PDA

View Full Version : major price increase for european players - what is the reason for it?



Gizeh
03-30-2011, 10:52 AM
After the ddo store was localized I noticed that the prices for turbine point packages have increased. I wanted to know if the prices had gone up in general, so I asked an american player if he could check the current prices. It turned out that the prices haven't changed for US players, which means that european players have to pay more for tps now than american players.

Turbine points...........US price...........................european price..................% increase
600 pts....................$7.99 (eur 5.68)................$9.85 (eur 6.99)...............+23.28%
1600 pts..................$19.99 (eur 14.20).............$24.63 (eur 17.49)...........+23.21%
2600 pts..................$29.99 (eur 21.31).............$36.60 (eur 25.99)...........+22.04%
5000 pts..................$49.99 (eur 35.48).............$61.99 (eur 43.99)...........+24.00%

average percentile price increase for european players................................+23.13%

(currency conversions according to http://www.xe.com/)

I wouldn't mind if I had to pay a few cents more due to rounding, e.g. eur 5.99 for a 600 pts pack, but a price increase of almost 25% is way too much.

I sincerely hope this was just a mistake, as I paid the US prices for the point packs I bought so far and can't see a reason for the price increase, and that turbine will fix this soon.

Timmeke123456
03-30-2011, 10:54 AM
Noticed that too... & wondering why this is... ALtho there are players stating that recently a VAT was added to the price of tp bundles...

QuarterMasterM
03-30-2011, 12:06 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

Cade_Wells
03-30-2011, 12:12 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

in that case i'll be expecting to see a VAT number on reciepts and does this mean that the relevant country will be recieving revenue from this?

CeltEireson
03-30-2011, 12:14 PM
And it would probably have been good practice to actually draw this to the attention of the players rather than them having to go hunting for an answer.

Cade_Wells
03-30-2011, 12:15 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

also each country will have its own VAT ammount and the VAT in UK is 20% how come the % change for each point amount? i.e. ranging from 23%-24% if it was for VAT surely the amout increase should be the same across the board?

Bloodstealer
03-30-2011, 12:15 PM
Well I say simple solution is ... not to buy anymore points... heck EU never had the option before so no point worrying about it now.

Why shouldnt we able to choose which currency we pay in - if my card issuer chooses to charge me a tiny amount for exchange transactions thats my choice...

Do all the other countries in this global game get to pay all kinds of rates to due to their differing tax rates.... lemme guess...

dunklezhan
03-30-2011, 12:16 PM
in that case i'll be expecting to see a VAT number on reciepts and does this mean that the relevant country will be recieving revenue from this?

Right now their accountants get to stand on their breifcases wielding gigantic calculators screaming "BY THE POWER OF WARNER BROTHERS! IIIII HAAAAAVE THE BANK BALAAAAANCE!" while lightning flashes in the background and they're forced into exceedingly nippletastic leather harnesses, while their pet cats cower behind them waiting for the armour to get strapped on.

I'm very, very not happy about the price increases - but I'm not worried about Turbine not having the tax stuff in order in the relevant countries now they have the might of a multinational conglomerate doing their tax returns.

I do worry they might start releasing content on different continental schedules as the movie companies still inexplicably do.

SiliconShadow
03-30-2011, 12:17 PM
Sorry I am not spending $10 for 500 points, I used to spend money month on points but now I won't be buying any.

In the uk the price was before £4.35 NOW £6.19

With the price rises in the UK as it is this is unreasonable and won't be accepted. :mad:

AZgreentea
03-30-2011, 12:17 PM
Ah, the joys of owning an international business.

This is why all my plans/dreams for a business only include local stores...

Dogmanus
03-30-2011, 12:19 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

Thats all very nice that efforts are being made to better support us European players, So does that mean that sometime soon we will see the down times not in our peak times of game play?

Dexol
03-30-2011, 12:19 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

So we can assume you will be adding US sales tax for the yanks then..........

Flavilandile
03-30-2011, 12:21 PM
also each country will have its own VAT ammount and the VAT in UK is 20% how come the % change for each point amount?

Yeah, and on my side of the Chunnel it's 19.6%
Definitely not 23something %

I'm going to be grumpy herald of grumpyness, but seriously you ( Turbine ) could have :
- warned that it was going to happen
- told us on what it's going to apply and on what it's ( enventually ) not going to apply.
- done your homework, we have the Euro, but that doesn't means that VAT is the same in all the European Union Countries. ( and what about those not in the EU and not in the US ? do they also end up paying EU VAT too ? )

dunklezhan
03-30-2011, 12:22 PM
Sorry I am not spending $10 for 500 points, I used to spend money month on points but now I won't be buying any.

In the uk the price was before £4.35 NOW £6.19

With the price rises in the UK as it is this is unreasonable and won't be accepted. :mad:

it appears subscriptions via the account page are still in $. Might actually be a VIP perk worth having for euro types...

dozkal-mo
03-30-2011, 12:24 PM
Is there a price increase for European customers for the VIP service, too?

Chai
03-30-2011, 12:24 PM
VAT is required to be collected by the seller for online purchases in the UK - sucks but its true. Was the lower price reflecting they werent paying VAT in the past? This is what the explanation of the price increase implies after all. Many UK citizens will have a VAT number for one reason or another showing they are entitled to make overseas purchases sans paying the tax. Does Turbine have this option available?

Try having something shipped to Brazil from out of country once....their tax is nearly 100%. /barf

Teharahma
03-30-2011, 12:26 PM
I always paid 49.99 for the 5k deal (6900 mostly :D)
I live in the Netherlands.

Farayon
03-30-2011, 12:26 PM
If not for some angry and inquisitive threads, when exactly were Turbine planning to announce this openly?

Missing_Minds
03-30-2011, 12:26 PM
So we can assume you will be adding US sales tax for the yanks then..........

The US (to my knowledge) does not have a Federal sales tax. Sales tax is per state. I think at most that would hit people is a tax for "entertainment" should the state in question deem it worthy to go after. (.05% was the "entertainment" tax in AR back in my high school days.)

Asketes
03-30-2011, 12:28 PM
"VAT is also charged on goods, and some services, that are imported from places outside the European Community EC and on goods and services coming into the UK from another EC Member State. Your taxable supplies, distance sales, or acquisitions are expected to exceed £67,000 in the next 30 days, or if you are already trading, and they have exceeded £67,000 in the past 12 months.[/COLOR] Alternatively, if you have taken over a VAT registered business as a going concern. Then: you must notify your Customs and Excise local VAT office immediately of liability to register for VAT."

So is Turbine is exporting Turbine Points into the UK? The thing is, I was under the impression they owned the rights to those points?

"When you sell goods or services that incorporate a VAT charge you must supply your customer with a VAT invoice. Generally the VAT invoice should include the VAT amount paid, your companies VAT registration number, a unique invoice number and the date the invoice was raised."

Are the folks in those areas getting these?


http://www.ukincorp.co.uk/s-1E-vat-v...istration.html

dunklezhan
03-30-2011, 12:32 PM
Is there a price increase for European customers for the VIP service, too?

not yet - the prices are still in USD. If you're going to sub, do it NOW before they catch up with that too.

