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View Full Version : A Proposal To Balance Guild Stat Shrines



GentlemanAndAScholar
04-11-2011, 06:39 PM
Let me begin to say that I think they're fairly overpowered at lower levels (same as Yugo pots, but that's another thread altogether). I know this is not everyone's opinion, so please stay civil if you disagree and please avoid using /notsigned without any supporting evidence/argument.

The reason: While at higher levels +2 (fully stacking) stats are the chocolate icing on the bacon cake that most toons can do without, at lower levels they are very powerful (perhaps too much so). It's silly a lvl3 Wizzie (with +2 stat item (+4 if you can get bear endurance clicky), +2 Shrine, +40Hp Yugo pot, false life spell) can sport 100+ Hps. Similar with STR, for STR-based toons (20 base, +4 bull's, +2 Shrine, +2 Yugo) 28 STR on a lowbie is pretty disgusting. I used to use PnP as a reference to highlight the big difference and power creep of DDO, however, now it's gotten so far and worse that referring to PnP for comparison is border-line useless, which is the main motivation behind my displeasure with the current stat Shrines (and yes, Yugo pots as well).

My proposal: Make them give stats at the same rate as tomes. Lvls 1-2 cannot be used at all. Lvl3-6 they give only +1 stats. Lvls 7+ the shrines give +2 stats as they're now (for those guilds that have them). While this doesn't address the Yugo pot issue (which I'm sure can be discussed at length), it does address the issue of power creep and number inflation currently pervading DDO.

DragonTroy
04-11-2011, 06:51 PM
im sorry, but i really dont who this hurts. it certainly doesnt hurt the people who are getting them. the bigger the bacon cake, the better. and not to mention that anyone these low level people group with can get invited to their ship to enjoy the yummy buffs aswell. +2 strength does +1 additional to-hit and damage. kindof a small boost dont you think?

Morosy
04-11-2011, 06:55 PM
+40Hp Yugo pot

You sure you're getting 40 hp from it at level 3?

Seems like it'd be 23.

Bodic
04-11-2011, 06:56 PM
Let me begin to say that I think they're fairly overpowered
My proposal: Take it away from those that have earned it, because I havn't yet and its not fair.

Fixed
and its not that overpowering it is nice to have but not really a game breaker.

GentlemanAndAScholar
04-11-2011, 06:58 PM
Fixed
and its not that overpowering it is nice to have but not really a game breaker.

I thought I kindly asked to remain civil in your replies. I suppose you don't have a true argument, so you resort to ad homs.

Edit: Thanks for neg rep. It only makes my argument stronger.

GentlemanAndAScholar
04-11-2011, 07:00 PM
im sorry, but i really dont who this hurts. it certainly doesnt hurt the people who are getting them. the bigger the bacon cake, the better. and not to mention that anyone these low level people group with can get invited to their ship to enjoy the yummy buffs aswell. +2 strength does +1 additional to-hit and damage. kindof a small boost dont you think?

+1 Dmg (and to-hit), +1 AC (and REFLEX saves), 20 Hps (and +1 FORTITUDE saves), +1 DC for casters, (and extra +1 WIS AC to monks, +1 to WILLPOWER saves). All stacking with items, potions, enahncements. Yes, that's the very definition of overpowered.

shadow_419
04-11-2011, 07:06 PM
You do know that +2 con does not give you 20 hps at lower levels correct?

voodoogroves
04-11-2011, 07:09 PM
Personal opinion follows ...


I kinda think the DC boosts for casters is the largest benefit, but that's me. With the bajillion ways to boost things like STR, a +2 STR or DEX, etc. shrine really isn't that game breaking.

A max-stat caster that starts 18 + all levels and enhancements + reasonable items doesn't have many other places to nab DC boosts. There are no Madstone Goggles or Hats of Titans Mental Grip ... the impact of a +2 stat shrine for a DC based caster is far more significant than the physical stats or other misc buffs.

GentlemanAndAScholar
04-11-2011, 07:15 PM
You do know that +2 con does not give you 20 hps at lower levels correct?

I'm well aware and you are correct in that regard.

GentlemanAndAScholar
04-11-2011, 07:18 PM
Personal opinion follows ...


