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sirgog
04-17-2011, 09:38 AM
Warning - this thread is full of maths. I have a degree in the subject, got to put it to use sometime...


DDOOOOOOOOOM!!! The sky is falling for Sorcs! Let's all cry and /wrists on the forums!

Actually, it isn't. Here's my calculations for Savant damage per second, and damage per full tank of SP.

A note to the Devs - confirmation of these monster statistics (particularly saves) would be useful indeed for confirming that these test cases are accurate.

I'll do three test cases - a competent new player piloting a Sor12 against an overlevel elite quest boss; an ungeared Sor20 taking on Epic Velah, and a seasoned veteran piloting an epic-geared Sor20 in the Elite Horoth/Suulomades encounter.

Some minor errors have been fixed in the thread.

Case 1: Ungeared Sor12 vs. the endboss of Diplomatic Immunity Elite:
Humanoid, no noticeable resists or immunities, no info on saves so I'll guess 22 Fort and 14 Ref

- I've picked this boss as a 'standard' target. Outsiders with high saves and resists are not common foes at this level. OTOH, undead are also common bosses at this level, and our friendly Cold Savant sucks against them.

Assumptions:
- 26 Cha
- Spell DC 20+spell level for Evocation
- 9% cold spell crit chance
- 200% cold spell crit intensity
- +40% cold damage from enhancements (not sure if 35% or 40% is the max possible at 12; if 35%, subtract ~3% from final results)
- +20% acid damage from enhancements
- 50% Superior Glaciation 5 item (veterans will have Sup Freeze 6 but this hypothetical new player does not)
- Spells available: Niac's Biting Cold, Cone of Cold, Icestorm, Frost Lance, Acid Blast. Note no Electric Surge (Cone of Cold is a more useful all-around spell, so even though EES would give better results here, our friend does not use it)
- Reports indicate that spell level increases do not affect Niac's Biting Cold; as such I will assume caster level 12 for it and clvl16 for other spells.
- Player skill is not yet sufficient to use debuffs properly.
- All spells are Max-Empped and not Heightened.

Boost to cold spells: 1.9 (enhancements/potency) x 2.5 (metamagics) x 1.09 (from crits) - spells do 518% of base damage.

Damage per spell:

Niac's SLA - worthless (needs a 1 to fail the save)
Niac's Biting Cold - 15.5 base damage; ~80 damage per tick per stack. Three-stacks for ~240 per tick (for the first 20 seconds this will average 120 per tick). That's 1680 damage per cast, but on an effective 14 second cooldown.
Frost Lance - Our Warchief saves on a 2. Base damage 32 per lance, becomes 165 per failed save, 83 per success - average ~270 damage per cast.
Cone of Cold - Base damage 80, actual damage 410/205. Fails save half the time; average 307 per cast.
Ice Storm - Base damage 17.5, actual damage ~90 per tick. 1350 damage per cast, effective 30 second cooldown.
Acid Blast - base damage 50, actual damage ~212/106. Average ~150 per cast; probably not worth the mana.
Snowball Swarm SLA - base damage 25, actual ~130/65, average ~80 per cast


"Let's Burn Our Mana approach"

Sorc casts the following:
Niac's Biting Cold
Icestorm
Elemental Damage Amplification Curse - Cold
Cone of Cold
Frost Lance
Snowball SLA
(Utility spells or nothing for 2 seconds)
Cone of Cold
Frost Lance
Niac's Biting Cold (2-stack)
Now rotate Cone of Cold, Frost Lance, Snowball SLA and restack Biting Cold when its seventh tick occurs.

Mana use - ~35/second (can't remember Sor12 typical SP - going to assume we have ~35 seconds of this, after which we stop casting and let DoTs finish
Damage output:
Niac's Biting Cold - 2 full 3-stacks (7 ticks each) plus 5 ticks of 1 and 2 stack each - ~4800
Icestorm - 2 casts, ~2700
Cone - 7 casts, 2150 damage
Lance - 7 casts, 1900 damage
Snowball SLA - 7 casts, ~560 damage
All x1.15 for the curse.

- total damage output - about 14000 damage over one minute; almost all within the first 35 seconds. DPS ~230. The damage is frontloaded (i.e. almost all of it within the first 40 seconds after which it's just an Icestorm ticking away and a few ticks of Biting Cold)


"Let's take it slow, and steady" approach
Sorc casts the following:
Niac's Biting Cold
Icestorm
Cold curse
Snowball SLA every four seconds
Biting Cold at 10, 20, 35, 50, 65 etc seconds
Cold curse as needed
Note that due to the spell selection, Heighten Spell can be used (if selected) to improve results. I will assume it is not.

SP usage - ~87 per 15 seconds
Endurance - Assuming 1225 SP (a guess), ~4 minutes

Damage output, all includes curse:
Biting Cold: 130 DPS (includes curse and assumes you do not apply it exactly on time after the 7th tick)
Snowball SLA: 23 DPS
Icestorm: ~50 DPS

Overall - 203 DPS
Total damage output before 1225 SP blown - ~50000. Enough to put a serious dent into Sinvala, even on Elite.

Overall comments:
This sorc will be pulling aggro at this level from Greensteel-equipped TRs, and despite all the nerfs our Savant friends have suffered on Lamannia recently, he still puts out an amount of damage that borders on ridiculous for this content.
The damage output of this sorc is so high that there is no reason to consider taking melees in groups at this level, except out of pity.



Case 2: Ungeared Sor20 vs Epic Velah
Immune to Fire, 25 Reflex save, 33 Fortitude, 350k HP

- chosen as she's the easiest of the endgame bosses, but is a big bucket of hitpoints, meaning that most groups refuse to take more than 1-2 arcanes on Live.


Assumptions:
- 36 Cha (ungeared Drow)
- Spell DC 26+spell level for Evocation
- 18% cold spell crit chance
- 275% cold spell crit intensity
- +50% cold damage from enhancements
- +20% electric damage from enhancements
- 75% Superior Freeze 8 item
- 50% Superior Potency 6 item
- Spells available: Niac's Biting Cold, Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Icestorm, Eladir's Electric Surge, Oitluke's Freezing Sphere
- Reports indicate that spell level increases do not affect Niac's Biting Cold or EES; as such I will assume caster level 20 for it and clvl26 for other cold spells.
- Player skill is sufficient to use Waves of Exhaustion, however due to it not lasting long on Velah, they will elect not to do so
- Upon request, a friendly player will cast Solid Fog on Velah, which is believed to apply a -5 Reflex save penalty. This will not always be active, and as such we will consider her Reflex save to be 23. Edit - it appears that Velah is immune to this effect, so her save is 25.
- All spells are Max-Empped. Heighten is not available.
- Reports conflict on whether the Bloodlines of Power Capstone is applied as a metamagic or an enhancement boost. I will assume a metamagic (as this gives poorer results)
- The player has partially specced into SP conservation on Maximize (-6 SP) and Empower (-2 SP) but has no loot that helps further here.

Boost to cold spells: 2.25 (enhancements/potency) x 2.7 (metamagics) x 1.315 (from crits) - spells do 799% of base damage. As I'm doing the maths here in my head, I'll call that 800%.

Damage per spell:

Niac's SLA - worthless (saves far too often; this isn't an Evocation spell so Spell Focus and a +2 DC item don't apply)
Niac's Biting Cold - 23.5 base damage; ~190 damage per tick per stack. Three-stacks for ~570 per tick (for the first 20 seconds this will average ~280 per tick). That's ~4k damage per cast, but on an effective 14 second cooldown.
Frost Lance SLA - Our Dragon saves on a 2. Base damage 32 per lance, becomes 256 per failed save, 128 per success - average ~400 damage per cast.
Cone of Cold - Base damage 90, actual damage 720/360. Fails save ~20% of the time; average ~440 per cast.
Ice Storm - Base damage 17.5, actual damage ~140 per tick. 2100 damage per cast, effective 30 second cooldown.
Electric Surge - Base damage 23.5 per stack per tick; ~290 per tick when 3-stacked (half damage first 20 seconds). ~2000 per cast beyond the second.
Snowball Swarm SLA - base damage 25, actual ~200/100, average ~110 per cast
Oitiluke's - Base damage 115, actual damage 920/460. Fails save ~25% of the time; average ~575 per cast.
Polar Ray - ~1k per cast


"Let's Burn Our Mana approach"

Sorc casts the following:
Niac's Biting Cold
Icestorm
Elemental Damage Amplification Curse - Cold
Eladir's Electric Surge
Polar Ray
Oitluke's
Cone of Cold
Frost Lance SLA
Snowball SLA
Polar Ray
Biting Cold
Cone of Cold
Electric Surge
Now rotate Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Snowball SLA, Frost Lance SLA and restack Biting Cold and Electric Surge when its seventh tick occurs.

Mana use - ~60/second (43 seconds until OOM)
Damage output:
Niac's Biting Cold - 2 full 3-stacks (7 ticks each) plus 5 ticks of 1 and 2 stack each - ~11000
Electric Surge (similar) - ~5500
Icestorm - 2 casts, ~4200
Oitluke's - 8 casts, 4600 damage
Cone of Cold - 7 casts, 3100 damage
Polar Ray - 8 casts, 8000 damage
Lance SLA - 5 casts, 2000 damage
Snowball SLA - 8 casts, ~880 damage
All x1.15 for the curse.

- total damage output - about 44000 damage over one minute; almost all within the first 35 seconds. DPS ~730. The damage is heavily frontloaded again.


"Let's take it slow, and steady" approach
Sorc casts the following:
Niac's Biting Cold
Icestorm
Cold curse
Electric Surge
Snowball SLA every four seconds
Frost Lance SLA every 8 seconds
Biting Cold at 10, 20, 35, 50, 65 etc seconds
Cold curse as needed
Note that due to the spell selection, Heighten Spell can be used (if the feat was taken) to improve results. I will assume it is not. Results with Heighten are slightly more ridiculous than those without.

SP usage - ~150 per 15 seconds
Endurance - Assuming 2500SP, ~4 minutes

Damage output, all includes curse:
Biting Cold: 310 DPS (includes curse and assumes you do not apply it exactly on time after the 7th tick)
Electric Surge: 140 DPS
Frost Lance SLA: 50 DPS
Icestorm: ~70 DPS
Snowball SLA: ~30 DPS

Overall - 600 DPS
Total damage output before SP blown - ~150000. Enough to do over 40% of Velah's HP in damage (before her regeneration is considered).

Overall comments:
Even on a savant that is not specced for it, Electric Surge is insanely OP. Niac's Biting Cold is worse still, by far. With those spells our friendly Savant dominates this raid. Without them, he would be a total gimp.
These numbers do not take into account the movement components of the Velah fight, which in practice reduce melee DPS by ~15% and caster DPS by ~7-10% (these figures are estimates only).
IMO those two spells could both be safely pushed up to level 9 spells, thus removing the easily-attained 75% potency items for them. Alternately, they should at the very least share a cooldown so that a caster cannot maintain both of them.
As is presently stands, there is no reason to consider bringing melees to this raid now, except to conserve SP on the pillars and to prevent Velah's cometfall.


Case 3: Epic Geared Sor20 vs Elite Horoth Immune to Fire, 80 Resist Cold - 65 effective, 29 base Reflex save + 4 for Shavarath = 33 effective Reflex Save, 41 effective Fortitude save, 350k HP.
Sorc build is The Chilblain - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=307720, and has all useful past lives.

- chosen as this is a fight against the paragon of outsiders - a foe with insane saves, HP and elemental resistances. Basically the last thing you would normally point a Savant at and expect good results.

- still to come; but my estimates are that this will have slightly lower damage output than the Velah encounter, due to Sorcs just not scaling well with gear. Some preliminary estiamtes are in the Chilblain thread, however, that thread is based on the initial Lamannia U9 build, not the present one, and contains some errors too.

Wurmwood
04-17-2011, 10:08 AM
Nice work and thanks for taking the time to do this. Was this the average damage on the bosses based off of a few runs? Or did you repeat multiple times to get a consistent average. The reason I ask is that overall the damage output is going to vary depending on how often the boss makes saves (which on some days seems like always)

Also, having an arcane in the party will most likely have everyone expecting you to buff them, taking about 10%-15% of your mana. And how the heck did you get 36 cha ungeared?

sirgog
04-17-2011, 10:16 AM
Nice work and thanks for taking the time to do this. Was this the average damage on the bosses based off of a few runs? Or did you repeat multiple times to get a consistent average. The reason I ask is that overall the damage output is going to vary depending on how often the boss makes saves (which on some days seems like always)

Also, having an arcane in the party will most likely have everyone expecting you to buff them, taking about 10%-15% of your mana. And how the heck did you get 36 cha ungeared?

36 Cha = 20 base (drow) + 6 item + 5 levelup + 3 enhancement + 2 tome.

All DPS numbers are probabalistically determined (e.g. if the boss saves 45% of the time, the stats compute the average results of 55 failed saves and 45 saves). Lucky/unlucky streaks will cause wide variance in short fights, just as a 10th level Paladin with a Carnifex should crit 20% of the time, but sometimes will crit 10 or 30 times in a string of 100 attacks. These are not damage parses from actual fights.

