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Tirisha
03-31-2011, 11:23 AM
As many of us know they are changing the stunning fist feat to use half your character lv instead of your monk lv too determine the DC. I propose that this be changed too 1/2 your monk lv+1/4 of all other combined lvs too avoid some absurd builds were a toon with only 2 monk lvs can easily achieve the same or even a higher DC than a full lv 20 monk that dumps nearly everything they can into their stunning DC ie:

a lv 20 Monk starting 18 wis+5 lv up points+3 enhancements+4 water stance=DC 30 (no gear included because it is irrelevant)

18 Fighter 2 Monk= 14 starting wisdom+2 wisdom=16wis=3 wis+3 kensai+4 fighter tactics= DC30

As you can see here you'd have to start with an 18 wisdom and dump every stat you have into Wisdom and operate in Water stance to have the same DC then somebody who just takes 2 monk lvs for evasion and 2 feats (one including stunning blow) and decides not to dump wis (I choose 14 cause it is the highest score without paying a bad rate ie it's cheap)

Also the fighter could make a significant sacrifice and start with 18 Wis while putting his lv up points into Wis+5 and wind up with a DC34 which is 4 higher stunning fist DC than any full Wisdom Water stance wielding lv 20 monk could ever obtain (gear and race variables aside because they are irrelevant)

do we really want fighters to be the best at using Stunning fist? Is that WAI?

PS: I'd love to hear what the Devs have to say about this.

Samadhi
03-31-2011, 11:27 AM
As many of us know they are changing the stunning fist feat to use half your character lv instead of your monk lv too determine the DC. I propose that this be changed too 1/2 your monk lv+1/4 of all other combined lvs too avoid some absurd builds were a toon with only 2 monk lvs can easily achieve the same or even a higher DC than a full lv 20 monk that dumps nearly everything they can into their stunning DC ie:

a lv 20 Monk starting 18 wis+5 lv up points+3 enhancements+4 water stance=DC 30 (no gear included because it is irrelevant)

18 Fighter 2 Monk= 14 starting wisdom+3 kensai+3 fighter tactics= DC28

As you can see here you'd have to start with a 16 wisdom and dump every stat you have into Wisdom and operate in Water stance to have a higher DC then somebody who just takes 2 monk lvs for evasion and 2 feats (one including stunning blow) and decides not to dump wis (I choose 14 cause it is the highest score without paying a bad rate ie it's cheap)

Also the fighter could make a significant sacrifice and start with 18 Wis while putting his lv up points into Wis+5 and wind up with a DC32 which is higher stunning fist DC than any full Wisdom Water stance wielding lv 20 monk could ever obtain (gear and race variables aside because they are irrelevant)

At the end of the day Devs I want you to ask yourself..... do we really want monks not to be the best at using Stunning fist? Is that WAI?

Even in your example, they won't be the best. The simple fact that their damage with fists will be so much lower will make it either a swap-weapons scenario (lowers DPS) or just hit for less scenario (obviously less DPS). Not even counting trying to build ki with your 18/2 fists of weakness.

The scaling bonus of fist-damage addresses your concerns just fine IMO. I see no problem nor loss of viability for my pure monk.

Alexandryte
03-31-2011, 11:27 AM
Better question:


Do you really want a fighter wasting kensai punching things?

Alexandryte
03-31-2011, 11:30 AM
Another question:


Why would a fighter be willing to use something that uses a stat he does not have over one he will have (STR for Stunning blow vs WIS for Stunning fist)?

If hes willing to give up 2 feat slots, more power to him....hes still gonna need to be unarmed every 6 seconds in order to use Stunning blow.

Greeka
03-31-2011, 11:32 AM
You make a very valid point here. The same thing can be said about rogues in game as well. I know a few rogue players that are extremely frustrated that a player can splash a single level of rogue and still be able to find every trap in the game and pretty much disable every trap as well even on epic. This in turn may result in monks being relegated to a party class not required like rogues are when there is a member that has splashed a level or two of the class.

