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blackdrowarcanenuts
04-18-2011, 11:21 PM
As read in the lamania release notes thf feat will no longer do glancing blows so coming up next update is it not worth to take two handed fighting feat as glancing blows are no more. so taking two handed fighting feat on fighter is not worth now?

Relenthe
04-18-2011, 11:30 PM
On a previous update, thf was changed to no longer use glancing blows while moving. (due to people twitching and doing much more damage than standing still)

Therefore there are two methods of thf, either

1. You take all the feats and dont move while attacking

2. You twitch and give up glancing blows.

My only thf'er is a tukaw soon to be fvs. He doesn't have enough feats to take the chain so I just twitch and he does fine.

I'm not sure which one does more damage in the end, but I believe twitching gives you more attacks and may be slightly more dps unless you are facing multiple mobs. Although you do take a -4 on attack rolls while moving

KillEveryone
04-18-2011, 11:32 PM
I don't see where in the notes that it will no longer give glancing blows.

They did change it a while back that you wouldn't get glancing blows while moving.

Even still, if you preferred to move and flank while fighting, the feats were not worth it any way since you wouldn't get any benefit.

Nysrock
04-18-2011, 11:32 PM
As read in the lamania release notes thf feat will no longer do glancing blows so coming up next update is it not worth to take two handed fighting feat as glancing blows are no more. so taking two handed fighting feat on fighter is not worth now?

I have seen nothing that says glancing blows don't work anymore. The only thing I see that mentions it is this:


Great Cleave will no longer pause a player's attack cycle. Cleave will also now work with glancing blows from two-handed weapons and exotic weapons like bastard swords and dwarven axes.

blackdrowarcanenuts
04-18-2011, 11:38 PM
I don't see where in the notes that it will no longer give glancing blows.

They did change it a while back that you wouldn't get glancing blows while moving.

Even still, if you preferred to move and flank while fighting, the feats were not worth it any way since you wouldn't get any benefit.

Thanks very much for info so no thf feat line right.

sirgog
04-18-2011, 11:42 PM
The feat is one of the better melee feats, unless you often twitch fight.

For almost every build, however, it's not nearly as good as the top two-handed melee feats, however: Improved Critical, Power Attack and Toughness.

blackdrowarcanenuts
04-18-2011, 11:56 PM
The feat is one of the better melee feats, unless you often twitch fight.

For almost every build, however, it's not nearly as good as the top two-handed melee feats, however: Improved Critical, Power Attack and Toughness.

Thanks for quick response and info so making a horc 32 point fighter and i dont twitch dunno how to do it so on my fighter i dont take the thf feats?

KillEveryone
04-19-2011, 12:04 AM
Thanks for quick response and info so making a horc 32 point fighter and i dont twitch dunno how to do it so on my fighter i dont take the thf feats?

I don't twitch.

I move around.

I try to flank.

I try to get out of harms way.

Critters constantly move so I need to close in to kill.

If you plan to play like this, the feat line isn't really worth it in my opinion.

If you can plant your feat and not move from that spot while killing, the line may be usable.

It depends upon your play style though.

Jaid314
04-19-2011, 12:04 AM
Thanks for quick response and info so making a horc 32 point fighter and i dont twitch dunno how to do it so on my fighter i dont take the thf feats?

if you do not twitch, then you need the THF feats to keep up in damage. the easiest form of twitching (which, incidentally, also grants glancing blows last time i checked, so if you use *only* this form of twitching you still need the feats) is to hold down the jump key while attacking. the largest attack speed increase happens with greataxe, if i'm not mistaken.

blackdrowarcanenuts
04-19-2011, 12:36 AM
I don't twitch.

I move around.

I try to flank.

I try to get out of harms way.

Critters constantly move so I need to close in to kill.

If you plan to play like this, the feat line isn't really worth it in my opinion.

If you can plant your feat and not move from that spot while killing, the line may be usable.

It depends upon your play style though.

many thanks:)

Jaid314
04-19-2011, 12:45 AM
I don't twitch.

I move around.

I try to flank.

I try to get out of harms way.

Critters constantly move so I need to close in to kill.

If you plan to play like this, the feat line isn't really worth it in my opinion.

If you can plant your feat and not move from that spot while killing, the line may be usable.

