and good footwork.

A real life high end Katana for instance can cut through a roll of carpeting diagonally with little effort involved, other than the correct technique being applied when the attack happens.

A quarterstaff which is basically a chinese white oak tree trunk with the bark taken off, and then treated, can be wielded with good enough technique to generate more pressure by middle school kids in practice, who certainly dont even have their full strength as of yet, than some of the packer football players who were training in the same class.

As far as the game is concerned, having one stat that does both means min maxing for that stat, and using metagaming to cover up any weakness, if any, caused by the min factor in min maxing. It doesnt surprise me that we build for strength and hit just enough dex to meet any requirements for the build and thats it. Whe you tie so much power to one stat, it doesnt surprise me at all that we min max for it.

Gkar
04-25-2011, 05:27 PM
I'd be a pretty easy fix.

Improved Weapon Finesse: Light weapons use your dex bonus instead of strength bonus for damage.

2 feats to let you dump Str? Seems pretty fair considering you would still be at the mercy of carrying capacity, easily reduced to 0 str by ray of enfeebling/shadows, lose out on powerattack (probably), and you can't pump dex as high as strength anyway. If another feat is too costly, maybe a 4AP enhancement unlocked by weapon finesse.

Interesting approach. Another would be to give a speed boost to finesse builds based on their dex. It might be more "on flavor".

shortdevils
04-25-2011, 05:29 PM
I still say D&D should have used dex as to-hit mod in all cases and str as damage mod in all cases. Other games do this with decent levels of success.

Doesnt matter what the size and weight of a weapon is, lack of coordination = poor martial arts skill, where lack of strength can be made up for with a well smithed weapon and good footwork.

A real life high end Katana for instance can cut through a roll of carpeting diagonally with little effort involved, other than the correct technique being applied when the attack happens.

A quarterstaff which is basically a chinese white oak tree trunk with the bark taken off, and then treated, can be wielded with good enough technique to generate more pressure by middle school kids in practice, who certainly dont even have their full strength as of yet, than some of the packer football players who were training in the same class.

As far as the game is concerned, having one stat that does both means min maxing for that stat, and using metagaming to cover up any weakness, if any, caused by the min factor in min maxing. It doesnt surprise me that we build for strength and hit just enough dex to meet any requirements for the build and thats it. Whe you tie so much power to one stat, it doesnt surprise me at all that we min max for it.

this is acutally a great idea but the "this isnt dnd anymore" guys will wail on the devs so...thats down the drain.

Kathul
04-25-2011, 05:37 PM
Dexterity based builds are done for obvious reasons. Will I list them, NO, cause if you don't know then it's your fault.

Strength based builds are just as obvious.

And THAT is the balance, if you want one thing, you can't have the other. Or you find a nice in between of both.

Trippy
04-25-2011, 05:39 PM
That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe.
and

Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/2cHSZVb9y2LaFsib974.gif). Phear him!

Er, Belkar (probably, stats are unpublished last I checked) is not a Finesse build, his str is as high, or higher then his dex. Why would a high dex build splash Barbarian for Rage or take the Sunder feat?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219

SableShadow
04-25-2011, 05:48 PM
Why would a high dex build splash Barbarian for Rage or take the Sunder feat?

One might also ask why he's using daggers.... :D

Also, note I was simply responding to "Huh?" from another poster...I don't really have it in me to debate Belkar's stats, neither 2nd Ed nor 3rd. ;)

Chai
04-25-2011, 05:58 PM
this is acutally a great idea but the "this isnt dnd anymore" guys will wail on the devs so...thats down the drain.

And they did, even as far back as old school gen cons and the like when I tried to bring this up to some of the game designers and book authors in the late 80s early 90s etc. All of the "system mastery" folks (min maxers) were all up in a tizzy about it. I even did both types of staff forms for some of them - the THF style where you grab the weapon at one end and the TWF style (flowering) where both ends are equidistant from the middle which is being propelled by the continuous turning of the waist, which when done right kind of works like a fulcrum-lever-gear set up.

Didnt matter in the end - they still put all that power on one stat, so it doesnt suprise me that we can make 8 dex 80 str toons, and they succeed, heh.

Kantare
04-25-2011, 06:11 PM
I don't think that the problem is necessary with finesse dex builds or strength builds, I think the problem is with the actual weapon selection. As it stands there is absolutely no reason to dual wield anything other than khopeshes, or dwarven axes (if you are a dwarf). Everything else is pathetic in comparison. As a fix I really like the idea that the OP had, make finesseable weapons faster.

So let's make it like this. Take Finesse as a feat at lvl 1. Take Combat Expertise as a feat at lvl 3. When hit lvl 4 a new enhancment pops up and for a measly 2 AP you can start upgrading the attack speed of finesseable weapons. Enhancement might look something like this.

2 AP - Speed of Finesse I: Your control over lighter weapons makes you a veritable tornado of steel. You now have a 3% chance to double strike with any weapon that is considered a "Finesse" weapon.
3 AP - Speed of Finesse II (Requires Character Level 8): You further your mastery of light weapons and now receive a total of a 6% chance to double strike with any weapon that is considered a "Finesse" weapon.
4 AP - Speed of Finesse III (Requires Character Level 12): Your mastery over light weapons is almost unparalleled. You now receive a total of a 10% chance to double strike with any weapon that is considered a "Finesse" weapon.
6 AP - Speed of Finesse IV (Requires Character Level 18): Your study of tactical positioning and speed with light weapons has made you far deadlier than you could have ever imagine. You now have a total 25% chance to double strike with any weapon that is considered a "Finesse" weapon. This bonus increases to 40% when wielding a dagger.

This would make a Finesse build completely viable as DPS, as you would still sacrifice HP and such and being on the front lines would still be far more dangerous than if you were to play the other melees like fighter, barb, or pally. However, requiring two feats and a steep upgrade cost to the 4th enhancement as well as level requirements ensure that it is balanced and will not be abused by the above mentioned fighter types. Unless someone REALLY had their heart set on a finesse fighter (wierd but whatever)

Coldin
04-25-2011, 06:21 PM
Something should probably be done. Either by making Dex more valuable (AC and reflex saves more important), or by at least omitting the weapon finesse feat.

But unless changes to Dex builds could be accomplished easily, I'd rather see attention devoted to Bow-user builds first.

Iwinbyrollup
04-25-2011, 06:22 PM
We've seen Barbs, casters, s/b even get some updates to be more balanced in game.

It's time that the dex based twf finesse users are spoken for!

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?

I suggest that finesse weapons get a weapon speed bonus based upon dex bonus or fixed by type. IE rapier 4%, short sword 5%, dagger 9%... Or finesse gives chance to doublestrike since you are faster at % bonuse = to the dex modifier?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed.

come on dev's show us some love too.

As a Dex build, you get AC.

