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View Full Version : New epics please. Nothing going to be released for a year?!



Nick_RC
04-22-2011, 09:07 AM
Having read the letter I must say I'm not impressed. I have been supportive of the changes being made to epics in U9 and excited about the spellpass and somewhat interested in the crafting. I, and many others, were hoping this was setting the foundation for a bevy of new epic quests this year.

It sounds like this isn't going to be the case. Epic GH would keep us busy for a while maybe it's time to dust that off, spruce it up or do whatever u need to do to make it ready.

I'm actually disgusted at the lack of attention focused at the endgame. Level 16. Bleh. I get the sinking feeling that the update after that will be a level 20 release but will be aimed at those who have just recently capped. Kinda like a nursemaid pack. Please release some challenging content at endgame.

N

SableShadow
04-22-2011, 09:10 AM
/subscribed

Kahless_of_Cannith
04-22-2011, 09:18 AM
Though there may be no epics announced, there will be end-game content. Not the same, but better than nothing.

From the letter:

"House Cannith is also responsible for the creation of the Warforged and we are working on a great new adventure pack which will show you some of this history. By popular request it will also include a new wilderness and raid for characters at the level cap!"

Gobbothegreen
04-22-2011, 09:29 AM
Agreed Nick, new epics are sorely needed and i hope they add some more.

Also i hope that new raid he talked about will be a challenge for high end players being atleast around maybe ToD elite for difficulty even on normal (altough i know that would never happen, to many people would complain and turbine wouldn't sell enough of that pack.). To complete it on elite i would expect somethign almost impossible to complete, but with something special at the end. So that you can feel that finishing it is an achievement in itself.

AZgreentea
04-22-2011, 09:32 AM
If I understand Fernandos two posts, they arent doing more Epics because it is still in the middle of a reboot. The changes being made to Epics in U9, aren't the end of the reboot. Let them finish making lvl 15-20 content so they can focus on solely on Epic for a few updates.

SableShadow
04-22-2011, 09:36 AM
If I understand Fernandos two posts, they arent doing more Epics because it is still in the middle of a reboot.

A year is a long time for a reboot.



Let them finish making lvl 15-20 content so they can focus on solely on Epic for a few updates.

Historically, they don't focus on endgame content for more than a single update. I find it difficult to believe that they would change their pattern without prodding.

phalaeo
04-22-2011, 09:45 AM
/signed

SiliconShadow
04-22-2011, 09:57 AM
Having read the letter I must say I'm not impressed. I have been supportive of the changes being made to epics in U9 and excited about the spellpass and somewhat interested in the crafting. I, and many others, were hoping this was setting the foundation for a bevy of new epic quests this year.

It sounds like this isn't going to be the case. Epic GH would keep us busy for a while maybe it's time to dust that off, spruce it up or do whatever u need to do to make it ready.

I'm actually disgusted at the lack of attention focused at the endgame. Level 16. Bleh. I get the sinking feeling that the update after that will be a level 20 release but will be aimed at those who have just recently capped. Kinda like a nursemaid pack. Please release some challenging content at endgame.

N

Well we know there are several more quests after this chain being released now in the pipeline which are level 17~ So I guess it is getting there, BUT 15~17 was in more need of content than any other level range, this has helped a lot.

I hope after this they will release some more epics, I would love that too.

Rdonaccount
04-22-2011, 09:58 AM
epic GH? /signed

epic orchard? /even more signed

epics that are actually more difficult than epic sands rather than less? /can't sign quickly enough

But really? after seeing some of your guild's recent accomplishments, I wonder what exactly would be a challenge for you. At some point, someone is too much of an outlier for the dev's to actually plan something difficult for them that wouldn't be completely impossible for everyone else.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't try though. Ideally they could find a way to plan far enough ahead to release something for the uber hardcores to hack at for a while, even if they don't expect the rest of us unwashed masses to complete it for a long time (if ever). Just not sure if that is something they can really pull off.

Phidius
04-22-2011, 09:59 AM
...To complete it on elite i would expect somethign almost impossible to complete, but with nothing special at the end. So that you can feel that finishing it is an achievement in itself.

Asking for extremely challenging content (virtually impossible to beat except for the best of the best) and wanting special rewards is a bad combination.

As long as the only way to get that +10 Uber Item of Game Winningness is to run the elite-only content, you will find that we lesser-geared and lesser-skilled players will complain about how it's not fair.

Unless you think that the majority of Turbine's income comes from the ultra-elite players who are currently bored with running the entire game on Elite and Epic...

What Turbine needs to do is to release a high-level pack (with a 12 man raid) that makes Elite Amrath look like Waterworks, and has similar rewards. Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough people who would buy the pack to make it worth their while.

Cyr
04-22-2011, 10:01 AM
/signed

Turbine just does not get it. There is not an ever ending supply of new players to replace the ones that leave because you continue to ignore end game and instead cater to the most casual of casual players...

Sweyn
04-22-2011, 10:03 AM
Please release some challenging content at endgame.

This

Shade
04-22-2011, 10:06 AM
I'm actually disgusted at the lack of attention focused at the endgame. Level 16. Bleh. I get the sinking feeling that the update after that will be a level 20 release but will be aimed at those who have just recently capped. Kinda like a nursemaid pack. Please release some challenging content at endgame.

N

U9 pack is lvl15. And very easy, soloable by ungeared level 12s.
U10 pack is level17. 4 new quests again no raid. Probably also very easy. I doubt even the U11 pack will be 20. Probably 19. Might have a raid, might not.

Fernando heard some people dont like epic, so this is the solution...

Power by our fans.. New fans only I guess.

AZgreentea
04-22-2011, 10:09 AM
Historically, they don't focus on endgame content for more than a single update. I find it difficult to believe that they would change their pattern without prodding.
True, but they wont get to the lvl 20 content until the last update this year, which is presumably Update 12, if they are doing just 4 updates this year. 4 updates this year means once a quarter, so in the Oct-Dec timeframe. (U9 was delayed by the snowstorms earlier this year, and the new crafting tech).

There is also the challenge quest to consider. That can go up to lvl 25, if its built like the CC event.

**EDIT What I guess I dont understand is:

Everyone was complaining there wasnt enough lvl 15+ conent, and now that the devs have finally gotten to that part of their development cycle, everyone wants them to drop it to make more Epic (lvl 20+) content? I want Turbine to take all the time they need to make Quality, interesting to play content, and I realize that takes time. If you want a game with a huge staff, and a high quest turnout rate that results in cookie cutter quests that is only focused on endgame content, then you are looking for WoW.

Vanquishedfo
04-22-2011, 10:11 AM
I really cant see any reason for them to release more epic content, until they actually make some that is worth playing for the entire population.

End game content shouldnt be seen as some uber challenge for a fraction of a percent of the population. I have always found it ironic how many sit here on the forums demanding new content with new challenge while preaching making the most twinked out, min/maxxed characters possible. If you want challenge in any MMO you dont find it by making the best of the best builds, you do it by making the most hated, gimped builds, and then still accomplishing what would be for the best of the best, a casual fun romp.

Super builds are for those who DONT WANT challenge. Its the way it works in every MMO I play. In city of heroes you want challenge you play a melee controller who doesnt depend on pets, or a katan super reflex scrapper with no self healing. In guild wars you play an elemental/warrior who uses a sword and closes.

Challenge is something we as players are suppose to find for ourselves. while having a fun baseline game that all can enjoy so it doesnt end up dieing off.

I always laugh at guys who claim to be skilled and after challenge on DDO after they link thier GS items at lvl 12 and saying how they will solo the elite velah while the rest of the party play support the glory mongering wowtard.

The reason I think they are not making more epic content, is they know at, its so under played, devoting any amount of resource to making more, until they can figure out how to make the current more enjoyable for all to play, would be grosly wasteful.

Ehllie
04-22-2011, 10:12 AM
/signed

Running TRs forever is NOT endgame.

Shade
04-22-2011, 10:14 AM
That can go up to lvl 25, if its built like the CC event.

Thats exactly the kind of thing most endgame players like myself do NOT want.

CC was very much so, casual only. Without any option for normal, hard or elite, forget epic. Just because it had levels over 20, didn't make it at all challenging.

Not interested in that. We want something actually challenging. The so called challenge system, sounds like a very casual player oriented thing.

Phidius
04-22-2011, 10:18 AM
...super Builds Are For Those Who Dont Want Challenge...

Qfft

Tarackian
04-22-2011, 10:28 AM
It's ok. I'm sure we'll have another event or two (my personal pet peeve) to help you take your mind off the lack of content produced.

Qezuzu
04-22-2011, 10:29 AM
Epics aren't endgame. They're a grind. The reboot should make more methods of doing them more viable, other than just hold/beat, hold/beat, hold/beat, kill boss, loot; and make it more challenging (with higher saves). I personally am pshyced to assassinate in epics.

People said they wanted +16 content. Turbine is now doing +16 content. Now they need to do epics... The letter said there was going to be an endgame raid. Stop dooming about "OMG NU EPICS COMING? TURBINE Y U SO NO CARE FOR THE TOP OF THE TOP PLEYERS?" Would turning current packs into epic be any better than current epics? Hold/beat, hold/beat, hold/beat, kills boss, loot? How challenging is that? Right now there's only a few challenging epics. Just wait for the epics to be redone, then more epics will be released.

Seriously. How many posts were made wanting new epics? How many were made wanting new +16 content? Turbine doesn't pander to just you. The top of the top players are not the majority, and everyone would benefit from new +16 packs.

If you want a challenge, do epics with no healer or CCer, just using self sufficiency and whatever other tactics you can think of. And not carnival level, either. And know that if you trick out your toon with epic gear, greensteel and run epics with an optimal party, of course it's going to be easy.