The devs should go and take another look at this and may also consider looking at the splashing of a level or two of rogue has relatively crippled pure builds of that class too. Assassin build rogues can do large amounts of damage, and hearing some talk that they are unable to get into parties because people are looking for dps and do not believe they are capable of high dps is a sad state of affairs for this class too. If this change goes through it may relegate pure monk builds to that of a pure rogue and upset even more players as well.

elujin
03-31-2011, 11:40 AM
you forgot to add a bit more wis from enchantments that fighters don't get.
if only the same was true for tod you could have some nice fighter monk splashes

mebey somthing like a cleric /monk could benift from the change now but i can't think of many outhers

Soleran
03-31-2011, 11:44 AM
Even in your example, they won't be the best. The simple fact that their damage with fists will be so much lower will make it either a swap-weapons scenario (lowers DPS) or just hit for less scenario (obviously less DPS). Not even counting trying to build ki with your 18/2 fists of weakness.

The scaling bonus of fist-damage addresses your concerns just fine IMO. I see no problem nor loss of viability for my pure monk.

The advantage will be going 12 fighter/8monk warforge or rather the godhand build.

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 11:49 AM
Even in your example, they won't be the best. The simple fact that their damage with fists will be so much lower will make it either a swap-weapons scenario (lowers DPS) or just hit for less scenario (obviously less DPS). Not even counting trying to build ki with your 18/2 fists of weakness.

The scaling bonus of fist-damage addresses your concerns just fine IMO. I see no problem nor loss of viability for my pure monk.

Not necessarily A kensai specced unarmed fighter would at least deal competitive unarmed damage too monks if not more.

Alexandryte
03-31-2011, 11:50 AM
You make a very valid point here. The same thing can be said about rogues in game as well. I know a few rogue players that are extremely frustrated that a player can splash a single level of rogue and still be able to find every trap in the game and pretty much disable every trap as well even on epic. This in turn may result in monks being relegated to a party class not required like rogues are when there is a member that has splashed a level or two of the class.

The devs should go and take another look at this and may also consider looking at the splashing of a level or two of rogue has relatively crippled pure builds of that class too. Assassin build rogues can do large amounts of damage, and hearing some talk that they are unable to get into parties because people are looking for dps and do not believe they are capable of high dps is a sad state of affairs for this class too. If this change goes through it may relegate pure monk builds to that of a pure rogue and upset even more players as well.

Im sorry to say I disagree with you entirely on the matter of multiclassing and splashes.

If there were no perks to taking another class that could be interwoven into your class.....why would anyone be anything but a pure class?

Each time you deviate from your primary class you give up something in order to potentially gain some other ability. You give up a capstone. You can potentially miss out on tiers of a PrE. You must make sacrifices in the stat department for the class that you multi into to be effective. It is VERY easy to make a gimped build.

Its not splashes that have "crippled you ability to get into groups". Its blind stupidity of people for not bothering to learn about the classes they reject and the relative strength of the rogue class as a whole. What does a high lvl rogue with PrEs offer me? An assassin can instantly kill......and....???

If anything, if I were you, Id ask for situational abilities or skills later on in rogue progression. Trapmaking is nice step in that direction. Not a perfect step but a nice one.

elujin
03-31-2011, 11:52 AM
Not necessarily A kensai specced unarmed fighter would at least deal competitive unarmed damage too monks if not more.

not if you need points for wis

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 11:53 AM
Better question:


Do you really want a fighter wasting kensai punching things?

Well I wouldn't want to make unarmed combat undesirable too a kensai I don't want it to be better than a monk. Think about it 2 wpn specs=6 base damage 2 enhancments from fighter you'd be wielding D6+6 (average 10.5) verses 2D10 (average 11) before Kensai is even factored in. Lets not combine wind stance and wrap attack speed with a tricked out fighter haste boost O.o.

All hail the kensai unarmed fighters.

Edit only 2 wpn specs sry so it's slightly less op

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 11:53 AM
not if you need points for wis

you only need points for wisdom if you want to be the very best and in comparison to a wis build monk you'd still do better dps.

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 11:55 AM
Im sorry to say I disagree with you entirely on the matter of multiclassing and splashes.

If there were no perks to taking another class that could be interwoven into your class.....why would anyone be anything but a pure class?

Each time you deviate from your primary class you give up something in order to potentially gain some other ability. You give up a capstone. You can potentially miss out on tiers of a PrE. You must make sacrifices in the stat department for the class that you multi into to be effective. It is VERY easy to make a gimped build.