Oh, you said that AC doesn't count. Fine, AC doesn't count. So, here's a question: if Finesse builds are just downright 100% worse with absolutely no advantages over strength builds, then why build one? (If you reply to just this comment without reading the rest, you'll feel silly)

Thinking on that question for a moment. Obviously, one possible answer is you don't like "cookie cutter" builds. And that's okay. But it's hardly the case that all high strength characters are cookie cutter. Compare a strength rogue to barb to fighter to paladin to tempest to AA ranger to all the multiclasses out there, of which there are too many to mention. All can be predominantly strength and there are a lot of significant differences both within each build and between the different builds. Plus, if you go high strength, you don't NEED to play a half-orc. Because there's a difference between "high strength" and "highest strength". The argument that a max strength build is cookie cutter is ultimately not correct; sure, you can go Dex just to be different, but if Dex is inferior in every way, then why not make a dumped Str, high Int/Wis pure Barbarian? That's certainly different, and it's certainly inferior in every way (well, except Will save).

What it comes down to: there are reasons people go for Dex and make Finesse builds but don't go for high Int/Wis Barbs. They get something out of the former that they want (TWF, or rogue skills, or AC, or bow to-hit). In other words, it's not the case that Finesse builds are just downright 100% worse than Strength builds. They are worse DPS, but they have other things that people want. Building a character is ultimately working with scarcity. You have limited ability points, feats, action points, skill points, levels, class selections, and equipment slots. With your limits, you have to make decisions. Going Finesse is one possible decision that has some benefits and some disadvantages.

I would agree with the idea that in the current game setting, the disadvantages of Finesse are fairly significant and may outweigh the advantages (although not by much). That said, making Finesse an option on par with non-Finesse in terms of DPS kills the decision-making process. Seriously. My Finesse Monk would LOVE a change like that, but it would make any hard decisions easy and that's not ideal--building a character SHOULD be about making tough decisions.

(I was actually somewhat surprised when I was working on building a barbarian, who is currently sitting at level 6 if I ever add more characters to my mainstays. Feat selection AND AP selection were both much tighter than I'd expect from a class that I hear toted around as being the easiest class to play, as well as the one commonly thrown out in derisive comments when people have difficulty with any other class. And I really liked that about it, but I had 6 other characters that were higher priority than that one so he sits at 6 for now.)

Aesop
04-25-2011, 06:33 PM
suggested change to the Weapon Finesse Feat

1. As per the current Feat, the subject Dex Modifier is used in place of his Strength Modifier for melee attacks with Light and Finesse based Weapons (ie Daggers Short Swords Rapiers etc) when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier

2. Dexterity Modifier replaces Strength Modifier for purposes of calculating the DCs of Tactical Feats when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier and using a Finesse Weapon

3. On Confirmed Critical Hits the subject adds his Dexterity Modifier to has Damage, before the critical multipliers, when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier and using a Finesse Weapon

This third benefit would obviously suffer the same liitations that other Crit effects suffer from. This however should remain at least beneficial without overpowering this type of build. The underlined section will prevent gratuitous use of the feat by non Dex based builds


As the feat currently stands it does not help a dex based build to the extent that it should expecially since there are more ways of gaining Strength than dexterity and thus oft times the feat ends up rendered useless for extended durations. This costs a character a feat and should not lead people to create a WEAKER character. The AC benefit ONLY helps in a very limited number of builds and the feat should actually strengthen builds not lead to inherantly weaker builds.

Aesop

dozkal-mo
04-25-2011, 06:43 PM
Finesse != dps

Want dps?
Reincarnate to strength build.

There is no other solution.

I'm pretty sure that's his point, Shade.

And by the way, not true. My Dex/Wis Dark Monk is quite good with DPS, thank you very much, Mr. Smarty Pants.

Nodia
04-25-2011, 06:48 PM
I will take what little DPS they have left rather than have the DEV team work(nerf) them. Seems that is all they are able to do now is dumb down or nerf things.

Coldin
04-25-2011, 06:56 PM
suggested change to the Weapon Finesse Feat

1. As per the current Feat, the subject Dex Modifier is used in place of his Strength Modifier for melee attacks with Light and Finesse based Weapons (ie Daggers Short Swords Rapiers etc) when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier

2. Dexterity Modifier replaces Strength Modifier for purposes of calculating the DCs of Tactical Feats when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier and using a Finesse Weapon

3. On Confirmed Critical Hits the subject adds his Dexterity Modifier to has Damage, before the critical multipliers, when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier and using a Finesse Weapon

This third benefit would obviously suffer the same liitations that other Crit effects suffer from. This however should remain at least beneficial without overpowering this type of build. The underlined section will prevent gratuitous use of the feat by non Dex based builds


As the feat currently stands it does not help a dex based build to the extent that it should expecially since there are more ways of gaining Strength than dexterity and thus oft times the feat ends up rendered useless for extended durations. This costs a character a feat and should not lead people to create a WEAKER character. The AC benefit ONLY helps in a very limited number of builds and the feat should actually strengthen builds not lead to inherantly weaker builds.

Aesop

Technically, #1 and #2 couldn't be abused by strength builds, since there would be no reason to use their dex bonuses in the first place.

I still like #3 the best honestly, because it feels more like a dex thing. Instead of making players have to have Dex higher than Str, it could just be a very high base dex requirement. Say 19 base dex. That would stop most min-maxed builds from picking it up.

Missing_Minds
04-25-2011, 07:14 PM
One might also ask why he's using daggers.... :D


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

very first one.

Peo
04-25-2011, 07:14 PM
I think Resist Poison should be empowered. Let's face it; with Poison Immunity items, spells, potions, races, and outright trap/attack avoidance this feat deserves more attention than anything else.

Oh Turbine. Please don't make me feel like an idiot for picking the wrong feats and why should I be penalized for building contrary to my goal. Instead tweak the entire game to fit me. Just like you did with arcanes becoming DPSers.

Aesop
04-25-2011, 08:21 PM
Technically, #1 and #2 couldn't be abused by strength builds, since there would be no reason to use their dex bonuses in the first place.

I still like #3 the best honestly, because it feels more like a dex thing. Instead of making players have to have Dex higher than Str, it could just be a very high base dex requirement. Say 19 base dex. That would stop most min-maxed builds from picking it up.

I was going towards all three parts combined. You are trading out combat styles afterall.

Unless Dex Mod did something more amazing than its current Reflex and AC (which is a very marginal thing on most builds) Strength and damage mitigation by way of killing it faster will always win out and making a Finesse build is just kinda pointless. A strength build will always have a higher DPS than a Finesse build and that's fine... provided Finesse has it strong place as well.


So unless you want Dex mod to add to % damage Mitigation (a'la Shield Mastery) then we need to give Finesse a better damage potential than it currently has. The POSSIBLE AC benefit is not sufficient even with the Reflex benefit. Then again, even with further damage mitigation potential for Dex Over Heal and DPS will always outweigh the Finesse potential.

Aesop

Aesop
04-25-2011, 08:22 PM
I think Resist Poison should be empowered. Let's face it; with Poison Immunity items, spells, potions, races, and outright trap/attack avoidance this feat deserves more attention than anything else.