I kinda think the DC boosts for casters is the largest benefit, but that's me. With the bajillion ways to boost things like STR, a +2 STR or DEX, etc. shrine really isn't that game breaking.

A max-stat caster that starts 18 + all levels and enhancements + reasonable items doesn't have many other places to nab DC boosts. There are no Madstone Goggles or Hats of Titans Mental Grip ... the impact of a +2 stat shrine for a DC based caster is far more significant than the physical stats or other misc buffs.

Add to that +1 to enchantment from Phiarlan boat NPC and +1 Conjuration from Twelve boat NPC.

shadow_419
04-11-2011, 07:21 PM
I'm well aware and you are correct in that regard.

Just checking, because with you referencing +2 con shrine(20hp at lvl 20) and yugo con pots (+2 con & 20hp) as giving you 40 hp at low levels, I wasn't sure if you were aware.

skunk
04-11-2011, 07:23 PM
i just wish they would remove boats all together. That or just use them to move to place to place faster.

I do like your thing of when you can use the shrines. I hate someone joining group, oh i have to run get buffs. You don't need buffs at level 3. I can solo every thing were doing, so just shut up and come on, by the time your here, we could have finished 3 dungeons on elite.

they need to do something. Players are to lazy now days. Hell i don't normally even go to my ship, unless someone needs on my guilds.

Impaqt
04-11-2011, 07:27 PM
+1 Dmg (and to-hit), +1 AC (and REFLEX saves), 20 Hps (and +1 FORTITUDE saves), +1 DC for casters, (and extra +1 WIS AC to monks, +1 to WILLPOWER saves). All stacking with items, potions, enahncements. Yes, that's the very definition of overpowered.

Bulls Strength Clicky or Pot +2 To Hit and Damage
Rage Pot +1 To Hit and damage +2 Con (Few hit points)
Cats Grace Pot +2 AC and Reflex Saves
owls Wisdom Pot +2 WILLPOWER saves!!!! +2 DC
Heroism Pot +2 to hit and +2 to ALL saves
Divine Favor Clicky +1 to hit and Damage
Korthos Island Kits and Items +2 to Hit, +1 To Hit, + Spell Points yada yada yada....


Gettin too long....

Seriously, the boat buffs dont push anything "Over the edge" Buffs are part of the game, the boat buffs moderately useful at ALL character levels.... Good players spend a few days at "Low levels" New Players and Poor players need all the help they can get.. Boat buffs are hardly worth worrying about.

Nodia
04-11-2011, 07:28 PM
Must people always cry for a nerf of something. If you don't like it don't use it. Make your on LFM saying no ship buffed people. There is enough things wrong with this game for the Devs to fix without suggestions to fix someone elses game play. Worry about yourself not everyone else!

shadow_419
04-11-2011, 07:29 PM
Add to that +1 to enchantment from Phiarlan boat NPC and +1 Conjuration from Twelve boat NPC.

Either of which can be found on ml4 scepters and doesn't stack with any item giving you spell focus in those particular schools. Not exactly op in my book. It's not like most experienced casters aren't running around with masters touch + bulls str and killing stuff anyway at low lvls.

Thorzian
04-11-2011, 07:29 PM
if you don't like it, don't use it. you dont think they've thrown aenough nerf at us already now you're after our ships?

voodoogroves
04-11-2011, 07:33 PM
Bulls Strength Clicky or Pot +2 To Hit and Damage
Rage Pot +1 To Hit and damage +2 Con (Few hit points)
Cats Grace Pot +2 AC and Reflex Saves
owls Wisdom Pot +2 WILLPOWER saves!!!! +2 DC
Heroism Pot +2 to hit and +2 to ALL saves
Divine Favor Clicky +1 to hit and Damage
Korthos Island Kits and Items +2 to Hit, +1 To Hit, + Spell Points yada yada yada....


Gettin too long....

Seriously, the boat buffs dont push anything "Over the edge" Buffs are part of the game, the boat buffs moderately useful at ALL character levels.... Good players spend a few days at "Low levels" New Players and Poor players need all the help they can get.. Boat buffs are hardly worth worrying about.

The only ones we keep with regularity on our small guild ship are XP, Navigator and casting-stat boosters.