Shade
04-22-2011, 10:33 AM
Would turning current packs into epic be any better than current epics?
The point is, we enjoy the current epics. We'd like more.

You don't, but you don't need every last ounce of the developers attention.

ArkoHighStar
04-22-2011, 10:34 AM
I am of 2 minds on this issue

1. I understand the request for more epic by end game players as nit everyone wants to run the TR train, and epics provide a high level challenge


2. A high level raid however serves a much large audience than epic content as it can be played by lvl 17-20 characters.


That being said I think its fairly obvious that the raid is either going to be U11 or 12(lets hope to god that its U11). But all that aside the raid needs to have the following features

1. Raid should be lvl 21 on normal like titan was lvl 11 when cap was 10. We already have 3 raids at lvl 18-20, we need something a little beyond if there will be no epics

2.loot should be lvl 20 epic quality. I see nothing wrong with having lvl 17's unable to use the items till lvl 20
3. Have it give epic raid tokens on elite
4. have it drop +5 tomes on elite


So in summation the raid on normal needs to be a challenge for regular players but have the elite option really be a challenge for those craving the epic mindset

Chai
04-22-2011, 10:35 AM
Thats exactly the kind of thing most endgame players like myself do NOT want.

CC was very much so, casual only. Without any option for normal, hard or elite, forget epic. Just because it had levels over 20, didn't make it at all challenging.

Not interested in that. We want something actually challenging. The so called challenge system, sounds like a very casual player oriented thing.

I dont so much dislike the "challenge system" per se, but I do not believe the quest level on the door is always directly related to the higher level and higher difficulty quests being more difficult.

The issue here of course is that the elite players are not the majority, so if they make content that challenges elite players, it will likely be too much for the average player, who is the cash cow of the MMO industry, DDO included.

Their challenge system kind of mimics what you are asking for with epic tiers of casual normal hard and elite, where level 21 could be epic casual and level 25 epic elite, however level 25 in the cove example is not challenging enough for a player in your shoes to be considered an elite challenge. Maybe it will be for other things in the future, maybe it will not, and still be easy for most level 20s to get through.

xTethx
04-22-2011, 10:40 AM
It doesnt have to epic per se. Just release 5 or 6 new lvl 21-22 "LONG" quests, an explorer area where you have to be 19 or higher to enter, a new raid (maybe 2) lvl 23-24 and thats it.

Qezuzu
04-22-2011, 10:41 AM
The point is, we enjoy the current epics. We'd like more.

You don't, but you don't need every last ounce of the developers attention.

Where did I say I didn't like current epics?

I run epic devil assault almost daily, on both a DPS and a CC mage. I commonly do all 4 fens quests. I do OOB and CoF every so often, and Carnival, Sentinels, and VoN commonly. I'm in a guild, which is ranked 4th on my server, that does eDragon, DQ and Chrono twice a week. But I think the tweak to epic trash is a great improvement.

Turbine is redoing epics, so they can't be diverting every ounce of resources to people who want +16 content (a group which is more populous than people who run everything on elite and epic, have +3 capped TRed and epicly geared characters, and who want more epics because they want a "challenge"). And they're releasing a new high level raid.

Nick_RC
04-22-2011, 10:42 AM
Epics aren't endgame. They're a grind. The reboot should make more methods of doing them more viable, other than just hold/beat, hold/beat, hold/beat, kill boss, loot; and make it more challenging (with higher saves). I personally am pshyced to assassinate in epics.

People said they wanted +16 content. Turbine is now doing +16 content. Now they need to do epics... The letter said there was going to be an endgame raid. Stop dooming about "OMG NU EPICS COMING? TURBINE Y U SO NO CARE FOR THE TOP OF THE TOP PLEYERS?" Would turning current packs into epic be any better than current epics? Hold/beat, hold/beat, hold/beat, kills boss, loot? How challenging is that? Right now there's only a few challenging epics. Just wait for the epics to be redone, then more epics will be released.

Seriously. How many posts were made wanting new epics? How many were made wanting new +16 content? Turbine doesn't pander to just you. The top of the top players are not the majority, and everyone would benefit from new +16 packs.

If you want a challenge, do epics with no healer or CCer, just using self sufficiency and whatever other tactics you can think of. And not carnival level, either. And know that if you trick out your toon with epic gear, greensteel and run epics with an optimal party, of course it's going to be easy.

I DO do epics shortman, in some cases very shortman. Im not just talking the talk I enjoy a challenge. I dont really run P or D epics because they are weaksauce. I know many others who feel the same. I was quite happy for the next update to be 15+. Its when fernando says that we wont get epics for a year basically that I start to get annoyed.

N

Qezuzu
04-22-2011, 10:45 AM
I DO do epics shortman, in some cases very shortman. Im not just talking the talk I enjoy a challenge. I dont really run P or D epics because they are weaksauce. I know many others who feel the same. I was quite happy for the next update to be 15+. Its when fernando says that we wont get epics for a year basically that I start to get annoyed.

N

I agree that we should get more epics, but I don't think it should be super high on turbine's to-do list.

People who can do the harder epics like you do are simply not the majority, not even close. People have wanted a new end-game raid, a new class, and +16 content for a good time now, so that's what they're doing.

PopeJual
04-22-2011, 10:45 AM
I DO do epics shortman, in some cases very shortman. Im not just talking the talk I enjoy a challenge. I dont really run P or D epics because they are weaksauce. I know many others who feel the same. I was quite happy for the next update to be 15+. Its when fernando says that we wont get epics for a year basically that I start to get annoyed.

N

Yeah, if you really liked challenges, you'd go off and do crazy stuff like running ToD on Elite with just 3 other friends in the group just because it's fun.

Oh, wait. :)

Nick_RC
04-22-2011, 10:48 AM
I agree that we should get more epics, but I don't think it should be super high on turbine's to-do list.

As opposed too? more low level content? There is soooo much low level content in the game...

Just saw ur edit. Id be happy with a lvl 21 raid...but what I really dislike is being told we wont have epics for a year.

Memek
04-22-2011, 10:52 AM
The CC event quest must have had a bug in the scaling... Damage done didnt seemed to scale up at all, and the monsters did the same damage on level 13 as on level 25.

That CC's difficulty scaling had problems doesnt mean that all "challenge style" quests have to be ridiculously easy on 25.

With open ended high scores (so you dont have to sit around for a few minutes after you have reached the objective) and a proper difficulty, those could add a lot of replay value.

Cyr
04-22-2011, 10:53 AM
Some quick comparisons here based upon the information we have at this point...

Updates last year 6
Updates this year (if we assume they keep the schedule) 4
A reduction of one/third

Content made to be moderately or more challenging for the end game...
Last year 2 raids, 12 quests
This year (assuming one pack of the same size as the previous packs since EU released) 1 raid, 4 quests.
A reduction by a half for raids and two thirds for quests. This is the big number that players are talking about in this thread.

Brand new content made for end game (ie nothing that had been previously released and just had an epic mode put into it after the fact)....
Last year 1 raid (epic chrono), 8 quests
This year (same assumptions as above) 1 raid, 4 quests
Not as bad here treading water with raids and only a 50% reduction in quests.

Brand new quests/raids (regardless of level and with the 4 updates in 2011/4 quests an update)...
Last Year 1 Raid, 19 (think I got them all) quests
This Year 1 Raid, 12 quests
Getting better here with no loss in raids and less then a 50% loss in quests...

New classes or races
Last Year - 2
This Year (assuming just the one Fernando talked about) - 1
50% reduction here...this could be squishy Turbine is pretty tight lipped about these

Anything else...who knows to much in flux atm. Should be interesting to see how wrong the above assumptions are at the start of next year.

Qezuzu
04-22-2011, 10:53 AM
As opposed too? more low level content? There is soooo much low level content in the game...

Just saw ur edit. Id be happy with a lvl 21 raid...but what I really dislike is being told we wont have epics for a year.

No epics for a year seems too long, yah.

Though after the epic trash tweak, and the changes to vorpal, epics feel more like just a tier above elite amrath but still challenging. A high level raid probably means high level sub quests, let's hope it's not on par with dreaming dark, but a bit above amrath. About as challenging as epics but without the label and the little purple token.

ArkoHighStar
04-22-2011, 11:12 AM
As opposed too? more low level content? There is soooo much low level content in the game...

Just saw ur edit. Id be happy with a lvl 21 raid...but what I really dislike is being told we wont have epics for a year.

what would you quantify new lvl 17-20 content then? which is what is likely to be U10-12.

Nick you have to realize by now that the people who 2 man epic like you are a very small percentage of the overall player base now. I agree from lvl 1-14 the game has more content than even a double TR needs to lvl easily. But it is no secret that Turbine has stated that their goal this year is to finish the lvl progression, and they said this 2 months ago.

Al lvl 20 raid is what many have asked for and it is what will satisfy the largest number of players. But Turbine must be conscious of that fact that without a lvl cap increase Epic content will start to see more players as they progress through the lvl 20 content and no longer find challenge in it. This will still be a minority of players but as overall numbers grow the minority grows as well, and Turbine will be making a major mistake if they ignore it for too long.

jwdaniels
04-22-2011, 11:21 AM
They are in the process of rebooting epics - let's let them figure out how epics are going to work going forward before the take the time to create new ones. Working on new epic content that never sees the light of day because they change systems when the new content is 90% complete does nothing but waste time that the developers could be spending doing something else.

Irinis
04-22-2011, 11:27 AM
A year is a long time for a reboot.

Historically, they don't focus on endgame content for more than a single update. I find it difficult to believe that they would change their pattern without prodding.

Well they can consider this some more prodding. :D

Nick_RC
04-22-2011, 11:39 AM
what would you quantify new lvl 17-20 content then? which is what is likely to be U10-12.