Oh Turbine. Please don't make me feel like an idiot for picking the wrong feats and why should I be penalized for building contrary to my goal. Instead tweak the entire game to fit me. Just like you did with arcanes becoming DPSers.

Straw Man much?

Jacoby
04-25-2011, 08:45 PM
We've seen Barbs, casters, s/b even get some updates to be more balanced in game.

It's time that the dex based twf finesse users are spoken for!

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?

I suggest that finesse weapons get a weapon speed bonus based upon dex bonus or fixed by type. IE rapier 4%, short sword 5%, dagger 9%... Or finesse gives chance to doublestrike since you are faster at % bonuse = to the dex modifier?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed.

come on dev's show us some love too.

Dude, lol... Can't stop laughing. You did get balanced, several Mods ago. Let me re-inform you...

Series of events

1) Peeps complained that Rangers were second class citizens and that TWF'ing really wasn't all it should be.

2) Turbine gave us Tempest PRE

3) Turbine game us Monks

4) Tubine giveth and Turbine taketh away

5) Turbine nerfs Wounding Puncturing weapons

6) Turbine removes last attack combat animation from Rangers and Monks which has an adverse effect on TWF animations and slowed Tempest which further impacts the TWF types but not the monks. A reevaluation never happens and were stuck with it...

7) Everyone complains to thin air but revert to THF Barbarian builds.

8) Dex build Rangers back to being second class citizens.

End of Story

sephiroth1084
04-25-2011, 08:49 PM
I'd be a pretty easy fix.

Improved Weapon Finesse: Light weapons use your dex bonus instead of strength bonus for damage.

2 feats to let you dump Str? Seems pretty fair considering you would still be at the mercy of carrying capacity, easily reduced to 0 str by ray of enfeebling/shadows, lose out on powerattack (probably), and you can't pump dex as high as strength anyway. If another feat is too costly, maybe a 4AP enhancement unlocked by weapon finesse.
As for tacking on the cost of a feat or enhancement...

Another possible solution would be to just remove Weapon Finesse from the game; finessable weapons would simply use whichever mod was higher automatically.

I think the extra feat requirement is one of the biggest problems with dex builds, especially for feat starved classes like rogues. If it weren't for that, I think it would be a decent-ish trade off: ~2-3 AC/reflex saves for 2-3 damage/some to hit.
The way I see it, there are two possible solutions to the problem at hand:



Weapon Finesse gets another mechanic added to it, which could be using Dex for damage, some special Dex-based effect added to attacks or Dex for increased attack speed--for the record, I think this is an awful suggestion, as it is incredibly difficult to balance both at present and in regards to any future additions or changes to other parts of the game.
The devs find some way to properly balance AC for the endgame, which among other things has the benefit of making focusing on Dex actually mean something again without changing any other mechanics.

Personally, while I agree that Dex-based toons need something, I don't think that simply giving them Dex to damage is a realistic solution mostly because it makes some types of characters quite a bit stronger, even, than their Str-based counterparts. Compare, for example, a Str-based rogue to a Dex-based rogue w/ Dex to damage: the former has to, at minimum split its Str and Dex at around 14/14 (more likely 15/15 or 16/16), while the latter could go 12/18 or 12/20, netting better use of build points, in addition to better Reflex, important skills and AC. Sure, it costs a feat, which is an issue certainly, but I'm not sure it's quite an even trade at that point. The fact that characters continue to go Dex-based without being gimps seems to indicate to me that the difference in power, at least for some characters, isn't as big a gap as some would like to believe.

But maybe the cost of a feat is big enough to justify that kind of swing. Maybe tack on a 2 or 4 AP cost as well, unlocked by the feat that gives the Dex to damage? Is the cost of having to use weaker weapons, in general, added to the feat cost enough to balance that? Maybe.

Iwinbyrollup
04-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Straw Man much?

While the phrasing could have been done less rudely, it's a valid point: you say that Finesse needs more because Dex isn't useful on most builds, but why should Weapon Finesse be a feat that every melee should want or take? If all feat slots were taken up by "given" feats, that would be no fun.

Weapon Finesse is a feat that IS useful to some builds, which puts it far ahead of several feats, such as the mentioned Resist Poison, Snake Blood, most of the skill boosting feats (short of Skill Focus), Improved Fortification, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Power Critical, and Precision. For some builds, this feat is very nice as is.

Seriously. You say that it needs a boost, but your reason is because it's only useful for a few builds. Is that a problem? Combat Expertise is only useful for a few builds, should it be changed for that reason alone? There are many feats that the majority of players don't take; some of them because they're not useful feats, others because they're nice to have but generally less of a priority (see Enlarge and Augment Summoning, both of which are occasional choices for Wizards but rarely make the cut for any other casters), others because they're only useful for specific builds (Combat Expertise, Manyshot, Bow Strength). Weapon Finesse is useful, just for specific builds.

A feat being only useful for a few builds isn't a reason to change it. A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful.

A Finesse Monk with AC can be extremely powerful. Throw in enough Strength to do passable damage, good stun DCs, and Displacement...this build would be impossible without Finesse. Sure, you could do better DPS going strength-based, but what you lose in DPS on such a build, you gain in damage prevention.

Iwinbyrollup
04-25-2011, 08:59 PM
But maybe the cost of a feat is big enough to justify that kind of swing. Maybe tack on a 2 or 4 AP cost as well, unlocked by the feat that gives the Dex to damage? Is the cost of having to use weaker weapons, in general, added to the feat cost enough to balance that? Maybe.

Keep in mind that the single highest damage weapon type for 100% fort mobs is Finesse-usable (Unarmed on monks). Another Finesse weapon (Rapier) is getting a proxy-buff in U9 through the new helpless mechanics, and rapiers are, as well as scimitars which they are identical to in every way except damage type, a solid choice for TWF DPS toons, even if falling behind khopeshes.

Finesse rogues or rangers with rapiers, Finesse monks...yeah. MOST of the Finesse weapons aren't great, but there are definitely some good options.

sephiroth1084
04-25-2011, 09:00 PM
While the phrasing could have been done less rudely, it's a valid point: you say that Finesse needs more because Dex isn't useful on most builds, but why should Weapon Finesse be a feat that every melee should want or take? If all feat slots were taken up by "given" feats, that would be no fun.

Weapon Finesse is a feat that IS useful to some builds, which puts it far ahead of several feats, such as the mentioned Resist Poison, Snake Blood, most of the skill boosting feats (short of Skill Focus), Improved Fortification, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Power Critical, and Precision. For some builds, this feat is very nice as is.

Seriously. You say that it needs a boost, but your reason is because it's only useful for a few builds. Is that a problem? Combat Expertise is only useful for a few builds, should it be changed for that reason alone? There are many feats that the majority of players don't take; some of them because they're not useful feats, others because they're nice to have but generally less of a priority (see Enlarge and Augment Summoning, both of which are occasional choices for Wizards but rarely make the cut for any other casters), others because they're only useful for specific builds (Combat Expertise, Manyshot, Bow Strength). Weapon Finesse is useful, just for specific builds.