This data assumes that your party role mimics that of a barbarian - you are invited to the party solely to do damage. Any utility you bring will come at a cost in damage, just as a Fighter that invests into Intimidate for raid/group utility will do less damage than one that does not. However, if you do 140000 damage to Epic Velah in four minutes, you have outclassed any DPS only melee that might be in the party.

In reality I'd expect most casters will continue to spend ~10% of their SP on buffs, reducing these results.

sephiroth1084
04-17-2011, 11:12 AM
Warning - this thread is full of maths. I have a degree in the subject You know, I suspected as much and kept meaning to ask about it. Nice to get the confirmation. :)

Quick! First 100 digits of Pi without looking! GO!

Arctigis
04-17-2011, 12:20 PM
*groan* not ANOTHER one of these threads...

BoP most definitely stacks as a metamagic.

Maintaining Niac's + Eladar's has to be done whilst staying alive, doing other stuff etc. It's a single target
spell - perhaps it shouldn't stack at all? However, it certainly didn't feel that OP yesterday against Epic mobs with
~50 other people joining in. I seriously suggest you try these things out rather than just claim they are
OP. It is quite expensive to maintain as well.

CoC currently doesn't scale. If it did, it would only scale to 18d3 + 54 on your ungeared Sorc. so quite where
you get a base damage of 115 from I really don't know. The base damage for CoC is still 75 (90 if it scaled).

Otiluke's does scale to CL23. You seem to be confusing the increase to CL with the increase to MCL. The only
spell that benefits fully is Polar Ray. You'd need the ToD set to get anything more out of Otilukes (I think Abishai,
Winter's Wrath, Epic Staff of Arcane power are increases to CL not MCL; I could be wrong here though, I don't
play epics). Base Damage for Otiluke's is currently 115 - it's now a nice spell - like Chain Lightning should be.

Solid Fog benefit is -5 reflex save. I'm almost 100% sure that red name and above are immune to this affect
(as they are not slowed). It certainly wasn't showing as a debuff when I tested this a few days ago.

What does your base damage for Ice Storm consist of?

Why no heighten? (L20 example)




...This sorc will be pulling aggro at this level from Greensteel-equipped TRs..


Exactly! ;) (this is not a good thing)

GotSomeQuestions
04-17-2011, 12:26 PM
Solid Fog benefit is -5 reflex save. I'm almost 100% sure that red name and above are immune to this affect (as they are not slowed). It certainly wasn't showing as a debuff when I tested this a few days ago.
I tried it in the Blood Plate fight in Chrono normal (since that was my quickest access to a purple name). The trash showed both the concealment debuff and the reflex debuff. BP himself showed neither.

jkm
04-17-2011, 01:34 PM
Heh, i'm noticing there is no drop in dps for spell fizzles. The geometry of that quest is a nightmare to get rays to hit targets, especially if he gets on the ramparts. Lets not even get into hitting a charging minotaur or keeping him in the AoEs.

[PS I know they said they fixed ray targeting, but unless they allow rays to pass through the geometry of the quest, you are still going to get fizzles. Rays target the Mob "Bottom Disc- the one on the floor when on solid objects" from your "Middle Disc - the one waste high when you are in water" and if there is any obstruction between the 2, the spell fizzles even if you can see 90% of the mob. Stair geometry sucks for this.]

THOTHdha
04-17-2011, 02:59 PM
This is interesting to consider. Will be nice to see how things actually shake out and end up being used on Live.


Heh, i'm noticing there is no drop in dps for spell fizzles. The geometry of that quest is a nightmare to get rays to hit targets, especially if he gets on the ramparts. Lets not even get into hitting a charging minotaur or keeping him in the AoEs.

*confused* Minotaur? Ramparts? Methinks you are thinking of the wrong quest.

sirgog
04-17-2011, 07:20 PM
My responses all in yellow.


*groan* not ANOTHER one of these threads...

Yes, another one. (Actually the only thread detailing post-nerf overall DPS). Casters are so overpowered on Lamannia now (even after the recent wave of pretty hefty nerfs) that there is almost no reason to consider playing a melee, even in the 'endurance' fights like eVON6. Even the 12th level Sorc puts out more DPS than some 20th level ungeared toons.
If casters are not nerfed further before this gets live, the Barbarian looking to improve their DPS has no alternative other than to TR into a sorc and effectively lose all their gear. Better that the nerfs that are needed happen before the update goes to the live servers.

BoP most definitely stacks as a metamagic.

Maintaining Niac's + Eladar's has to be done whilst staying alive, doing other stuff etc. It's a single target
spell - perhaps it shouldn't stack at all? However, it certainly didn't feel that OP yesterday against Epic mobs with
~50 other people joining in. I seriously suggest you try these things out rather than just claim they are
OP. It is quite expensive to maintain as well.

I've tested the spells on Lama (well, the cold and light ones at least; didn't have a scroll of EES) to ensure they actually did the damage they said they did. This was on a Wizard and a FvS respectively, neither of whom were geared/specced for the spells, and they were still insane.
According to reports the epic Arraetrikos in the event had 300+ cold resist, not surprised that it sucked there.
70 SP per 15 sec (less with gear) is not expensive for the damage output you get. If these spells cost 125SP Max-Empped they would still be the best thing you could do with your mana.
Yes you need to stay alive. That is even more true on a melee class, who loses Haste, Inspire Courage and important defensive buffs like Resists upon a death. Maintaining these DoTs while doing other things is not difficult, and melee classes need to do similar things (e.g. maintain Divine Favor/Barb rage/Power Surge; use Divine Sacrifice on cooldown, manouver to the back of the boss every time it turns unless you have pulled aggro, alert the party that Haste/InspireCourage/Recklessness/Rage is about to expire and switch to an Improved Destruction weapon every 30 seconds if the boss has a 65+ AC)

CoC currently doesn't scale. If it did, it would only scale to 18d3 + 54 on your ungeared Sorc. so quite where
you get a base damage of 115 from I really don't know. The base damage for CoC is still 75 (90 if it scaled).

115 was a mistake. Fixed to the intended damage (90); this had almost no effect on the overall damage as Cone is such a weak spell for single-target use. Even if the spell goes live at 75 not 90, well there is next to no change.

Otiluke's does scale to CL23. You seem to be confusing the increase to CL with the increase to MCL. The only
spell that benefits fully is Polar Ray. You'd need the ToD set to get anything more out of Otilukes (I think Abishai,
Winter's Wrath, Epic Staff of Arcane power are increases to CL not MCL; I could be wrong here though, I don't
play epics). Base Damage for Otiluke's is currently 115 - it's now a nice spell - like Chain Lightning should be.

Solid Fog benefit is -5 reflex save. I'm almost 100% sure that red name and above are immune to this affect
(as they are not slowed). It certainly wasn't showing as a debuff when I tested this a few days ago.

What does your base damage for Ice Storm consist of?

10.5 cold + 7 bludgeoning (or the other way around). Both components are personally confirmed to benefit from cold enhancements and Freeze items.

Why no heighten? (L20 example)

Not every nuker takes the feat. Taking the feat would only improve damage per second results.


Exactly! ;) (this is not a good thing)

That they can take aggro from a 15th level melee whose gear outclasses theirs really says something. An ungeared Bbn12 cannot ever take aggro from a skilfully played, highly geared Ftr15 unless the Fighter lets them.

Mjesko
04-18-2011, 12:42 AM
IMO those two spells could both be safely pushed up to level 9 spells, thus removing the easily-attained 75% potency items for them. Alternately, they should at the very least share a cooldown so that a caster cannot maintain both of them.


I think this point shows a problem of the current spell design. It should be as easy to get 75 % potency for low level spells as for high level spells, because the high level spells should be more powerful than the low level spells.

Shade
04-18-2011, 01:22 AM
This sorc will be pulling aggro at this level from Greensteel-equipped TRs, and despite all the nerfs our Savant friends have suffered on Lamannia recently, he still puts out an amount of damage that borders on ridiculous for this content.
The damage output of this sorc is so high that there is no reason to consider taking melees in groups at this level, except out of pity..

ok yea from that comment. youve finally lost all touch with this game.

Average non tr sorc at lvl in diplomatic immunity elite casting a large variety of nuke spells?

Hes gonna die a lot.

He's not gonna outperfm TR melee. Even your impossibly perfect unrealistic full mana dump will never ever happen in game projection of 230 dps is also less then what a solid tr melee can do at that level.

I dont even need to explain this. anyone whos played this game a bit and ever pugs with casters knows. It wont change in u9.

All these useless maths that assume 100% flawless execution , no missess due to monster movemetn, targetitng etc:
Worthles to anyone who understands this game. Spell casting is extremely variable, and far more difficult to pull off then melee.

No one in there right mind is gonna be looking for nukes sorcs on at lvl elite quests, and expecting them to outkill tr mleees. They will take the sorc for all the same reason they take them now, or deny them for all the same reaosns.

Bottom line:
Less maths from people whos sigs include huge support for non-sorcerer classes. I dont care if your math degree is over 9000. Numbers are easy to manipulate to help prove points, anyone can do it. Yours arent special.

sirgog
04-18-2011, 01:43 AM
ok yea from that comment. youve finally lost all touch with this game.

Average non tr sorc at lvl in diplomatic immunity elite casting a large variety of nuke spells?

Hes gonna die a lot.

He's not gonna outperfm TR melee.

I dont even need to explain this. anyone whos played this game a bit and ever pugs with casters knows. It wont change in u9.

All these useless maths that assume 100% flawless execution , no missess due to monster movemetn, targetitng etc:
WORTHLESS TO ANYONE WHO UNDERSTANDS THIS GAME.

Anyone who understands this game knows that a caster with Displacement on can be easily healed through that boss's damage by a typical PUG cleric as long as they have Heavy Fortification. Just stand still and take a beating. And spell targetting has been significantly improved in U9.

I adjusted numbers downward slightly for non-flawless execution. Note my Niacs numbers assume 7 ticks per 15 seconds, not 7 ticks per 14 seconds as would be the case for optimal, zero-latency play. OTOH I've seen you make posts in threads (pre-U5) where you calculated DPS assuming 100% perfect twitch play.

The only assumption I made that might be invalid is that no spells are lost to interruption. An interrupted Biting Cold is a severe DPS loss, which is why I didn't use a target like Sinvala (who spams trips on her main aggro target) for calculation. But even if 15% of non-Biting Cold spells are lost to interruption (and the caster is careful to cast NBC at times when it will not be interrupted), savants are still doing so much sustained DPS that there is almost no reason to weaken a raid group by allowing melees in.

If 600+ sustained DPS Sorcs to make the live servers, then there will be almost no reason to play a melee class at all. Melees will be back to where they were in the Mod 5 days (level cap 14) when a group with a cleric and four casters would prefer a fifth caster or a second cleric to taking a melee.


I have no problem with the current Savant mechanics as a whole (some aspects could even be buffed), but the two insanely overpowered new spells need to be hit with the nerf bat, hard. I hate the term 'easy button', but that is EXACTLY what these spells are; just like Firewall was an 'easy button' before it was nerfed in Mod 6.1 (preventing multiple firewalls in one place from all dealing full damage), or just like Mass Hold Person was an 'easy button' when the endgame was Gianthold.

As Madfloyd says, no challenge, no fun.

Shade
04-18-2011, 01:55 AM
Anyone who understands this game knows that a caster with Displacement on can be easily healed through that boss's damage by a typical PUG cleric as long as they have Heavy Fortification.
Like i said, lost touch.
Typical pug:
Displacement? Whats that.
I got blur. it lasts longer.
Heavy fort? never heard of it.
Heal the sorc? hes on the other side of the map out of range.
Typical pug. Your calcs are for a typical pug too, becaue you dont include any sp for buffs.

What us veterans can do isn't useful. Nor is what the best case scenario math says.


I adjusted numbers downward slightly for non-flawless execution. Note my Niacs numbers assume 7 ticks per 15 seconds, not 7 ticks per 14 seconds as would be the case for optimal, zero-latency play.
thats not non flawless execution, thats making it nearly possible for non-mililtary androids. Tho i still think theyd have a hard time matching up to your ideals. Remember, adroid hell is s real place.

Non flawless excecution not only means slower then flawless keyboard presses, but it means actaul complete misses due to monster movement. Then taking off about 80% of the dps, cuz the sorc died. DPS drops a lot when your dead.

Why did he die? Your calcs dont include sp for casting that so called displacement spell. They use all the SP on pure dps remember?



OTOH I've seen you make posts in threads (pre-U5) where you calculated DPS assuming 100% perfect twitch play.
I avoid doing math like the plague. All my dps related info is based on pure ingame results and videos. I dont believe in numbers for such a complex topic.


The only assumption I made that might be invalid is that no spells are lost to interruption.
No, thats only 1 of a billion assupmtions you made. DDO is a very complex game.


If 600+ sustained DPS Sorcs to make the live servers, then there will be almost no reason to play a melee class at all.
Random point is random. (also wrong, even if it was true, there would be a ton of reasons to play mele, the point is just ludicrous)
You've done nothing to make that point accurate. You've tossed outa buncha figures, without showing any evidcen that its true.
Straight false made up numbers far as I can tell, as they dont evne come close to matching up with others like monkeyarchers, who seems much more level headeda bout these things.



