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shopach
04-20-2011, 04:42 PM
Turbine should polish up whatever tool they use for quest design and make it publicly available so that players can make new quests. Those quests could be submitted to Turbine for possible inclusion into the game world upon review.

I think this would be extremely cool, though the obvious problem here is that whoever goes through them would have to wade through hundreds or thousands of poorly balanced, poorly grammared (lol) quest submissions. Does anyone have any idea how this could be implemented in a way to reduce these issues?

Personally I'm thinking that the toolkit could have a built-in timer that would track the total amount of time you spend working on a particular quest, then when you submit it the final time would also be submitted, such that whoever reviews them could start with the ones that people spent the most time on

As far as game balance, you could possibly implement a system in the toolkit that would automatically determine the suggested level, xp reward, and possible items to include. Basically it would work a lot like the nwn toolkit did but with some balance limitations. Any other ideas for making this possible?

Monroid
04-20-2011, 04:45 PM
I know Turbine might be losing the gas at the moment, but I think that the people that are being paid to design dungeons are going to keep making a better job than random people

Sure, once in a while someone can come with a good idea, just like in Happy Wheels, but apart from that, it's all "SAW LV 35" and "SUPER DON'T MOVE" if you know what I mean

So, yeah, I'd say it isn't worth the risk :P

varusso
04-20-2011, 04:53 PM
Personally I'm thinking that the toolkit could have a built-in timer that would track the total amount of time you spend working on a particular quest, then when you submit it the final time would also be submitted, such that whoever reviews them could start with the ones that people spent the most time on

Reason why this particular part wont work:

(1) Log onto tool, go to sleep, get up, go to work, come home, play DDO, forget about the tool being on for 3 day.
What the heck? This adventure has 200 hours logged, but it consists solely of fighting a giant rat for a hunk of cheese???

(2) Log on only when ready to work, have a good idea of what you want to do, and a clear path to it. Log off each time you are done or hit a snag, go do something else while you mull it over.
Wow, this quest CHAIN only has 10 hours logged, but it is well-designed, polished, and obviously has multiple passes looking for error and inconsistencies.

Aside from that, I have actually done game design and creation, and every time I opened it up for the playerbase to submit their own quests, I inevitably ended up with a flood of garbage, often a paragraph 'outlining' a 'cool idea' for a quest, with no real meat to it. No polish, barely even a mention of what mobs should be in the encounters (or for that matter WHERE the encounters should be), no dialogue with NPCs, only the most rudimentary idea of what quest objectives should be. Nothing about rewards, other than 'some cool sword', etc.

There are some great, creative minds out there that could put together some very good adventures in relatively short periods of time. The problem is that the shear amount of time needed to sift through all that trash (especially with a population the side of DDOs) to find the rare gem FAR outweighs the time required to hire a qualified professional to do it. Its not that this is a BAD idea; its just not likely to ever see a practical implementation.

Capashen
04-20-2011, 04:54 PM
Turbine should polish up whatever tool they use for quest design and make it publicly available so that players can make new quests. Those quests could be submitted to Turbine for possible inclusion into the game world upon review.

I think this would be extremely cool, though the obvious problem here is that whoever goes through them would have to wade through hundreds or thousands of poorly balanced, poorly grammared (lol) quest submissions. Does anyone have any idea how this could be implemented in a way to reduce these issues?

Personally I'm thinking that the toolkit could have a built-in timer that would track the total amount of time you spend working on a particular quest, then when you submit it the final time would also be submitted, such that whoever reviews them could start with the ones that people spent the most time on

As far as game balance, you could possibly implement a system in the toolkit that would automatically determine the suggested level, xp reward, and possible items to include. Basically it would work a lot like the nwn toolkit did but with some balance limitations. Any other ideas for making this possible?

/not signed

Although this works with an RTS, I don't see at as really being feasible with an MMO.

Yaskin_Forrit
04-20-2011, 05:51 PM
Not so sure about this - I have done some 'home made' quests in other games and while a few are great, the majority are complete dross.

I would prefer to see a system where we (the players) can submit a complete quest for approval by turbine. The best of these (per month?) can then be developed into a full DDO quest

shopach
04-21-2011, 02:17 PM
(1) Log onto tool, go to sleep, get up, go to work, come home, play DDO, forget about the tool being on for 3 day.
What the heck? This adventure has 200 hours logged, but it consists solely of fighting a giant rat for a hunk of cheese???