A feat being only useful for a few builds isn't a reason to change it. A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful.

A Finesse Monk with AC can be extremely powerful. Throw in enough Strength to do passable damage, good stun DCs, and Displacement...this build would be impossible without Finesse. Sure, you could do better DPS going strength-based, but what you lose in DPS on such a build, you gain in damage prevention.
That all assumes that your AC is actually preventing damage, which at this point is highly content-dependent. If you're running Gianthold, it probably is. If you're running epic whatever, it probably isn't. Also, notable, is the difficult in acquiring enough Dex-based AC to be relevant without monk levels. Is it doable? Maybe, but is certainly not attractive.

sephiroth1084
04-25-2011, 09:05 PM
Keep in mind that the single highest damage weapon type for 100% fort mobs is Finesse-usable (Unarmed on monks). Another Finesse weapon (Rapier) is getting a proxy-buff in U9 through the new helpless mechanics, and rapiers are, as well as scimitars which they are identical to in every way except damage type, a solid choice for TWF DPS toons, even if falling behind khopeshes.

Finesse rogues or rangers with rapiers, Finesse monks...yeah. MOST of the Finesse weapons aren't great, but there are definitely some good options.
Well, fists are another matter, though they are part of the reason I mentioned Dex to damage may be too much.

As for the other weapons, we tend to have more DR/slashing or blunt than DR/piercing to worry about in the game. The finessable options aren't awful, but they are definitely worse than the non-finessable choices. As for weapons in general, I was more thinking about the difference between rapiers and khopeshes. Both styles cost a feat, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency is gaining quite a bit more in the DPS department than Weapon Finesse is. That said, I don't think the difference is big enough to justify increasing the Dex build's damage per swing by so much in addition to the other benefits that come with a high Dex.

Iwinbyrollup
04-25-2011, 09:12 PM
That all assumes that your AC is actually preventing damage, which at this point is highly content-dependent. If you're running Gianthold, it probably is. If you're running epic whatever, it probably isn't. Also, notable, is the difficult in acquiring enough Dex-based AC to be relevant without monk levels. Is it doable? Maybe, but is certainly not attractive.

Yeah, definitely easiest with monk levels.

I admit that I wasn't talking about epic content. With the currently-unknown changes to epic, it will be interesting to see what, if anything, in this regard is changed.

If ALL you're doing is running Epic, then Finesse builds lose a lot there. Adding content other than epic increases their usefulness. That said, I'm not sure that all builds are meant for epic. I certainly have created builds that I wouldn't take into most epic quests unless specifically requested despite having fun with them because they weren't designed for that. I would be willing to take a Finesse build into epic so long as it isn't completely unable to get things done.


Well, fists are another matter, though they are part of the reason I mentioned Dex to damage may be too much.

As for the other weapons, we tend to have more DR/slashing or blunt than DR/piercing to worry about in the game. The finessable options aren't awful, but they are definitely worse than the non-finessable choices. As for weapons in general, I was more thinking about the difference between rapiers and khopeshes. Both styles cost a feat, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency is gaining quite a bit more in the DPS department than Weapon Finesse is. That said, I don't think the difference is big enough to justify increasing the Dex build's damage per swing by so much in addition to the other benefits that come with a high Dex.

I assumed when you said you thought it would be too much that you had unarmed in mind. The slashing/blunt issue is true though and a good point; piercing comes in the form of some magical spiders and rakshasas, if I recall, and not much else. Slashing/blunt will be a bigger deal if we get more undead-related endgame content.

Exotic does beat out Finesse, but as you note, changing it to improve DPS might really mess things up here.

I think we're roughly on the same page. I wouldn't mind a buff to Weapon Finesse to make it more useful (as noted, my monk is Finesse--I wouldn't complain about a boost), but it certainly has its purposes and I personally don't think buffing damage is the way to go.

Aesop
04-25-2011, 09:17 PM
While the phrasing could have been done less rudely, it's a valid point: you say that Finesse needs more because Dex isn't useful on most builds, but why should Weapon Finesse be a feat that every melee should want or take? If all feat slots were taken up by "given" feats, that would be no fun.

Weapon Finesse is a feat that IS useful to some builds, which puts it far ahead of several feats, such as the mentioned Resist Poison, Snake Blood, most of the skill boosting feats (short of Skill Focus), Improved Fortification, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Power Critical, and Precision. For some builds, this feat is very nice as is.

Seriously. You say that it needs a boost, but your reason is because it's only useful for a few builds. Is that a problem? Combat Expertise is only useful for a few builds, should it be changed for that reason alone? There are many feats that the majority of players don't take; some of them because they're not useful feats, others because they're nice to have but generally less of a priority (see Enlarge and Augment Summoning, both of which are occasional choices for Wizards but rarely make the cut for any other casters), others because they're only useful for specific builds (Combat Expertise, Manyshot, Bow Strength). Weapon Finesse is useful, just for specific builds.

A feat being only useful for a few builds isn't a reason to change it. A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful.

A Finesse Monk with AC can be extremely powerful. Throw in enough Strength to do passable damage, good stun DCs, and Displacement...this build would be impossible without Finesse. Sure, you could do better DPS going strength-based, but what you lose in DPS on such a build, you gain in damage prevention.



Combat Expertise is useful for pretty much ANY AC build. Many Shot and Bow Strength are THE FEATs for a ranged build... and more to the point each of those Increase the Damage potential of the style.

Weapon Finesse supports the notion that a Dex based Melee combatant is effective. While not only failing to create that situation, it reduces the number of Feat slots the character have available. Thereby further reducing the potential DPS. If the Feat didn't exist and Finesse fighting just happened when the conditions of Light/finesse weapon use and DEx Mod exceeding Strength Mod then there wouldn't be an issue... but this costs a feat for a lower potential.

Given this I would say your sentence

"A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful."

actually applies to Weapon Finesse. People use it, but the builds would be improved by dropping their Dex a little and upping their Strength and dropping the weapon finesse feat. A Loss of 1-3 AC and increasing DPS AND gaining a Feat back is more than worth it.


mmm...tired... bed night

bigolbear
04-25-2011, 09:25 PM
the only problem with weapon finese high dex builds is that end game AC is meaningless and decent reflex saves can be achieved through heavy gearing, multiclassing and buffs. (my battle cleric with 8 dex has a passable evasion save)

to fix the balance issue with weapon finesse you have to fix end game AC.

mid game and low lvls a finesse build works just fine, sure the dps is lower but the survivability is much higher.

@ chai
what you said about using dex to hit, yes your right but i dont think it would work for ddo the way it is. Ive been experimenting in pen and paper using str mod + half dex mod for damage and dex mod + half str mod for to hit. this seems to work well.

Asketes
04-25-2011, 09:26 PM
That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. daggers huh?


Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30. Strength?......