Its not splashes that have "crippled you ability to get into groups". Its blind stupidity of people for not bothering to learn about the classes they reject and the relative strength of the rogue class as a whole. What does a high lvl rogue with PrEs offer me? An assassin can instantly kill......and....???

If anything, if I were you, Id ask for situational abilities or skills later on in rogue progression. Trapmaking is nice step in that direction. Not a perfect step but a nice one.

I agree with your primary statement there should be a benefit too multiclassing and sacrificing your end cap..... but 2 monk lvs for 2 feats evasion and the highest obtainable Stunning fist DC in the game.... a bit OP don't you think?

Chai
03-31-2011, 12:00 PM
Another question:


Why would a fighter be willing to use something that uses a stat he does not have over one he will have (STR for Stunning blow vs WIS for Stunning fist)?

If hes willing to give up 2 feat slots, more power to him....hes still gonna need to be unarmed every 6 seconds in order to use Stunning blow.

Unarmed Kensai 12 monk 8 is a pretty popular build. Especially for TRs who have increases to unarmed damage dice. Each kensai tier has increase to tactics DC, and fighter levels do as well. Being a race that has tactics increase stacks if you use those enhancements too.

A warforged / dwarf str based monk 8 fighter 12.

10 start
10 stunning weapon
10 half character level
2 kensai 1 and 2
4 fighter tactics
2 first two tiers of racial tactics (could take a third tier at 6AP - pretty expensive)
------------------------------------------------------
38 - to get this to 45 you would need a 7 wis mod which is 24 wis.

Pure monk

10 start
10 stunning weapon
10 half character level
2 racial tactics (could take a third tier at 6AP - pretty expensive)
----------------------------
32 - to get this to 45 you would need a 13 wis mod which is 36 wisdom

Keep in mind that the fighter / monk multi will have a MUCH easier time getting a stunning blow DC high enough as well - as that is str based.

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 12:00 PM
I just want to point out that I didn't factor in water stance into the original DCs for the fighter/monk splash. So you can increase those DCs even higher.

xTethx
03-31-2011, 12:03 PM
I agree with your primary statement there should be a benefit too multiclassing and sacrificing your end cap..... but 2 monk lvs for 2 feats evasion and the highest obtainable Stunning fist DC in the game.... a bit OP don't you think?

Sacrificing 10% doublestrike and whatever weapon khopesh, greatsword etc. for 1 feat, evasion, stun fist, and using handwraps for trash/possibly bosses is not a good idea to me. If someone wants to sacrifice the dps to be able to have a chance for another stun more power to them. It just adds more possible creativity for multiclass builds.

If you are a good monk you will still be a good monk. It's the bad monks that will suffer from all these changes.

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 12:05 PM
Another question:


Why would a fighter be willing to use something that uses a stat he does not have over one he will have (STR for Stunning blow vs WIS for Stunning fist)?

If hes willing to give up 2 feat slots, more power to him....hes still gonna need to be unarmed every 6 seconds in order to use Stunning blow.

he could use both Stunning blow and Stunning fist in conjunction to be the absolute king of stunning. Provided you might want to spec handwraps too pull it off. Though this might be a little less dps than your average khopesh weilding fighter. Against epic trash you'd be unrivaled in CC ability and most likely dps considering you'll be getting 50% boost the most out of any other build. (assuming there isn't a more abusive split) All you need is 14 base wisdom to get a 40+ DC and you'd have your choice of water stance to up it or wind stance for the attack speed or fire stance for ki gen.

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 12:08 PM
Sacrificing 10% doublestrike and whatever weapon khopesh, greatsword etc. for 1 feat, evasion, stun fist, and using handwraps for trash/possibly bosses is not a good idea to me. If someone wants to sacrifice the dps to be able to have a chance for another stun more power to them. It just adds more possible creativity for multiclass builds.

If you are a good monk you will still be a good monk. It's the bad monks that will suffer from all these changes.

I don't think you understand how difficult it is to stun mobs in lammania. This build will be king of epics if this goes live as it is (unless there is a more abusive build).

Though that is not the problem I want to discuss. Whether this is good for a fighter too do is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that this build is arguably better at being an unarmed fighter than a capped monk.

Chai
03-31-2011, 12:11 PM
If you are a good monk you will still be a good monk. It's the bad monks that will suffer from all these changes.

Let me fix that for you.