Nick you have to realize by now that the people who 2 man epic like you are a very small percentage of the overall player base now. I agree from lvl 1-14 the game has more content than even a double TR needs to lvl easily. But it is no secret that Turbine has stated that their goal this year is to finish the lvl progression, and they said this 2 months ago.

Al lvl 20 raid is what many have asked for and it is what will satisfy the largest number of players. But Turbine must be conscious of that fact that without a lvl cap increase Epic content will start to see more players as they progress through the lvl 20 content and no longer find challenge in it. This will still be a minority of players but as overall numbers grow the minority grows as well, and Turbine will be making a major mistake if they ignore it for too long.

Arko I dont know what me two manning epics has anything to do with what ur talking about. I consider 17-19 lvls to be low levels. Its not cap. 20 and above is high level. And I also consider being told that we will get no new epics for a year unacceptable.

Im all for a level 20 raid. (Would prefer it be 21+)But what is wrong with asking for some nice epic quests as well.

Sirea
04-22-2011, 11:41 AM
I would rather they complete the epic reboot and hopefully do it properly before adding more epic quests. Bring on the non-epic high-level content! We need more XP at that level.

jwdaniels
04-22-2011, 11:45 AM
Arko I dont know what me two manning epics has anything to do with what ur talking about. I consider 17-19 lvls to be low levels. Its not cap. 20 and above is high level. And I also consider being told that we will get no new epics for a year unacceptable.

Im all for a level 20 raid. (Would prefer it be 21+)But what is wrong with asking for some nice epic quests as well.

I think that's exactly what he's talking about - levels 17 - 19 aren't really low levels at all.

Qezuzu
04-22-2011, 11:48 AM
I would rather they complete the epic reboot and hopefully do it properly before adding more epic quests. Bring on the non-epic high-level content! We need more XP at that level.

Agreed.

Epics need to be reworked before more are released. Trash given higher saves, lower HP, loss of death immunity is already done. Maybe add higher tiers of epics (lvl27?) that makes it more challenging.

Problem is, higher saves/AC/HP/SR/Damage is too boring. I'm not sure how they can make epics more challenging other than just making the mobs harder. Though I think an idea would be a tactician melee mob, with red name immunities, that gives a large "leadership" bonus to surrounding trash, increasing saves, AC and damage as well as decreasing the duration on mind effecting spells, especially OID.

Nick_RC
04-22-2011, 11:49 AM
I think that's exactly what he's talking about - levels 17 - 19 aren't really low levels at all.

Difference of opinions then. I look at IQ and Dreaming dark and amrath and that too me is low level. I certainly dont play them at cap as my endgame content. I flag amrath and do on elite for yugo favor but rarely touch them again unless im helping a friend. I do dreaming dark if i need to upgrade something for a tr. More 17-19 content will likely fall into this category.

N

Edit: apologies when I say 'low level' I mean stuff I level up on. Theres stuff I/people run at cap and then theres low level.

ArkoHighStar
04-22-2011, 11:50 AM
Arko I dont know what me two manning epics has anything to do with what ur talking about. I consider 17-19 lvls to be low levels. Its not cap. 20 and above is high level. And I also consider being told that we will get no new epics for a year unacceptable.

Im all for a level 20 raid. (Would prefer it be 21+)But what is wrong with asking for some nice epic quests as well.

There is nothing wrong with asking for it.and I agree as I stated in my previous post the raid should be lvl 21 on normal like Titan was lvl 11 when cap was 10.

But lvl 17-20 content is not low level, it is high level and Epic is not something the majority of players run, its just not. Turbine has only so many resources, and it appears that they have decided to use those resources to finish of the lvl range of quests and start the epic reboot, and then do new epic content, while this sucks for those of us that want to do epic level content, I am sure they measured the number of players actively doing epics vs the number of players lvling to twenty via TR or newer players and we lost by large margin.

Cyr
04-22-2011, 11:51 AM
I think that's exactly what he's talking about - levels 17 - 19 aren't really low levels at all.

No, but neither are they end game content.

End game content is content you can and do run over and over again at end game (ie when you are capped). Leveling content by defiinition is not as challanging and if it provides comparable rewards to end game content has a broken incentive structure tied to it (you shouldn't reward people equally or more for doing something easier).

Qezuzu
04-22-2011, 11:52 AM
Difference of opinions then. I look at IQ and Dreaming dark and amrath and that too me is low level. I certainly dont play them at cap as my endgame content. I flag amrath and do on elite for yugo favor but rarely touch them again unless im helping a friend. I do dreaming dark if i need to upgrade something for a tr. More 17-19 content will likely fall into this category.

N

Edit: apologies when I say 'low level' I mean stuff I level up on. Theres stuff I/people run at cap and then theres low level.

Most players find elite amrath to be challenging. After vorpals are nerfed, even moreso.

ArkoHighStar
04-22-2011, 11:58 AM
No, but neither are they end game content.

End game content is content you can and do run over and over again at end game (ie when you are capped). Leveling content by defiinition is not as challanging and if it provides comparable rewards to end game content has a broken incentive structure tied to it (you shouldn't reward people equally or more for doing something easier).

I Think the differentiation needs to be something lke this

High level content lvl 16-20

Endgame content
raids lvl 19 and up
quests lvl 20 and up
and anything epic
Also as was stated loot deriving form these quests should be of a quality that it benefits players playing at endgame.

So from that perspective minus epics the endgame content is sorely lacking as we have 1 lvl 20 raid and 1 lvl 20 quest. U11 and 12 if not epic then needs to be lvl 20-21 content . In this I agree with Nick we have enough casual lvl 18-20 content with IQ and Dreaming Dark, if no epics then the content needs to be challenging for endgame players and much more in the vein of Amrath difficulty but lvl 20-21 with corresponding loot.

Cyr
04-22-2011, 11:59 AM
I am sure they measured the number of players actively doing epics vs the number of players lvling to twenty via TR or newer players and we lost by large margin.

Couple of things which make this sort of a measurement pretty useless...

a) Slow production of end game content drives end game players into playing more TR's.

b) Even super casual new players hit the cap eventually.

c) F2P combined with the content crisis both destroyed the vet population and gave a big influx of new players. Of course, the numbers atm would indicate that there are lots of new players now...see (b).

d) Turbine keeps hinting that they are going to mess around with epic loot drops making them better. This keeps some out of epics for the moment, because they don't want to feel like they were shafted by running stuff with lesser rewards.

e) There is not an infinite stream of new players coming into the game. That well dries up eventually and then things start looking alot more like what they looked like during the first half of DDO's history...assuming people stick around with the game with what little end game content comes out to even transfer into being vets.

Cyr
04-22-2011, 12:02 PM
I Think the differentiation needs to be something lke this
...edited for brevity

Agreed on almost everything you said here. My concern is that it will the current smallish (and easy) 15 pack, level 17 pack (easy also at level), level 18 pack (....), and finally a level 19 pack with a level 20 raid that is more balanced for brand new level 20 toons. I am basing this speculation only upon what Turbine has produced in the past year and half and their statements that do not jive with reality like 'epics are for the best of the best' when it comes to how challenging content should be and needs to be.

Nick_RC
04-22-2011, 12:04 PM
U11 and 12 if not epic then needs to be lvl 20-21 content . In this I agree with Nick we have enough casual lvl 18-20 content with IQ and Dreaming Dark, if no epics then the content needs to be challenging for endgame players and much more in the vein of Amrath difficulty but lvl 20-21 with corresponding loot.

I can go with this. 20 - 21 content. May as well give us tokens and call it epic then.

N

Nick_RC
04-22-2011, 12:06 PM
Agreed on almost everything you said here. My concern is that it will the current smallish (and easy) 15 pack, level 17 pack (easy also at level), level 18 pack (....), and finally a level 19 pack with a level 20 raid that is more balanced for brand new level 20 toons. I am basing this speculation only upon what Turbine has produced in the past year and half and their statements that do not jive with reality like 'epics are for the best of the best' when it comes to how challenging content should be and needs to be.

Aye this is my concern as well. We will get more level 20 stuff that is like I said in the OP a nursemaid pack to usher in new level 20s. Yawn.

N

ArkoHighStar
04-22-2011, 12:09 PM
Aye this is my concern as well. We will get more level 20 stuff that is like I said in the OP a nursemaid pack to usher in new level 20s. Yawn.

N

I fear this too. If the content is like more like IQ and less like Amrath, then it will hurt. If they have to do some of this type of content then at least make one mod easy stuff and one mod harder.

Chai
04-22-2011, 12:16 PM
No, but neither are they end game content.

End game content is content you can and do run over and over again at end game (ie when you are capped). Leveling content by defiinition is not as challanging and if it provides comparable rewards to end game content has a broken incentive structure tied to it (you shouldn't reward people equally or more for doing something easier).

Metagaming...

The end game doesnt start out easier but it sure does end up easier after the 60th time you have run the same quest, as you realize that the last 55 times you ran it you have used well rehearsed tactics that work which you learned running it the first five times. No matter how hard they make epics, we will always find the easiest ways to run them eventually and fall into this same routine.


Agreed on almost everything you said here. My concern is that it will the current smallish (and easy) 15 pack, level 17 pack (easy also at level), level 18 pack (....), and finally a level 19 pack with a level 20 raid that is more balanced for brand new level 20 toons. I am basing this speculation only upon what Turbine has produced in the past year and half and their statements that do not jive with reality like 'epics are for the best of the best' when it comes to how challenging content should be and needs to be.