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?Wondering why you are using daggers and not rapiers or something, those are finesse able right?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed. You cannot finesse a khopesh

come on dev's show us some love too.

They should never be on par DPS for DPS. It'd be neat to allow those who are not so strength inclined but still want to poke and prod, to offer something to the party. MAYBE.

While I think the OP is vastly off the mark in where finesse builds should stand, they downright as effective as S&B at the moment.

Thar
04-25-2011, 09:39 PM
That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. daggers huh? my point while extreme was to show that any weapon choice should be viable. just like any spell choice now should be useable.

Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30. Strength?...... Why does every fighter need to have max str? 30-40 vs 100-300 is too big a gap that it should be balanced.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?Wondering why you are using daggers and not rapiers or something, those are finesse able right? yes, see point 1 above.

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed. You cannot finesse a khopesh. this is my point, to present an option for finesse builds that keeps them viable vs str builds but still below in dps since they get some ac benefit although it's debatable if it's useful (espec non monk splash).

come on dev's show us some love too.They should never be on par DPS for DPS. It'd be neat to allow those who are not so strength inclined but still want to poke and prod, to offer something to the party. MAYBE. why shouldn't other builds be viable? why have feats like finesse, CE, dodge in game if no benefit? Why have spells in game with no benefit. oh wait they are fixing that.


Drizzt is more dex based than str so should that build not be viable? it is in pnp. It was in ddo previously until all the changes.

uthanak69
04-25-2011, 10:19 PM
How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.


Those Barbs actually put points into STR.

Try it someday :)

sephiroth1084
04-25-2011, 11:04 PM
Yeah, definitely easiest with monk levels.

I admit that I wasn't talking about epic content. With the currently-unknown changes to epic, it will be interesting to see what, if anything, in this regard is changed.

If ALL you're doing is running Epic, then Finesse builds lose a lot there. Adding content other than epic increases their usefulness. That said, I'm not sure that all builds are meant for epic. I certainly have created builds that I wouldn't take into most epic quests unless specifically requested despite having fun with them because they weren't designed for that. I would be willing to take a Finesse build into epic so long as it isn't completely unable to get things done.



I assumed when you said you thought it would be too much that you had unarmed in mind. The slashing/blunt issue is true though and a good point; piercing comes in the form of some magical spiders and rakshasas, if I recall, and not much else. Slashing/blunt will be a bigger deal if we get more undead-related endgame content.

Exotic does beat out Finesse, but as you note, changing it to improve DPS might really mess things up here.

I think we're roughly on the same page. I wouldn't mind a buff to Weapon Finesse to make it more useful (as noted, my monk is Finesse--I wouldn't complain about a boost), but it certainly has its purposes and I personally don't think buffing damage is the way to go.
I had a finesse rogue and a finesse monk. The rogue just got TR'ed to Str-based, and the monk is slated to maybe go the same route. That said, I don't think finesse builds are that far behind Str-based characters, but they are in need of a boost. The rogue I actually prefer as a Dex-based toon, I think, except that I'd rather have the rogue PL feat than Weapon Finesse, and pure rogue instead of 19/1 fighter or monk.

Aesop
04-26-2011, 05:29 AM
On the AC score... where is the AC benefit when there are mass cures being thrown around for over healing.

Add in passable Agro management and AC value drops again

Missing_Minds
04-26-2011, 05:51 AM
Ah, choices to be made. And when things don't go your way you can do one of a few options.

1. complain and hope that maybe whining will cause changes.
2. present factual data for your case and attempt to make changes happen over a long period of time.
3. realize that is the choice you made for better or apparently worse,
a. adapt and become a better player.
b. TR and start over.
c. Lesser and fix the supposed issues with your character.

Finesse builds, in my opinion, lost true viability LONG LONG ago when the change to stat damaging was done. No, I'm not talking con death, I'm talking way before that, back when on hit caused stat damage, not on damage.

Now, nothing says Finesse builds can't vorpal with the rest of them, and guess what, come U9 you can again!

I do wonder how many of the people saying finesse needs changes are playing monk or rouge builds. I mean mostly monk builds get unarmed attacks that beat dr/- just from dice damage in a good chunck of cases, and rogues have sneak attack that really add in dps.

Asketes
04-26-2011, 08:09 AM
Drizzt is more dex based than str so should that build not be viable? it is in pnp. It was in ddo previously until all the changes.no it wasn't

This is not and has not ever been pnp, this is a video game with a D&D theme. They've always bent the rules and/or created their own to suite the needs of the game.

grodon9999
04-26-2011, 08:17 AM
Make AC viable throughout the whole game and these threads will stop popping up every 2-3 days.

It can be done now as we have SO much more DPS gear available from the past year that you give up a hell of a lot more DPS slotting for AC than you used to. Between Claw set (versus Epic Spectrals and AC 8 Bracers), Redscale (over Icy Rainments for PJ wearers), Holy/Burst/Blast versus an insight-weapon, and a second ToD set (say ravager over Chattering ring) we're talking 20+ a swing.

I still think a DEX-toon should swing faster, Weapon Finesse should give you stacking double-strike equal to your DEX bonus (as should Tempest III).

BananaHat
04-26-2011, 09:20 AM
A ranged pass is supposed to be next, it was stated it would be next after the spell pass. Makes sense with deepwood sniper 2 coming up in the somewhat nearish future. (Along with ninja spy 3 I think)

Asketes
04-26-2011, 09:29 AM
A ranged pass is supposed to be next, it was stated it would be next after the spell pass. Makes sense with deepwood sniper 2 coming up in the somewhat nearish future. (Along with ninja spy 3 I think)

I can see it now

Instead of beefing up ranged DPS, they will scale down all melee DPS to the same output as ranged.

/sigh

SableShadow
04-26-2011, 09:32 AM
I do wonder how many of the people saying finesse needs changes are playing monk or rogue builds.

Edit in rouge. ;)

grodon9999
04-26-2011, 09:32 AM
I can see it now

Instead of beefing up ranged DPS, they will scale down all melee DPS to the same output as ranged.

/sigh

LOL - with the U9 nerfs ranged needs love, the helplessness change hurts bows terribly, possibly as bad as picks.

VonBek
04-26-2011, 10:04 AM
That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe.

While my Finesse/Perforator feels a bit glum, these days, don't forget that sexy shoeless god of war has a cat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html). I think it would help if Halfling Rangers with the Weapon Finesse feat could dual wield cats. How could that not make a Barbarian happier?

scampb
04-26-2011, 11:55 AM
I have a dex based finesse Rogue, Wisspering (L17 now, sig not updated). She does just fine the way she is and does not need STR to be viable. I can lead, or be close to leading, kills in most quests (Monks still take me to town). Min/Max'ing aside, a dex based character can do just fine. You just need to know how to play them. I don't run into the room and grab all the agro or guess what...I'm dead. I follow the Barb/Fighter/Monk and let them get the agro, pop in behind and cut them down faster than a hot knife through butter. I use Rapiers and short swords too. Finesse is fine the way it is.