Chai
03-30-2011, 12:43 PM
So we can assume you will be adding US sales tax for the yanks then..........

American law does not require the seller to collect sales tax for sales outside the state the purchase is being made in. They would have to collect it in their home state, but not in any other state.

UK VAT is required to be collected by the seller for international online sales which do not involve delivery of a physical product.

Now if Turbine was based somewhere other than the US, there is a US duty that needs to be paid, as I have seen this in MMOs that are not based in America. They usually just include it in their price as well.

HellsChaos
03-30-2011, 12:43 PM
the VAT sucks, but nothing anyone can do about it.
I live in Canada and do pay a federal sales tax, but I have never had it affect any online purchases. I pay the USD and nothing else (besides the conversion rate of course). If I lived overseas, I would stop buying points in protest, but doubt that it would do any good.
The alternative, of course, would be to have separately run DDO stores in each country, thereby ensuring unique and individual pricing, but I doubt that will happen too.

whitehawk74
03-30-2011, 12:51 PM
Thats all very nice that efforts are being made to better support us European players, So does that mean that sometime soon we will see the down times not in our peak times of game play?
Hell yeah. Thank-you for pointing that out.
Now i dont expect Turbine / Warner to give a rats arse about the Australian players because there are not many of us, but it's the middle of the day in Europe when US EDT is 6am? (about 10pm here)

If you are going to use the word 'GLOBAL' then please, please act global.

Greyhawk6
03-30-2011, 12:52 PM
Lol...over on EQ2 we had the exact same problem : here's a link to a relevant thread on their forums

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=493940

SOE eventually reduced the price after a lot of pressure.

Seriously though Turbine, this is extremely bad form for not informing non-US customers of the price increase. Very poor.

slimkj
03-30-2011, 12:56 PM
I understand the need for you to charge VAT. I don't think that the increased price reflects good value any more. It's an opinion - I don't expect you to necessarily do anything about that, but there it is. I can't see me paying $61.99 for the top bundle.

It'll be interesting to see if you react with price cuts to the bundles for EU customers to keep sales up. Lots of goods sellers in the UK for example advertise "We pay the VAT" deals at the moment as they know cost of living has gone up, wages have stagnated, etc. and that they just can't sell at the old prices any more.

Zero_Tolerance
03-30-2011, 12:59 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT.

I'm in Spain. Maximum VAT is 18%, 8% for entertainment, culture etc. Not even close to 24%.

Bedsorian
03-30-2011, 01:02 PM
Well I'll be voting with my feet. When my TPs run out I'm finished here. I'd agree, $62 is not good value for 5000 TP so it'll be good bye and convert for F2P.

Turbine have rattled the European cage again and the fall out will be considerable for their profits.

testing1234
03-30-2011, 01:07 PM
dont feel like getting sneak attacked at end of buying points by the hidden ninja VAT

Hendrik
03-30-2011, 01:10 PM
Thats all very nice that efforts are being made to better support us European players, So does that mean that sometime soon we will see the down times not in our peak times of game play?


As soon the HQ and servers move there, yea.

Til then, no.

agent00skid
03-30-2011, 01:11 PM
VAT is 25% in Denmark. Still not doing it right.

Though haven't actually bought any, so haven't seen the price for myself.

ShotByBothSides
03-30-2011, 01:13 PM
..........Seriously though Turbine, this is extremely bad form for not informing non-US customers of the price increase. Very poor.

I don't usually complain bitterly, but this is a stealth price hike, yes it is related to VAT, but no prior warning is just very poor show indeed.

I will not be buying any more TPs until I see the price reflect more of the old pre VAT pricing, which I suspect will be never, for that would mean big revenue losses for Turbine.

Easier and more internationally friendly!
Let me quote one of the NPCs in the inn at 3 barrel cove – “bollocks”

Zero_Tolerance
03-30-2011, 01:14 PM
VAT is 25% in Denmark. Still not doing it right. :P

And 18% max, or 8% for entertainment in Spain. Somehow slapping that 23-24% across the board doesn't quite look like adding VAT. More like rip-off.

Every country has it's own VAT rates, so dumping one increase on all of us hardly can be explained as 'adding VAT'

Jendrak
03-30-2011, 01:16 PM
Hell yeah. Thank-you for pointing that out.
Now i dont expect Turbine / Warner to give a rats arse about the Australian players because there are not many of us, but it's the middle of the day in Europe when US EDT is 6am? (about 10pm here)

If you are going to use the word 'GLOBAL' then please, please act global.

Either way you look at it someone is goign to get their peak hours cut into one way or the other. This decision is most likley based on the current business hours and availability of staff at the office and not play hours.

Instead of GLOBAL i think the real tag word should be BUSINESS. Its all about the bottom line and if they can protect profits by doing regular business during regular hours (for them) the both you and I should just accept that fact because it isnt going to change.

Ducaster
03-30-2011, 01:18 PM
I see the Turbine customer prevention Department have been at it again.

Good heavens T-bine warn your (semi) contented customers first!

OK I get the fact that it MIGHT ( ah say might) be a needful compromise to set a single blanket % for VAT, fair enough. But honestly how hard would it have been to post on the forums along the lines of:

"uh sorry guys the Euro chancellors want their pounds of flesh we're gonna have to charge VAT at 24% from NEXT MONTH to stay legal"

Folks would have still been annoyed but they would have been annoyed at their respective chancellors and not you guys for having to follow the law of the counties your online trading with!

C'mon guys THINK things through somewhere...!
Your great at designing game content but have you no one with a drop of PR savvy in the marketing department! I am frankly astounded by this.

Winteris
03-30-2011, 01:30 PM
i just checked, im EU player and im using international game client, prices for me r still in $ and biggest pack cost 49.99.

BTW i knew it that localization will be nothing but problems, soon we will get updates delayed few months because of localization issues, old time EU players probably remember that comedy/tragedy.

Madrigan
03-30-2011, 01:50 PM
I'm playing this game now since 2006 and I'm sick of being treated as an idiot, first by CM, now Turbine is doing same. No one can tell me that VAT is really such high that the EUR price is 25% higher compared when I'm paying in USD.

It's the usual thing: they want to make more money the easy way like they did when they transferred our toons to Ghallanda so they got loads of money when we had to move to another server.

Another issue that makes me such angry is that no player is getting a special price or any benefit for buying a certain amount of Turbine points - for example: if you buying 20k TP every month then you should get 10% or 20% off, especially if you think about the insane price for a virtual currency like TP: 5000 TP for 50 USD. But well I know what some guys will answer now: it's a fair price as long as there are ppl willing to pay. Right, but from my point of view it's enough now and I will concentrate far more on things in rl and tbh Turbine makes it very easy for me to maybe change later in year to swtor (when it will be released) and giving my money away to Bioware - not that they might be follow rules of better customer treatment but I'm willing to give them a chance to convince me that they're better.

Zero_Tolerance
03-30-2011, 01:51 PM
i just checked, im EU player and im using international game client, prices for me r still in $ and biggest pack cost 49.99.