The best of the best were the ones that were groaning about the way epic content played, when it was that tough to beat. Did we forget about rogues moaning about how they had to gimp their toon into oblivion just to get traps? The end result of that is 8 int 8 wis assassins that can get all epic traps. Best of the best? LOL. Did we forget about the furious complaining about to-hit issues? The end result of that was ungeared level 20 melee no longer having to-hit issues save for some boss fights. Did we forget about the sheer level of complaints regarding high end DC requirements epics used to have where casters practically had to be a specialist in order to land spells even 50% of the time? The end result of that was the mass hold / stun > crit fest that epics became after their first nerf.

Epics used to be for the best of the best, and those were the players doing the most complaining when this was the case. This is a large trend in this game, where players complain about something being too hard, and when the adjustment is made, it becomes too easy. This of course began when people complained about perminent curses, stat debuffs, and XP debt. - and this trend continues today.

stoolcannon
04-22-2011, 12:18 PM
Having read the letter I must say I'm not impressed. I have been supportive of the changes being made to epics in U9 and excited about the spellpass and somewhat interested in the crafting. I, and many others, were hoping this was setting the foundation for a bevy of new epic quests this year.

It sounds like this isn't going to be the case. Epic GH would keep us busy for a while maybe it's time to dust that off, spruce it up or do whatever u need to do to make it ready.

I'm actually disgusted at the lack of attention focused at the endgame. Level 16. Bleh. I get the sinking feeling that the update after that will be a level 20 release but will be aimed at those who have just recently capped. Kinda like a nursemaid pack. Please release some challenging content at endgame.

N

This, this and more this. Most everyone I know spends a good majority of their time at end game and the fact that there is yet again no new content coming out in that range is a huge disappointment.

Combine no new content with HORRIFIC drop rate and grind and you've got a recipe for making me leave the game.

Cyr
04-22-2011, 12:20 PM
Metagaming...

The end game doesnt start out easier but it sure does end up easier after the 60th time you have run the same quest, as you realize that the last 55 times you ran it you have used well rehearsed tactics that work which you learned running it the first five times. No matter how hard they make epics, we will always find the easiest ways to run them eventually and fall into this same routine.

Which is all irrelevent to the discussion. If something starts easier and gets easier it's still easier then the thing that starts harder and gets less hard.

Chai
04-22-2011, 12:34 PM
Which is all irrelevent to the discussion. If something starts easier and gets easier it's still easier then the thing that starts harder and gets less hard.

Its not irrelevant because you disagree. No matter how hard Turbine makes those quests, metagaming and routine grinding will make them easy. You need to see this through the eyes of a new player who has never played those quests in order to agree, and you were that player once, just as we all were. Its easier for you because you know this stuff inside and out.

Epics were for the best of the best, and it was the collective negative feedback of those people who felt it was too hard that resulted in epics being scaled down so that any group of level 20s who has any understanding of tactics whatsoever can farm them.

People continue to state that they want epics to be for the best of the best, right up to and until it is too hard for THEM. Then they kick and scream that they need to be made easier.

Something about not being able to have our cake and eat it too comes to mind.

SableShadow
04-22-2011, 12:44 PM
The best of the best were the ones that were groaning about the way epic content played, when it was that tough to beat. Did we forget about rogues moaning about how they had to gimp their toon into oblivion just to get traps? The end result of that is 8 int 8 wis assassins that can get all epic traps. Best of the best? LOL. Did we forget about the furious complaining about to-hit issues? The end result of that was ungeared level 20 melee no longer having to-hit issues save for some boss fights. Did we forget about the sheer level of complaints regarding high end DC requirements epics used to have where casters practically had to be a specialist in order to land spells even 50% of the time? The end result of that was the mass hold / stun > crit fest that epics became after their first nerf.

You are confusing "must specialize" with "best of the best"...everything you outline are problems with the d20 mechanics, in which cranking one stat up into the stratosphere to challenge one particular brand of min/max crushes anything that can't reach the same heights. This is particularly true of "pass-fail" checks.

Naturally, if your particular "specialty" is the fun one, you don't see this. ;)



Epics used to be for the best of the best, and those were the players doing the most complaining when this was the case. This is a large trend in this game, where players complain about something being too hard, and when the adjustment is made, it becomes too easy.

Epics got nerfed from Llama to Live when they first came out (twice iirc); they then got buffed across the board without regard to the actual impact on game play.

Did we suddenly just stop running them? No, we just stopped running the ones that became extremely time consuming (e.g. Chains)



This of course began when people complained about perminent curses, stat debuffs, and XP debt. - and this trend continues today.

You're painting with a particularly broad brush; I daresay the people in this thread discussing epics were not in favor of those changes. I certainly wasn't.


No matter how hard Turbine makes those quests, metagaming and routine grinding will make them easy.

I agree; this always happens. Doesn't mean Turbine shouldn't try to make them somewhat challenging at release, tho, does it?

PopeJual
04-22-2011, 12:49 PM
People continue to state that they want epics to be for the best of the best, right up to and until it is too hard for THEM. Then they kick and scream that they need to be made easier.

You say things like this often. It's almost as if you think that all of the people who play DDO have the same exact opinion.

Has it occured to you that the people who want epics to be for the best of the best (hence the name "epic" might be different people than the ones who want epics made easier?

Chai
04-22-2011, 01:01 PM
You are confusing "must specialize" with "best of the best"...everything you outline are problems with the d20 mechanics, in which cranking one stat up into the stratosphere to challenge one particular brand of min/max crushes anything that can't reach the same heights. This is particularly true of "pass-fail" checks.

I am not confusing anything. Only the best of the best used to be able to run epics. That turned into a mass hold crit fest that anyone with a pair of heavy picks could partake in. I see the pattern of providing feedback not wanting just anybody to be able to run this stuff, until their vision of making it for the "best of the best" includes making it too inconvenient for those providing the feedback, then it needs a nerf. LOL.


Naturally, if your particular "specialty" is the fun one, you don't see this. ;)

Even something you thought was fun can be mind numbingly boring and easy after 60 runs.


Epics got nerfed from Llama to Live when they first came out (twice iirc); they then got buffed across the board without regard to the actual impact on game play.

Then nerfed again when people complained that their 8 int assassin cant get the traps, their 40 DC wizard cant hold, and their 52 str melee cant hit on a 2.


Did we suddenly just stop running them? No, we just stopped running the ones that became extremely time consuming.

We ran to the boards and complained that it was too much of a grind


You're painting with a particularly broad brush; I daresay the people in this thread discussing epics were not in favor of those changes. I certainly wasn't.

Nope, I am telling the story as it happened. Be careful when making statements that you want content that can only be run by the best of the best, because the current trend round these parts is to provide just that feedback right up to and until its too hard for those providing it, then they ask for nerfs.

The current trend in asking for nerfs is stuff that was deemed too hard in the past now becomes so easy that anyone can run it. The irony here is that people are talking about Turbine failing to live up to the expectation of this content, when it was the collective feedback of the players that resulted in the nerfing of that content in the first place when it was delivered.


I agree; this always happens. Doesn't mean Turbine shouldn't try to make them somewhat challenging at release, tho, does it?

I bet many of the epics are thus, for people who have not run them yet and have to figure out what to hit / DC / useful spells / tactics are etc. We cant complain stuff is too easy when we have run it 75 times and can do it in our sleep, unless it was that easy in the beginning. The sheer volume of people screaming for nerfs in the beginning tells me it was not that easy.

grodon9999
04-22-2011, 01:16 PM
Metagaming...

The end game doesnt start out easier but it sure does end up easier after the 60th time you have run the same quest, as you realize that the last 55 times you ran it you have used well rehearsed tactics that work which you learned running it the first five times. No matter how hard they make epics, we will always find the easiest ways to run them eventually and fall into this same routine.



The best of the best were the ones that were groaning about the way epic content played, when it was that tough to beat. Did we forget about rogues moaning about how they had to gimp their toon into oblivion just to get traps? The end result of that is 8 int 8 wis assassins that can get all epic traps. Best of the best? LOL. Did we forget about the furious complaining about to-hit issues? The end result of that was ungeared level 20 melee no longer having to-hit issues save for some boss fights. Did we forget about the sheer level of complaints regarding high end DC requirements epics used to have where casters practically had to be a specialist in order to land spells even 50% of the time? The end result of that was the mass hold / stun > crit fest that epics became after their first nerf.

Epics used to be for the best of the best, and those were the players doing the most complaining when this was the case. This is a large trend in this game, where players complain about something being too hard, and when the adjustment is made, it becomes too easy. This of course began when people complained about perminent curses, stat debuffs, and XP debt. - and this trend continues today.


Turbine's problem was making epic the only end-game. They should have release level 20 content with a N/H/E settings for people of various gear/skill levels and left epic as a separate animal.

As long as well have access to "un-limted" stacks of SP pots (and other consumables for whiners like Hexx) will we truly be challenged?

LeLoric
04-22-2011, 01:29 PM
I am kinda torn here. Epics are fun to me, they compromise 90% of my playtime at end game. Not having any new ones for a while was a sad revelation.

That being said if they do some non-epic endgame contetn right I think it could be great for the game. Now that they have a true tanking mechanism in the game I think they can design some really cool encounters that really take advantage of this. They could use this to show off that kind of play and also reconsider how high ac/dr threat tanking could also be reworked into epic to give more options there.

The problems I see here are twofold. Endgame content must both challenge us and provide tangible rewards.

Challenge must be there or people will blow through it on the first day. I'd love to see an endgame raid that takes some time to figure out and be able to beat. Not just have the first guild to beat it be the first ones with 12 people on and flagged for the encounter.

However challenge only lasts so long as people figure out optimal ways to do it. This is where the tangible rewards come in. The loot here must be worthy of endgame characters and as such must compete with epic gear. Providing useable items that are competitive with epic gear without epic type stats may be extremely hard to do.

Chai
04-22-2011, 01:36 PM
Turbine's problem was making epic the only end-game. They should have release level 20 content with a N/H/E settings for people of various gear/skill levels and left epic as a separate animal.