As Madfloyd says, no challenge, no fun.

Sorcs are ultra challenging to play well. Maybe you should actaully try it, before askign for the nerfs.
Go solo somethign epic with your so called "600+ sustained dps" post up a screenshot, and then well talk.

Until then, i dont think you care about challenge, so much as keeping your prefered class (FvS) stronger then your non prefered class (sorc)
That much is blantly obvious.. Being an exacly like spell (Divine punishment) works nearly identical to the spells you want nerfed, yet you failed to mention it... And happens to be available to a much more powerful overall class, relied on for every single quest in the game for obvious reasons.

abbadon3718
04-18-2011, 02:11 AM
What does it matter? You're still never going to see 5 caster/1 cleric groups. I would love to just run around in 6 man pm groups just for the hell of it but it won't happen on thelanis for the same reason you will never see 6 savants or 6 FS in a group. People don't do it regularly in pugs and I haven't heard of more than a handfull of guild runs that have done it just for a laugh. Don't jump on the nerf band wagon just because 1 guild of uber players with epic gear did something on lam just because they could. Live parties will still be live parties of mixed classes. And again, I'm getting bored of people bringing up things like displacement that have absolutely no bearing on raid bosses. Are there really that many non-raid fights that you're seriously concerned with end game? Hey lets all complain about monks because 12 of them can stunning fist every mob and they can all ToD a raid boss at the same time and they will live forever because of evasion and silver flame heal potions. You seen any 12 monk raids lately? You think there is anything 12 uber monks with twink gear and unlimited resources couldn't do? I'm sure there are enough players that have mastered this game well enough that they could get 12 rouges together and pull off TOD elite if they tried. Should we nerf sneak attack and evasion?

sirgog
04-18-2011, 02:21 AM
Until then, i dont think you care about challenge, so much as keeping your prefered class (FvS) stronger then your non prefered class (sorc)

Divine Punishment and post U9 insta-cast Bladebarrier are also both insanely overpowered (yes, even with the minor nerf to BB). Divine Punishment needs to be hit with the nerfbat too, for exactly the same reasons, and I'd assumed that any change to Biting Cold or Electric Surge will hit Divine Punishment too.

I had a Sorc as a main for a long time (they are presently a Wizard). They were my main in the Mod 5 days when Wall of Fire let you solo almost everything. I want to TR them back into a Sorc sometime and would play them in a 'nuker with utility' role. I can definitely say that playing them competently (as opposed to perfectly) is not difficult.


If the Devs let the current Savants onto Live (really just the three stacking DoT spells that cause all the problems; without them Savants aren't overpowered), they are in a terrible dilemma. Any future content that has a 'DPS race' component (mechanics like 'kill this boss inside 120 seconds or you get overwhelmed by respawning adds', such as the Into the Deep Hezrou) will either be trivially easy for Savant-heavy groups, or if they are tuned to be tougher, they will be impossible for melee-heavy groups to beat at all. Shroud PUGs will say 'need DPS' and will accept only Sorcs.

Then to fix that, they have to either buff melee DPS to the new caster level; or they need to whack the nerfbat hard, ruining the builds of characters on the live servers; or they need to avoid adding any DPS races into encounter design.



As for your comments about PUGs - well, there's 10% of them that are truly as god-awful as you say. The other 90% are at least competent enough to keep a displaced caster alive against a mid-level quest boss without true seeing. Casting Heal every ten seconds is not at all difficult; most PUGgers can do that while also doing other useful things like Bladebarriering/Greater Commanding adds, or raising someone that died to a trap.


Oh and I have tested the numbers for one of the offending spells on Lamannia too, on a Wizard as that is all I have there. In-game numbers observed were close to spreadsheet numbers.

Saravis
04-18-2011, 02:39 AM
Shroud PUGs will say 'need DPS' and will accept only Sorcs.


And our current situation is better? I'm getting tired of the "need DPS" "melee only" that plagues the servers. While I understand that your topic isn't regarding the Savants directly, the fact of the matter is the Savants are supposed to be DPS focused, but without spells like the new DoT ones, our DPS is still going to be considered subpar in comparison to melee and the situation won't change. I'm tired of not being accepted into Vale because they already have their one or two casters, I'm tired of not being able to run ToD because they already have a kiter. I am utterly sick and tired of not being considered DPS. If it takes a couple of "overpowered" spells to kick the mentality of what is DPS into readjustment, so that people stop limiting party structures so much, then so be it.

/end rant

shagath
04-18-2011, 03:49 AM
And our current situation is better? I'm getting tired of the "need DPS" "melee only" that plagues the servers. While I understand that your topic isn't regarding the Savants directly, the fact of the matter is the Savants are supposed to be DPS focused, but without spells like the new DoT ones, our DPS is still going to be considered subpar in comparison to melee and the situation won't change. I'm tired of not being accepted into Vale because they already have their one or two casters, I'm tired of not being able to run ToD because they already have a kiter. I am utterly sick and tired of not being considered DPS. If it takes a couple of "overpowered" spells to kick the mentality of what is DPS into readjustment, so that people stop limiting party structures so much, then so be it.

/end rantI agree totally +1.


As Madfloyd says, no challenge, no fun.It's fun if challenge comes from other sources than the game itself trying to block dps class being considered dps for raids.

Arctigis
04-18-2011, 04:23 AM
... Casters are so overpowered on Lamannia now (even after the recent wave of pretty hefty nerfs) that there is almost no reason to consider playing a melee, even in the 'endurance' fights like eVON6. Even the 12th level Sorc puts out more DPS than some 20th level ungeared toons.
If casters are not nerfed further before this gets live, the Barbarian looking to improve their DPS has no alternative other than to TR into a sorc and effectively lose all their gear. Better that the nerfs that are needed happen before the update goes to the live servers.


ZOMG, Noooooooooooo.

Seriously?. Barbs are going to TR into Sorcs?

So, are we talking about Cold Savant's or casters?. I think we both know that the only thing
making the DPS numbers look good is the new stacking DoTs - which are not savant specific. Honestly,
maintaining whilst trying to stay alive isn't always straightforward. In any case, they are highly situational
spells - under what circumstances are you ever going to stack these three times? End fights only I think.




Yes you need to stay alive. That is even more true on a melee class, who loses Haste, Inspire Courage and important defensive buffs like Resists upon a death. Maintaining these DoTs while doing other things is not difficult, and melee classes need to do similar things (e.g. maintain Divine Favor/Barb rage/Power Surge; use Divine Sacrifice on cooldown, manouver to the back of the boss every time it turns unless you have pulled aggro, alert the party that Haste/InspireCourage/Recklessness/Rage is about to expire and switch to an Improved Destruction weapon every 30 seconds if the boss has a 65+ AC)


Right. Is it ever flawless? Is there always something you forgot to do or missed?
What about concentration checks?
What about trip/stunning blow/cometfall etc.



10.5 cold + 7 bludgeoning (or the other way around). Both components are personally confirmed to benefit from cold enhancements and Freeze items.


Right. Base damage for cold is 1d6 + 10 (13) (13.5)(16.5) average, 2D6 for Bludgeon (7 average). Only the
cold portion is affected by the curse. This was on an L20. The spell description and dice are currently mismatched.



Why no heighten? (L20 example)
Not every nuker takes the feat. Taking the feat would only improve damage per second results.


Sounds very wrong to me. I don't know any nuker (with primarily reflex save based spells) which
would not take heighten and leave it on all the time.



That they can take aggro from a 15th level melee whose gear outclasses theirs really says something. An ungeared Bbn12 cannot ever take aggro from a skilfully played, highly geared Ftr15 unless the Fighter lets them.

I guess you'll be posting your vid showing this happening soon?. You've made a lot of assumptions on this
one.

Out of interest, how do the calculations look without Niac's/Eladar's and adding heighten?. Not so impressive
I'd imagine.

sirgog
04-18-2011, 04:29 AM
And our current situation is better? I'm getting tired of the "need DPS" "melee only" that plagues the servers. While I understand that your topic isn't regarding the Savants directly, the fact of the matter is the Savants are supposed to be DPS focused, but without spells like the new DoT ones, our DPS is still going to be considered subpar in comparison to melee and the situation won't change. I'm tired of not being accepted into Vale because they already have their one or two casters, I'm tired of not being able to run ToD because they already have a kiter. I am utterly sick and tired of not being considered DPS. If it takes a couple of "overpowered" spells to kick the mentality of what is DPS into readjustment, so that people stop limiting party structures so much, then so be it.

/end rant

The current situation on live is pretty bad too, although Sorcs are just fine as a 'medium DPS, high utility' role in anything except the bigger endurance fights - hard/elite ToD, elite VoD and a couple of epics. That said, sorcs are in need of buffing compared to their status on Live.

Most people that won't accept a third Sorc to Shroud are reacting to all the terrible casters that finish part 4 with 85% of their SP left.



Out of interest, how do the calculations look without Niac's/Eladar's and adding heighten?. Not so impressive I'd imagine.


TBH I'd rather they nerf the two new broken spells (and the divine equivalent) hard, then restore the SLAs to what they were initially on Lama-land, then change curses to 3-stacking 10% increases. That's a solid buff to the class compared to live, but not the total ridiculous situation that we have now.

Mjesko
04-18-2011, 05:12 AM
TBH I'd rather they nerf the two new broken spells (and the divine equivalent) hard, then restore the SLAs to what they were initially on Lama-land, then change curses to 3-stacking 10% increases. That's a solid buff to the class compared to live, but not the total ridiculous situation that we have now.

I think that is a very good suggestion, but all SLAs should be changed and not only the SLAs of the Sorcerer.

Killdaelf
04-18-2011, 05:57 AM
Oh... another "My flawless math say this must be nerfed"

To be viable this require:
a perfect execution
on a nearly static
single target
with a full mana bar.


The actual situation is a bit different, on lamannia sorcerers are very good against bosses and not so much against trash.

The perfect rotation is impossible on the trash of which quests are full, hence perfect DPS goes down drastically. Stacking 3 of each dot is not an option, so the best/worst spells aren`t an issue most of the time.
We have SLA more than live, very nice sure, but far from overpowered, and not as good as melee.

Against bosses which are more close to ideal targets the dps is very good as most of the mathematicians showed us.
Take that away and we are back to square one

bryanmeerkat
04-18-2011, 05:58 AM
Umm , I am sure what you meant to say was DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!

If you go posting that its still actually going to be good you know the BAT will come for it!

Xyfiel
04-18-2011, 06:05 AM
The current situation on live is pretty bad too, although Sorcs are just fine as a 'medium DPS, high utility' role in anything except the bigger endurance fights - hard/elite ToD, elite VoD and a couple of epics. That said, sorcs are in need of buffing compared to their status on Live.

Most people that won't accept a third Sorc to Shroud are reacting to all the terrible casters that finish part 4 with 85% of their SP left.




TBH I'd rather they nerf the two new broken spells (and the divine equivalent) hard, then restore the SLAs to what they were initially on Lama-land, then change curses to 3-stacking 10% increases. That's a solid buff to the class compared to live, but not the total ridiculous situation that we have now.

No need to nerf divines. They don't have multiple mass instakills, or mass holds, or tons of cc options. Their dps options all pale in comparison to an arcane. Searing light and divine punishment spam is nothing compared to cold/electic/acid dots and polar ray spam. Less enhancement/item options also. Factor in I had to take 3 heal spells on my Fvs or chance not getting into raids and having to use them lowering the dps further. I don't see how you think caster specced divines are suddenly gaining so much to be overpowered.

Edit: no curses or sla's either

Rodasch
04-18-2011, 06:26 AM
... my Fvs...

Edit: no curses or sla's either

You might want to re-think that combination of statements if you want to be taken seriously.

Xyfiel
04-18-2011, 07:32 AM
You might want to re-think that combination of statements if you want to be taken seriously.

Technically your right, but I don't even factor those in so they slipped my mind. The curse procs so little it is close to useless(self tested on lam). The searing light capstone is only one option out of many for divine casters. It is not a popular option, even the top evoker builds on the forums take the host. I can't recall seeing anyone use the searing light capstone on a regular basis.

Myself I have 2monk, so no capstone. I will be bb kiting with wings and 80+ Ac except for some raids and some epics. The curse will be useless to me in most situations.

Ridag
04-18-2011, 08:11 AM
Ok so what it boils down to is that you feel that the 3 new DoTs they've added in U9 are too strong, even if they were level 9 spells. Yet you target your thread specifically at cold savant damage, this is where I have a disconnect...

Why bother running these scenarios? A naked sorc? A level 12 in Diplomatic Impunity?!?

People play the game as a whole, not one quest endlessly. There are places where a focused caster will shine, and places they will not.

Personally I feel that the new DoTs are fine, and should be strong, because in 98% of current content the target will be dead before it has ticked two or three times.

Aashrym
04-18-2011, 12:21 PM
Technically your right, but I don't even factor those in so they slipped my mind. The curse procs so little it is close to useless(self tested on lam). The searing light capstone is only one option out of many for divine casters. It is not a popular option, even the top evoker builds on the forums take the host. I can't recall seeing anyone use the searing light capstone on a regular basis.