It depends upon your play style though.

honestly, on a fighter you've got feats to burn. my personal opinion is you may as well take them, because sometimes (eg raid boss fights) unless you're specifically trying to twitch, odds are good you're standing still.

if it was a barbarian, that might change things up somewhat. but a fighter? go for it. it's at least as useful as the dragonmarks your fighter might be considering by the time you get to high levels :P

ReaperAlexEU
04-19-2011, 07:36 AM
what you might not realise is you get a glancing blow on your main target too. common sense would dictate that you get a normal attack on your selected target, and a glancing blow on everything else near by. this is not the case. you actually get a normal attack against your selected target, and a glancing blow on everything close enough, including your selected target.

so, even in a boss fight your glancing blows are still increasing your damage. in some of the more popular raids the team surrounds the boss to prevent it from running about. in that situation you will be getting glancing blows every round.

on a fighter its almost a no-brainer to get all 3 two handed fighting feats, especially if you're building up a fighter for DPS. as a half orc you also get enhancements to boost the glancing blows too!

with no feats your glancing blows will happen on half of your attacks for 20% of your base damage, this gives you a 10% bonus to your physical DPS (special weapon effects are excluded).

with all 3 feats you will get a glancing blow on 3/4 of your attacks for 50% of your physical damage, thats a 37.5% bonus to your physical damage, a very healthy boost on a fighter without the feats!

as a fighter and a half orc you can improve that further by adding a chance for the special effects of your weapon to activate on a glancing blow, eg the flaming part.

there arnt many feats that let you go from a 10% dmg bonus to a 37.5% dmg bonus, and fighters do get a lot of feats to play with.

tihocan
04-19-2011, 08:15 AM
on A Fighter Its Almost A No-brainer To Get All 3 Two Handed Fighting Feats
Qfe :)

Fejj
04-19-2011, 08:29 AM
THF feats add DPS. Its that easy. In the fights where is matters, you will most likely be standing still anyway. (unless twitching)

Glancing blows work on your primary target as well. With GTHF you get "free" glancing blows at attack #1 and #3 in the chain
1 - Attack + glancing
2 - Attack
3 - Attack + glancing
4 - Attack

Each glancing blow is 50% of your base damage, with a chance to proc special abilities too.

Let me ask this, what would you take instead? That may better help people to decide if its worth it. To me, if your focus is DPS, take the feats.

NaturalHazard
04-19-2011, 08:34 AM
how do you twich? and is it an exploit?

TheDjinnFor
04-19-2011, 10:42 AM
I'm not sure which one does more damage in the end, but I believe twitching gives you more attacks and may be slightly more dps unless you are facing multiple mobs. Although you do take a -4 on attack rolls while moving

Twitching does less damage than standing THF with the glancing blows from the feats, even against a single foe. Of course, the ~2-3 hit delay between when you stop moving and when you start getting glancing blows again is significant enough to make the feats a lot less powerful then it could be (given that you do move quite a bit when fighting most trash), almost to the point where it becomes irrelevant.

It makes the most sense to twitch against a single mob if you're going to kill him in a few hits (say, 6) anyways, since you'll have the benefit of faster attack speed and won't miss the glancing blows on the last 3 attacks (remember that you do get glancing blows on single mobs, just not the first few attacks after you stop moving). Against multiple mobs though you get a much greater benefit, particularly now that the barb capstone is working correctly.

In any case, you could choose not to take the feats and instead twitch all the time; you'll take a DPS hit but it's not much against single targets and you don't have to pay as much attention while you are fighting.


Glancing blows work on your primary target as well. With GTHF you get "free" glancing blows at attack #1 and #3 in the chain
1 - Attack + glancing
2 - Attack
3 - Attack + glancing
4 - Attack

Each glancing blow is 50% of your base damage, with a chance to proc special abilities too.

All wrong.

Glancing blows start at 20% of base damage, and increase by 10% for each feat you select, plus an extra 10% for the barbarian capstone. The glancing blows hit at the first and fourth attacks in your chain, with an additional glancing blow at the third attack if you take GTHF.


Let me ask this, what would you take instead? That may better help people to decide if its worth it. To me, if your focus is DPS, take the feats.

Pretend you're a Barbarian:

Toughness
Improved Critical: Slashing
Power Attack (+10 damage per hit, +6 barbarian enhancement, +6 warforged/HOrc enhancement)
Cleave (Frenzied Barbarian PrE requirement)
Stunning Blow (+50% damage on all attacks post U9)

You now have 2 feats left. Not getting GTHF is a problem: THF and ITHF each give about 5% more damage per swing per foe and an extra 1.5% chance to proc weapon effects per swing per foe (since glancing blows only hit on the first and fourth swing). GTHF, on the other hand adds 20% more damage per swing per foe (assuming barb capstone) and at least an extra 6.5% chance (assuming capstone and frenzied barb PrE) to proc weapon effects per swing per foe thanks to the addition of another glancing blow on the third hit in your attack chain. The whole point of the chain is to take GTHF.

You can ditch toughness, maybe, and go with the 3 THF feats for a moderate DPS advantage over twitching; if you're okay with losing at least 60 hp (and probably closer to 80).

wax_on_wax_off
04-19-2011, 03:14 PM
The best guide ive seen for twitching is on page 2 of vanshilar's attack speed index thread, I'm on my iPhone right now cant post the link.