If you are a geared out monk you will still be a geared out monk. It's the monks that arent fully geared that will suffer from all these changes.

There we go, thats better. I shouldnt need to wear epic gear to stun in epics. Thats putting the cart before the horse. I should be able to run epics effectively in TOD / Shroud digs in order to get that epic gear.

xTethx
03-31-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't think you understand how difficult it is to stun mobs in lammania. This build will be king of epics if this goes live as it is (unless there is a more abusive build).

Though that is not the problem I want to discuss. Whether this is good for a fighter too do is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that this build is arguably better at being an unarmed fighter than a capped monk.

So because you cant stun 100% anymore monks are useless? I've been on Lamma, and I've tested a mediocre stun blow on my fighter splash. W/o weighted and w/o power surge i was at a 42 DC on stun blow. I was relatively 50/50 in epic dq1. With monks possible doublestrike and ability to replicate stuns faster with stun fist it wont be as bad as you think. Monks are still gonna be awesome in epic content. Better than before update 9? Maybe, maybe not. You are still better off than the pick speced melees or casters who liked to woo woo stick helpless mobs.

xTethx
03-31-2011, 12:20 PM
Let me fix that for you.



There we go, thats better. I shouldnt need to wear epic gear to stun in epics. Thats putting the cart before the horse. I should be able to run epics effectively in TOD / Shroud digs in order to get that epic gear.

What epic gear is gonna help you stun in epics? Ravens sight? You could get that in a day and you dont even have to run your monk to get it. If you only have your monk as a toon then go out and run it as often as your play time allows. Fens isnt that hard.

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 12:22 PM
So because you cant stun 100% anymore monks are useless? I've been on Lamma, and I've tested a mediocre stun blow on my fighter splash. W/o weighted and w/o power surge i was at a 42 DC on stun blow. I was relatively 50/50 in epic dq1. With monks possible doublestrike and ability to replicate stuns faster with stun fist it wont be as bad as you think. Monks are still gonna be awesome in epic content. Better than before update 9? Maybe, maybe not. You are still better off than the pick speced melees or casters who liked to woo woo stick helpless mobs.

Did I ever say monks are useless? What I said was that an 18 fighter/ 2 monk is better at using stunning fist and arguably better at unarmed combat in general than a 20 monk. If this is true doesn't it require fixing?

you can't get doublestrike on stunning fist and 50/50 is on a weak fort mob atm on a wisdom build monk (being reasonable 16 starting wis+5 lv up points) on a Str/dex build monk Stunning fist is not gonna be worth the ki in costs on a lot of mobs in epics.

Chai
03-31-2011, 12:23 PM
So because you cant stun 100% anymore monks are useless? I've been on Lamma, and I've tested a mediocre stun blow on my fighter splash. W/o weighted and w/o power surge i was at a 42 DC on stun blow. I was relatively 50/50 in epic dq1. With monks possible doublestrike and ability to replicate stuns faster with stun fist it wont be as bad as you think. Monks are still gonna be awesome in epic content. Better than before update 9? Maybe, maybe not. You are still better off than the pick speced melees or casters who liked to woo woo stick helpless mobs.

I have seen conflicting lamma reports, including my own experience which conflicts with yours. The solid research on this however, was done before the minion debuff, when old epic mobs had all the same saves they will have again in U9. All they are doing is removing the minion debuff.

As far as pick specced melee who cranked out shroud weapons, yeap, that sucks. Its down to either khopesh or eSOS now if you want to be the best. Picks lost their niche.

I think monk DPS will still be good, its the arbitrary saves epic mobs have that we have been questioning. How easy is it for an arcane to build for a ~45 DC, which still gets saved against, alot.

Darkrok
03-31-2011, 12:29 PM
Honestly this has me very excited on my TR. I'm in the middle of a TRx3 going 12/8 human to blitz through the 3 TR's (taking the passage dragonmarks to add mobility and considering putting Kensei off by one level to take ranger just for the sprint boost - faster movement = faster completions. With this change stunning fist and stunning blow both would be viable for that build.

I'm starting to wonder if I even want to be pure as a final build now. They've taken so many things away on the pure side that I might end up going with a 12/8 as a final build. Godhand or something similar. It's frustrating but they've really done a number on the pures here.