The bulk of guild buffs aren't truly worth the time in many cases. I only even accept invites from larger guilds when I'm about to do an epic raid. Not an epic, but an epic raid (or equivalent - I'd probably take them for VOD elite - but only if I was near the portal).

+1 DC on my wizard though ... I'll take that whenever, wherever and however I can.

Marcus-Hawkeye
04-11-2011, 07:36 PM
It's like a TR, all that work for just a tiny reward. A guild works together to build something and they get a reward for it. I don't see an issue with this. You figure by the time the primary population of a guild raises into something capable of supporting +2 shrines that they are getting tired of low level content and just want to get it over with quickly. The amenities help ease the crawl out of lower level areas. I find them very helpful on my road to completionist. I wouldn't want to see them changed as I like them where they are. Having to go back to the ship every hour seems more than a fair trade as far as I'm concerned.

sephiroth1084
04-11-2011, 07:37 PM
I agree that they are a bit much, but not sure they are too over the top to be in need of an adjustment. And, honestly, I feel like the bigger problem is in the stacking of multiple buffs, rather than simply the stat shrines. +1 attack from Str shrine, +2 from dummy (after 20 minutes spent beating it down), +1 from kobold... +1 attack and damage from the Str shrine is pretty minor, but +4 attack at level 3 is a pretty big deal. Heck, it's a pretty big deal for basically all of the game before level 14 or so and after level 19.


I wouldn't be against delayed-release stats based on levels similar to the way tomes function, but don't think they're really necessary, either.

Lithic
04-11-2011, 07:41 PM
+1 Dmg (and to-hit), +1 AC (and REFLEX saves), 20 Hps (and +1 FORTITUDE saves), +1 DC for casters, (and extra +1 WIS AC to monks, +1 to WILLPOWER saves). All stacking with items, potions, enahncements. Yes, that's the very definition of overpowered.

What you describe is slightly less than the completionist feat. I see that increase at lvl 3 every time I TR and I can tell you the difference before and after is not as big as you think. The twink items (which all characters can get and use) are MUCH more of a factor.

wax_on_wax_off
04-11-2011, 07:41 PM
I kind of have to agree. For any build with a monk level an equipped ship will give you +5 AC which is ridiculous in just about everything but epic. The +4 AB and +3-4 damage is also quite suspect.

I tell you what, if something happened to my ship buffs I'd stop playing my dex/wis monk (or rush him to level 20 and TR him) as the AC I can get on him with ship buffs (was 60 self buffed at level 13, has gone up marginally since then) is ridiculous.

Would I play a monk without access to ship buffs? Well, I did, and it was boring.

To recap, +3 damage, +4 AB, +5 AC is OP at all levels. +1 DC is crucial for my archmage and not having to equip a spell focus item is nice (she gets to 40 enchantment with the ship buff without amrath/epic gear).

What I'd like to see is a randomly generated or set shrine at the end of a quest. Give people without a ship a chance to get some buffs occasionally. Maybe in some really tough epic or elite content there could be +3 or +4 stat shrines, just for fun.

PopeJual
04-11-2011, 07:43 PM
Hey, OP, you're supposed to ask for airship nerfs when we don't have them and then say that they're just fine once we get them on our ship. We have +2 shrines now, so you need to fix that post quick! ;)

Actually, I do like the suggestion, but I think that it would be a reasonable change to the elemental resistance shrines instead. Make the resistance equal to what you would get if you had a caster equal to your level casting the spell on you (but for 1 hour instead of 3 minutes, etc).

Having elemental damage completely eliminated for the first 10-12 levels of the game takes a lot of the challenge out of the game and there's not a huge amount of challenge in the early part of the game once you get used to it even without the resistance altars.

dozkal-mo
04-11-2011, 07:47 PM
My proposal: Make them give stats at the same rate as tomes. Lvls 1-2 cannot be used at all. Lvl3-6 they give only +1 stats. Lvls 7+ the shrines give +2 stats as they're now (for those guilds that have them). While this doesn't address the Yugo pot issue (which I'm sure can be discussed at length), it does address the issue of power creep and number inflation currently pervading DDO.