BTW i knew it that localization will be nothing but problems, soon we will get updates delayed few months because of localization issues, old time EU players probably remember that comedy/tragedy.

That may depend on the credit card they have on file. My client is from past year, around summer. I didn't download any new one, and I have prices in EUR. My credit card and billing address is in Spain, I'd say they're using this info for pricing.

CeltEireson
03-30-2011, 01:53 PM
And 18% max, or 8% for entertainment in Spain. Somehow slapping that 23-24% across the board doesn't quite look like adding VAT. More like rip-off.

Every country has it's own VAT rates, so dumping one increase on all of us hardly can be explained as 'adding VAT'

Not that I particularly like having to pay extra but even the idiots that set EU policy don't ask a company based outside the EU to have a seperate price for customers in every single different EU country - far as I understand it they can pick which country in the EU they can be registered in and have all VAT transactions handled by that country. And most EU countries have a standard VAT rate of between 20-25%.

http://uk.ask.com/wiki/European_Union_Value_Added_Tax

See the section under "importation of goods".

But as many have said - you tell people in advance of these kind of changes, not when you're doing it and certainly not after the fact.

pal_sch
03-30-2011, 01:54 PM
No one can tell me that VAT is really such high that the EUR price is 25% higher compared when I'm paying in USD.Well, depends on where you live.

But yes. (http://www.tmf-vat.com/vat/eu-vat-rates.html)

Note that Turbine has to pay the VAT regardless of if they charge us for it or not. If they don't add it onto their prices then sales to EU players will make them less money than the same sales to US players. I'm not sure that would leave them inclined to add more EU friendly services...

Rantanplan
03-30-2011, 01:58 PM
Dear Turbine,

i live in Germany and i have this very strong currency (EURO), why should i pay more for the same amount of Points as any other Gamer who are paying in USD. I feel that i´m not equal as a player who lives in a country where the USD is the currency.

Even if i compare the conversion charge between Europe and Germany it can´t be 43.99 EURO or 62 USD for 5000 points.

Befor you changed it i payed 49.99 USD or 35.50 EURO so plz explain me the gap.

At my side i get more lags my connections has more than 10% loss and my bing got up to 130 ms compared to an europe account. I playe for ages in english language i talk to the coustomesupport in english as well.

If i have to pay in EURO i want the same deal codmasters had for the europe coustomers who is 14.94 Euro for 1 month.

With regard

AZgreentea
03-30-2011, 02:07 PM
Well, depends on where you live.

But yes. (http://www.tmf-vat.com/vat/eu-vat-rates.html)

Note that Turbine has to pay the VAT regardless of if they charge us for it or not. If they don't add it onto their prices then sales to EU players will make them less money than the same sales to US players. I'm not sure that would leave them inclined to add more EU friendly services...
So basicaly, if Turbine dosent charge the players Vat, they loose 18-25% of their profit from every transaction?

Now I really hope the feds dont impose a federal level sales tax on the internet...

wez
03-30-2011, 02:08 PM
getting charged vat for renting virtual currency
that buys nothing we own....oh the pain
and we are paying for something that is in the us and won't be deliverd to uk or e.u

Rantanplan
03-30-2011, 02:45 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

And thx for the support i don´t can buy any point w/o creditcard or paypal where i have to book manualy money on it to get points.

so i have to know that i need points in 3 days so i can book money on my paypal acc and then in 3 days i can buy points.

Yes service life.

and i only can say i like the blood hound gang

Blackbird
03-30-2011, 02:46 PM
So we can assume you will be adding US sales tax for the yanks then..........


The US (to my knowledge) does not have a Federal sales tax. Sales tax is per state. I think at most that would hit people is a tax for "entertainment" should the state in question deem it worthy to go after. (.05% was the "entertainment" tax in AR back in my high school days.)

You are correct, sales tax is SOLELY a state tax issue (although nothing would preclude a federal sales tax). Many states do not charge sales tax on online sales of electronically delivered products (including ebooks, songs, software, etc). Even if there were states that did (I'm actually not aware of any that do) there would be federal limits on whether states could require Turbine to collect the sales tax if Turbine did not have a physical presence in the state (see, e.g., National Bellas Hess and Quill Corp).

So, the short answer is -- no, Turbine would not be collecting sales tax on point purchases from US customers due to the current state of most state laws and federal constitutional limitations. They probably could collect MA sales tax if MA taxed e-goods but then probably only for MA residents. I'm not a SALT (state and local tax) expert.

Septimus-Boldrei
03-30-2011, 03:11 PM
getting charged vat for renting virtual currency
that buys nothing we own....oh the pain
and we are paying for something that is in the us and won't be deliverd to uk or e.u

At least we don't have to worry about import duties :)

From the T&C:
"Turbine Points are a virtual currency which you may, at Turbine’s discretion, exchange for virtual goods, services and attributes that can only be used in the Game. Turbine Points have no monetary value, and are not personal property."

Vazok1
03-30-2011, 03:12 PM
When raising kids you can not give a certain amount of pocket money to one child and not give the same to the other.

Vordax
03-30-2011, 03:16 PM
When raising kids you can not give a certain amount of pocket money to one child and not give the same to the other.

Yes you can. I do it all the time, my 16 year old needs* much more than my 8 year old.

Vordax

* in her minds eye.. works out in practice too though.

Winteris
03-30-2011, 03:17 PM
Well, depends on where you live.

But yes. (http://www.tmf-vat.com/vat/eu-vat-rates.html)

Note that Turbine has to pay the VAT regardless of if they charge us for it or not. If they don't add it onto their prices then sales to EU players will make them less money than the same sales to US players. I'm not sure that would leave them inclined to add more EU friendly services...

God save us from more friendly services from Turbine. Its a expensive friendship.

Vazok1
03-30-2011, 03:19 PM
lol I guess, but you know the point I was trying to make I assume.

Winteris
03-30-2011, 03:19 PM
That may depend on the credit card they have on file. My client is from past year, around summer. I didn't download any new one, and I have prices in EUR. My credit card and billing address is in Spain, I'd say they're using this info for pricing.

So as i supposed, people in US just dont know where Poland is placed. Please do not tell them :)

Vordax
03-30-2011, 03:23 PM
Dear Turbine,

i live in Germany and i have this very strong currency (EURO), why should i pay more for the same amount of Points as any other Gamer who are paying in USD. I feel that i´m not equal as a player who lives in a country where the USD is the currency.


From what I understand you are getting pretty much the same amounts points per pre-tax dollar that a US resident is.

Turbine isn't the one charging you more per point, its your government that is. Get rid of the VAT and your prices will be equal.

Now I do agree that there should have been advance warning. They should have said that after this update the store will now be properly including the VAT for all point purchases.

Vordax

ShotByBothSides
03-30-2011, 03:26 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

Sorry, but how does "to better support our European players" include unannounced price rises!

Argila
03-30-2011, 03:29 PM
If we, European, are going to pay VAT then i demand to know if Turbine/WB is going to deliver the amount they are taking from tax to the respective buyers countries.