Myself I have 2monk, so no capstone. I will be bb kiting with wings and 80+ Ac except for some raids and some epics. The curse will be useless to me in most situations.

I don't know anyone using the searing light capstone but I plan on trying it out. I don't have a capped FvS to check it out on and I'm a fan of trying things out on my own. Might be one of my gimpier experiments, I'll have to see. :D

Arctigis
04-18-2011, 12:36 PM
Personally I feel that the new DoTs are fine, and should be strong, because in 98% of current content the target will be dead before it has ticked two or three times.

They should be strong because they are single target, have a long cooldown and take effort to maintain. They
are also highly situational. As you rightly point out, they have nothing to do with Savants. The DPS characteristics
look a lot different without them yet every 'Savants are OP' thread seems to include them.

A non-savant could stack Melf's, WoF, Acid Rain, Eladar's, Niac's and Burning Blood without any caster level penalty. I
bet that's pretty good DPS.

Basically, a sorcs DPS should be a function of how fast their blue bar is shrinking. They should be able to choose
to burn brightly for a short time or dimly for a longer period.

Traver
04-18-2011, 01:30 PM
I don't know anyone using the searing light capstone but I plan on trying it out. I don't have a capped FvS to check it out on and I'm a fan of trying things out on my own. Might be one of my gimpier experiments, I'll have to see. :D

I tried it out and switched back to host the next week.

At least with my playstyle, you can't beat a free heal. You can get more sp with torq/con opp, and it seemed a lot more effective to let the archon/bb/dp get that dmg for you.

Chai
04-18-2011, 02:09 PM
If 600+ sustained DPS Sorcs to make the live servers, then there will be almost no reason to play a melee class at all. Melees will be back to where they were in the Mod 5 days (level cap 14) when a group with a cleric and four casters would prefer a fifth caster or a second cleric to taking a melee.

What would you put the percentage of casters at who can no longer rely on firewall as a crutch, who will be able to pull off this near flawless execution of chain spell casting?

I bet you dont put it at the same place I put it.

We are talking about casters having twitch skills above and beyond the NascarĀ® strategy - run fast and turn left, which go far beyond the melee twitch skills needed to play.

When THF twitch was better DPS in all case scenarios, I rarely saw anyone playing with it other than the high end players, and even then, only about half of that small percentage perfected it to the point where they could keep it going at will. What it will take to play a sorc at this level of proficiency will go far above and beyond what it took to interrupt a THF attack chain every two swings. Sorcs wont be able to lock down targets using pattern based motion like a melee could. I bet the top 5-7% will reach close to the numbers you are calculating here, while the rest, due to playstyle, will fall further behind percentage wise than the melee players who similarly do not pay attention to economy of movement and order of operations.

Those who do master the playstyle will likely hit your numbers. What percentage of the in game population do you think this is?

Shade
04-18-2011, 05:09 PM
Those who do master the playstyle will likely hit your numbers. What percentage of the in game population do you think this is?

I just tried it ingame for myself in von1. I consider myself a good twitch player. My sorcs pretty well geared, 44 cha.. all relevant clickies, even got the new robe for +1 cl, and epic staff (tho the epic staff didnt seem to even work on evocation spells, only the robe did, so I got CL21/27)

My fingers could not move fast enough, I couldnt maintain anywhere near that level of dps , especially while the freaking epic mobs were chasing my ass down. Even with a Dc40 enchant doc mas holding all the **** and spaming stuff like mad, I didnt feel that powerful. It still took a while to kill things, far longer then my barb could in many cases.

If anything, it was far less effecient an less effective then the pre U5 harder epic, without minion debuff, without -50 hp.. Just by crit fishing wall of fire, I was far more effecient at killing things, and nearly as fast.

On non epic, I get even LESS dps, because everythings dead long before I can add any 2nd/3rd tics of those spells. And If I want them to REALLY die fast, im burnign thru sp faster then i can reach a shrine on any actually chalening elite quest.

His numbers are theoretical nonsense that even advanced miiltary androids will never achieve. Let alone the unwashed masses of DDO.

crazydamage
04-18-2011, 06:47 PM
I just tried it ingame for myself in von1. I consider myself a good twitch player. My sorcs pretty well geared, 44 cha.. all relevant clickies, even got the new robe for +1 cl, and epic staff (tho the epic staff didnt seem to even work on evocation spells, only the robe did, so I got CL21/27)

My fingers could not move fast enough, I couldnt maintain anywhere near that level of dps , especially while the freaking epic mobs were chasing my ass down. Even with a Dc40 enchant doc mas holding all the **** and spaming stuff like mad, I didnt feel that powerful. It still took a while to kill things, far longer then my barb could in many cases.

If anything, it was far less effecient an less effective then the pre U5 harder epic, without minion debuff, without -50 hp.. Just by crit fishing wall of fire, I was far more effecient at killing things, and nearly as fast.

On non epic, I get even LESS dps, because everythings dead long before I can add any 2nd/3rd tics of those spells. And If I want them to REALLY die fast, im burnign thru sp faster then i can reach a shrine on any actually chalening elite quest.

His numbers are theoretical nonsense that even advanced miiltary androids will never achieve. Let alone the unwashed masses of DDO.

Cycling through 6 buttons on a raid boss isn't hard. That's all he's talking about.

Ridag
04-18-2011, 06:56 PM
Cycling through 6 buttons on a raid boss isn't hard. That's all he's talking about.

It's still not going to be as smooth as it's written out, it never is.

How much of a casters game play is spent casting on raid bosses, >1%?

Playing a nuking caster is a highly mobile twitch experience in the majority of content, and it is not easy to pull off successfully and maintain maximum effectiveness. There are very few situations where you will putting out optimal DPS, so you get a break here and there on raid bosses, it's not like melee have to jump through hoops during those fights either.

Egeus
04-18-2011, 07:02 PM
Cycling through 6 buttons on a raid boss isn't hard. That's all he's talking about.

It's funny how 95% of content is not raid bosses.

"Please accept my sorc into your raid! He'll pike for 10-30 minutes, and might do marginally better than a barbarian for the last 1-3, if the boss's resistances align and he doesn't pull aggro and die because the cleric is focused on the barb!"

crazydamage
04-18-2011, 07:59 PM
It's funny how 95% of content is not raid bosses.

"Please accept my sorc into your raid! He'll pike for 10-30 minutes, and might do marginally better than a barbarian for the last 1-3, if the boss's resistances align and he doesn't pull aggro and die because the cleric is focused on the barb!"

It's funny how Wail and Finger dominate the other 95% of content that ISNT raid bosses.

The only thing poorly played/geared arcanes were complaining about was feeling useless at raid bosses.

It's more like
"Please accept my godly Arcane into your shroud, he'll dominate trash, solo a lieutenant/Crystal, unlock all the puzzles, dominate arretrikos in parts 4/5"
"Please accept my godly Arcane into your ToD, he'll kite jailer, kite shadows, and solo orthons or reconstruct in part 3"
"Please accept my godly Arcane into your VoD, he'll CC all trash and reconstruct"
"Please accept my godly Arcane into your hound, he'll buff, kite all trash"
"Please accept my godly Arcane to your reaver - no wait nevermind I can just solo it"


And to these things you can now add
"he will DPS using SLAs"

crazydamage
04-18-2011, 08:00 PM
It's still not going to be as smooth as it's written out, it never is.

How much of a casters game play is spent casting on raid bosses, >1%?

Playing a nuking caster is a highly mobile twitch experience in the majority of content, and it is not easy to pull off successfully and maintain maximum effectiveness. There are very few situations where you will putting out optimal DPS, so you get a break here and there on raid bosses, it's not like melee have to jump through hoops during those fights either.

Who says all you can do is nuke.
Did they suddenly take away all your other spells?

sirgog
04-18-2011, 09:16 PM
What would you put the percentage of casters at who can no longer rely on firewall as a crutch, who will be able to pull off this near flawless execution of chain spell casting?

I bet you dont put it at the same place I put it.

We are talking about casters having twitch skills above and beyond the NascarĀ® strategy - run fast and turn left, which go far beyond the melee twitch skills needed to play.

When THF twitch was better DPS in all case scenarios, I rarely saw anyone playing with it other than the high end players, and even then, only about half of that small percentage perfected it to the point where they could keep it going at will. What it will take to play a sorc at this level of proficiency will go far above and beyond what it took to interrupt a THF attack chain every two swings. Sorcs wont be able to lock down targets using pattern based motion like a melee could. I bet the top 5-7% will reach close to the numbers you are calculating here, while the rest, due to playstyle, will fall further behind percentage wise than the melee players who similarly do not pay attention to economy of movement and order of operations.

Those who do master the playstyle will likely hit your numbers. What percentage of the in game population do you think this is?


I've played WoW as well, a game that requires far more complex DPS rotations than this to be effective at endgame (at least for the Mage, the class I'm most familiar with). Few play a WoW mage 'perfectly', but an enormous number of players play one quite close to perfectly.

Here's an idea of what you need to do to optimise DPS in that game on a fire mage against a single target:

1) Are you in imminent danger of dying (e.g. raid boss running towards you, ground beneath your feet on fire)? If so, take evasive action and/or use a defensive cooldown.
2) Is Living Bomb (12 second DoT) active on your target? If not, cast it.
3) Is a 30 second '+5% incoming critical hit debuff' active on your target from you or another player? If not, cast your one.
4) Is Combustion off cooldown? If so, and you have DoT's on the target from a Pyroblast crit, and a Living Bomb, cast Combustion.
5) Have you got a Hot Streak buff on you (obtained by landing two critical hits in a row)? If so, cast Pyroblast.
6) Can you stand still for 2-2.5 seconds, and are you over 15% mana or so close to the end of the encounter that you don't care? If so, cast Fireball or Frostfire Bolt.
7) As a nearly-last resort, cast Scorch.


That's a lot more complex than:

1) Is Biting Cold nearly expired on your target? If so, recast it.
2) Is Electric Surge nearly expired on your target? If so, recast it.
3) Is your cold damage amplification curse active? If not, use it.
4) Is Ice Storm active on the boss? If not, cast it.
5) If you need to conserve mana, rotate SLAs.
6) If mana is no issue, rotate Polar Ray, Oitluke's, Cone of Cold and your Frost Lance SLA.


So yeah, I have faith that DDO players will prove competent enough to manage that simple rotation. Yes we'll make the odd mistake and lose a lot of damage from letting a 3-stack of Biting Cold fall off due to bad timing, or sometimes we'll lose all of our carefully ramped-up damage by not quite getting out of Velah's breath, but this happens to melees too. How often do you see a Kensai that forgets to renew Power Surge mid combat, then complains 'why am I missing so much'? How often do you see a Paladin let Zeal expire, finish a boss fight with 4 smites left over, and not use Divine Sacrifice every cooldown?

Egeus
04-18-2011, 09:17 PM
It's funny how Wail and Finger dominate the other 95% of content that ISNT raid bosses.


Except sorcs have poor DCs and Spell Pen checks for those spells, and we can't just spam them given the new cooldowns. Thanks for playing tho'.

Also, I missed the part where we're welcomed into epics.

But the hound part made me LOL, so you're forgiven :)

crazydamage
04-18-2011, 09:47 PM
Except sorcs have poor DCs and Spell Pen checks for those spells, and we can't just spam them given the new cooldowns. Thanks for playing tho'.

Also, I missed the part where we're welcomed into epics.

But the hound part made me LOL, so you're forgiven :)

Why do sorcs have poor DC and spell pen again?

Egeus
04-18-2011, 09:58 PM
Why do sorcs have poor DC and spell pen again?

Short answer: Because we don't get bonuses like wizards, and we're so feat-starved that we can't allocate those.

I'm a pretty well-geared sorc, based on an older (necro-focused) build, and my DC checks for Finger top out on my home server at 38 (40 Cha incl. ship buffs which disappear if I die, Necro + Greater Necro focus feats, unlocked Death's Edge). Spell Pen is something around 30 I think, don't recall exactly since it's not listed anywhere outside of die rolls. On Lammania, DC is 36, since I needed the feats for Savant lines. I have the Spell Pen feat, and 2 SP enhancements (couldn't afford 3).

Any moderately-geared wizard will giggle at these numbers; Pale Masters will die (re-die?) laughing. I barely scrape by as Epic-ready for any CC (36 enchant), and the spells you list are even harder since they a Fort check.

crazydamage
04-18-2011, 10:30 PM
I'm going to burst your bubble:
Wizard prestiges whether PM or AM will add +2 to DC
The wizard capstone adds +1 DC

So a wizard can have +3 DC's over a sorc in a specific school.

38 DC right now should be more than fine on live.

On khyber there are plenty of sorcs that can cast chrono withh 37 or 38 DC. Maybe you should learn how.

quickgrif
04-18-2011, 10:37 PM
I'm going to burst your bubble:
Wizard prestiges whether PM or AM will add +2 to DC
The wizard capstone adds +1 DC

So a wizard can have +3 DC's over a sorc in a specific school.

38 DC right now should be more than fine on live.

On khyber there are plenty of sorcs that can cast chrono withh 37 or 38 DC. Maybe you should learn how.