Aesop
04-26-2011, 04:09 PM
I still think a DEX-toon should swing faster, Weapon Finesse should give you stacking double-strike equal to your DEX bonus (as should Tempest III).

I remember when that notion was put forth way back before Update 2.

A double strike chance equal to Dex Mod would be interesting... though that might be a bit high opwered... perhaps Half Dex Mod and only if you are using Dex for the attack.


Aesop

Gnorbert
04-26-2011, 04:21 PM
To me, the problem is that there are not enough sources for boosting dex. If I'm dex based but do not ignore strength because I want to be able to actually do some damage... then at end game, when buffed, my strength will still often surpass my dex. At which point the weapon finesse feat is actually hurting my to-hit.

That should not happen.

TreknaQudane
04-26-2011, 05:21 PM
At which point the weapon finesse feat is actually hurting my to-hit.

That should not happen.

That's because it DOES NOT HAPPEN

Finesse gives you use your Dexterity for your to Hit with Light Weapons (And Rapiers) If, and only If, it is higher than your Strength Score. If your STR ever surpasses your DEX, you'll switch back to using STR for your to hit.

One of the most annoying things I've run into are occasions like Breeze and Staff of Nat Gann that requires you use DEX for to hit and damage... Not an option, you use it even if it's detrimental to.

grodon9999
04-26-2011, 05:26 PM
A double strike chance equal to Dex Mod would be interesting... though that might be a bit high opwered... perhaps Half Dex Mod and only if you are using Dex for the attack.


Aesop

Crunch the numbers in the DPS calc, it's not.

Aesop
04-26-2011, 05:48 PM
Crunch the numbers in the DPS calc, it's not.

do you have a good up to date DPS Calulator?

grodon9999
04-26-2011, 05:51 PM
do you have a good up to date DPS Calulator?

Google DDO DPS calc.

Keep in mind it's finessable weapon's we're talking about.

DustTheWind
04-28-2011, 01:11 AM
We've seen Barbs, casters, s/b even get some updates to be more balanced in game.

It's time that the dex based twf finesse users are spoken for!

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?

I suggest that finesse weapons get a weapon speed bonus based upon dex bonus or fixed by type. IE rapier 4%, short sword 5%, dagger 9%... Or finesse gives chance to doublestrike since you are faster at % bonuse = to the dex modifier?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed.

come on dev's show us some love too.


Funny you mention it. I made a suggestion in the suggestion forums a while ago that would put any weapon user on about similar footing. However it would be such a change that I am not sure they would make an attempt at it or not. It basically has to do with changing the way weapon damage is played out and focusing more on strength and dex to do damage.

However feates can be used to give other stats a chance to increase damage instead if you have a different build.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3749830#post3749830

JasonJi72
04-28-2011, 01:36 AM
Improved weapon finesse: Add 10% attack speed to finessable weapons.

Problem solved...

Aesop
04-28-2011, 05:23 AM
Improved weapon finesse: Add 10% attack speed to finessable weapons.

Problem solved...

Problem is that is a second Feat. On feat starved builds you are now requiring 2 feats to make a combat style effective.

The feat Weapon Finesse needs to be ACTUALLY effective on its own... or removed and just make Light and Finesse weapons use the higher of Dex mod and str mod to determine attack

Aesop

ThePrincipal
05-01-2011, 07:34 PM
even 2 feats would be too little. if for 2 feats i could get 10% attck speed with rapiers and use max dex to hit/damage, dex for ac, and reflex... everyone would be a drow max dex finese melee

the arguement that a precise shot is more deadly in real life then a brute force attack is demonstrated in ddo with the sneak attack.

SA is a about training, not dex. being able to twirl a light weapon is not the same as knowing where your opponent is most vulnerable.

finese feat is fine the way it is. you could make the agruement that rogues should get weapon finese as a given feat at lvl 1

Aesop
05-01-2011, 09:09 PM
By that logic all weapons should be based on Dexterity and not Strength. Strength doesn't let you target any better. However Hand Eye Coordination (represented in this system, along with reaction, by Dexterity) is what would allow someone to be better able to strike their opponent. Strength is brute force, and thus would allow you to hit HARDER but not more accurately.


Weapon Finesse is not a good Feat. It gives the player the impression that a Dex Based Melee Attacker is a GOOD option. The reality is that the builds created with this feat are at a disadvantage in terms of DPS and the benefits of a higher Dex are generally NOT significant enough to off set that DPS disadvantage.

Now this is not to say that a good player can't play a Dex Based Melee well and do alright for themselves. I'm just saying that the cost of the Feat is too much for the EFFECT of the Feat.

The Feat should be improved OR removed. If removed then Light and Finesse Weapons should use Dexterity if the Dexterity is higher than the Strength. If improved, there have been a few suggestions made.

1. Dexterity Modifier adds to Critical Damage before multipliers.
2. Dexterity Modifier adds to the Double Strike Chance (full or half Mod)
3. Dexterity Modifier adds straight to damage

and because I'm a little tired I forget the others

as an aside I notice that you say 10% attack speed and Dex to hit AND to DAMAGE...

that wasn't what was said or alluded to. the Feat Weapon Finesse ONLY has Dexterity replace Strength for to hit rolls NOT for Damage. If Weapon Finesse added to Damage then Dex builds would be significantly better (though would still cost a Feat and still Strength Builds would out DPS them due to more modifiers adding to Strength than to Dexterity, but then the benefits of Dexterity to AC and Reflex save may make up for the difference in DPS)

Aesop

Monkeytoe
05-03-2011, 11:27 PM
Finesse != dps


Who told the barb' how to use logical operators?

Daunth
05-04-2011, 04:44 AM
imho, it's simple:
- dex-based builds need to be viable
- dex-based builds need to be different than str-based builds. they can't just do the same thing (dps)

So, dex builds have the following advantages:
- AC
- Reflex
- Ranged attack

While str builds have the following advantages
- str is easy to increase
- melee damage bonus
- tactical feat DC (except trip)
- ranged damage bonus (!!!)

So, why are dex-based builds inferior? Because their advantages are worthless in DDO.
- AC becomes worthless at higher levels, and it is hard to stack at lower levels, when it still counts, for new players (which would be the ones who would benefit more from dex builds)
- Ranged damage is inferior to str-based builds because of this abomination called bow strength. And even if it wasn't, ranged damage would still be neglectable due to the game's mechanics


So, the way to make dex viable while still making it different from str is simple: work on the known advantages of dex.
- AC won't be saved. The s&b tweaks clearly show that the devs are planning to redefine the concept of defense in DDO by working on damage % mitigation rather than binary (hit/not hit) AC. So, dex-based defense should count too. A possible solution would be to associate dex with proportional DR (for example, dex mod +6 = 4% DR, limited by the maximum dex bonus of armors and shields. Or 1 mod = 1%, or 0,5... whatever value is more balanced to prevent dex from taking s&b's place)
- ranged damage will always be inferior to melee, because if it were equal then everything would be kited to death (why should I melee and take damage if I can deal as much damage without being touched?). Bow strenght should just go away (and maybe be replaced by Bow dexterity), maybe a little str bonus could be added to composite bows like PnP, but strength tanks should never deal more damage with a bow. The problem is: content. Ranged weapons deals less damage, therefore are not needed. The solution is: design new content with many situations where melee combat is inferior, and having someome who can switch to bows is an asset. It's not hard. Give a good ranged damage to dex toons and give them quests where they can shine, and the added flexibility from being able to switch between bow and finesse weapons will be valuable. And prevent str toons from filling the same role. This would also make rangers more important, as they'd be the only ones who can deal ranged damage without specializing in it.