The VAT amount you are charging IS NOT YOURS Turbine!

That VAT amount is of the buyers country.

And if, as QuarterMasterM replied, 'Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales' is true, it requires you to deliver the tax amount to the respective respective buyers countries.

If not, then you just using the VAT excuse to increase you revenue.

Hokiewa
03-30-2011, 03:30 PM
From what I understand you are getting pretty much the same amounts points per pre-tax dollar that a US resident is.

Turbine isn't the one charging you more per point, its your government that is. Get rid of the VAT and your prices will be equal.

Now I do agree that there should have been advance warning. They should have said that after this update the store will now be properly including the VAT tax for all point purchases.

Vordax

Wow...a well thought out post full of reason and non-partisan views....

Is it the 1st yet...

I find this troubling....

stoerm
03-30-2011, 03:34 PM
Re. "exporting Turbine points", "virtual currency" etc. - You're buying a service from Turbine. The European Union requires that US companies levy a tax on services sold to the EU. If you're upset complain to your MEP. You know, the people that make the decisions these days. Turbine is only following the rules.

Turbine's customer relations could have handled this a tad better, however.

Dragavon
03-30-2011, 03:44 PM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

There are 30 odd countries in Europe, each with indivial VAT rules and laws applicable for something like buying Turbine Points.

I do not for a second believe Turbine adheres to each country's rules and regulations, and until you can prove that you do you should not charge VAT.

wez
03-30-2011, 03:48 PM
turbine are still overcharging if they are doing it for vat,why same for so many countrys when vat is not the same in those countrys

kevroar-eu
03-30-2011, 03:54 PM
I wonder if we will all get a VAT invoice now when we buy any TP.

"HMRC ruled that if you charge VAT for goods, irrespective of end use, and given that UK law overrides any Terms and Conditions applied by the provider of goods or services upon which VAT is charged, any business or person registered in the UK for VAT who is charging UK VAT on said goods and services are obliged to provide a VAT invoice"

Blackbird
03-30-2011, 03:57 PM
There are 30 odd countries in Europe, each with indivial VAT rules and laws applicable for something like buying Turbine Points.

I do not for a second believe Turbine adheres to each country's rules and regulations, and until you can prove that you do you should not charge VAT.

This I can believe. If players for different countries are seeing the same price (i.e. a player in Spain is seeing the same prices as a player in Germany and they have different VAT rates) then, if I had to venture a guess, I would suspect Turbine is applying a blended rate based on currency (i.e. it's easy to figure the UK since it's in pounds but the Euro could be multiple countries). If that is the case (and it is pure speculation) then they would be overcharging some and undercharging others.

How it works in the US with state sales taxes is that the company has the legal duty to collect the tax and remit it to the taxing authority. If the company collects too little, they are still responsible for the full amount to the taxing authority and must make up the difference. If they collect too much they must refund to the extent they can identify the customer who was overcharged. This is the big problem here in the US since most of the time there is no way to identify. After that I'm a little less sure on what the law is. I suspect they do not get to keep it but instead must either donate it to charity or remit it to the government but it would be based solely on local law.

Of course, without more information, this is entirely speculative. I don't know if they are applying a blended rate and/or what their method of determining individual country sales are. Regardless, they probably have a legal duty to collect and can't just avoid that duty because it's hard to administer.

Argila
03-30-2011, 04:00 PM
Do you have any proof that any of the merchants you purchase goods from are remitting their taxes? When you go down to your local store and purchase something subject to VAT do you require the merchant to provide you with proof that he remits the tax before you will pay? I would seriously doubt it.

I suppose you want to be sure Turbine is paying its income taxes as well? Tax enforcement is the purview of governments, not individual consumers.

As i said before, i don't want to start a war here with anyone. It was not me that started putting VAT in the prices and didn't warn anyone before.

Speaking the case i know (i work in the tax area in my country), to make sure the tax value is delivered (or at least to largely increase the probability of it), putting it simple, when paying something we ask for a document that is similar to a receipt.

This document can be easily traced by the tax inspectors to make sure all values are delivered.

Now, will we get a similar document?
UK VAT invoice or similar document depending of country?

Also, in the final confirmation window when buying points (when you choose the payment method), i see the price increase but the Sales Tax field is 0 (zero)...

wez
03-30-2011, 04:14 PM
so i can buy vip for $9.99 and get 500 tp free or i can buy 500 tp for $9.45 approx and get 100 tp free
this make people feel ripped off
i say people it makes me feel like somone trying to overcharge me

Cade_Wells
03-30-2011, 04:42 PM
I just can't believe that they did this with no notice etc its totally shocking and appualing customer service,

anyone know how to set up an online petition i think we need to cause a major fuss over this

Extispex
03-30-2011, 05:03 PM
I would have to pay 25% VAT, but fortunately I still have the prices in USD.

Not that I ever have or will buy TP, but it's good to see the low prices. :D
Incidentally, I've never seen the dollar so cheap before compared to the currency of my country.

Dogmanus
03-30-2011, 05:12 PM
Im would like too know why after so long that now it appears that players from europe are going to be charged more as it seems to be tied to vat that this has not happened before as im sure there has been a lot of players been playing in the US for years without any extra charge?

Kza
03-30-2011, 05:19 PM
If i have to pay tax (that is ok for me im a swede lol)... I want that to get to my country, are you giving those money you colllect to the countries they belong or are they going to Turbines own pocket?

I want a clear receipt from shop, i think you break the law adding vat wo clearly show that.

MrBlackHawk
03-30-2011, 05:54 PM
Will these price hikes be tracking the exchange rates? If not the gap could widen even more.

dunklezhan
03-30-2011, 06:02 PM
Re. "exporting Turbine points", "virtual currency" etc. - You're buying a service from Turbine. The European Union requires that US companies levy a tax on services sold to the EU. If you're upset complain to your MEP. You know, the people that make the decisions these days. Turbine is only following the rules.

Turbine's customer relations could have handled this a tad better, however.

This right here. Bolded for emphasis, Quoted For Truth.

LondonGer
03-30-2011, 06:09 PM
I think that this needs looking into..,,

karl_k0ch
03-30-2011, 07:35 PM
VAT in Germany is 19%, btw.

So even if the VAT should need to be applied here, the two countries Turbine is obviously aiming at (France and Germany), do not have a VAT of 23%, but it is 19.6%, and on the other side of the Rhine, it's 19%.

Where do these extra 4% come from, and what are your actual prices pre-VAT?

SiliconShadow
03-30-2011, 08:19 PM
The price hike to UK customers is 42% come on that isn't even close to our VAT amount, European players see the servers down in our peak times, we have a higher latency and less people to play and enjoy our game with that american customers, yet we pay A LOT more now for the same points?

I am boycotting turbine points and I can tell you now I spent a lot on points before today, astral diamonds, packs, xp potions I spent a lot, until these prices are reviewed the prices are now to expensive, it isn't viable to be premium in the UK anymore only VIP.