Only if we get +3 and +4 Stat shrines as well that match player level scaling. Otherwise, what's the point in complaining about it? It's great for TR toons that are grinding like mad to get the stupid high XP that Turbine requires for them. Not only that, the existence of such shrines encourages the formations of guilds, which helps boost the entire point of D&D: party play! It makes sense to have such nice perks in being part of a guild that does well enough to earn such rewards. It's not like anyone can start a guild and get these shrines at level 1. You gotta work for it. Quit your whining. Sheesh.

muffinlad
04-11-2011, 08:02 PM
I would suggest that worrying about +2 to con at level s 1-10 is the same as worrying about electric eels when your car breaks down in the middle of a mountain snow storm.

It might be a real danger...just not one you are facing today, unless a truck full of electric eels breaks down beside you.

To make these stats buffs as you seem to think they are, they would have to do away with most of the other stat modifiers (as already detailed). I would not starting knitting sweaters for your eels just yet.

muffinjunglejack

petegunn
04-11-2011, 08:11 PM
Completely off topic but would one also propose to take the soldiers body armour, helmets, amoured support, artillery, air, naval, and intelligence support away also?

*Be the best you can be with the equipment at hand*

sirgog
04-11-2011, 09:46 PM
Low level I don't think the +2 stat shrines are particularly powerful at all. Tomes were given delayed onset for a different reason (characters that didn't eat a +2 Int tome at level 1 were weaker than ones that did, and there was no way to ever recover the lost skill points at the time)

Resist 30 shrines, on the other hand, let you stand in elite traps while you pick your nose in the Harbor. They trivialise the highest-damaging mobs in Harbor quests (elite Kobold Shamans can only curse you or damage you with their little-cast Niac's Cold Ray)

GentlemanAndAScholar
04-11-2011, 09:47 PM
Having elemental damage completely eliminated for the first 10-12 levels of the game takes a lot of the challenge out of the game and there's not a huge amount of challenge in the early part of the game once you get used to it even without the resistance altars.

Good point, pope. Resistance mitigation at lvls 1-6 (more if you take in to account dungeon scaling), and I can sit for one hour and all the casters nuking me with their flame strike and scorching rays and I can go afk, and be fine when I come back.

Vint
04-12-2011, 11:17 AM
Only if we get +3 and +4 Stat shrines as well that match player level scaling. Otherwise, what's the point in complaining about it? It's great for TR toons that are grinding like mad to get the stupid high XP that Turbine requires for them. Not only that, the existence of such shrines encourages the formations of guilds, which helps boost the entire point of D&D: party play! It makes sense to have such nice perks in being part of a guild that does well enough to earn such rewards. It's not like anyone can start a guild and get these shrines at level 1. You gotta work for it. Quit your whining. Sheesh.

Please NO!!! Even my lvl 2 Wiz wields a Greataxe till fireball. The best buff behind the xp is the 30 resistance.

/not signed. No flame intended, but are they coming after my carnifex and maelstrom next?

Musouka
04-12-2011, 11:28 AM
Next you're going to say that they need to up the Min Level of the Vibrant Purple Ioun Stone, since it will give level 5 sorcerers 400 SP.

EyeRekon
04-12-2011, 11:28 AM
At the risk of sounding insulting, this kind of elicits thoughts of a kid who reminds the teacher to assign homework or someone that asks government for higher taxes.

The elemental resists/30, IMO, are really the only thing remotely overpowering for lowbies. I would expect the guild resist buff to be better or equal to the resist/20 from House P favor.

Chai
04-12-2011, 11:39 AM
I dont feel that guild ship buffs are the issue here. I feel that what the OP describes is due to the entire accumulation of many stacking low level buffs, because of the fact that eberron is such a magic laden universe that when people sneeze, prizmatic spray comes out of their noses.

Adjusting ship buffs will do nothing for this situation except lessen the value of one buff. This would affect none of the other potions / cookies that can be had at those low levels. Now you have level 3 half orcs running aroud with 31 str instead of 32. /shrug.

stuticius
04-12-2011, 12:01 PM
whats next...some one going to say that people are leveling to fast so we should nerf xp shrine aswell O.o i personally like all the help i can get to blow thru the low lvl stuff...if anyone wants to spend more time doing those quests they are free to do so with or without the ship buffs. most of a toons life is not in those quests so i dont feel its game breaking or that its hurting any body if i hit the ship for a buff or two

Angelus_dead
04-12-2011, 12:08 PM
It's true airship buffs are overpowered for lowbies in many ways, but here's a viewpoint from which they're not effectively overpowered:

The lowbie game balance is already wrecked by twinking, and if the challenge has already been removed by stacks of 100 CSW, Haste, Bull, Bark, SOF, and etc potions, then buffing characters further will only shift it from 100% easy to 100% easy.