Darkrok
03-31-2011, 12:31 PM
I have seen conflicting lamma reports, including my own experience which conflicts with yours. The solid research on this however, was done before the minion debuff, when old epic mobs had all the same saves they will have again in U9. All they are doing is removing the minion debuff.

As far as pick specced melee who cranked out shroud weapons, yeap, that sucks. Its down to either khopesh or eSOS now if you want to be the best. Picks lost their niche.

I think monk DPS will still be good, its the arbitrary saves epic mobs have that we have been questioning. How easy is it for an arcane to build for a ~45 DC, which still gets saved against, alot.

I almost think it's going to be necessary to have multiple fighter past lives + dwarf/wf'd/half elf (fighter dilettante) to be competitive in stunning as a monk. Happily I think that's the direction I'm going right now.

Jacoby
03-31-2011, 12:36 PM
As many of us know they are changing the stunning fist feat to use half your character lv instead of your monk lv too determine the DC. I propose that this be changed too 1/2 your monk lv+1/4 of all other combined lvs too avoid some absurd builds were a toon with only 2 monk lvs can easily achieve the same or even a higher DC than a full lv 20 monk that dumps nearly everything they can into their stunning DC ie:

a lv 20 Monk starting 18 wis+5 lv up points+3 enhancements+4 water stance=DC 30 (no gear included because it is irrelevant)

18 Fighter 2 Monk= 14 starting wisdom+3 kensai+3 fighter tactics= DC28

As you can see here you'd have to start with a 16 wisdom and dump every stat you have into Wisdom and operate in Water stance to have a higher DC then somebody who just takes 2 monk lvs for evasion and 2 feats (one including stunning blow) and decides not to dump wis (I choose 14 cause it is the highest score without paying a bad rate ie it's cheap)

Also the fighter could make a significant sacrifice and start with 18 Wis while putting his lv up points into Wis+5 and wind up with a DC32 which is higher stunning fist DC than any full Wisdom Water stance wielding lv 20 monk could ever obtain (gear and race variables aside because they are irrelevant)

At the end of the day Devs I want you to ask yourself..... do we really want monks not to be the best at using Stunning fist? Is that WAI?

My question would be WHY? What purpose does stunning even serve anymore? Post Nerf, if you focuss on Wisodm and Dex your Stregnth is gonna suck and with no auto crit your paultry damage will be completley insignificant. Dex and AC builds are now completely insignificant. And if you ground out a couple MINII picks to make your build around I really feel for you, your probably ready to commit suicide.

Chai
03-31-2011, 12:41 PM
I almost think it's going to be necessary to have multiple fighter past lives + dwarf/wf'd/half elf (fighter dilettante) to be competitive in stunning as a monk. Happily I think that's the direction I'm going right now.

Yeap, 3 fighter and 3 monk past lives to shore up the base DPS, and the stun DC gets even better. And since you ground the gear to be a monk you could be a 12 / 8 three times and pure three times. Then final it out to be whats best at the time, which appears to now be the 12/8.

Chai
03-31-2011, 12:43 PM
My question would be WHY? What purpose does stunning even serve anymore? Post Nerf, if you focuss on Wisodm and Dex your Stregnth is gonna suck and with no auto crit your paultry damage will be completley insignificant. Dex and AC builds are now completely insignificant. And if you ground out a couple MINII picks to make your build around it I really feel for you, your probably ready to commit suicide.

Naaaa.

Before U9: autocrit = 2 x base damage + 1x every burst effect you have.

After U9: helpless = 1.5 x base damage + 1.5x every burst effect you have, and you can still roll crits which are given another 1.5x as well.

Its not the DPS I am worried about, its the stun DC needed to be effective, and how much we need to gimp a pure monk in other areas to get it.

I agree on the picks, and the kensai who specced into them because its a PITA to respec kensai every time the nerf bat gets swung.

HGM-Chi
03-31-2011, 12:46 PM
The advantage will be going 12 fighter/8monk warforge or rather the godhand build.

My HOrc 12/8 split is grinning a little. On the inside. I'm going to get him over to lama and see how his Stunning Fist turns out.