I hope a lot of European players follow suite this isn't a fair deal. :mad:

Ardalis
03-30-2011, 09:22 PM
Yep feel I'm been ripped off here also, will be demanding a VAT reciept for any purchase from now on. Strange how turbines idea of more support for euro players equates to charging them more.

burnettcj
03-30-2011, 10:33 PM
Well - turbine did tell the other worlds :
See LOTRO


Dec 23rd 2010, 16:00 GMT
Changes to VAT laws
As of January 4th, 2011 and in line with new UK legislation regarding VAT pricing, all purchases made via Codemasters Online billing systems, including the Player Account System and the LOTRO in-game Store will be charged inclusive of 20% VAT.

The good news is for all players on existing recurring subscription plans, there will be no increase, the extra VAT will be absorbed by Codemasters!

This tax increase will be applicable to all players on the European servers and will be charged appropriately.

If you'd like to enjoy the cheaper VAT rate then login to your Player Account and take out a recurring subscription before 4th January 2011.

If you already have an open VIP subscription on a recurring payment option, then you need take no action to continue paying at your existing, lower rate.

Falco_Easts
03-30-2011, 11:47 PM
Hell yeah. Thank-you for pointing that out.
Now i dont expect Turbine / Warner to give a rats arse about the Australian players because there are not many of us, but it's the middle of the day in Europe when US EDT is 6am? (about 10pm here)

If you are going to use the word 'GLOBAL' then please, please act global.

Please stop giving us Aussies a bad name.
You play a global game based on US servers where the large majority of players are US based. Accept that and you will be a lot happier.

Auran82
03-31-2011, 12:44 AM
Please stop giving us Aussies a bad name.
You play a global game based on US servers where the large majority of players are US based. Accept that and you will be a lot happier.

The funniest thing in the world is still when there is downtime during US peak times, the forums explode like the world is ending.

Over the years, I have personally gotten used to downtimes during Aussie peak times.

Dacron123
03-31-2011, 12:58 AM
I think that the point is that if Turbine can show that they are ACTUALLY PAYING the VAT then it is a valid charge increase. If not then they are simply using the VAT thing as cover for a price hike for EU players.

Note that Turbine are only referring to "charging" VAT - they make no reference to paying VAT. If they were paying the VAT then it would have to be per customer and to the customer's Tax authority.

If Turbine can show that this is what they are doing - then fine. If not then it is a duplicitous, fraudulent and discriminatory price hike.

At least in game the prices will remain the same so I guess my little 100 favor dwarf character will be running around even more!

Until Turbine can show they are actually paying the Tax as well as charging it - I for one won't be buying anymore points across my two accounts.

Looking forward even more now to Guild Wars 2!

Chemineur
03-31-2011, 02:15 AM
This very morning you could buy 1.41 dollars for 1 euro. Average VAT in Europe is 20%; any raise in price converted to euros justified by VAT is either a show of gross incompetence or an outright lie: euro price should be 15% lower than dollar prices including VAT : 1/1.41*1.2=0.85
This is my first post in years, litteraly, but if Turbine wants to kill the game in Europe, they are right on the tracks.

A very angry "VIP" account client.

Alaudae
03-31-2011, 02:16 AM
"Dec 23rd 2010, 16:00 GMT
Changes to VAT laws
As of January 4th, 2011 and in line with new UK legislation regarding VAT pricing, all purchases made via Codemasters Online billing systems, including the Player Account System and the LOTRO in-game Store will be charged inclusive of 20% VAT."

"This tax increase will be applicable to all players on the European servers and will be charged appropriately."

So britains laws overrule every other european countries laws, eh?
Do they pay to GB it all, do they pay at all. If they pay, how would they be able easily sort out how much goes to every country.

Only thing i know for sure, this VAT really should die.

For once, even if economics is boring, Turbine should have made a clear announcement how they are doing this thing.

Cade_Wells
03-31-2011, 02:27 AM
Well without the break down of the VAT amounts on the receipts they are breaking the law anyhow..........

so when will someone from turbine comment on this?

EatSmart
03-31-2011, 02:28 AM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

This is not strictly true, as is obvious by the convenient rounding seen in the euro amounts (they're all 0.99 or 0.49 amounts) which would not be the case for a dollar amount that's converted and had a % of tax added. There is also a discrepancy between what you're claiming our VAT is and what our actual VAT is, which has yet to be explained.

I would have been more understanding if this had been in release notes, or a seperate announcement.

Ugumagre
03-31-2011, 02:32 AM
One picture that explains all:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/wimpow/alterthedeal.jpg

Jiirix
03-31-2011, 02:41 AM
Turbine wants me to pay a higher "local" price? OK. But then I want:

- Server on the same continent then I am
- A localisation that doesn't appear to have been created with the google translator
- Ingame support in my mother tongue
- Correct billing according to the laws of my country, because then I can be sure turbine has to actually pay the VAT to my country, and is not just charging it

Is that to much to aks for?
No? Then I happily will buy more points.
Yes? Then I wont buy any more points.

bigolbear
03-31-2011, 02:41 AM
having just checked the store it would seem that there has been about a 15% price increase compared to when i last purchased points in $US although this would of course be including the fee my credit card company charged me for conversion.

I have no issues with turbine for abiding by international law and charging us VAT on the proviso that my receipt for purchase of points includes a VAT number - turbine please make sure it does, some of us will be claiming it back ;)

please dont blame turbine for slapping on the standard EU VAT - blame your government.

Winteris
03-31-2011, 03:02 AM
I think that Turbine should cover some part of VAT, there is no cost to produce turbine points. I know that it will decrease Turbine income but i think that 24% increase in prices will for sure stop some players from buying TP bundles and decrease Turbine income also.

Lowering the price to 40$ per biggest TP bundle would make the price EU player have to pay almost exactly the same as we paid before a change. That is -19%, but any decrease in price would be good.

Argila
03-31-2011, 03:06 AM
"Dec 23rd 2010, 16:00 GMT
(...)
So britains laws overrule every other european countries laws, eh?
(...)


Exacly, not all European countries demand VAT in virtual goods trading.
What will happen to those amounts? Turbine pocket? UK?



Well without the break down of the VAT amounts on the receipts they are breaking the law anyhow..........
(...)

Also, the confirmation buy point screen (where you choose the payment method) clearly shows a 0 (zero) as the Sales tax.
It also misses the VAT number and it doesn't show what is the percentage of VAT applied.



(...)I am boycotting turbine points and I can tell you now I spent a lot on points before today(...)

Also doing it.
Until this is clarified and a proper receipt is given.

Daunth
03-31-2011, 03:22 AM
"Dec 23rd 2010, 16:00 GMT
Changes to VAT laws
As of January 4th, 2011 and in line with new UK legislation regarding VAT pricing, all purchases made via Codemasters Online billing systems, including the Player Account System and the LOTRO in-game Store will be charged inclusive of 20% VAT."

"This tax increase will be applicable to all players on the European servers and will be charged appropriately."

That can make sense, but this statement mentions EUROPEAN SERVERS, while Turbine servers (where all the points are located) are american. Turbine points never leave the US, and they're used to buy virtual goods which stay in the american server. Nothing is being exported.