Plus the ability for wizard to pick up the focus feats compared to a feat starved sorc.

Egeus
04-18-2011, 10:45 PM
I'm going to burst your bubble:
Wizard prestiges whether PM or AM will add +2 to DC
The wizard capstone adds +1 DC

So a wizard can have +3 DC's over a sorc in a specific school.

38 DC right now should be more than fine on live.

On khyber there are plenty of sorcs that can cast chrono withh 37 or 38 DC. Maybe you should learn how.

Aren't you the author of a thread that talks about how Wizards can get up to 44/46 DCs for Enchant/Necro?

Oh right, yeah you are! (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=308979)

Also, we're not talking about live, are we? No. And I could obviously cast at 38 Enchant DCs if I switched Greater Spell Focus. I'd ask you to please tell me how I get to 46 Necro, but at this point, I'll be honest, I don't want to feed you any more.



Plus the ability for wizard to pick up the focus feats compared to a feat starved sorc.

^ This.

Aashrym
04-18-2011, 11:02 PM
I disagree that a sorc can`t fit in either the enchantment focus or the necro focus. I can fit in 2 spell focus feats, just not 4.

crazydamage
04-18-2011, 11:25 PM
Aren't you the author of a thread that talks about how Wizards can get up to 44/46 DCs for Enchant/Necro?

Oh right, yeah you are! (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=308979)

Also, we're not talking about live, are we? No. And I could obviously cast at 38 Enchant DCs if I switched Greater Spell Focus. I'd ask you to please tell me how I get to 46 Necro, but at this point, I'll be honest, I don't want to feed you any more.
^ This.

45 or 46 Necro

And i said that wizards get +3 over sorcs
That means a sorc can get up to 42 necro, so you have a lot more work to do.

xxScoobyDooxx
04-18-2011, 11:39 PM
easily answered ... what triggers Velah's cometfall please. Thanks in advance .....

also +1 Sirgog for the cool work ... your input is invaluable to the community, thanks.

sirgog
04-18-2011, 11:45 PM
easily answered ... what triggers Velah's cometfall please. Thanks in advance .....


It used to be not hitting her with physical damage for ~15 seconds. I honestly have not tested it since the VONs went epic - the mechanic may not even still be there for all I know.

When it went off in the old days, it was basically a raid wipe.

xxScoobyDooxx
04-18-2011, 11:57 PM
It used to be not hitting her with physical damage for ~15 seconds. I honestly have not tested it since the VONs went epic - the mechanic may not even still be there for all I know.

When it went off in the old days, it was basically a raid wipe.

Thanks ... so last night while we waited behind the rock at the spawn after taking down the pillars, on epic ... we had one member DC'd and waited 5 minutes for him to relog ... while waiting someone cough Az cough arrowed her for a few shots then stopped and we waited many minutes not 15 seconds .... when we finally entered and crossed the line ... bang instant party wipe. Much discussion ensued over the reason why with many suspects .... I think you have clarified this for me ... thanks again .... off to have further "discussions" with said guildie :)

Jaid314
04-19-2011, 02:08 AM
I'm going to burst your bubble:
Wizard prestiges whether PM or AM will add +2 to DC
The wizard capstone adds +1 DC

So a wizard can have +3 DC's over a sorc in a specific school.

38 DC right now should be more than fine on live.

On khyber there are plenty of sorcs that can cast chrono withh 37 or 38 DC. Maybe you should learn how.

i've brought my CC sorcerer into epic chrono with DC 38.

i'm going to burst *your* bubble i'm afraid... my spells are borderline effective. they're reasonably good against normal trash, but put me up against anything orange-named, and i doubt i even pull off 25% success rate. so, for example, the abishai in the market? not happening. all of the trash in the end fight? not happening. i'm probably a tiny bit better than having no CC at all, but not by much.

so no, DC 38 is not good enough for echrono. it's good enough to be a secondary CC specialist, but that's about as far as it goes. and if i was to go savant, i'd have to give up some essential feats... seven just isn't enough to pull it off. to do DPS that's even halfway-decent on a savant, you need both empower and maximise. you need heighten for CC, toughness to stay alive, both spell pen feats if you want your spells to land... that's 6 right there. one more for evocation or conjuration focus, and hey look! i'm all out of feats!

slimkj
04-19-2011, 02:31 AM
"Please accept my godly Arcane into your shroud, he'll dominate trash, solo a lieutenant/Crystal, unlock all the puzzles, dominate arretrikos in parts 4/5"
"Please accept my godly Arcane into your ToD, he'll kite jailer, kite shadows, and solo orthons or reconstruct in part 3"
"Please accept my godly Arcane into your VoD, he'll CC all trash and reconstruct"
"Please accept my godly Arcane into your hound, he'll buff, kite all trash"
"Please accept my godly Arcane to your reaver - no wait nevermind I can just solo it"
You can substitute other classes for arcane in most of that list.

Also, raids are a party task in the main. Remove the other 11 players, mostly melee, and most players will fail most of the raids in that list. This is just another example of what happens so frequently on this forum - selectively listing class benefits of one or more classes to highlight how overpowered they are without considering the benefits or equal ability of other classes.

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 02:45 AM
You can substitute other classes for arcane in most of that list.

Also, raids are a party task in the main. Remove the other 11 players, mostly melee, and most players will fail most of the raids in that list. This is just another example of what happens so frequently on this forum - selectively listing class benefits of one or more classes to highlight how overpowered they are without considering the benefits or equal ability of other classes.

LOL, so "any other class" can reconstruct, wail, mass hold and kite with AOEs to get aggro.
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crazydamage
04-19-2011, 02:46 AM
i've brought my CC sorcerer into epic chrono with DC 38.

i'm going to burst *your* bubble i'm afraid... my spells are borderline effective. they're reasonably good against normal trash, but put me up against anything orange-named, and i doubt i even pull off 25% success rate. so, for example, the abishai in the market? not happening. all of the trash in the end fight? not happening. i'm probably a tiny bit better than having no CC at all, but not by much.

so no, DC 38 is not good enough for echrono. it's good enough to be a secondary CC specialist, but that's about as far as it goes. and if i was to go savant, i'd have to give up some essential feats... seven just isn't enough to pull it off. to do DPS that's even halfway-decent on a savant, you need both empower and maximise. you need heighten for CC, toughness to stay alive, both spell pen feats if you want your spells to land... that's 6 right there. one more for evocation or conjuration focus, and hey look! i'm all out of feats!

So because YOU cannot do it with 38 dc, no one else on khyber does it with 38 dc at all.
Nope, there are certainly no sorcs on khyber with 38 dc capable of solo casting chrono

steelblueskies
04-19-2011, 07:01 AM
So because YOU cannot do it with 38 dc, no one else on khyber does it with 38 dc at all.
Nope, there are certainly no sorcs on khyber with 38 dc capable of solo casting chrono

managed ten completions of echrono on khyber with a standing 38 unbuffed on a first life wizard before tr'ing. our biggest problem was consistently finding an abishai destroyer tank during a certain timeslot that wasn't on timer or offline, not landing holds, or discoballs.

it helps to have ship buffs(both primary caster stat, and the twelve fellow if you have no other way to get that +1 focus boost), and a bard who can heighten your dc's.

of course its also generally easier to bring 2 cc bots any which way you do it. less stress on the sp pool and needing to be in two places at once, much less issues if a lag induced, or "derp" based death occur.

simply because people are accustomed to doing things a certain way doesn't make it better. the sociological term for the "its the way we have done it, or its ours, so its better then yours" is ethnocentrism. its human nature, but humans are inherently flawed.

now if you lacked the equivalent of two spell pen feats a +3 item + 3 from enhancements and where trying anything other then the mass hold monster with no sr check on live, well that right there would be your big problem, especially on devils and abishai. tactics might have been the other part of it, if people were pulling as they please expecting you to handle EVERYTHING they might pull solo.



of course one must bear in mind that tr'ing outclasses gear almost across the board anyway.
spell pen from items caps at 3. from past lives it caps at 9.

sp from items gets up to about what ? 350 for archmagi plus 50 and 100 on a greensteel item. sorcs get double from items. but i reason archmagi balances that nicely. which leaves the sorc plf which is like improved mental toughness, and 120 total from 3 fvs and 3 sorc past lives. you can probably fit in improved mental toughness by not needing a spell pen feat as well so adding those you get about even results.

as for dc's 3 cleric, 3 sorc - thats equal to the best from epic items for evo or conjur.
wiz bought feat or bard could up either all dc's or enchant respectively.

yeah tr>epic gear if you have to choose one. best is both.

but why try to be a wizard. party with a cc wizard and make the melee cry. wizard mass holds a pack, and you nuke them. congrats you don't need to waste time dodging, moving, scratching your backside, or anything else and you now do 50% more damage on top of everything else.
and if you can miss spells on held mobs you are not playing the right game. melee still have to roll a hit and/or crit on held now. congrats you win by casting. you always hit, and can crit. also helpless mobs lose dex bonuses.

moral? be what you are, not something else, and make friends with something else that complements your strengths. sorc dps+wiz cc=power trash clearing.

Egeus
04-19-2011, 07:15 AM
moral? be what you are, not something else, and make friends with something else that complements your strengths. sorc dps+wiz cc=power trash clearing.

Theoretically I agree, but in reality most party leaders think the way crazy thinks: arcanes = arcanes = arcanes. If I have one, why do I need another? They're all the same. They can all CC and AoE, and if they can't, they're gimps.

The whole point of the Savant PrEs and the spell changes were originally to help differentiate Sorcerers (DPS bluebars) from Wizards (CC/instakill bluebars), but with the continuous nerfs, the devs have stripped away much of the difference, and sorcs start to drift back towards being gimpy wizards with some pretty flavor.

(generally agree that passive TR feats can be a game-changer, but it's a tiny minority of the playerbase that has them)

Chai
04-19-2011, 08:11 AM
I've played WoW as well, a game that requires far more complex DPS rotations than this to be effective at endgame (at least for the Mage, the class I'm most familiar with). Few play a WoW mage 'perfectly', but an enormous number of players play one quite close to perfectly.

Here's an idea of what you need to do to optimise DPS in that game on a fire mage against a single target:

1) Are you in imminent danger of dying (e.g. raid boss running towards you, ground beneath your feet on fire)? If so, take evasive action and/or use a defensive cooldown.
2) Is Living Bomb (12 second DoT) active on your target? If not, cast it.
3) Is a 30 second '+5% incoming critical hit debuff' active on your target from you or another player? If not, cast your one.
4) Is Combustion off cooldown? If so, and you have DoT's on the target from a Pyroblast crit, and a Living Bomb, cast Combustion.
5) Have you got a Hot Streak buff on you (obtained by landing two critical hits in a row)? If so, cast Pyroblast.
6) Can you stand still for 2-2.5 seconds, and are you over 15% mana or so close to the end of the encounter that you don't care? If so, cast Fireball or Frostfire Bolt.
7) As a nearly-last resort, cast Scorch.


That's a lot more complex than:

1) Is Biting Cold nearly expired on your target? If so, recast it.
2) Is Electric Surge nearly expired on your target? If so, recast it.
3) Is your cold damage amplification curse active? If not, use it.
4) Is Ice Storm active on the boss? If not, cast it.
5) If you need to conserve mana, rotate SLAs.
6) If mana is no issue, rotate Polar Ray, Oitluke's, Cone of Cold and your Frost Lance SLA.


So yeah, I have faith that DDO players will prove competent enough to manage that simple rotation. Yes we'll make the odd mistake and lose a lot of damage from letting a 3-stack of Biting Cold fall off due to bad timing, or sometimes we'll lose all of our carefully ramped-up damage by not quite getting out of Velah's breath, but this happens to melees too. How often do you see a Kensai that forgets to renew Power Surge mid combat, then complains 'why am I missing so much'? How often do you see a Paladin let Zeal expire, finish a boss fight with 4 smites left over, and not use Divine Sacrifice every cooldown?

Right, which is why I am saying it will be a low percentage of players who hit your numbers, which is not going to create this vacuum where we no longer need melee.

WOW encounters were more complex, because they were 15-20 minutes long and there were many stages etc, but maintaining highest potential DPS in that game was easy. I could write a macro for any class that would use its abilities in the order needed to maximise DPS. In DPS mode in WOW players also stood in one spot until the next encounter stage occurred when they needed to take a specific action. WOW is by far not the twitch combat game DDO is. It is sammich tank and spank in nature with encounters that happen in stages, and specific actions need to be taken to counter mobs specific actions.

Endgame WOW is to chess what DDO is to real battle. The raid leader can say "every time the mob does this AOE, run back to the wall - the boss will do this every 25 seconds, I will call it out" -and anyone who knows how to push a back button on a keyboard can hack it. The level of strategy compares with DDO, but you cant replace gear with skill in WOW like you can in DDO. Twitch skills are key to playing this game where they are a mere afterthought to playing a Bliz game, where I can cycle through the same spells until a certain event, which I know will happen, happens, and I need to react to it, and I already know how to react to it.