As long as well have access to "un-limted" stacks of SP pots (and other consumables for whiners like Hexx) will we truly be challenged?

So instead of asking for more epics we should be asking for a new high end raid.

Metagaming makes it alot easier than SP pots does. The first 12 people who walked into TOD likely had a tougher time even with SP pots than many of us today would have without them.

Want a real challenge? I say make a raid that limits the ability to metagame it. Make the boss have 100 crazy abilities it can have, and each time it pulls 5 random ones to use on the players, for 30 seconds at a time, then it pulls another 5 etc. Dispell magic can be one of the abilities, so peopel cant rely on buffs as a crutch that makes them immune to everything they know it does through metagaming. Also make it so the boss attacks healers if the healer is propping the tank up too much. Mana pots, pfft. If your healer having unlimited mana potions is limiting your challenge, elite Horoth can get ticked off at the fact that this healer keeps interfering in his plans to crush your tank, jump over there, and put him over his knee. But no, the general of the entire shavarath army has been duped into staring at the wall yet again.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when a party walks into shroud part three to see actual logic puzzles waiting for them rather than the same pattern basic magic square puzzles...Routine run? Nope, LOL. It would also be awesome when they get to part 4 and a balor jumps down instead of a pit fiend. Similar stats but different weapons to break the DR. Half way through the fight the balor starts tossing ice and lightning spells at random targets....

You wouldnt be able to blue bottle your way through this, I assure you. Metagaming is the crutch in an MMO, not mana potions and consumables.

SableShadow
04-22-2011, 01:48 PM
<sound and fury>

What's your core point? That people want to be challenged, but not overwhelmed, and this varies greatly from person to person? :confused:

Game Design 101?


The first 12 people who walked into TOD likely had a tougher time even with SP pots than many of us today would have without them.


True, we did. :)

Chai
04-22-2011, 01:59 PM
What's your core point? That people want to be challenged, but not overwhelmed, and this varies greatly from person to person? :confused:

...varies greatly from person to person due to the level of metagaming from person to person. The people bantering that this stuff is too easy thought it was challenging when it first came out, or they wouldnt have called for nerfs of the content back then, and now that they have run the content ad nauseum, its easy for them.

Anyhow, if Turbine wanted to make a quest / raid that is nigh impossible to completely metagame, now is the time, as the stage is set - with the chaos themed stuff slated for release and all...

grodon9999
04-22-2011, 02:05 PM
Metagaming is the crutch in an MMO, not mana potions and consumables.

Both are crutches. But metagaming is just inevitable in a grind-based game.

Cetus
04-22-2011, 02:06 PM
I agree with Nick entirely here, no epic content for a dang year is pure garbage. Every player will eventually seek to run endgame content- except we have no real endgame. Carnival and Sentinels aren't worthy of being called epic. We had Sands and Von's Epic'ed for so long now, that it has become as repetitive as running the shroud. Running EFENS and EDA every day is all we have to work with today- even running that is mostly to just get 1 or 2 pieces- not because its enjoyable or anywhere near a challenge

This lower level content push needs to STOP. We don't need low level content. Sure, you guys release level 16 and 17 content- that will help TR'ing, which is always nice- but thats not what the discussion is about here. Endgame content is level 20+, whether its a raid, or epic. We have nothing to do in this game, Nicks insane 2 man echronos are awesome and provide a challenge, but its not a practical thing to rely on given the willingness of most people to spend the resources.

We need a practical, CHALLENGE. We need more epic content to pursue- that would motvate us and start aggravating us that we can't beat it. I want an enemy I actully fear, I run in blind at anything I fight these days taking for granted the fact it'll get obliterated.


Especially with cutting epics hitpoints in half on wednesday, any quest we touch will be like putting it in a blender.

Cet

SableShadow
04-22-2011, 02:16 PM
...varies greatly from person to person due to the level of metagaming from person to person.

Nonsense. Challenge varies from person to person because it varies from person to person. For some people, two or three raid failures is too many. These people will not be the first ones to complete a raid.

The amount of challenge a person desires to "have fun" has nothing to do with metagaming.

I agree that if you are a heavy min/maxer, it becomes extremely difficult to challenge you without essentially destroying those who (for whatever reason) don't min/max the same way...I have plenty of examples from game mastering PnP ("No, that character is *not* coming into *my* campaign with the rest of my players ... roll something else.")



The people bantering that this stuff is too easy thought it was challenging when it first came out, or they wouldnt have called for nerfs of the content back then, and now that they have run the content ad nauseum, its easy for them.

You are, again, tossing everyone into the same bucket. This does not help a discussion progress.



Anyhow, if Turbine wanted to make a quest / raid that is nigh impossible to completely metagame, now is the time, as the stage is set - with the chaos themed stuff slated for release and all...

You might as well just have the DM roll on the Wandering Damage Table. :)

AZgreentea
04-22-2011, 02:29 PM
Before I continue, I just want to say I am impressed this thread hasnt degraded into a flame fest and gotten shut down. Passions are a little high, but people are being far more civil than I expected. :D

The way I see it, Turbine is delivering on the promise on new lvl 1-20 content they made in 2010. It is still important for the player base to have lots of options to reach endgame, both financially for Turbine and for the actual players.

A year is a little long to wait for new Epic content. But isnt lvl 20 content also endgame content? Its content at the end of the game, right? A year is a long time to wait, but Epic is also still broken. Some of the posts that say they want more Epic content also point to the flaws with the current Epic system. What if it will take Turbine this whole year to rebuild Epic content to be truly viable endgame material? I would rather they took the year to build the quality, than wait for them to put something together they will have to rip apart and rebuild later. I also dont want them to postpone any content they have coming down the pipe, turning House Cannith and new lvl 20 content into the new Druids.

SableShadow
04-22-2011, 02:33 PM
Before I continue, I just want to say I am impressed this thread hasnt degraded into a flame fest and gotten shut down. Passions are a little high, but people are being far more civil than I expected. :D


I haven't gotten to Nick's refusal to wear pants yet. Oh, just you wait! :mad:

Cetus
04-22-2011, 02:35 PM
Before I continue, I just want to say I am impressed this thread hasnt degraded into a flame fest and gotten shut down. Passions are a little high, but people are being far more civil than I expected. :D

The way I see it, Turbine is delivering on the promise on new lvl 1-20 content they made in 2010. It is still important for the player base to have lots of options to reach endgame, both financially for Turbine and for the actual players.

A year is a little long to wait for new Epic content. But isnt lvl 20 content also endgame content? Its content at the end of the game, right? A year is a long time to wait, but Epic is also still broken. Some of the posts that say they want more Epic content also point to the flaws with the current Epic system. What if it will take Turbine this whole year to rebuild Epic content to be truly viable endgame material? I would rather they took the year to build the quality, than wait for them to put something together they will have to rip apart and rebuild later. I also dont want them to postpone any content they have coming down the pipe, turning House Cannith and new lvl 20 content into the new Druids.


Lets put it this way, I'll suck it up and wait the year only if ALL further focus and resources are put towards the expansion of the end game. I mean, successive promotions of ALL major adventure packs to epic mode, Finishing up the Prestige classes of every class, installment of a new engine that would be compatible with the release of druid, inclusion of epic levels and content that challenges that power. If THIS becomes the main focus after the low level content garbage is over. I'll be ecstatic.

AZgreentea
04-22-2011, 02:39 PM
Lets put it this way, I'll suck it up and wait the year only if ALL further focus and resources are put towards the expansion of the end game. I mean, successive promotions of ALL major adventure packs to epic mode, Finishing up the Prestige classes of every class, installment of a new engine that would be compatible with the release of druid, inclusion of epic levels and content that challenges that power. If THIS becomes the main focus after the low level content garbage is over. I'll be ecstatic.
To be honest, I dont know what else Turbine would do once they reach lvl 20 content later this year. I mean, the only other thing they could do was start all over again back at lvl 1, right? I think the end of 2011 into 2012 will see a focus on the endgame and the missing class/race/prestige content in DDO. After that was done, DDO would be a fairly complete and (hopefully) well rounded game.

Thats assuming the Mayans were wrong. :eek:

Cyr
04-22-2011, 02:45 PM
To be honest, I dont know what else Turbine would do once they reach lvl 20 content later this year. I mean, the only other thing they could do was start all over again back at lvl 1, right?

Yup, they could just start over again. It's not like they didn't do it once already to many people's amazement.

Darkrok
04-22-2011, 02:45 PM
Difference of opinions then. I look at IQ and Dreaming dark and amrath and that too me is low level. I certainly dont play them at cap as my endgame content. I flag amrath and do on elite for yugo favor but rarely touch them again unless im helping a friend. I do dreaming dark if i need to upgrade something for a tr. More 17-19 content will likely fall into this category.

N

Edit: apologies when I say 'low level' I mean stuff I level up on. Theres stuff I/people run at cap and then theres low level.

I think the difference here is that there are people that don't look at the game even vaguely in the way you're discussing. There are some people that have 30+ lives planned on a single toon. While they may run parts of the end game the 1-20 game IS their game. For them stuff like IQ, Dreaming Dark, and Amrath IS their end game. Heck, there have been toons that I planned in TR'ing quickly that never even set foot in Amrath - I just didn't need to do those quests.

For someone that focuses on one toon and the gear end of things you're absolutely correct - the game starts at 20. When Turbine added in the TR system though they made that part of the game something that might happen in years for people that were really interested in TR'ing. The early part of the game for you is the ONLY game for them. I agree that we need some more end-game content but that 16-20 range will definitely benefit from some extra quests, especially for TRx2's.