Nospheratus
03-31-2011, 03:28 AM
Does this mean that Turbine has been illegally selling TPs to European players until now?

karl_k0ch
03-31-2011, 03:33 AM
Does this mean that Turbine has been illegally selling TPs to European players until now?

This is an interesting question.

Argila
03-31-2011, 03:36 AM
(...)Turbine points never leave the US, and they're used to buy virtual goods which stay in the american server. Nothing is being exported.

This is a very good point.
We are in fact not exporting Turbine Points or goods to the UE. We are just exporting our 'EU' cash to the US since all stays on the US servers.

Ugumagre
03-31-2011, 03:44 AM
Does this mean that Turbine has been illegally selling TPs to European players until now?

Thinking a bit, I am quite sure that services from USA are NOT charged with VAT in Europe.

Cade_Wells
03-31-2011, 04:11 AM
I suggest we all raise customer service tickets and see what they have to say

mikesharpshooter
03-31-2011, 04:15 AM
Yes you can. I do it all the time, my 16 year old needs* much more than my 8 year old.

Vordax



wrong.
when your 8 years child will be 16 you will give him the same amount of money ;-)

yibble
03-31-2011, 04:28 AM
Also doing it.
Until this is clarified and a proper receipt is given.

Same here, I will no longer be purchasing Turbine Points (and I was a frequent purchaser) until the UK legal requirements are met through changes to the billing / receipt system.

Ugumagre
03-31-2011, 04:29 AM
This is a very good point.
We are in fact not exporting Turbine Points or goods to the UE. We are just exporting our 'EU' cash to the US since all stays on the US servers.

I have asqued the expert in my company (Account Manager or whatever you call it), and she told me that services from the USA are not charged with VAT.
For example, if you rent a server in the USA for setting a webpage, you dont pay VAT.
If you buy templates for Joomla, you dont pay VAT.
For my VIP subscription, I dont pay VAT.
So, it is plain Bos Taurus excrements. It is just that the dollar is very low, and they think they should adjust the price in Europe. Apple sells the iPad for 499$ in USA, and for 499 € in Europe (just an example, I havent checked the prices).
Of course, if the dollar would be very high, they wouldnt adjust anything.

llyrnionfor
03-31-2011, 04:48 AM
The increase in price you are seeing in GBP and Euros is due to VAT. Part of our undertaking to better support our European players includes following European requirements such as adding VAT to online sales.

Thanks for your understanding!

I believe you should separate two distinct issues here.

1. Following European requirements. Although the details on how you're doing this (e.g., how will you pay each EU country the VAT you collect) are still unknown, I won't dwell on this subject. You do what you must.

2. Better supporting your European players. That, dear sir, you are not doing.

Regarding point 2, if I may draw your attention to this: http://www.gog.com/en/page/tw2v2, particularly this little bit: "Since the EU price is almost $16 more than the price in USD, we’re giving our EU customers a $16 credit to purchase anything on GOG.com".

This is providing better service to your costumers.

SlogUK
03-31-2011, 05:01 AM
Yeah I left it there for flavour :) - it looked naked without it.

MrLarone
03-31-2011, 05:01 AM
to be fair it's just gone 5am EST.

though if they've discovered how to remove ???? from the meme a lot of people are gonna get rich to day =p

wez
03-31-2011, 05:42 AM
That can make sense, but this statement mentions EUROPEAN SERVERS, while Turbine servers (where all the points are located) are american. Turbine points never leave the US, and they're used to buy virtual goods which stay in the american server. Nothing is being exported.

^^this
i would have thought the only thing exported is information to our pc from server

Necromisiek
03-31-2011, 06:05 AM
Actually , it should be taxed.

Accordnig to the article 58. of the Council Directive 2006/112/EC
The place of supply of electronically supplied services, in particular those referred to in Annex II, when supplied to non-taxable persons who are established in a Member State, or who have their permanent address or usually reside in a Member State, by a taxable person who has established his business outside the Community or has a fixed establishment there from which the service is supplied, or who, in the absence of such a place of business or fixed establishment, has his permanent address or usually resides outside the Community, shall be the place where the non-taxable person is established, or where he has his permanent address or usually resides.

Where the supplier of a service and the customer communicate via electronic mail, that shall not of itself mean that the service supplied is an electronically supplied service.

Annex II in turn shows the example list of electronically supplied services:
INDICATIVE LIST OF THE ELECTRONICALLY SUPPLIED SERVICES REFERRED TO IN POINT (K) OF ARTICLE 56(1)

(1) Website supply, web-hosting, distance maintenance of programmes and equipment;

(2) supply of software and updating thereof;

(3) supply of images, text and information and making available of databases;

(4) supply of music, films and games, including games of chance and gambling games, and of political, cultural, artistic, sporting, scientific and entertainment broadcasts and events;

(5) supply of distance teaching.

So Turbine should pay VAT, but it also should deliver VAT invoices to its customers, show its VAT ID number and inform customers what part of the price is actually VAT.

Nospheratus
03-31-2011, 06:22 AM
Actually , it should be taxed.

Accordnig to the article 58. of the Council Directive 2006/112/EC
The place of supply of electronically supplied services, in particular those referred to in Annex II, when supplied to non-taxable persons who are established in a Member State, or who have their permanent address or usually reside in a Member State, by a taxable person who has established his business outside the Community or has a fixed establishment there from which the service is supplied, or who, in the absence of such a place of business or fixed establishment, has his permanent address or usually resides outside the Community, shall be the place where the non-taxable person is established, or where he has his permanent address or usually resides.

Where the supplier of a service and the customer communicate via electronic mail, that shall not of itself mean that the service supplied is an electronically supplied service.

Annex II in turn point the example list of electronically supplied services:
INDICATIVE LIST OF THE ELECTRONICALLY SUPPLIED SERVICES REFERRED TO IN POINT (K) OF ARTICLE 56(1)

(1) Website supply, web-hosting, distance maintenance of programmes and equipment;

(2) supply of software and updating thereof;

(3) supply of images, text and information and making available of databases;

(4) supply of music, films and games, including games of chance and gambling games, and of political, cultural, artistic, sporting, scientific and entertainment broadcasts and events;

(5) supply of distance teaching.

So Turbine should pay VAT, but it also should deliver VAT invoices to its customers, show its Tax ID number and inform customers what part of the price is actually VAT.

The legal words always seem to be made to confuse people. I'm not an expert, but seems like this particular business Turbine/Player isn't covered by all this just by reading the first paragraph.
Besides that, Turbine isn't supplying a game. It's supplying a service, not sure that's included there.

I'm not an expert though, so I may be wrong!


One thing that is very important to make notice of is, not everyone is from the UK!


It could mean that Turbine is paying some tax on their side for "exporting a service" (if that even exists). If this is the case, it's really Turbine doing it on purpose to charge the European customers more than the others. Does this (being charged more) happen with everyone from other parts of the world as well?


And a question for Quartermaster:
Is the subscription price on already existing subscriptions being updated?