Here in DDO we cant just memorize a spell order and stand in one spot until the trigger point in an encounter happens because of the nature of defenses mobs have, and moving combat. If we are ONLY comparing boss fights in raids, sure, but we are not.

We are comparing twitch skills needed -vs- twitch skills posessed. 90% of the THF melee in this game couldnt even interrupt a 2 swing attack chain to make it repeat itself perfectly most of the time, for a couple years. Youre saying they will be able to move and cast spells, in specific order that maximises DPS, with minimal to no time between casts to maximise DPS, in a game where all they had to do 95% of the time beforehand was throw down one spell, run fast, and turn left, for 5+ years? Thats alot of complacency to fight through. You know what happens when you remove people from their comfort zone round these parts, right? No refunds on the pitch forks people. :p

I think people are going to have to learn to play that class to its potential, all over again, where most didnt know how or couldnt hack it previously, but they just had a better crutch to lean on, so they were "effective". When "effective" means crit fishing to farm for scrolls its one thing. Now its going to mean avoiding aggro while rotating a few specific spells in the right order to max out DPS for the encounter, in a motion oriented combat game. It wont be the same for each encounter, quest, toon, etc. Its not formulaic like WOW.

No sir, comparing DDO casters to WOW casters isnt even an apples to oranges comparison. Its like comparing the worth of a bishop on a chess board to an AV8B tank killer on a real battlefield. I think your max DPS calc is reachable, but not by the majority.

Jaid314
04-19-2011, 11:09 AM
So because YOU cannot do it with 38 dc, no one else on khyber does it with 38 dc at all.
Nope, there are certainly no sorcs on khyber with 38 dc capable of solo casting chrono

i'm quite sure it *can* be done with no caster at all, or even a caster who can't land any CC whatsoever.

that doesn't negate the fact that against certain enemies in the raid, DC 38 does not work remotely well at all, and that the group of enemies it doesn't work on well is likely to increase to just about everything in the raid (if DCs do indeed go up by 4... it's starting to sound like they aren't, from what i'm hearing, so that would make it a lot simpler. basically, it would mean i can actually just (mostly) ignore the update and the PrE like everyone is suggesting, which works for me).

Shade
04-19-2011, 11:50 AM
wait what.

he's saying..

nerf ddo because I can press buttons fast in world of warcraft. (a kids game where you stand still and do just that, look at cooldowns and press buttons, with no other concerns)

Such a compelling arguement. I'm sure the devs love it when you mention there competitors.

Qezuzu
04-19-2011, 11:57 AM
I'd comment on the DPS numbers for Savants, but could someone do a number crunch for an evoker AoV on a boss (no Blade barrier)? With Archon, Divine Punishment, Holy Smite, etc?

Chai
04-19-2011, 12:05 PM
wait what.

he's saying..

nerf ddo because I can press buttons fast in world of warcraft. (a kids game where you stand still and do just that, look at cooldowns and press buttons, with no other concerns)

Such a compelling arguement. I'm sure the devs love it when you mention there competitors.

You should do a savant DPS mana dump challenge. Then compare the results with the melee results on the same targets, post U9.

Fire up the FRAPS. Its a hoe down.

No reason to accept a melee into my group post U9? Id like to see why.

Seikojin
04-19-2011, 01:29 PM
I can see the concerns. I think the debuff to the curse was a decent step though.

I feel though that Sorcs should be more mana to dump, not more damage per mana.

I think any caster can do good dps now considering the various spells you can stack. The mob has to live through it all, or debuff it, or whatever, but I think the option is nice.

Out dps'ing a melee? Per mana bar? True. But that mana bar is the limiting factor to their power.

It is nice to have some basic math for the overall calculatable output. But as others have said, it really doesn't translate into the gameplay experience that way. I have a sorc and a wiz on lam so I can check the spells out. So I may give some of it a run for crunchy sake.

slimkj
04-19-2011, 01:49 PM
LOL, so "any other class" can reconstruct, wail, mass hold and kite with AOEs to get aggro.
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Substitute the deliberate extreme specifics you list above with "self-heal or heal others", "kill groups", "disable multiple enemies" and "kite".

Also; when you use quotation marks "", try to actually quote someone. I didn't say "any other class". I said "other classes" and "most".

Just because there are paint by numbers ways to do certain raids/epics that most are used to, does not mean they have to be done that way. In fact I'd suggest that's a mainly dull and robotic way to play. I do it myself too, of course, but sometimes you can mix it up a bit. Other classes when played by someone with skill can substitute for an arcane in a lot of content that they are thought of as required for, or dominant in.

It's a myth that they are "godly".


"Please accept my godly Arcane into your shroud, he'll dominate trash, solo a lieutenant/Crystal, unlock all the puzzles, dominate arretrikos in parts 4/5"
Ever played an AA in Shroud, as just one example?

Dominate trash? Check. Solo a lieutenant? Check. Sort the crystal? Check. Unlock all puzzles? With a rogue splash, sure! Dominate Harry? Lit II, appropriate ammo, slayer imbue, many shot and haste boost is lovely... oh, and they can beat the hell out of portals too.


"Please accept my godly Arcane into your ToD, he'll kite jailer, kite shadows, and solo orthons or reconstruct in part 3"
Again not only arcanes who can do that. To reference their usual role in that raid is to minimise the contribution of everyone else.


"Please accept my godly Arcane into your VoD, he'll CC all trash and reconstruct"
Not really godly given you can just melee the trash and use curse pots/heals.


"Please accept my godly Arcane into your hound, he'll buff, kite all trash"
Ah yes, here's a raid where perhaps they can be of arguably more use than 10 melee.


"Please accept my godly Arcane to your reaver - no wait nevermind I can just solo it"
Again, not the only ones.

These statements are just hyperbole. You don't need to engage in it - the debate about theoretical dps numbers and the reality of the execution of spells is being had and is in the main informative and good natured.

Also, given the nature of the current spell pass I'd say your opposition to the relative power of casters is not aligned with the views of the devs.

slimkj
04-19-2011, 01:57 PM
Right, which is why I am saying it will be a low percentage of players who hit your numbers, which is not going to create this vacuum where we no longer need melee.
(Emphasis mine)

There's a further important point behind this. If there are clear leaders in the existing DPS balance, and there are to a degree, why do we still see people playing the wide and wonderful variety of pure and multiclasses we do? Because I'd put money on that remaining post U9, even if sorcs were averaging 900 DPS.

(I don't want them to have 900 DPS)

Shade
04-19-2011, 02:04 PM
You should do a savant DPS mana dump challenge. Then compare the results with the melee results on the same targets, post U9.

Fire up the FRAPS. Its a hoe down.

No reason to accept a melee into my group post U9? Id like to see why.

I already did an archmage one vs the portal.. Pre archmage nerf. Its up.

Pretty bad time, inferior to melee.

So at least for the most popular raid in the game, the grouping mentality wont change. Who wants savants for a raid where you spend most of the time beating on things immune to elemental dmg (portals)

And anyone is welcome to do caster entry for sobrien too.. A rare target that takes 200% ice dmg, so it should be easy to kill him in like 1 min based on the numbers right.. yet no one has done it. Because its not that easy.

Qezuzu
04-19-2011, 03:25 PM
http://cdn.content.turbine.com/sites/forums.ddo.com/images/buttons/red/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3731850#post3731850) ... Casters are so overpowered on Lamannia now (even after the recent wave of pretty hefty nerfs) that there is almost no reason to consider playing a melee, even in the 'endurance' fights like eVON6. Even the 12th level Sorc puts out more DPS than some 20th level ungeared toons.
If casters are not nerfed further before this gets live, the Barbarian looking to improve their DPS has no alternative other than to TR into a sorc and effectively lose all their gear. Better that the nerfs that are needed happen before the update goes to the live servers.
The two DoT should be nerfed.

But Barbs, rogues and other DPS are still better on trash than arcanes. I know you talk about Epic Devil Assault a lot. How would a sorc manage the 200 mobs or so with the 7200 (2 shrines) SP, and still have enough to nuke the 2 >100k HP (forgot the number) bosses?

Your numbers show an ungeared sorc doing 150k damage per bar. What if you can only afford to use SLA's? What the DPS/damage per bar then?

Even if your theoretical sorcerer can be made real and really execute everything perfectly, and even with ungodly DPS, melee DPS still have the infinite reliability of not depending on a limited resource, SP.

Great on bosses, but not necessarily great for the entire quest. There will not be some mass exodus from melee to caster.

steelblueskies
04-19-2011, 03:56 PM
I already did an archmage one vs the portal.. Pre archmage nerf. Its up.

Pretty bad time, inferior to melee.

So at least for the most popular raid in the game, the grouping mentality wont change. Who wants savants for a raid where you spend most of the time beating on things immune to elemental dmg (portals)

And anyone is welcome to do caster entry for sobrien too.. A rare target that takes 200% ice dmg, so it should be easy to kill him in like 1 min based on the numbers right.. yet no one has done it. Because its not that easy.

yay so you proved what? that dps on a worst case target is poor? after all you "did one vs. the portal" not vs s'obrien.

not to mention the flaws in the challenge in the first place- scaling. varies by class, varies by party size, and even hirelings count some odd amount. if everyone doing the challenge has a slightly different hp value and you are making assumptions for a fixed number? and yes. epics scale. so do explorer zones.

Chai
04-19-2011, 04:03 PM
yay so you proved what? that dps on a worst case target is poor? after all you "did one vs. the portal" not vs s'obrien.

not to mention the flaws in the challenge in the first place- scaling. varies by class, varies by party size, and even hirelings count some odd amount. if everyone doing the challenge has a slightly different hp value and you are making assumptions for a fixed number? and yes. epics scale. so do explorer zones.

I find it slightly amusing though very played out that every time someone wants to test how well they can do comparitively in DDO, by actually playing DDO in the SAME SITUATION they are trying to find things out about, that there is this sheer amount of attempted arguementation regarding how the test isnt fair, how the target is the worse case scenario, how the test is biased etc.

There is no flaw whatsoever in naming a case scenario, and playing it out in order to learn how your character performs in that scenario, and challenging others to do the same.

None.

And Sobrien is DEFINATELY not the worse target for a cold savant, LOL.

Jaid314
04-19-2011, 04:12 PM
yay so you proved what? that dps on a worst case target is poor? after all you "did one vs. the portal" not vs s'obrien.

not to mention the flaws in the challenge in the first place- scaling. varies by class, varies by party size, and even hirelings count some odd amount. if everyone doing the challenge has a slightly different hp value and you are making assumptions for a fixed number? and yes. epics scale. so do explorer zones.

err... portals are a favorable target for an evocation archmage. i dunno what you're talking about.

a melee loses crits, they face unbeatable DR, and lose elemental damage from their weapons.

a caster keeps crits, and can use a type of damage the portal has no resistance to.

in short, it compared a caster vs a melee minus one of the biggest advantages a melee has in DPS, and the melee came ahead. the portal is, if anything, a worst case scenario for the *melee* character. about the only thing worse for them to fight would be something that they can't even reach.

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 04:14 PM
i'm quite sure it *can* be done with no caster at all, or even a caster who can't land any CC whatsoever.

that doesn't negate the fact that against certain enemies in the raid, DC 38 does not work remotely well at all, and that the group of enemies it doesn't work on well is likely to increase to just about everything in the raid (if DCs do indeed go up by 4... it's starting to sound like they aren't, from what i'm hearing, so that would make it a lot simpler. basically, it would mean i can actually just (mostly) ignore the update and the PrE like everyone is suggesting, which works for me).

Have you ever heard of the spells
WEB
ENERGY DRAIN
IRRESISTABLE DANCE
FLESH TO STONE

And I hope you realize that sorcs have about half the cooldown on live that wizards do.

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 04:18 PM
Theoretically I agree, but in reality most party leaders think the way crazy thinks: arcanes = arcanes = arcanes. If I have one, why do I need another? They're all the same. They can all CC and AoE, and if they can't, they're gimps.

The whole point of the Savant PrEs and the spell changes were originally to help differentiate Sorcerers (DPS bluebars) from Wizards (CC/instakill bluebars), but with the continuous nerfs, the devs have stripped away much of the difference, and sorcs start to drift back towards being gimpy wizards with some pretty flavor.

(generally agree that passive TR feats can be a game-changer, but it's a tiny minority of the playerbase that has them)

Nope I lead epic raids all the time and I know which players to take regardless of what class they are playing.

The way U9 is shaping up to be is:
Wizards higher DC, slightly less dps
Sorcs, higher dps, slightly less DC

Thats balanced. If you dont like it go play a wizard.

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 04:22 PM
I already did an archmage one vs the portal.. Pre archmage nerf. Its up.

Pretty bad time, inferior to melee.

So at least for the most popular raid in the game, the grouping mentality wont change. Who wants savants for a raid where you spend most of the time beating on things immune to elemental dmg (portals)

And anyone is welcome to do caster entry for sobrien too.. A rare target that takes 200% ice dmg, so it should be easy to kill him in like 1 min based on the numbers right.. yet no one has done it. Because its not that easy.

Not to start an argument with you but I'm betting an ice savant would easily destroy your 2:30 melee record on Sobrien.
Few geared sorcs would want to spend the effort on it though, they are too busy farming epic scrolls probably

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 04:27 PM
Substitute the deliberate extreme specifics you list above with "self-heal or heal others", "kill groups", "disable multiple enemies" and "kite".