Twitching is not easy and even if you do it perfectly you'll still be slightly behind in terms of damage compared to if you had all the feats. Doing it perfectly is difficult, especially in some fights where things are chaotic and you can't see your character properly due to the size of the boss or your team members standing on top of you.

Get the full chain if you can afford it which on a fighter you can. Furthermore, kensais and barbarians get special, class only boosts to their glancing blows so if you are either of these you should definitely have the feats. If you a stalwart defender you should probably have them too for bastard sword/daxe damage with shield.

Jaid314
04-19-2011, 03:29 PM
@ TheDjinnFor: he did ask if it was worth it on a *fighter*. as i said, it's a bit iffy on a barbarian maybe, but no question on a fighter, you want it.

(also, on a side note, jump-twitching gets both faster attack speed and glancing blows, and is not only likely to be higher DPS than either method, but is also no harder than just standing still and swinging :P

wax_on_wax_off
04-19-2011, 05:48 PM
@ TheDjinnFor: he did ask if it was worth it on a *fighter*. as i said, it's a bit iffy on a barbarian maybe, but no question on a fighter, you want it.

(also, on a side note, jump-twitching gets both faster attack speed and glancing blows, and is not only likely to be higher DPS than either method, but is also no harder than just standing still and swinging :P

Jump twitching is silly. What you are basically doing is sacrificing your attack chain for the 2 moving attack animations, neither of which is particularly fast.

The fast attack animation is the second standing still one, no other animation has a particularly quick speed. The way to get that animation more often is to twitch properly (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3505706&postcount=26).

Reading there; Vanshilar doesn't mention what the second moving attack animation's time is but he does mention the first which is higher than the average time it takes per attack if you are standing still (and it looks like both moving attacks have a similar speed). Twitching properly gives slightly less DPS than THF'ing and this "jump twitch" style that seems all the rage will just be rubbish in general.

Unless I missed something?

Kinerd
04-19-2011, 05:50 PM
If you can plant your feat and not move from that spot while killing, the line may be usable.For instance, almost every boss fight.
how do you twich?You move so as to break your animation chain. A very detailed explanation can be found here (http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/showpost.php?p=3505706&postcount=26), the one wax_on_wax_off mentioned. (eta: too late! :))
and is it an exploit?It is not a behavior that is prosecuted. What constitutes "an exploit" is very nebulously defined.

Jaid314
04-19-2011, 08:53 PM
Jump twitching is silly. What you are basically doing is sacrificing your attack chain for the 2 moving attack animations, neither of which is particularly fast.

The fast attack animation is the second standing still one, no other animation has a particularly quick speed. The way to get that animation more often is to twitch properly (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3505706&postcount=26).

Reading there; Vanshilar doesn't mention what the second moving attack animation's time is but he does mention the first which is higher than the average time it takes per attack if you are standing still (and it looks like both moving attacks have a similar speed). Twitching properly gives slightly less DPS than THF'ing and this "jump twitch" style that seems all the rage will just be rubbish in general.

Unless I missed something?

you still get glancing blows. you are dealing full "standing still" dps (provided you still hit on a 2+) and get an increase in attack speed (however slight). if perfect twitching gets you to almost as much dps as having the full feat line, then jump twitching (with the full feat line) obviously gets you more, because it deals more than the full feat line alone.

wax_on_wax_off
04-20-2011, 01:10 AM
you still get glancing blows. you are dealing full "standing still" dps (provided you still hit on a 2+) and get an increase in attack speed (however slight). if perfect twitching gets you to almost as much dps as having the full feat line, then jump twitching (with the full feat line) obviously gets you more, because it deals more than the full feat line alone.

I don't see how you would get glancing blows. The attack animations that are used during jump twitching are the same ones you get while moving, these don't have glancing blows attached. Also, the moving attack animations appear to have a lower average swing speed per attack than what the full standing still chain does.

Outcome: less attacks/second, no glancing blows?




attack duration (seconds)
1st 0.621
2nd 0.410
3rd 0.938
4th 0.804
average 0.693

The 1st moving animation is actually not that fast -- around 0.764 seconds -- but the average duration of this loop, the 2nd standing animation + the 1st moving animation, is 0.587 seconds

wax_on_wax_off
04-20-2011, 01:30 AM
Just doing some testing and it looks like while "jump twitching" you get glancing blows on every second hit. Not sure what the mechanic is here as afaik you aren't supposed to get glancing blows on moving attacks (which is what the attacks are when jump twitching).

Modify that to: Slower attack speed, 1/2 glancing blows.
Compared to: faster attack speed standing still or twitching, 3/4 glancing blows when standing still.