Necromisiek
03-31-2011, 06:28 AM
Well, according to the quote above, supply of games is a service. And the quoted bill is a Council Directive - it is EU law, so being outside UK doesn't matter (as long as you are within EU).

Phemt81
03-31-2011, 06:31 AM
I just managed to convince a friend to pay 1 euro (via cellphone transfer) to become premium after days of talking and when he goes to the ddo store... puff! No cellphone transfer and price got increased from 6,50 bucks to six POUND (he lives in UK now...).

Nice way to lose customers.

Turbine you really should think about re-doing you points bundle, they should start from a minimum of 2-3 euros, like a ringtone... and use cellphone payments as before, just try to imagine the kids market you will gain from this.

Better 100 vip subscription for 3 months or 10.000 one time points shop at 2 euros?

Oh, it's so HARD to understand marketing on these crisis days... :D

pal_sch
03-31-2011, 06:33 AM
I've done a little research on this and unless Turbine was ignoring the tax previously, they would have been required to pay VAT on all European sales.

One of the changes in Directive 2002/38/EC (http://www.ibls.com/internet_law_news_portal_view.aspx?id=2121&s=latestnews);
(c) When a non-EU operator supplies electronic services to an EU customer, the place of taxation, according to the Directive, is within the EU and therefore those services are subject to VAT. For instance, a US e-commerce software company electronically delivering services to an Italian individual or business is subject to VAT because the place of taxation is deemed to be within the EU. For this purpose, the foreign supplier must register with a tax authority in one EU Member state to collect and remit the VAT every three months.I can't find details about which state they are registered in. I know they are partnered with Codemasters over LOTRO and Codemasters are a UK company, so my first guess would be they are registered in the UK, but that's only a guess.

As for the prices not reflecting US prices + VAT exactly, my money is on their prices only being revised every few months (at best) rather than live with exchange rates. Changing prices often would only cause more problems with players.

parvo
03-31-2011, 06:38 AM
I just Wiki'd VAT. That is a heavy sales tax. In France it accounts for 45% of state revenues? Wow.

Flavilandile
03-31-2011, 06:48 AM
I just Wiki'd VAT. That is a heavy sales tax. In France it accounts for 45% of state revenues? Wow.

It depends for what... In France it varies between 5.5% and 33% depending if you're buying books ( 5.5% ) or alcohol ( 33% )... and if you're buying tobacco or petrol for your car, it goes higher than 33%.
( allegedly 85% of the liter of petrol price is taxes, and tobacco is somewhere around 50% )

anyway, it doesn't change the fact that Turbine should have warned us that this was going to happen.

quijenoth
03-31-2011, 07:21 AM
Under UK law the purchase of turbine points to use as currency within the game would be treated the same way as purchasing credit within that country.

If you purchased a $10.00 voucher with UK money you would pay no VAT on that voucher.
however if you then spent that voucher you would be liable to VAT on that transaction.

So in other words Turbine should only charge VAT on VIP subscriptions (which is VATable as it is a service) and on the in-game transactions when using Turbine points within the DDO Store.

The problem with this is that there is no defining currency conversion for turbine points and thus would probably result in VAT being charged at the value of the currency on the open market (which is likely to be nil).

This information comes directly from the HMRC VAT Helpline.

Smitey
03-31-2011, 07:36 AM
Under UK law the purchase of turbine points to use as currency within the game would be treated the same way as purchasing credit within that country.


The issue here is that it is not in-game currency such as other MMOs have - it is not platinum that can be sold/exchanged and has a 'value' it is invariably an item which is bound and has no intrinsic value for onwards barter/purchase of other goods.

NinjaNeed
03-31-2011, 07:49 AM
Here is an idea for anyone who is being forced to pay these stupid price increases due to some "blag" about tax, use the 10 pound or so extra you need to pay to fly to a none EU country (Norway for example) and buy the points for 50 USD again.

Bonus of this is that you get the points for same price as the Americans, you get a trip to a country you may have never been to before (and yes, you can buy return flights for 10 pounds or less!) and you get to buy some duty free AND say sod Turbine for ripping you off!!!

Hendrik
03-31-2011, 07:51 AM
Looks like following the Law's of the EU are going to cause Turbine nothing but problems.

Problems get to costly for Turbine, time to cut the losses and not provide service to those problem areas.

:(

Necromisiek
03-31-2011, 07:53 AM
Here is an idea for anyone who is being forced to pay these stupid price increases due to some "blag" about tax, use the 10 pound or so extra you need to pay to fly to a none EU country (Norway for example) and buy the points for 50 USD again.
I've never thought that I will cross russian border to buy TP. :-D

Looks like following the Law's of the EU are going to cause Turbine nothing but problems.

Problems get to costly for Turbine, time to cut the losses and not provide service to those problem areas.
:(
Few months ago Europe hasn't been officially supported and there was no problem. Frankly, I don't need all these french/german translations, and I will gladly give them up in exchange for reasonable prices.

Missing_Minds
03-31-2011, 08:02 AM
Few months ago Europe hasn't been officially supported and there was no problem. Frankly, I don't need all these french/german translations, and I will gladly give them up in exchange for reasonable prices.

That won't change taxes as required by per country laws. You want the old prices, get your country to revoke the VAT tax. Good luck with that. I don't know about other countries, but in the US there is a saying. The only guaranteed things are death and taxes.

Spangled
03-31-2011, 08:09 AM
There are 30 odd countries in Europe, each with indivial VAT rules and laws applicable for something like buying Turbine Points.

I do not for a second believe Turbine adheres to each country's rules and regulations, and until you can prove that you do you should not charge VAT.

See the following EU rules for overseas electronic service providers charging VAT:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/consumers/protection_of_consumers/l31044_en.htm

It is somewhat ridiculous in my opinion, but the Brussels bloodsuckers need someone to pay their expenses.

Btw:

(Q) Why does the EU parliament not sit on Wednesdays?

(A) Because it interferes with both weekends.

Dandonk
03-31-2011, 08:11 AM
That won't change taxes as required by per country laws. You want the old prices, get your country to revoke the VAT tax. Good luck with that. I don't know about other countries, but in the US there is a saying. The only guaranteed things are death and taxes.

This is true.

IF they do pay that VAT to the respective countries. Which, until they show VAT ID numbers on receipts, I have my doubts about.

And really: They should've come out at stated this, not passing it off as "improving" things for EU customers - until people found out what was happening.

NaturalHazard
03-31-2011, 08:14 AM
Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, even when I fart I get taxed for that :p

Didnt someone say only two things are certain in this life, gravity and taxes?

Spangled
03-31-2011, 08:15 AM
This I can believe. If players for different countries are seeing the same price (i.e. a player in Spain is seeing the same prices as a player in Germany and they have different VAT rates) then, if I had to venture a guess, I would suspect Turbine is applying a blended rate based on currency (i.e. it's easy to figure the UK since it's in pounds but the Euro could be multiple countries). If that is the case (and it is pure speculation) then they would be overcharging some and undercharging others.