Pfold
04-22-2011, 02:49 PM
I think the difference here is that there are people that don't look at the game even vaguely in the way you're discussing. There are some people that have 30+ lives planned on a single toon. While they may run parts of the end game the 1-20 game IS their game. For them stuff like IQ, Dreaming Dark, and Amrath IS their end game. Heck, there have been toons that I planned in TR'ing quickly that never even set foot in Amrath - I just didn't need to do those quests.

For someone that focuses on one toon and the gear end of things you're absolutely correct - the game starts at 20. When Turbine added in the TR system though they made that part of the game something that might happen in years for people that were really interested in TR'ing. The early part of the game for you is the ONLY game for them. I agree that we need some more end-game content but that 16-20 range will definitely benefit from some extra quests, especially for TRx2's.


Why argue semantics when you know what he means?

twix
04-22-2011, 02:52 PM
I would be more interested in something more akin to amrath elite...could care less if it was epic..release a challenging high level pack with a raid that has n/h/e difficulties and id be ok with that.
Im still hoping that with epic reboot I might actually have fun doing epic. Id rather they fine tune and fix epics before releasing more..

Darkrok
04-22-2011, 03:02 PM
Why argue semantics when you know what he means?

It's not the semantics I'm arguing. My point is that for quite a few hard-core gamers their 'end game' is not the same as his 'end game'. Turbine has a double-edged sword there in that it keeps people playing longer but those people that choose the 30+ lives TR path over the epic/gear grind path will as a result have different needs from the game. It splits their development resources on keeping their most active players happy.

Bufo_Alvarius
04-22-2011, 03:14 PM
As i understand it, the original epic endgame was put into place to stall veterans from leaving. I dont think it was stated quite like that but the writing is on the wall. Rehashed content, a huge grind (understatement) designed to keep you here and tons of terribly thought out items clogging the drops. Some of the newer epics go a long way trying to fix these problems but its bandaids on a bigger problem imo.

I am glad they are revisiting it and i want them to take all the time they need to make it worth doing.

Cetus
04-22-2011, 03:15 PM
It's not the semantics I'm arguing. My point is that for quite a few hard-core gamers their 'end game' is not the same as his 'end game'. Turbine has a double-edged sword there in that it keeps people playing longer but those people that choose the 30+ lives TR path over the epic/gear grind path will as a result have different needs from the game. It splits their development resources on keeping their most active players happy.

Understand that in part of the challenge that we ask for, we include the chase after items. We want to accelerate our characters in a way where its FUN. The fun comes from the chase, and the chase needs to be made such that it doesn't happen overnight. If turbines clever, they would tailor it to those who are assumed to have Esos's, abishai gear, and claw sets- but not TR lives, TR'ing should provide players the edge in my opinion- but gear is fair game to balance around in order to acquire higher level gear.

e.g. you get madstone boots from reaver at 14, get more dmg to take on shroud at 16, you get greensteel to fight vod and hound to get your leviks, tharnes, whatever...You then use all of your combined equipment and you take on TOD...you acquire set bonuses and rings, you cap out your character with prestige classes and you begin to slowly acquire epic gear. Once epicly geared, you move further to take on the next challenges that assume you have the stuff. This would enable players to want to do quests in order rather than jump into epics like they do now with nothing to show for it, and then complain why veterans don't take new players but thats a different story.

Darkrok
04-22-2011, 03:28 PM
Understand that in part of the challenge that we ask for, we include the chase after items. We want to accelerate our characters in a way where its FUN. The fun comes from the chase, and the chase needs to be made such that it doesn't happen overnight. If turbines clever, they would tailor it to those who are assumed to have Esos's, abishai gear, and claw sets- but not TR lives, TR'ing should provide players the edge in my opinion- but gear is fair game to balance around in order to acquire higher level gear.

e.g. you get madstone boots from reaver at 14, get more dmg to take on shroud at 16, you get greensteel to fight vod and hound to get your leviks, tharnes, whatever...You then use all of your combined equipment and you take on TOD...you acquire set bonuses and rings, you cap out your character with prestige classes and you begin to slowly acquire epic gear. Once epicly geared, you move further to take on the next challenges that assume you have the stuff. This would enable players to want to do quests in order rather than jump into epics like they do now with nothing to show for it, and then complain why veterans don't take new players but thats a different story.

I understand what the group of players that feel the way you do are saying. My point is that not every hard-core gamer plays like that. There are quite a few that view the items as secondary and the TR plan as the primary game. My point is simply that Turbine has to cater to both camps (as well as cater to the much larger base of people that aren't hard-core gamers at all), a fact which splits their development attention.

Pfold
04-22-2011, 03:30 PM
It splits their development resources on keeping their most active players happy.

I don't know but I would be willing to bet that the most 'Active' players are the ones are the ones asking for more epic or better content.

Cyr
04-22-2011, 03:46 PM
I understand what the group of players that feel the way you do are saying. My point is that not every hard-core gamer plays like that. There are quite a few that view the items as secondary and the TR plan as the primary game. My point is simply that Turbine has to cater to both camps (as well as cater to the much larger base of people that aren't hard-core gamers at all), a fact which splits their development attention.

I'm not sure that many would disagree that the content Turbine is producing during this next year is in demand (15+ leveling content). I do think that players will disagree that there is enough overall content being created.

Last year they did 6 updates with 4 of those updates including end game content.
From what we have heard this year is 4? updates with 1 of those including end game content.

That is not enough content of any sort, but true end game content is particularly missing since that is the content that people spend alot of time playing. Even a TR*2 does not spend months playing the same leveling content...they can't because they eventually outlevel it.

Darkrok
04-22-2011, 03:48 PM
I don't know but I would be willing to bet that the most 'Active' players are the ones are the ones asking for more epic or better content.

Yeah, that's just something that's not easy to answer. Most of the very active players I know don't run epics at all...they're doing the TR circuit. But that's because that's what I'm doing so that's the people that I run with most often which would be the same for both types of players.

In any case there's a non-negligible group on both sides that require attention. In addition, the TR crowd is probably more lucrative since there's a good chance they're buying those hearts. The epic tokens aren't hard to get but when people are trying to get a life done every week or two (or faster) they may not want to put up with running for 20 epic tokens before TR'ing. Epic/end-game raiders don't have an analogous expense to the game and in fact - unless they're VIP - have no real reason to spend any more money as Turbine releases non-end game content.

I'm glad I'm not the one calling the shots because even if I had the numbers I'm sure those decisions are one heck of a balancing act between keeping your large base of non-power gamers happy while also addressing the needs of two distinctly different groups of power gamers.

Darkrok
04-22-2011, 03:51 PM
I do think that players will disagree that there is enough overall content being created.

That's something we can all agree on...we want more. Why there isn't more is a question none of us can really answer, whether it's economics, engine issues, other technical problems, internal turnover...we just aren't privy to that information. I'm coming at this from the angle of 'they're putting out as much content as they can...are they putting out the right content'. I think all the players agree we'd like to see much MUCH more stuff in, assuming it has the requisite level of polish to it.

Cetus
04-22-2011, 03:56 PM
I really don't know how say it in a way that is different from what anyone else has already. I just want to see this game grow in a way where the endgame is expanded. Its so stagnant right now, feels like reaching a dead end after a mile long walk in an underground tunnel- you've come this far- but nothing else to do.

I don't even know whether to be excited about new classes or not because even TR'ing into them makes us lose hard acquired tomes. I can barely get excited after pulling a +4 tome because I know that I can't even use it unless I want to lose it when these new classes are introduced. None of this feels as right as it used to years ago.

I really hope the devs are reading these comments as they claim they do.

Darkrok
04-22-2011, 04:01 PM
I really don't know how say it in a way that is different from what anyone else has already. I just want to see this game grow in a way where the endgame is expanded. Its so stagnant right now, feels like reaching a dead end after a mile long walk in an underground tunnel- you've come this far- but nothing else to do.

I don't even know whether to be excited about new classes or not because even TR'ing into them makes us lose hard acquired tomes. I can barely get excited after pulling a +4 tome because I know that I can't even use it unless I want to lose it when these new classes are introduced. None of this feels as right as it used to years ago.

I really hope the devs are reading these comments as they claim they do.

I understand the economic reasons they do what they do with tomes but I do agree that it hurts the end-game when you can't use a +4 tome unless you're ABSOLUTELY sure you're staying with that life. I got burnt with that on five +3 tomes I used on my monk when I was positive I was happy with where he was...he was *just* good enough to stun in epics and had *just* enough ki to get by doing it. Then, U9's changes are announced, and he doesn't anymore. That's fine - the game changes - but it would be nice if Tomes acted more like gear and less like favor when you TR.

EyeRekon
04-22-2011, 04:08 PM
A year is a long time for a reboot.

Yes and many Epic fans will not stick around long enough to ever even see that happen. Other game launches and what not...

If you're bored @ Lev. 20 at least you can TR and they are making it easier to have things to do on those TR lives. After a couple past lives, maybe you will have even more fun with the next Epics.

Cetus
04-22-2011, 04:08 PM
I understand the economic reasons they do what they do with tomes but I do agree that it hurts the end-game when you can't use a +4 tome unless you're ABSOLUTELY sure you're staying with that life. I got burnt with that on five +3 tomes I used on my monk when I was positive I was happy with where he was...he was *just* good enough to stun in epics and had *just* enough ki to get by doing it. Then, U9's changes are announced, and he doesn't anymore. That's fine - the game changes - but it would be nice if Tomes acted more like gear and less like favor when you TR.

Well, the issue with tomes is that it took me years of religiously running TOD, EDQ, and EV6 until I actually got a +4 tome in my main stat. It is a huge downer that I can't even use the dang thing because there can always be a reason to TR now. Nobody is really ever finished even if you have every life tripled out simply because we now have another class released that may have a useful past life, and then we have another class next year.