Also; when you use quotation marks "", try to actually quote someone. I didn't say "any other class". I said "other classes" and "most".

Just because there are paint by numbers ways to do certain raids/epics that most are used to, does not mean they have to be done that way. In fact I'd suggest that's a mainly dull and robotic way to play. I do it myself too, of course, but sometimes you can mix it up a bit. Other classes when played by someone with skill can substitute for an arcane in a lot of content that they are thought of as required for, or dominant in.

It's a myth that they are "godly".


Ever played an AA in Shroud, as just one example?

Dominate trash? Check. Solo a lieutenant? Check. Sort the crystal? Check. Unlock all puzzles? With a rogue splash, sure! Dominate Harry? Lit II, appropriate ammo, slayer imbue, many shot and haste boost is lovely... oh, and they can beat the hell out of portals too.


Again not only arcanes who can do that. To reference their usual role in that raid is to minimise the contribution of everyone else.


Not really godly given you can just melee the trash and use curse pots/heals.


Ah yes, here's a raid where perhaps they can be of arguably more use than 10 melee.


Again, not the only ones.

These statements are just hyperbole. You don't need to engage in it - the debate about theoretical dps numbers and the reality of the execution of spells is being had and is in the main informative and good natured.

Also, given the nature of the current spell pass I'd say your opposition to the relative power of casters is not aligned with the views of the devs.

No other class has anything near the efficiency of Wail.
No other class can CC multiple targets. (2 stuns off a monk doesnt count, you know what i am talking about)

Your straw man AA argument is fail.

Angelus_dead
04-19-2011, 04:29 PM
err... portals are a favorable target for an evocation archmage. i dunno what you're talking about.
a melee loses crits, they face unbeatable DR, and lose elemental damage from their weapons.
a caster keeps crits, and can use a type of damage the portal has no resistance to.
The caster loses Polar, Firewall, Acid, Disint, Frost, and most everything you use for high damage. Sure you've still got your purple Force spells, but they're only a little of the regular damage.

Trillea
04-19-2011, 04:47 PM
No other class has anything near the efficiency of Wail.
No other class can CC multiple targets. (2 stuns off a monk doesnt count, you know what i am talking about)

Your straw man AA argument is fail.

Light monks can CC a HECK of a lot more than 2

Stunning fist
Stunning blow
Kukan-do
Jade Tomb (if undead/outsider)
Sap

rinse/repeat

slimkj
04-19-2011, 04:48 PM
No other class has anything near the efficiency of Wail.
No other class can CC multiple targets. (2 stuns off a monk doesnt count, you know what i am talking about)

Your straw man AA argument is fail.
I agree, Wail is pretty efficient. That'll be why the cooldown is increasing in U9... more DPS options, less group up and instakill.

Other classes can CC multiple targets. Seen Nick's latest build? What about a strategy specced Kensai? Why not a monk? The cooldowns are very short. None of these are quite as efficient as a mass hold in Epic, no. That'll be why the Minion saves are being bumped back up slightly in U9... more DPS options, less group up and mass hold.

Think what you like about my point on AAs or any of the other classes and their roles in raids. I really don't mind either way if you personally agree with my points, I just don't like to see hyperbole left unchallenged.

Chai
04-19-2011, 05:02 PM
No other class has anything near the efficiency of Wail.
No other class can CC multiple targets. (2 stuns off a monk doesnt count, you know what i am talking about)

Your straw man AA argument is fail.

Ive run portal duty on a melee before, np. Its not even a hard job. Its just better to have the caster do it while the melee smack the portals. Anyone assigned this would almost have to TRY to fail.

Monk specced for stun has quite a bit more than 2 stuns.

A bard can put the entire pull in part 2 to sleep if they wanted to, not that this would help, but as far as CC is concerned....

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 05:06 PM
I agree, Wail is pretty efficient. That'll be why the cooldown is increasing in U9... more DPS options, less group up and instakill.

Other classes can CC multiple targets. Seen Nick's latest build? What about a strategy specced Kensai? Why not a monk? The cooldowns are very short. None of these are quite as efficient as a mass hold in Epic, no. That'll be why the Minion saves are being bumped back up slightly in U9... more DPS options, less group up and mass hold.

Think what you like about my point on AAs or any of the other classes and their roles in raids. I really don't mind either way if you personally agree with my points, I just don't like to see hyperbole left unchallenged.

The cooldown on stunning blow is 15 seconds.
A single kensai with stunning blow isnt going to be enough

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 05:08 PM
Ive run portal duty on a melee before, np. Its not even a hard job. Its just better to have the caster do it while the melee smack the portals. Anyone assigned this would almost have to TRY to fail.

Monk specced for stun has quite a bit more than 2 stuns.

A bard can put the entire pull in part 2 to sleep if they wanted to, not that this would help, but as far as CC is concerned....

No one is arguing that you cant do portals on anything other than an arcane.

You cannot do portals EFFICIENTLY on anything other than an arcane. This is only 1 example of the power of Wail.

Just as no one can beat an arcane for farming vale slayers or epic scroll farming etc etc.

Monks have multiple stuns yes. I dont know many monks that take stunning blow. Some of the other stuns require Ki.

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 05:09 PM
Light monks can CC a HECK of a lot more than 2

Stunning fist
Stunning blow
Kukan-do
Jade Tomb (if undead/outsider)
Sap

rinse/repeat

Stunning fist, kukan do and jade tomb yes

No one takes stunning blow or sap on a monk

Thats basically 2 stuns which is what I originally said:
Stunning fist and kukan do.
Jade tomb being unreliable.

slimkj
04-19-2011, 05:13 PM
The cooldown on stunning blow is 15 seconds.
A single kensai with stunning blow isnt going to be enough
Taking a single point of my post that isn't fully clarified, Kensai's CC, and focusing on one incorrect aspect of that exclusively doesn't really strengthen your position. Kensai can do more CC than just SB.

slimkj
04-19-2011, 05:16 PM
No one takes stunning blow or sap on a monk
[...]
Jade tomb being unreliable.
I don't think you really understand how variably and effectively a monk can be built and played.

Trillea
04-19-2011, 05:18 PM
Stunning fist, kukan do and jade tomb yes

No one takes stunning blow or sap on a monk

Thats basically 2 stuns which is what I originally said:
Stunning fist and kukan do.
Jade tomb being unreliable.

Sap - no save, if you are focusing on CC, it's a no-brainer

Jade tomb - as reliable as you make it

Stunning blow - same as jade tomb.

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 05:29 PM
Taking a single point of my post that isn't fully clarified, Kensai's CC, and focusing on one incorrect aspect of that exclusively doesn't really strengthen your position. Kensai can do more CC than just SB.

What other CC do kensai have other than Stunning blow.

Please please please do not say trip, radiance or earthgrab. Those do not count as they are unreliable

crazydamage
04-19-2011, 05:30 PM
I don't think you really understand how variably and effectively a monk can be built and played.

I think I run with effective light and dark stunning monks all the time that dont waste feats on sap or stunning blow.

slimkj
04-19-2011, 05:44 PM
What other CC do kensai have other than Stunning blow.
Trip, Improved Trip, Stunning Blow, Sap. They are not unreliable on a fighter specced for strategy/CC feats, even better if race is specced for it too.

Anyway, I'm being drawn into specifics about one small aspect of one of the points I made which, frankly, I find tiring and unnecessary. Arcanes are not "godly". Other classes can achieve many of the things they do in other ways. Raids can be and are completed without them. Melees will not disappear because Sorcs become a viable dps choice in U9.

slimkj
04-19-2011, 05:46 PM
I think I run with effective light and dark stunning monks all the time that dont waste feats on sap or stunning blow.
You think a feat spent on Stunning Blow on a monk is a feat wasted? I'd say it depends on the build and focus of that monk.

GentlemanAndAScholar
04-19-2011, 05:54 PM
So you went to college for 4 years so you could do 5th grade arithmetic and 10th grade probability? :D

Anyway, other than PR, for epic setting all other spells will be subject to ridiculously high saves (since the minion debuff was removed). It remains to be seen (and I apologize if this was already tested) if the potential output of sorcs holds true also in those scenarios.

steelblueskies
04-19-2011, 10:14 PM
I find it slightly amusing though very played out that every time someone wants to test how well they can do comparitively in DDO, by actually playing DDO in the SAME SITUATION they are trying to find things out about, that there is this sheer amount of attempted arguementation regarding how the test isnt fair, how the target is the worse case scenario, how the test is biased etc.

There is no flaw whatsoever in naming a case scenario, and playing it out in order to learn how your character performs in that scenario, and challenging others to do the same.

None.

And Sobrien is DEFINATELY not the worse target for a cold savant, LOL.
you may find it amusing, but unscientific testing, ie testing without controlling variables is just about worthless. as indicated, having a party that is full, and contains the exact same distribution of classes would be needed to eliminate potentially large variances due to dungeon scaling, not only for number of players, but also for classes in dungeon. fixing the test case to actually be the same was the point.
furthermore, evo force a.m. is the lowest output in general dps wise.

continuing on, the challenge(flawed as noted) is on live, not lam.

s'obrien on live or lam may be optimal for cold spec, but one pwk and you outclassed anything else, add more players so scaling is not a factor and you simply up the damage dealt in 1 second.. so another skewed result if you include that.
of course he only ran a dps test with the portal not s'obrien, so again incomplete test, flawed data, flawed point.

harassing the post pointing out what is needed to get consistent and reliable numbers IN GAME amuses me." down with controlled variables and the scientific method" is basically what you said. if he listens and updates the challenge, he should get better results(better defined as more accurate and repeatable across classes and players, and repeat tests).

ps. crazy you meant cc not dc when you said "The way U9 is shaping up to be is:
Wizards higher DC, slightly less dps
Sorcs, higher dps, slightly less DC"
right?

trash wise seems pairing a cc wizard and dps sorc would be best come u9, pretty much all the time.

sirgog
04-19-2011, 10:16 PM
So you went to college for 4 years so you could do 5th grade arithmetic and 10th grade probability? :D

Anyway, other than PR, for epic setting all other spells will be subject to ridiculously high saves (since the minion debuff was removed). It remains to be seen (and I apologize if this was already tested) if the potential output of sorcs holds true also in those scenarios.

Epic mob saves aren't ridiculous at all, as long as you target their weak saves.

The only real exceptions are Outsiders, many of whom do have ultra-high saves (ADQ1 efreeti...)

Shade
04-19-2011, 10:38 PM
Not to start an argument with you but I'm betting an ice savant would easily destroy your 2:30 melee record on Sobrien.


Theres no arguements.

There only 2 things present here:
A) Nonsense theoretical talk set up by biased players with obvious errors.
B) COLD HARD VIDEO EVIDENCE.

Which do you provide mr so called "damage"

Less talk. More proof.

My sorc is currently a earth savant. I might respec for ice and crush sobrien for everyones enjoyment in a few days after my respec timer expires.

steelblueskies
04-19-2011, 10:44 PM
Theres no arguements.

There only 2 things present here:
A) Nonsense theoretical talk set up by biased players with obvious errors.
B) COLD HARD VIDEO EVIDENCE.

Which do you provide mr so called "damage"

Less talk. More proof.

My sorc is currently a earth savant. I might respec for ice and crush sobrien for everyones enjoyment in a few days after my respec timer expires.

please see above post on test setup error. i think the challenge itself is a great idea, and would love improved result validity. it gives us something to use as a meterstick for the napkin math, and to set against the crazies when they come knocking.

GentlemanAndAScholar
04-19-2011, 11:08 PM
Epic mob saves aren't ridiculous at all, as long as you target their weak saves.

The only real exceptions are Outsiders, many of whom do have ultra-high saves (ADQ1 efreeti...)

Yes those are the mobs I had in mind. Tieflings, Abishai, Reavers, Efreet, etc. which unless you got evocation > 40, your reflex-based and Fortitude-based cold spells (Polar Ray being the only no-save) will keep doing either 1/2 dmg or no dmg (for evasion type mob).

Shade
04-21-2011, 02:10 AM
please see above post on test setup error. i think the challenge itself is a great idea, and would love improved result validity. it gives us something to use as a meterstick for the napkin math, and to set against the crazies when they come knocking.

I saw it, its nonsense so i choose not to reply to it. Learn more about ddo and provide some kind of compelling arguement and I might consider it.

Darsith
04-21-2011, 07:00 AM
Theres no arguements.

There only 2 things present here:
A) Nonsense theoretical talk set up by biased players with obvious errors.
B) COLD HARD VIDEO EVIDENCE.

Which do you provide mr so called "damage"

Less talk. More proof.

My sorc is currently a earth savant. I might respec for ice and crush sobrien for everyones enjoyment in a few days after my respec timer expires.

I have a video of me killing Sobrein... I forgot to open the combat tab/window so I didn't submit it. That and I have been too lazy to do it again.

lvl 20 sorc - Air Savant ~ 1:40 - only cold spell was the new dot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxiqHiVPKnU

Ziindarax
04-21-2011, 10:08 AM
As I have a good feeling the dev's will nerf the Savants even further, I am going to step in and say that these projections are flawed.