In other words: str = dps, dex = flexibility. Since the current content says "here's the boss, beat him as hard as you can", dps rules over flexibility. Work on the content, and dex will become more important.

Aesop
05-04-2011, 05:30 AM
The idea of Dex adding to Mitigation similar to how Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery now are is interesting, but adding content specifically for Dex based wouldn't fix the issue it would just polarize the players.


Finesse can be damage dealing. Finesse is speed and accuracy. So focus on those aspects and you can create a different dps while still having dps.

The 3 suggestions most related to these concepts are

Dex Mod added as Sneak Attack Damage

Dex Mod to Critical Damage (before Multipliers)

Dex mod (or a fraction there of) to Double Strike Chance


Heck you could go with all of these in some form as long as you included that Dex must exceed Strength for the benefits to apply and it doesn't make dex too powerful.


I do like (while simultaneously having reservations about) the idea about Dex Mitigation.

Perhaps 1/2 Dex Mod as mitigation... but then there are a bunch of issues that brings up as well

Aesop

lhidda
05-04-2011, 05:42 AM
Finesse != dps

Want dps?
Reincarnate to strength build.

There is no other solution.

No. Just no.

NaturalHazard
05-04-2011, 06:01 AM
When I first started playing I rolled a dex toon, weapon finess feels like a waste when I could get my Str higher than my dex by quite a margin, and that was with 14 starting str and 18 starting dex, 5 level ups into dex, 5 from enhancements into dex, titans grip, madestone boots and my my str is higher than my dex.

When i tr, im definately not going dex based.

THOTHdha
05-04-2011, 06:08 AM
That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it.

But they already did add the fix for this. Quite awhile ago.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Item:True_Druidic_Heart_of_Wood

JasonJi72
05-04-2011, 06:34 AM
Yes, ac should be meaningful.

No, bow strength should not be deleted.

Yes, Finnesse builds need some love.

No, Dex should not equal str in dps.

Suggestions:

Ranged deals dex damage.

Provide an evasion % for very high dex (either stackable with or not made useless by blur and displacement).

Improved Weapon Finesse ~ Prereqs: 19 Dex, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Melee Weapon Focus.
Provides +5% Stackable doublestrike to melee weapons you are focused in, or provide +10% speed to focused weapons like Tempest I used to (the high dex and feat requirements should limit exploitation to some degree).

Allow more weapons to be finessed: Staff and spear come to mind... please add spear btw lol.

OR... You could avoid all that and just make AC relevant.

Good Times!

Daunth
05-04-2011, 09:25 AM
AC will never be balanced. This is because the original concept of AC 3.5 is flawed: either you try to get max AC, or you neglect it at all, because enemy attack bonus is balanced around max AC (otherwise some toons would be invincible). It's 1 or 0.

AC can only be fixed when having 100 AC is better than 40 which is better than 30. Right now, 40 is equal to 30 which is equal to 0. In other words, it will be fixed when it will be useful to have +1 AC, regardless of your current value and level. Nothing can be done without changing the d&d 3.5 system.



Also, regarding weapon damage, in AD&D some weapons like daggers had a damage modifier based on Str/2+Dex/2. That would help a lot, really.

Khanyth
05-04-2011, 09:35 AM
Sorry........ when did barbs get love?

Truga
05-04-2011, 09:56 AM
I'd be a pretty easy fix.

Improved Weapon Finesse: Light weapons use your dex bonus instead of strength bonus for damage.

2 feats to let you dump Str? Seems pretty fair considering you would still be at the mercy of carrying capacity, easily reduced to 0 str by ray of enfeebling/shadows, lose out on powerattack (probably), and you can't pump dex as high as strength anyway. If another feat is too costly, maybe a 4AP enhancement unlocked by weapon finesse.

This. Everyone already knows it's "easy" to get str sky high, while stacking dex is a bit harder. Just let finessers use rapiers/light weapons with dex only, their dps will not do what str dps does due to str stacking way higher.

This will still leave str build in a nice dps advantage position, but let dex builds slot AC gear, rather than str gear.

Heck, I'd even make weapon finesse free on rapier/light weapons and make the weapon finesse feat add dex as damage mod. It's still costs one feat, it's still in every way except AC inferior to str. I don't see why shade & co. are afraid of this change.

grodon9999
05-04-2011, 10:00 AM
OR... You could avoid all that and just make AC relevant.



It would make things so much easier now wouldn't it? We can now insta-kill in epics yet AC is too much?

Truga
05-04-2011, 10:33 AM
OR... You could avoid all that and just make AC relevant.Thing is, I can already get "relevant" AC for most content on normal my "gimp" rogue by doing a large amount of grind to get all the relevant gear. However, said rogue will do utterly pathetic damage due to dps (who are we kidding) err str gear being on the same spots AC gear sits.

I dumped str at creation (first char etc, 10 str I think), and can now hit 22 consistently with minimal (very minimal) gear and a tome. (10+2 tome +6 item +2 ship +2 rage) 12 STR cheap.

My dex sits at 30. I started with 18, 3 level ups, +2 tome, +6 item +1 enhancement. At 16-20 I put the point in CON, since it's better spent there, which I now know (first char, 10 base con). I could get it to 36 dex if I stacked all the enhancements and level ups, but it would make exactly 0 difference in my combat efficiency. It doesn't add to damage, and while it does add to AC, AC doesn't help when you're doing 10 damage per hit at level 20.

If, however, dex gave the same kind of bonus str gives, I'd have enough damage to not be laughed when I used AC gear instead of only having str and hp gear fitted.

And, since there's no sight of anything changing, I'm going to TR this rogue into a WF monster dps character. Rage, madstone, titan gloves, etc, etc. STR is just plain easier to get sky-high than AC is, and current meta-game prefers HP and damage over anything else.

grodon9999
05-04-2011, 10:38 AM
Thing is, I can already get "relevant" AC for most content on normal my "gimp" rogue by doing a large amount of grind to get all the relevant gear. However, said rogue will do utterly pathetic damage due to dps (who are we kidding) err str gear being on the same spots AC gear sits.

I dumped str at creation (first char etc, 10 str I think), and can now hit 22 consistently with minimal (very minimal) gear and a tome. (10+2 tome +6 item +2 ship +2 rage) 12 STR cheap.