Why do we need this unnecessary dilemma? How does turbine win with having this mechanism installed? Why don't we just lose our litany's, tharnes goggles, or encrusted rings when we TR? Afterall, they are all raid items. After grinding for months upon months to get completionist, for however slim the benefit is, I put everything into making this character the best I can to just hit a brick wall in the end as far as eating a +4 str tome is concerned. And to further push this point, the past lives can be worthless of the new classes but I'd HAVE TO TR anyway to reacquire my completionist feat in which case my tome is automatically sacrificed. This is the most rediculous thing turbine has implemented into this game since its inception.

fyrst.grok
04-22-2011, 04:35 PM
Difference of opinions then. I look at IQ and Dreaming dark and amrath and that too me is low level. I certainly dont play them at cap as my endgame content. I flag amrath and do on elite for yugo favor but rarely touch them again unless im helping a friend. I do dreaming dark if i need to upgrade something for a tr. More 17-19 content will likely fall into this category.

N

Edit: apologies when I say 'low level' I mean stuff I level up on. Theres stuff I/people run at cap and then theres low level.

This.. Don't really do other than epics and raids at cap.

Epics you do to upgrade epic stuff, to get epic stuff and for a challenge..
1-19 you do for favor, flagging and non-upgradable stuff..

And I'm in no way near Nick's level.. I actually DO find some of the amrath flagging quests hard, but still managed to solo more than one on elite with one or more of my toons.

However.. Hoping they will add more epics anyway and looking forward to more quests at the higher levels, so I don't have to grind the same ones over and over. :)

Chai
04-22-2011, 04:50 PM
Nonsense. Challenge varies from person to person because it varies from person to person. For some people, two or three raid failures is too many. These people will not be the first ones to complete a raid.

They would be the first people calling for the nerf of that raid because its too hard, just like when epics first came out. The end result of that would be the same as the end result of every other time people asked for nerfs of content. Its becomes so easy and mind numbingly boring that people dont want to grind it.


The amount of challenge a person desires to "have fun" has nothing to do with metagaming.

The amount of challenge period, has EVERYTHING to do with metagaming. Fun is a matter of opinion.


I agree that if you are a heavy min/maxer, it becomes extremely difficult to challenge you without essentially destroying those who (for whatever reason) don't min/max the same way...I have plenty of examples from game mastering PnP ("No, that character is *not* coming into *my* campaign with the rest of my players ... roll something else.") .

I would have an easier time on an average toon being a player in a campaign I have run alot in the past, say...temple of elemental evil, than I would on a min maxed toon in the same campaign on my first time ever being a player in it, as long as the DM didnt change a thing. Metagaming is the single biggest crutch I assure you.



You are, again, tossing everyone into the same bucket. This does not help a discussion progress. .

We all play the same game, we are in the "same bucket" regardless if you agree with that assessment or not. It clearly does help the discussion progress, because it makes us realize that Turbine has to attempt to make this game to please all of its players, and not just the end gamers who feel its too easy for everyone else.


You might as well just have the DM roll on the Wandering Damage Table. :)

Naaa, it could be much more complex than that. They already took a step in that direction with the end boss of Chronoscope. They just need to take three more steps in ther same direction.

We have seen other attempts to take steps in that direction as well, with randomizing traps in some areas etc. I would like to see more of this - ALOT more. No one would be talking about lack of challenge if they didnt experience ther exact_same_thing each time they ran the same end game content.

SableShadow
04-22-2011, 05:07 PM
They would be the first people calling for the nerf of that raid because its too hard, just like when epics first came out.



We all play the same game, we are in the "same bucket"

That's what I mean by "the same bucket". You're tossing everyone (and I do mean *everyone*) with a comment on play balance into exactly the same category...even if they are were on opposite ends of any particular argument.



regardless if you agree with that assessment or not.

^_^



The amount of challenge period, has EVERYTHING to do with metagaming. Fun is a matter of opinion.

^_^



Metagaming is the single biggest crutch I assure you.

Gotcha. So, it would be much more fun not learning an ogre's attack pattern and how to beat it, for instance?


No one would be talking about lack of challenge if they didnt experience ther exact_same_thing each time they ran the same end game content.

Here now, you *know* that isn't true. :)

Cetus
04-22-2011, 05:10 PM
They would be the first people calling for the nerf of that raid because its too hard, just like when epics first came out. The end result of that would be the same as the end result of every other time people asked for nerfs of content. Its becomes so easy and mind numbingly boring that people dont want to grind it.



The amount of challenge period, has EVERYTHING to do with metagaming. Fun is a matter of opinion.



I would have an easier time on an average toon being a player in a campaign I have run alot in the past, say...temple of elemental evil, than I would on a min maxed toon in the same campaign on my first time ever being a player in it, as long as the DM didnt change a thing. Metagaming is the single biggest crutch I assure you.




We all play the same game, we are in the "same bucket" regardless if you agree with that assessment or not. It clearly does help the discussion progress, because it makes us realize that Turbine has to attempt to make this game to please all of its players, and not just the end gamers who feel its too easy for everyone else.



Naaa, it could be much more complex than that. They already took a step in that direction with the end boss of Chronoscope. They just need to take three more steps in ther same direction.

We have seen other attempts to take steps in that direction as well, with randomizing traps in some areas etc. I would like to see more of this - ALOT more. No one would be talking about lack of challenge if they didnt experience ther exact_same_thing each time they ran the same end game content.

What is your definition of metagaming may I ask?

Coldest
04-22-2011, 05:46 PM
epic GH? /signed

At some point, someone is too much of an outlier for the dev's to actually plan something difficult for them that wouldn't be completely impossible for everyone else.

.

Let me offer you a different perspective:

My favorite all time Raid release was the Titan. Our first time in, and probably everyone's, we wiped in less than 60 seconds. My old guild's first time in VoD, we beat it in 17 minutes. I believe a guild on Thelanis beat us first though. Trying to be the first to solve the Titan raid kept numerous guilds across all servers busy for months. It was fantastic.

Threads were being thrown up daily that it was unbeatable. The devs assured us it was possible. And then a guild I wasn't familiar with beat it. Bones Combat Brigade. I sure as hell knew of them after that. And that just fueled the fire to beat that Godforsaken raid.

Of course they nerfed the raid right after it was beat so the "masses" could do it. They didn't need to though. So many guilds were so close at that point. When they nerfed it we felt cheated, not relieved. I never once said to myself, "Cool. Now I can go in and get some loot." My first thought was, "****! Now we will never get the opportunity to say we beat it."

My point, I used to love Raid releases when they were challenging. It was all about the victory. Sure the loot was nice, but even for an old loot escort such as myself, it wasnt about the shinies. It was about the challenge, the late nights with your guild talking tactics and strategies. Private guild forums were buzzing with back and forth feedback on roles, plans, wipes, etc. It was a helluva time.

Coldest

Coldest
04-22-2011, 05:49 PM
^^^

as a side note:

It did not take an ounce of special gear, 100's of mana pots, or anything else people perceive as us/them dividers.


It took hard work, great leadership, and teamwork.

SableShadow
04-22-2011, 06:11 PM
And then a guild I wasn't familiar with beat it. Bones Combat Brigade. I sure as hell knew of them after that. And that just fueled the fire to beat that Godforsaken raid.


Heh heh ... and at the last second, too. It was, what? One day, two? Before the level cap went up to twelve.


It took hard work, great leadership, and teamwork.

Amen.

Auran82
04-22-2011, 06:23 PM
I doubt we will ever see Epic GH simply because there is no money in it, very few people who would play epics, would not already have the Gianthold Pack so it's like throwing developer time in the bin for them, same goes for epic shroud sadly.

Maybe they could charge a small amount (say 150 - 200 points) for epic unlocking on these packs, I don't know the exact figures, but I would guess there would be something like a ****load of accounts that would pay that amount.

I'm not advocating them gouging us more, I am just being realistic, Von and DQ sales would not have been fantastic before they were epicified, Von3/5 and Wizking are decent xp quests, but apart from a couple of raid items from DQ and maybe some items for TRing, there was nothing amazing from those packs pre-epic.

It sadens me the lack of new epic quests, because of the lack of new endgame content and because I look at the new items they make and think "I wonder what the epic version would look like"

Junts
04-22-2011, 06:28 PM
^^^

as a side note:

It did not take an ounce of special gear, 100's of mana pots, or anything else people perceive as us/them dividers.


It took hard work, great leadership, and teamwork.



Also, if you know Rodney .. it took a holy **** ton of luck to do it with him in the group.

:)


I've come to accept this reality: After a certain level of equipment, this game will not be challenging unless you make it that way for yourself (pdeath, shortman, etc etc). There are too few of us who have characters, especially multiple characters, who are equipped enough to handle the kind of challenges this thread is asking for, and there's a lot more people who would be angry about there being content they cannot do and/or be frustrated that hteir fiarly good character is not up to the task. The gap between a twinked-out character with epic claw sets, abishai sets, epic chaosblades or sos's, epic marilith chains and red scale, and a lv 20 with even decent loot from hound and vision and some shroud gear is bigger than the gap between that lv 20 and a lv 18 character. Anything that remotely challenged the DPS capability of those characters, or their healing output or healability or anything else would be completley beyond the abilities of people who don't have it. We used to say on DDO that gear is only part of it, but gear is a huge deal now - the composite benefit of adding eternal fire, epic claw and/or greater shocking blow, ravager set and shintao set, and a high end epic weapon to a dps build is often an increase equal to 1/4 to 1/3 of that character's total DPS before attaining any of that gear. The gap is gigantomassive at this point. And nothing is designed to test the dps output of people that actually have that stuff.