Why are they flawed? Well, for one, they assume that the sorcerer is piking the entire time up until the boss. The reality is, spell casters won't get anywhere NEAR the kind of damage you project because they're going to end up having to use their mana to support the melee's up to the boss.

The other issue is, there's going to be a stigma attached to sorcerer's; the same kind of stigma that's currently attached to Arcane Archers. Who is going to WANT to take a chance on a sorcerer (and hope they picked a worthwhile savant) when they can make "the right choice every time" and pick a pale master wizard over the sorcerer each and every time (when the pale master has the most mana-efficient DPS of all the casters, AND can self-heal)? The only exception to this will be guild mates, and/or close friends. This is especially true when the dev's inevitably nerf sorcerer DPS even further after reading this thread all because of what a few min-maxers can pull off.

No offense Sirgog, as I know you're just trying to post fact (and I +1 you for it), but honestly, at this point it's pretty clear (in my opinion) the developers don't want casters to be more powerful than melee classes(even though in TRUE D&D, the casters wound up being the strongest of all the classes toward level 20. That's how it was, and that's how it should be considering casters have to put up with poor melee ability and health up until epic levels [20+]).

Caster DPS is grossly limited by their mana pool, their dps powers SHOULD exceed that of a melee... at least for a time (this is in response to your saying that one, or several of the spells, is "over-powered").


Warning - this thread is full of maths. I have a degree in the subject, got to put it to use sometime...


DDOOOOOOOOOM!!! The sky is falling for Sorcs! Let's all cry and /wrists on the forums!

Actually, it isn't. Here's my calculations for Savant damage per second, and damage per full tank of SP.

A note to the Devs - confirmation of these monster statistics (particularly saves) would be useful indeed for confirming that these test cases are accurate.

I'll do three test cases - a competent new player piloting a Sor12 against an overlevel elite quest boss; an ungeared Sor20 taking on Epic Velah, and a seasoned veteran piloting an epic-geared Sor20 in the Elite Horoth/Suulomades encounter.

Some minor errors have been fixed in the thread.

Case 1: Ungeared Sor12 vs. the endboss of Diplomatic Immunity Elite:
Humanoid, no noticeable resists or immunities, no info on saves so I'll guess 22 Fort and 14 Ref

- I've picked this boss as a 'standard' target. Outsiders with high saves and resists are not common foes at this level. OTOH, undead are also common bosses at this level, and our friendly Cold Savant sucks against them.

Assumptions:
- 26 Cha
- Spell DC 20+spell level for Evocation
- 9% cold spell crit chance
- 200% cold spell crit intensity
- +40% cold damage from enhancements (not sure if 35% or 40% is the max possible at 12; if 35%, subtract ~3% from final results)
- +20% acid damage from enhancements
- 50% Superior Glaciation 5 item (veterans will have Sup Freeze 6 but this hypothetical new player does not)
- Spells available: Niac's Biting Cold, Cone of Cold, Icestorm, Frost Lance, Acid Blast. Note no Electric Surge (Cone of Cold is a more useful all-around spell, so even though EES would give better results here, our friend does not use it)
- Reports indicate that spell level increases do not affect Niac's Biting Cold; as such I will assume caster level 12 for it and clvl16 for other spells.
- Player skill is not yet sufficient to use debuffs properly.
- All spells are Max-Empped and not Heightened.

Boost to cold spells: 1.9 (enhancements/potency) x 2.5 (metamagics) x 1.09 (from crits) - spells do 518% of base damage.

Damage per spell:

Niac's SLA - worthless (needs a 1 to fail the save)
Niac's Biting Cold - 15.5 base damage; ~80 damage per tick per stack. Three-stacks for ~240 per tick (for the first 20 seconds this will average 120 per tick). That's 1680 damage per cast, but on an effective 14 second cooldown.
Frost Lance - Our Warchief saves on a 2. Base damage 32 per lance, becomes 165 per failed save, 83 per success - average ~270 damage per cast.
Cone of Cold - Base damage 80, actual damage 410/205. Fails save half the time; average 307 per cast.
Ice Storm - Base damage 17.5, actual damage ~90 per tick. 1350 damage per cast, effective 30 second cooldown.
Acid Blast - base damage 50, actual damage ~212/106. Average ~150 per cast; probably not worth the mana.
Snowball Swarm SLA - base damage 25, actual ~130/65, average ~80 per cast


"Let's Burn Our Mana approach"

Sorc casts the following:
Niac's Biting Cold
Icestorm
Elemental Damage Amplification Curse - Cold
Cone of Cold
Frost Lance
Snowball SLA
(Utility spells or nothing for 2 seconds)
Cone of Cold
Frost Lance
Niac's Biting Cold (2-stack)
Now rotate Cone of Cold, Frost Lance, Snowball SLA and restack Biting Cold when its seventh tick occurs.

Mana use - ~35/second (can't remember Sor12 typical SP - going to assume we have ~35 seconds of this, after which we stop casting and let DoTs finish
Damage output:
Niac's Biting Cold - 2 full 3-stacks (7 ticks each) plus 5 ticks of 1 and 2 stack each - ~4800
Icestorm - 2 casts, ~2700
Cone - 7 casts, 2150 damage
Lance - 7 casts, 1900 damage
Snowball SLA - 7 casts, ~560 damage
All x1.15 for the curse.

- total damage output - about 14000 damage over one minute; almost all within the first 35 seconds. DPS ~230. The damage is frontloaded (i.e. almost all of it within the first 40 seconds after which it's just an Icestorm ticking away and a few ticks of Biting Cold)


"Let's take it slow, and steady" approach
Sorc casts the following:
Niac's Biting Cold
Icestorm
Cold curse
Snowball SLA every four seconds
Biting Cold at 10, 20, 35, 50, 65 etc seconds
Cold curse as needed
Note that due to the spell selection, Heighten Spell can be used (if selected) to improve results. I will assume it is not.

SP usage - ~87 per 15 seconds
Endurance - Assuming 1225 SP (a guess), ~4 minutes

Damage output, all includes curse:
Biting Cold: 130 DPS (includes curse and assumes you do not apply it exactly on time after the 7th tick)
Snowball SLA: 23 DPS
Icestorm: ~50 DPS

Overall - 203 DPS
Total damage output before 1225 SP blown - ~50000. Enough to put a serious dent into Sinvala, even on Elite.

Overall comments:
This sorc will be pulling aggro at this level from Greensteel-equipped TRs, and despite all the nerfs our Savant friends have suffered on Lamannia recently, he still puts out an amount of damage that borders on ridiculous for this content.
The damage output of this sorc is so high that there is no reason to consider taking melees in groups at this level, except out of pity.



Case 2: Ungeared Sor20 vs Epic Velah
Immune to Fire, 25 Reflex save, 33 Fortitude, 350k HP

- chosen as she's the easiest of the endgame bosses, but is a big bucket of hitpoints, meaning that most groups refuse to take more than 1-2 arcanes on Live.


Assumptions:
- 36 Cha (ungeared Drow)
- Spell DC 26+spell level for Evocation
- 18% cold spell crit chance
- 275% cold spell crit intensity
- +50% cold damage from enhancements
- +20% electric damage from enhancements
- 75% Superior Freeze 8 item
- 50% Superior Potency 6 item
- Spells available: Niac's Biting Cold, Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Icestorm, Eladir's Electric Surge, Oitluke's Freezing Sphere
- Reports indicate that spell level increases do not affect Niac's Biting Cold or EES; as such I will assume caster level 20 for it and clvl26 for other cold spells.
- Player skill is sufficient to use Waves of Exhaustion, however due to it not lasting long on Velah, they will elect not to do so
- Upon request, a friendly player will cast Solid Fog on Velah, which is believed to apply a -5 Reflex save penalty. This will not always be active, and as such we will consider her Reflex save to be 23. Edit - it appears that Velah is immune to this effect, so her save is 25.
- All spells are Max-Empped. Heighten is not available.
- Reports conflict on whether the Bloodlines of Power Capstone is applied as a metamagic or an enhancement boost. I will assume a metamagic (as this gives poorer results)
- The player has partially specced into SP conservation on Maximize (-6 SP) and Empower (-2 SP) but has no loot that helps further here.

Boost to cold spells: 2.25 (enhancements/potency) x 2.7 (metamagics) x 1.315 (from crits) - spells do 799% of base damage. As I'm doing the maths here in my head, I'll call that 800%.

Damage per spell:

Niac's SLA - worthless (saves far too often; this isn't an Evocation spell so Spell Focus and a +2 DC item don't apply)
Niac's Biting Cold - 23.5 base damage; ~190 damage per tick per stack. Three-stacks for ~570 per tick (for the first 20 seconds this will average ~280 per tick). That's ~4k damage per cast, but on an effective 14 second cooldown.
Frost Lance SLA - Our Dragon saves on a 2. Base damage 32 per lance, becomes 256 per failed save, 128 per success - average ~400 damage per cast.
Cone of Cold - Base damage 90, actual damage 720/360. Fails save ~20% of the time; average ~440 per cast.
Ice Storm - Base damage 17.5, actual damage ~140 per tick. 2100 damage per cast, effective 30 second cooldown.
Electric Surge - Base damage 23.5 per stack per tick; ~290 per tick when 3-stacked (half damage first 20 seconds). ~2000 per cast beyond the second.
Snowball Swarm SLA - base damage 25, actual ~200/100, average ~110 per cast
Oitiluke's - Base damage 115, actual damage 920/460. Fails save ~25% of the time; average ~575 per cast.
Polar Ray - ~1k per cast


"Let's Burn Our Mana approach"

Sorc casts the following:
Niac's Biting Cold
Icestorm
Elemental Damage Amplification Curse - Cold
Eladir's Electric Surge
Polar Ray
Oitluke's
Cone of Cold
Frost Lance SLA
Snowball SLA
Polar Ray
Biting Cold
Cone of Cold
Electric Surge
Now rotate Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Snowball SLA, Frost Lance SLA and restack Biting Cold and Electric Surge when its seventh tick occurs.

Mana use - ~60/second (43 seconds until OOM)
Damage output:
Niac's Biting Cold - 2 full 3-stacks (7 ticks each) plus 5 ticks of 1 and 2 stack each - ~11000
Electric Surge (similar) - ~5500
Icestorm - 2 casts, ~4200
Oitluke's - 8 casts, 4600 damage
Cone of Cold - 7 casts, 3100 damage
Polar Ray - 8 casts, 8000 damage
Lance SLA - 5 casts, 2000 damage
Snowball SLA - 8 casts, ~880 damage
All x1.15 for the curse.

- total damage output - about 44000 damage over one minute; almost all within the first 35 seconds. DPS ~730. The damage is heavily frontloaded again.


"Let's take it slow, and steady" approach
Sorc casts the following:
Niac's Biting Cold
Icestorm
Cold curse
Electric Surge
Snowball SLA every four seconds
Frost Lance SLA every 8 seconds
Biting Cold at 10, 20, 35, 50, 65 etc seconds
Cold curse as needed
Note that due to the spell selection, Heighten Spell can be used (if the feat was taken) to improve results. I will assume it is not. Results with Heighten are slightly more ridiculous than those without.

SP usage - ~150 per 15 seconds
Endurance - Assuming 2500SP, ~4 minutes

Damage output, all includes curse:
Biting Cold: 310 DPS (includes curse and assumes you do not apply it exactly on time after the 7th tick)
Electric Surge: 140 DPS
Frost Lance SLA: 50 DPS
Icestorm: ~70 DPS
Snowball SLA: ~30 DPS

Overall - 600 DPS
Total damage output before SP blown - ~150000. Enough to do over 40% of Velah's HP in damage (before her regeneration is considered).

Overall comments:
Even on a savant that is not specced for it, Electric Surge is insanely OP. Niac's Biting Cold is worse still, by far. With those spells our friendly Savant dominates this raid. Without them, he would be a total gimp.
These numbers do not take into account the movement components of the Velah fight, which in practice reduce melee DPS by ~15% and caster DPS by ~7-10% (these figures are estimates only).
IMO those two spells could both be safely pushed up to level 9 spells, thus removing the easily-attained 75% potency items for them. Alternately, they should at the very least share a cooldown so that a caster cannot maintain both of them.
As is presently stands, there is no reason to consider bringing melees to this raid now, except to conserve SP on the pillars and to prevent Velah's cometfall.


Case 3: Epic Geared Sor20 vs Elite Horoth Immune to Fire, 80 Resist Cold - 65 effective, 29 base Reflex save + 4 for Shavarath = 33 effective Reflex Save, 41 effective Fortitude save, 350k HP.
Sorc build is The Chilblain - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=307720, and has all useful past lives.

- chosen as this is a fight against the paragon of outsiders - a foe with insane saves, HP and elemental resistances. Basically the last thing you would normally point a Savant at and expect good results.

- still to come; but my estimates are that this will have slightly lower damage output than the Velah encounter, due to Sorcs just not scaling well with gear. Some preliminary estiamtes are in the Chilblain thread, however, that thread is based on the initial Lamannia U9 build, not the present one, and contains some errors too.