My dex sits at 30. I started with 18, 3 level ups, +2 tome, +6 item +1 enhancement. At 16-20 I put the point in CON, since it's better spent there, which I now know (first char, 10 base con). I could get it to 36 dex if I stacked all the enhancements and level ups, but it would make exactly 0 difference in my combat efficiency. It doesn't add to damage, and while it does add to AC, AC doesn't help when you're doing 10 damage per hit at level 20.

If, however, dex gave the same kind of bonus str gives, I'd have enough damage to not be laughed when I used AC gear instead of only having str and hp gear fitted.

And, since there's no sight of anything changing, I'm going to TR this rogue into a WF monster dps character. Rage, madstone, titan gloves, etc, etc. STR is just plain easier to get sky-high than AC is, and current meta-game prefers HP and damage over anything else.

No you cannot, not in epics. At a buffed 90 AC trash still hits me every shot which is ridiculous.

With all the gear we have in the game now that adds to DPS it is completely reasonable to lower the mob to-hits significantly. Every piece of gear your slot, stat you distribute, level you take, and feat you pick for AC affects your DPS. We're looking at 20+ a swing now in the difference between AC and DPS gear slotting. It's a enough of a sacrifice that it absolutely should be of value.

The to-hits in Elite Amrath are good, it's impossible to be invulnerable there on a build that can actually hurt things yet you can still mitigate damage via defense.

If AC worked in the whole game (it's fine in non-epic content) nobody would try to come up with creative solutions for finesse to give more DPS. Shade's right, finesse is NOT DPS but it should be of some value throughout the whole game.

Monkeytoe
05-04-2011, 10:37 PM
If a... Dex build... could match the DPS of a Str build... Then Dex builds would be the new "build this or you're a no0b!!11!" build: Max DPS and max AC FTW!

It wouldn't add any new viability to "flavor builds" or create a renaissance in the art of AC tanking. It would only encourage the lunatic fringe to respec to the new uber... with much gnashing of teeth, sure... but just as there will always an uber spec, there will always be some degree of teeth-gnashing.

Making CC type feats more practical for Dex builds, defining some path or criteria for adding Dex bonus to these feats... seems more likely to make dex builds more fun for the people who enjoy playing Dex builds and more appreciated by parties that will always be majority straight-forward DPS.


Weapon Finesse should give you stacking double-strike equal to your DEX bonus.
I think that would be cool, especially in the case of a Dex based AC build in a sword and board situation.

I think that some kind of synergy between finesse and CE might be interesting, or some added benefit that having both could give to melee-CC feats.

I don't mind doing less DPS on an AC build, what I mind is the concept of AC build being a "one-trick pony", the practical fact that only the absolute highest AC will enable that pony to do its one trick when a party really wants someone to tank, and the fact that all of the feats a high AC "melee-controller" type character would want to use are better served by DPS builds!

Truga
05-05-2011, 04:32 AM
If a... Dex build... could match the DPS of a Str build...A dex build can never do as much DPS as a STR build even in an 1:1 damage ratio situation, because STR just stacks way higher. I've often seen 50+ (even seen screens in high 60s) STR fighters/barbs, but I've yet to see a 50+ dex build. So that's almost a 20 point difference. And then there's the problem with carry weight, jump, constant knockdowns by trash (if they can hit your AC obviously), etc. There's a lot of downsides to dumping str, no matter what the people here try to tell you, not just non-existent dps.


No you cannot, not in epics.I did say normal. :P
But yeah, that's besides the point, in epic I hear AC in the 100s doesn't really do anything in most if not all quests.

My problem with dex offering exactly _zero_ extra damage is mainly with the HP inflation in ddo. At levels 1-10 dex builds are awesome (you never get hit, and enemies have ****all hp so damage won't matter too much). Arguably 1-13. After that, enemies will start having more and more hp. I can't imagine playing an AC monk in elite IQ/Shavarath. The damage is appalling, the enemies often have >2000 hp, and vorpals won't work until you take half it's hp down.

The second problem is new intimidate/hate mechanics. While there's no difference for hate tanks, and DoS/SD sport a huge hate generation bonus (do they? I haven't played any since u9 :P), how would a dex AC tank keep aggro on itself? It has no str (gear in AC/dex/hp, no space for str/dps). It has low damage, and the only thing it's going for it is high saves, evasion and of course AC. The build, however, cannot steal aggro even from a gimp dex rogue like mine, because the rogue will at least be getting 17d6 SA damage each hit, and probably sport well over 20 str (10+2 tome +6 item +2 ship +2 rage = 22 on my dumped str rogue with no madstone/exceptional/titan's gripu/etc).

Since intimidate doesn't work for them anymore, how are dex AC builds supposed to keep aggro? This doesn't concern me, since I don't have one of these but it is a problem. And, with the enormous amounts of HP, going str is pretty much the only option because enemies still hit you on a 20 even with AC, so if you can't take them down fast, they will kill you eventually if you're only hitting for 50/hit.

Monkeytoe
05-05-2011, 08:16 AM
A dex build can never do as much DPS as a STR build
Maybe I'd have a better chance of being understood in the French or German forums...

DustTheWind
05-06-2011, 04:14 AM
I agree with those above that state ranged and weapons finnesse weapons damage should be increased by dex bonus. Looks like it was already implimented in D&D as well.

And even if AC was more usefull it would still be rather useless if it still take you twice as long to do the same job. There by taking twice the damage. Ranged being only a part exception to that but even they have to deal with swaping out for normal weapons cause of slow kill time.

elujin
05-06-2011, 04:25 AM
number 1 fix is beeing able to stack dex higher then str so you get a to hit bonus over str this would help new players.
seccond a way to make dex = more defence

the dps is fine and not that far behind str you just don't gain anything in return for your lost dps by doing so at this point

edite : oh and if you take away bow strengt il kill you all :D

mikesharpshooter
05-06-2011, 04:29 AM
finese Builds Shouldnt Be Dps Builds.

What Needs Fixing Is The Ac Or Some Other, More Worthwhile Benefit Should Be Gotten Of Being A Finese..

+1 :)

Noctus
05-06-2011, 08:31 AM
I don't think that the problem is necessary with finesse dex builds or strength builds, I think the problem is with the actual weapon selection. As it stands there is absolutely no reason to dual wield anything other than khopeshes, or dwarven axes (if you are a dwarf). Everything else is pathetic in comparison.


Your wrong in this basic. So the rest of your argument falls with this presumtion as it is based on this being true.

For example the good old Rapier/Scimitar is best when you have significant sneak attacks (lets define this as 7+ levels of Rogue) and thus can reap great profit with a Radiance Rapier/Scimitar from the much higher crit range.

Or the Rapier/Shortsword combo on a Drow/Elf who doesnt have bonus feats in abundance (so every non-Fighter character), who has an effective +4 to hit over the dual-Kopesh guy. +2 from racial enhancements, and +2 from being able to spend the feat on OTWF instead of EWP:Kopesh.