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 01:01 PM
My question would be WHY? What purpose does stunning even serve anymore? Post Nerf, if you focuss on Wisodm and Dex your Stregnth is gonna suck and with no auto crit your paultry damage will be completley insignificant. Dex and AC builds are now completely insignificant. And if you ground out a couple MINII picks to make your build around I really feel for you, your probably ready to commit suicide.

you don't even have to focus on it as a fighter/monk split you can just start with 14 wisdom and have the same dc as a max Wisdom build monk.

Stunning still CCs and 50% damage is nothing to laugh at. *especially with spells now* Considering how hard it is too CC on a max geared wizard even... they need the help from melees more than ever.

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 01:03 PM
OP edited I didn't factor into the Fighter monk splash's DCs the 4th Tier of fighter tactics (didn't know there was 4 tiers) or the water stance.

Missing_Minds
03-31-2011, 01:15 PM
You make a very valid point here. The same thing can be said about rogues in game as well. I know a few rogue players that are extremely frustrated that a player can splash a single level of rogue and still be able to find every trap in the game and pretty much disable every trap as well even on epic.

Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons. The skill system is setup such that you can do just that. This is NOT your standard MMO that cookie cuts every class.

Rogues get zero extra bonus for that unless they go into mechanic. Other wise investing.... 4, 8,... 8 ap for +4 search, +4 DD really isn't enough to make them better than a "batman".

This is why do you NOT make a trap monkey, unless you want to pike.

Feralthyrtiaq
03-31-2011, 01:17 PM
Sacrificing 10% doublestrike and whatever weapon khopesh, greatsword etc. for 1 feat, evasion, stun fist, and using handwraps for trash/possibly bosses is not a good idea to me. If someone wants to sacrifice the dps to be able to have a chance for another stun more power to them. It just adds more possible creativity for multiclass builds.

If you are a good monk you will still be a good monk. It's the bad monks that will suffer from all these changes.

YOU MY FRIEND R AWESOME! :)

Xhiron Rhex Khyber TR Lvl 18 Shintao 3 Monk

domecek1
03-31-2011, 01:17 PM
is it matter, if you have pure monk or splash monk? I am going to do do 12figter/7monk/1rogue with 50DC with stunning fist end geared and 45DC stun blow wisdom based(4level ups into wis). I also wanted to do pure monk, but it rly doesnt change playstyle and I love UMD.:)

Tirisha
03-31-2011, 02:55 PM
is it matter, if you have pure monk or splash monk? I am going to do do 12figter/7monk/1rogue with 50DC with stunning fist end geared and 45DC stun blow wisdom based(4level ups into wis). I also wanted to do pure monk, but it rly doesnt change playstyle and I love UMD.:)

you don't think it's wrong that your stunning fist DC will be higher than somebody who investing wholly in the monk class instead of trained in it a little?

Baahb3
03-31-2011, 03:11 PM
There we go, thats better. I shouldnt need to wear epic gear to stun in epics. Thats putting the cart before the horse. I should be able to run epics effectively in TOD / Shroud digs in order to get that epic gear.

I play a couple of monks and I am going have to disagree here.

Epics should be a difficult until you get that epic gear to make it easy. Epics should not be easy until you get that epic gear to make it really easy.

domecek1
03-31-2011, 06:07 PM
you don't think it's wrong that your stunning fist DC will be higher than somebody who investing wholly in the monk class instead of trained in it a little?

Its not about if I think it is wrong. Its about playstyle. Will it ruin your item build? I would also like to do pure monk stunner, but I found easier way and it dont ruin my item build or playstyle. Well builded wis based pure monks should be able to stun mobs even after update 9.

You will have to use wraps still, so I dont see any problem here...

Tirisha
04-01-2011, 03:33 AM
Its not about if I think it is wrong. Its about playstyle. Will it ruin your item build? I would also like to do pure monk stunner, but I found easier way and it dont ruin my item build or playstyle. Well builded wis based pure monks should be able to stun mobs even after update 9.

You will have to use wraps still, so I dont see any problem here...

They will be able to stun mobs I've tested my Wis build Monk in Lammania however it takes a lot more investment for a Monk to pull it off than a Fighter O.o Stunning Fist is too monk as Sneak Attack is too Rogue. Let me rephrase: Would you be okay if a Fighter Rogue Splash could obtain more SA than a pure rogue that dedicated every last build point and AP he could to increasing his SA value?