This could be reasonably corrected with a 3 minute inactivity timer or something of the like. It certainly wouldn't be perfect, but should help.

Also I do mean a full-fledged toolkit such that what the player submits should be a fully polished product, though Turbine could modify it upon receipt.

But the reason I created this post was to see if anyone had good ideas regarding how the "massive trash sifting" syndrome could be avoided. I am very familiar with the general crappiness of player-made things. Usually this is because designing a quest requires a very deep comprehension of game play. So most of even the top-tier player-made content still lacks. Either the player is excellent at game balance, difficulty setting, and the mechanical aspects, but can't write a story to save his life and his grammar is complete ****, or they create awesome story arcs and great dialogue but have no clue that giving player x a +10 Hammer of Utter Domination will ruin the fun of the game.

So what sort of automated things could be put into play so that out of 1000 submitted quests, the best 10-20 will float to the top for review?

I've already mentioned a timer to be able to sort quest submissions based on time spent on them. But as varusso pointed out, this has the potential of leaving out really well-made quests that the creator spent a lot of time fleshing out while not using the toolkit. So it's obvious that a second metric should be used, and probably a third and fourth.

More ideas please!

P.S. I by no means think that player-made quests should eventually supplant the paid designers, but with a good enough system it could make their job a lot easier. For instance, whoever filters the quests finds one that has a lot of potential and forwards it to the paid designer who fleshes it out and maybe adds cool new elements to it that only someone on the inside could do.

P.P.S Also, the reason I think this is a good idea is that obviously there exists a much higher demand for quests in ddo than there are presently available. According to someone's post there are currently only 3 level 15 quests. I know they are adding more level 15s in mod 9, but seriously the game lacks that concept of hugeness that an MMO should have. When playing Ultima Online or EVE Online, you get the impression that there is this vast game world that you can roam around in forever and not see the whole of it. DDO definitely lacks this currently.

Khanyth
04-21-2011, 02:24 PM
/not signed.

I don't know about the game building/designing specifics.... I just don't like player MODs for games

personal preference, that's all

varusso
04-21-2011, 03:01 PM
This could be reasonably corrected with a 3 minute inactivity timer or something of the like. It certainly wouldn't be perfect, but should help.


Which could also be bypassed by the same 'keep-alive' methods we use to not get logged out of the game, not to mention, if I am puzzling over something in the quest design, and the app keeps logging me out, I am eventually going to quit bothering with it. All of that is really a semantic debate over mechanics, though. The real problem lies in the situation I outlined, wherein user-created content is mostly JUNK, and far more man-hour intensive to sort through than the amount of time necessary for a real professional to design new content.

And aside from all that, new content is usually worked by a team. One (or more) person comes up with the story arc idea. Another designs the dungeon layout, another works on the monster concepts and stats. Yet another group works on the art content, another group does the coding etc. Obviously, some of this work would still actually be done by the development team. But even what is left for the gamer -- there is a considerable amount of work to be done by only one person. At least if it is going to be worth submitting. Very few people actually have what it takes to do all this and produce something worth reviewing. Significantly fewer than the people who THINK they have what it takes ;-)

Again, this is from first-hand experience. While the idea is appealing to let your players design content, the reality is that it is a monster project, which only gets worse the more people you have IN your playerbase.

Now on the other hand, Turbine has been known to put up contests for players to submit various types of content. Guess they like the punishment :D

donfilibuster
04-21-2011, 06:24 PM
As far as i remember the devs have given this a tought already, but the existing tool is not player friendly.

Last time it was brought up was in the talks about player housing before u5 when one option for guild hall was a custom dungeon.

But while player dungeon is a valid feature request there's other nice ideas like custom arenas or mazes.
And i bet some of it has seeped into the upcoming 'challenge quests' mode, which is what we are getting in the near future.

If it were me, i'd go with something to let people practice akin to the ship's dummy, like an illusion hall (aka the weird spell).
That way you could do some custom questing without having to do actual design.
e.g. you can check boxes to face some trolls before heading to a quest with trolls, altough the real thing would still be better practice.