Unlike WOW, DDO has no longterm histolry of catering to challenging its highest-end players and guilds, and the rest of its playerbase would not follow the accomplishments of those groups closely and be interested even without participating, as is the case with WoW raids and heroic on release. There's just not the culture on DDO to support that kind of thing, which you knwo the WoW developers devote disproportionate amounts of time and balance effort to despite the fact that a very minute amount of hteir players partake in the first-time-heroic races. Since everyone else is intersted in the outcome, and they have things like sponsored teams and free coverage on other websites, it pays off for them.

On DDO, a content pack devoted to challenging Nick and Teth and I and other players with characters that are that well equipped and prepared would be seriously attempted by 2-3 guilds and maybem, at most, about 100-250 distinct players per server.

The other benefits that WoW gets from that content don't exist in this community. It would just breed anger and resentment. Heck, on DDO a pugger who joins a high-end group for an extremely fast completion of a raid is as likely to be frustrated for being hurried along or left behind as they are to be grateful or interested in the experience of doing the quest in 1/2 to 1/3 the time they usually spend in it. People who play like that are not widely admired in the DDO playerbase, in general, for reasons that are both their fault and not (DDO raiders are often huge condescending pricks to less-geared players who join their raids).

Coldest
04-22-2011, 06:51 PM
I've come to accept this reality: After a certain level of equipment, this game will not be challenging unless you make it that way for yourself (pdeath, shortman, etc etc). There are too few of us who have characters, especially multiple characters, who are equipped enough to handle the kind of challenges this thread is asking for, and there's a lot more people who would be angry about there being content they cannot do and/or be frustrated that hteir fiarly good character is not up to the task. .

That is because we have had such a long era of dps vs. damage taken raid models, aka boss beat downs. The Titan raid had none of that. It was pure teamwork. It really didn't matter if you were well equiped or masterfully built. It was all about the team not the toon.

I am not longing for a raid that can only be beat by Epic toting completionists. I'd like a raid that is challenging. Gear and character stats have nothing to do with what I consider challenging.

Junts
04-22-2011, 06:57 PM
That is because we have had such a long era of dps vs. damage taken raid models, aka boss beat downs. The Titan raid had none of that. It was pure teamwork. It really didn't matter if you were well equiped or masterfully built. It was all about the team not the toon.

I am not longing for a raid that can only be beat by Epic toting completionists. I'd like a raid that is challenging. Gear and character stats have nothing to do with what I consider challenging.

I can appreciate that and thats true, on the other hand, the problem with raids like the titan (and the reaver, and the abbot) is that after a certain point (and that point was much higher with first-edition titan because there were no mass cures yet etc), it doesn't matter what class you are, what equipmetn you have, etc, and therefore character progress and achievement are completely divorced from loot.

I appreciate htat I would like more experiences like what it was like for us to learn the abbot on our own a couple years ago, but the downside of that model is that not only did group composition mean little, but character advancement and character achievement were divorced.

The best challenge/achievements I've seen on DDO, stuff like Oddlived's VOD and Nick's 2 man shroud at 16, etc, are remarkable and noteworthy and super fun because they required both excellent play and excellent character preparation. But DDO itself, outside of players creating scenarios like this, has never actually provided a raid that challenged both at the same time.

The first release of the shroud might have been the closest, since it certainly didn't become widely pugged and/or easily completed for a fair amount of time, especially not without bugging out pt 5. When I started playing DDO 5 months after the raid's release, it was still almost never pugged and most pugs were shroud 1-3 and shroud 1-4 no completion groups because people couldn't beat pt 5.

I've done a couple things that I would think of ass fun or interesting DDO achievements: doing titan solo, and 4 mannining epic chrono w/o foreknowledge. In both cases, both strategy and character performance were necessary to accomplish the task. The added challenge of doing fchrono in an environment where wer were figuring out the raid mechanics -as- we shortmanned the raid added a lot of challenge and fun to the experience, and I think parto f why I hate chrono as a raid is that running it in a full group can never even begin to touch that experience because the raid isn't challenging or interesting at all in a full raid.

maddmatt70
04-22-2011, 07:06 PM
Thanks nick for posting this suggestion. I think end game players bring alot to DDO. It is often hard to measure an impact a person in game has. Yes we all pay our fee or buy content at the same rate, but providing an atmosphere and climate which enhances the enjoyment of others which end game players so often do is worth something. That casual player decides that he/she wants to do a shroud on a give day and guess who is leading that shroud lfm, but an end game player. This action by the end game player just enhanced that casual player's DDO experience. I think neglecting end game players is a mistake. Give them something to chew on if not epic then worthy level 20 content.

Henrieta
04-22-2011, 07:06 PM
I like the Abbot raid.

Adversiityz
04-22-2011, 07:15 PM
Please release some challenging content at endgame.

/signed

mystafyi
04-22-2011, 08:52 PM
~snip~We used to say on DDO that gear is only part of it, but gear is a huge deal now ~snip~ The gap is gigantomassive at this point.

Power creep is off the chain... and new content due out this year will make past creep look tame in comparision.

Junts
04-22-2011, 09:00 PM
Power creep is off the chain... and new content due out this year will make past creep look tame in comparision.

That isn't necessarily true, but its the aggregate result of a desirable thing:

it used to be that there was no dps enhancing equipment. At 16, we wore two things for dps: a sneak attack item (tharnes) and a seeker item (bloodstone). There were virutally no alternatives to either and the only other gear with +damage on it was litany of the dead.

Now there is more than a full equipment set of diferent dps enhacners, which means that you actually have to devote gear space to it. Part of the reason exploiter rangers were so powerful is that they didn't have to give up dps gear in order to wear every ac item in the game - there was no dps gear to wear.

Even if ac worked now, that same build would be a lot weaker because it couldn't accomodate being good at both because the gear requirements have changed. Its good that being good at damage now requires most of your equipment. However, that leads to an aggregate gap between people who have and people who don't have.

No one individual one of those dps enhancers is overpowered - not even ravager or claw (the ones that are the hardest to fit into gear becuas ethey offer no epic slots or useful effects besides their set bonii). the aggregate, however, is beyond what the game is designed to require at the moment.

Furthermore, after this point any DPS enhancer will inevitably provide a smaller benefit because accomodating the items will require giving up some other dps enhancing item to fit it in. This is already the case with how you cannot get both claw set and greater shocking blow, but no matter what slot holds a dps item added in the future, it will conflict with acquiring all the other set bonuses. Even if it is better than those sets, it will not be as big of a bonus because you will have to give up the least-good set of them (which is shintao for most people or fb for monks).

I would expect that we will instead see DPS enhancers in the vein of the non-epic claw set, in other slots where damage is provided by the higher level stuff - gear that helps make up that gap between have and have-not. b ecause right now those are the only two statuses. Adding things that compete, either worse or better, with the existing sets will make it easier for people to get at least some of them and meet any challenge designed for people with most of them. Afer all, most characters dont actually wear every one of those, even dps chara ters - you have to give up basically every equipment slot to wear shintao+ravager+3pc abishai+claw and still get sneak attack, seeker and eternal fire.

Battlehawke
04-22-2011, 09:02 PM
I like most of the Changes coming, however, there seems to be a "song and dance" around what we want and expect from d&d, like druids, more weapons, pre's, high level content, ect.,

...still love the game

Cetus
04-23-2011, 03:46 AM
I like most of the Changes coming, however, there seems to be a "song and dance" around what we want and expect from d&d, like druids, more weapons, pre's, high level content, ect.,

...still love the game

One thing you CAN believe is that if nobody loved the game this thread would be silent.

All of us post on here and try to push what we believe out of love for the game. I sometimes question whether our developers share that feeling with us, or if its just another day at work to earn a paycheck.

skunk
04-23-2011, 05:09 AM
The only answer to this. Is to make a total random dungeon. Traps can spawn anyplace. Different type of traps. sometimes no traps. Different monsters. Different end boss each time. make it be totally random. You could get a shadow dragon 2 times in a row, then not see it for a few months.

Unless they can do this. Nobody will be happy. Then all you will complain that its not memorizable.

I was in the 4th guild to ever beat the Dragon on DDO. the first time we went into VON, it was a pain in the butt. The traps were great, it took us quite a long time to beat it. Was prob my favorite memory in DDO. When we finally made it to the end boss of part 5, it was something special. When we finally beat part 5, it was insane. We epically failed the baseball diamond in part 6 the first 3 times we did it. bridge falling. Killing all the mobs, not having metaline weapons. it was fun. it was hard. Nobody knew what to expect. The first guild to beat it wouldn't say how. nobody did. You took only your guild, and you didn't tell others the information.

Now this game is cookie cutter. You want your cake and eat it too. Maybe play the game on a Non 20x tr. I was playing epics on a 28 point, 250 point rogue. Why, because it was my toon.

I used to be a power gamer, now i grew up from it. I enjoy the game. I don't have to be the first on the server, or first in game. You know what. The game is much better that way. :)

grodon9999
04-23-2011, 11:02 AM
. . .

That being said if they do some non-epic endgame contetn right I think it could be great for the game. Now that they have a true tanking mechanism in the game I think they can design some really cool encounters that really take advantage of this. They could use this to show off that kind of play and also reconsider how high ac/dr threat tanking could also be reworked into epic to give more options there. . . .


Give all the epic bosses a 20 Power-attack :)

TheHolyDarkness
04-23-2011, 08:10 PM
If one wants a challenge, do the Epics that I notice a lot of people avoiding all the time.

Small Problem.

VoN3 and VoN4.

The Black Loch.

There we have it. Now now, development takes time. Lags between our demands and actual implementation are to be expected.

Of course there will be expansions to Epic. Show some gosh darned patience. :P

(no doubt, by the time these expansions come, we'll be complaining about something else deemed "missing")
~TheHolyDarkness Out~