Tirisha
04-01-2011, 03:37 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3690648&postcount=25

baddax
04-01-2011, 03:48 AM
They will be able to stun mobs I've tested my Wis build Monk in Lammania however it takes a lot more investment for a Monk to pull it off than a Fighter O.o Stunning Fist is too monk as Sneak Attack is too Rogue. Let me rephrase: Would you be okay if a Fighter Rogue Splash could obtain more SA than a pure rogue that dedicated every last build point and AP he could to increasing his SA value?


Monks bring much more to the table than just stunning.Epic DR,Abundant step,healing curse, great ac and saves. Even if a fighter can bring a higher dc stun they still have to have the ki to pull it off and from what i hear ki will be in much shorter supply without autocrit. All im saying is this may be a good one dimensional build but i dont think it takes away what monks bring to the table.

Tirisha
04-01-2011, 04:00 AM
Monks bring much more to the table than just stunning.Epic DR,Abundant step,healing curse, great ac and saves. Even if a fighter can bring a higher dc stun they still have to have the ki to pull it off and from what i hear ki will be in much shorter supply without autocrit. All im saying is this may be a good one dimensional build but i dont think it takes away what monks bring to the table.

Actually read this post: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3690648&postcount=25 This details the ki Generation situation.

The short answer on both a pure monk and a fighter you're gonna do little else than just use stunning fist. A lv 20 monk with capstone generates Ki at the same rate as a fighter with 1 lv of monk.

I'm not saying Stunning fist is the only thing monks got *though it's certainly the best thing* they bring more too the table but so do fighters. Fighters don't need to be better at the Monks *butter* so to speak. It's kinda like if a monk was able to easily obtain a higher number of SA dice than a Rogue that dedicated every aspect of his build towards sneak attack.

baddax
04-01-2011, 04:16 AM
I agree with you and actually think monks should get 1-1 per level and let the multiclass builds have the 2-1 dc's.

krisz93
04-01-2011, 12:34 PM
Even if you can get the same DC with multiclasses, you have to spend a lot more action points.
Dwarven/WF Tactics chain costs 12AP. Fighter tactics cost 10 AP.

Tirisha
04-01-2011, 01:11 PM
Even if you can get the same DC with multiclasses, you have to spend a lot more action points.
Dwarven/WF Tactics chain costs 12AP. Fighter tactics cost 10 AP.

AP well spent considering it applies to both stunning blow and stunning fist. For a pure monk to even indirectly increase their stunning fist DC they'd have to spend 21 AP in wisdom and water stance to get potentially 3 DC if they have an odd wisdom and use water stance. Where as you are spending 22 AP for what is it +7 too both stunning blow and Stunning fist. (not extremely familiar with the WF/Dwarf tactics line).

Many people have stated that the monk should get a tactics line and I think that would be a step in the right direction.

Also it's not the same it is higher *which is the unbalancing factor*

grodon9999
04-01-2011, 01:14 PM
Even if you can get the same DC with multiclasses, you have to spend a lot more action points.
Dwarven/WF Tactics chain costs 12AP. Fighter tactics cost 10 AP.

Which I had little trouble fitting in my dorf-kensai.

Tirisha
04-01-2011, 10:41 PM
Which I had little trouble fitting in my dorf-kensai.

Trouble fitting AP on a kensai O.o Madness!:p

DethTrip
04-04-2011, 08:18 AM
I 100% agree with you Tirisha. No way should any other class or multiclass be able to have a higher stunning fist DC than a pure monk that has used all monk resources to spec for it. Monks are really getting the shaft hardcore and without lube in this update/monk nerf...Thanks Devs for bringing so much fun and balance to this game...

ckorik
04-04-2011, 08:49 AM
Agreed - someone that focuses on DPS should not be as good of a stunner.

Leaving class out of it.

That means a dark monk should not be as good at stunning as a fighter that builds to stun.

A monk that goes all Wis for stunning is not going to be dark - if you are going to play 'can gimp build made to do one trick do it better than XXXX' then be real - a monk built to stun is never going to be a dark monk.

In this case a light monk will have 2 stuns - one of them will save. They will have one other 'stun' usable on *most* endgame mobs, also will save.

A Kensai gimp stunning fist/blow build can have 2 stuns - both fort save.

I don't see the issue here - but please compare apples to apples. I really don't see an issue with dark monks who are far and away better dps than light monks being worse at stunning.