EyeRekon
04-12-2011, 01:19 PM
DDO exploded overpowered twinks with BtA Chronoscope loot & Event items (especially trinkets). The impact of guild buffs are small in comparison.

kernal42
04-12-2011, 01:31 PM
Boat buffs at low levels are fine.

The increase in ability gained from taking a ship full of buffs (including exp shrine) is simply not worth the time to take a ship full of buffs.

-Kernal

Draccus
04-12-2011, 01:46 PM
I agree with a lot of the other posters in this thread. Yes, +2 to all stats at level 1 is overpowered, but it's just one item on an incredibly long and growing list of absurdly overpowered features of DDO.

There are level 8 barbarians running around with 50 strength. Gary Gygax would roll over in his grave seeing a level 20 character with 50 strength so I bet he's just doing backflips at level 8 characters with 50 strength.

So while +2 to all stats simply for stepping onto your guild's boat seems ridiculous, there are other equally ridiculous stat modifiers that need to be addressed. +4 Tomes, Yugo Pots, +3 exceptional items, ToD set bonuses, psionic bonuses, profane bonuses, PrE bonuses, etc. etc. etc. all contribute to stupid-high ability scores.

But, even with this horrible power creep, Turbine still manages to provide us with entertaining, challenging content! To quote one of my favorite DDO players, Rocka, "Play the game as it is, not as it should be."

kratimas
04-12-2011, 01:56 PM
Although I have only gotten to use ship buffs a couple of times, I did not find them to be over powerful. They did indeed help but, I could have done without them as I normally do. However the main reason I would disagree with getting rid of this is, leveling from 1-7 is soooo easy that the only thing these buffs do is let you level a little bit quicker and that is all.

If you had to wait to get to say lvl 15 to get the +2 then that would be something different but, getting to lvl 7 is just easy IMO and taking a +1 from people until they get to 7 just seems like a waste of development time to me.

My two cents worth.

kernal42
04-12-2011, 02:03 PM
Incidentally, I think the stat buffs are among the least powerful ship buffs at low levels. They are wholly dwarfed by things like:

+AC
+2 to-hit
+2 damage
30 Resist !!!

-Kernal

Qezuzu
04-12-2011, 02:06 PM
Add to that +1 to enchantment from Phiarlan boat NPC and +1 Conjuration from Twelve boat NPC.

Because DC's matter so much at that level.

mystafyi
04-12-2011, 02:09 PM
Resist 30 shrines, on the other hand, let you stand in elite traps while you pick your nose in the Harbor. They trivialise the highest-damaging mobs in Harbor quests (elite Kobold Shamans can only curse you or damage you with their little-cast Niac's Cold Ray)

This, 1000% This

Dysmetria
04-12-2011, 02:15 PM
I really don't see what the big deal is here. If you feel these buffs somehow single-handedly remove the challenge from the lower levels, don't use them.

For added challenge insist those you run with don't use them either. And play permadeath. Naked. Blindfolded. With one foot.

iraiqat316
04-12-2011, 02:23 PM
Well, My Opinion, WHO CARES IF ANOTHER TOON USES SHIP BUFFS! 1.2.3. idc.

fuzzy1guy
04-12-2011, 02:39 PM
Add to that +1 to enchantment from Phiarlan boat NPC and +1 Conjuration from Twelve boat NPC.

Don't play a caster do ya.
These buffs add nothing as they stack with nothing at all.
If your guild is buying these buffs. They are wasting money.


Either way. You are perfectly free and able to NOT get ship buffs if you want some of this mythical "challenge" in harbor quests.

Hendrik
04-12-2011, 02:50 PM
If these buffs are so OP, simple solution is not to slot them on YOUR boat.

Let those that want to use them, for whatever reason, use them since they have met the requirements to do so.