My understanding is that you do not use a blended rate, but associate yourself with a single EU member state:


The simplest and most attractive option for non-EU businesses is to make use of the Directive's simplified scheme for such businesses. This allows them to identify themselves for EU tax purposes in a single European Member State, taking advantage of streamlined compliance and on-line reporting procedures.

If Turbine associated itself with the UK, then VAT should be 20%. It appears they are charging more than that, which seems strange. (They could also chose another member state with a lower VAT rate, but given that it is a US company, I thought the UK would have been the obvious choice.)

Aurora1979
03-31-2011, 08:19 AM
I really dont have alot of knowledge about tax beyond what i need in everyday life. However, somethings struck me...

turbine are changing the prices to cover the fact that they have to pay X amount each year/ term in tax.

IF thats the case, then as much as i think taxing computer games is mental, thats the law of the country and must be followed.... But... shouldnt turbine have been paying these taxes since the first euro player started playing (paying) on the US servers. Before DDO EU was shut down.

If so... is Turbine now going to be liable for paying the back taxes same as any small business would be required to do if it was operating for a period without paying?

Because, if they do have to pay the back taxes then I think we are all going to see another price increase soon.

agent00skid
03-31-2011, 08:24 AM
"Non-EU businesses are able to register with a tax authority in a Member State of their choosing. They are required to charge VAT to non-business customers in the EU according to the standard tax rate in the Member State where the customer lives.

Every three months, they pay the tax they have collected to the administration where they have registered, together with a return in electronic form detailing total sales for each EU Member State. On the basis of this information, the Member State of registration re-allocates tax revenue to the country of the consumer."

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/consumers/protection_of_consumers/l31044_en.htm



Seems like the rate they should charge, is the one where the customer is living.

pal_sch
03-31-2011, 08:25 AM
My understanding is that you do not use a blended rate, associate yourself with a single EU member state...While they are registered in just one country, I believe they still need to apply the rates of each nation they sell in.

This looks relevant; (http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/vat_on_services/index_en.htm#supply_services)
Electronically supplied services, provided by suppliers established in a third country to non-taxable persons (B2C) established in the EU, must be taxed at the place where the customer resides or has a permanent address [Article 58 of the VAT Directive]
Example 41: If a private person residing in Sweden makes use of a Japanese on-line library, Swedish VAT will have to be paid on the amount the Japanese company charges.The company only seems to have to register for reporting in one member state, but they still have to pay VAT to each individual nation at that individual rate.

Missing_Minds
03-31-2011, 08:28 AM
And really: They should've come out at stated this, not passing it off as "improving" things for EU customers - until people found out what was happening.

Now that is your perception. The improving things is adding French and German to the game. (I'm not touching how successful or not that has been.)

People are going to take any price increase and blame a company instead of the source of the actual tax cause increase. It isn't as if Turbine or any other company is actually making profit on that. Heck, they are probably losing because now they have to hire more people to make certain the books are correct.

You could put things right in front of people and they'll miss it. How many times have people miss things over and over and over even though it was right there with a bold link on the splash screen?
It seems almost universal that people don't really care about something until it bites them somewhere personal.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the price increase is wanted/good idea, and it would be very very annoying. But the only thing you can do about it, is to complain to your own government.

quijenoth
03-31-2011, 08:35 AM
The issue here is that it is not in-game currency such as other MMOs have - it is not platinum that can be sold/exchanged and has a 'value' it is invariably an item which is bound and has no intrinsic value for onwards barter/purchase of other goods.

doesnt have to be -

if you subscribe, you pay cash to have access to the service (which is VATable)
if you purchase, TPs you pay cash to purchase pieces of that service (I.E. the ability to play the game with added features) which aren't themselves VATable)

The only loophole i can see from a tax mans side is that when you purchase TPs you become Premium which grants you a 45 days customer service rights. http://www.ddo.com/vip

Zerkul
03-31-2011, 08:42 AM
Well anyway i'd like to see this VAT number each time we do purchases.

Necromisiek
03-31-2011, 09:42 AM
That won't change taxes as required by per country laws.
Well, one week ago they didn't care about those laws. :-D

P.S. I've just checked - they still don't if my country is concerned. Propably they don't know it is EU member - God bless them for their ignorance.

Vordax
03-31-2011, 09:49 AM
wrong.
when your 8 years child will be 16 you will give him the same amount of money ;-)

Wrong again! When my 8 year old is 16, inflation will have happened, and I will end up giving her more money! :D

Vordax

Missing_Minds
03-31-2011, 09:55 AM
Well, one week ago they didn't care about those laws. :-D


That is how a consumer would see things. We have no idea of the background stuff that has been going on.

Hokiewa
03-31-2011, 10:10 AM
Well, one week ago they didn't care about those laws. :-D

P.S. I've just checked - they still don't if my country is concerned. Propably they don't know it is EU member - God bless them for their ignorance.

I would speculate that this isn't specifically an action taken by Turbine, but is likely Warner Bros.'s acquisition of Turbine. It wasn't going to be an instant switch, but rather a lengthy process of review by WB attorneys and accountants.

That being said, it's not unprecedented. SOE started charging VAT on subs in 2005, and IMDb in 2003 to name just a few.

TPs are a different issue, at least on the surface.

Ardalis
03-31-2011, 10:10 AM
Interesting that it seems Turbine points would be either classed as a voucher or token under applicable Irish tax law and therefore not subject to VAT, if on the other Hand turbine points are a Virtual Currency then they are also not subject to VAT in Ireland according to Revenue commissioners Helpline.

Even if they are subject to VAT through some other obscure EU law then Turbine must charge VAT at the rate applicable to the country the customer resides in, Irelands case is 21.5%. A blanket 24-25% price increase and calling it VAT is nothing more than a Money grab on turbines side.

Anyway I have submitted a complaint to the Revenue Commissioners here in Ireland to investigate this behaviour and strongly suggest any other EU players submit complaints to there respective government bodies.

Signed
A very disappointed player.

Hendrik
03-31-2011, 10:24 AM
Interesting that it seems Turbine points would be either classed as a voucher or token under applicable Irish tax law and therefore not subject to VAT, if on the other Hand turbine points are a Virtual Currency then they are also not subject to VAT in Ireland according to Revenue commissioners Helpline.

Even if they are subject to VAT through some other obscure EU law then Turbine must charge VAT at the rate applicable to the country the customer resides in, Irelands case is 21.5%. A blanket 24-25% price increase and calling it VAT is nothing more than a Money grab on turbines side.

Anyway I have submitted a complaint to the Revenue Commissioners here in Ireland to investigate this behaviour and strongly suggest any other EU players submit complaints to there respective government bodies.

Signed
A very disappointed player.

I'm sure the Irish government will get right on that and the extra 3% VAT tax that might be applied/collected, they don't want that money.

:cool:

Redtalktree
03-31-2011, 10:45 AM
What really P*sses me off was it came without warning. Really leaves a bad aftertaste. If they say that they was going to increase the price due VAT, and give me a week notice I would be be o.k about it, not happy mind you but I can live with it.

SiliconShadow
03-31-2011, 10:48 AM
This CANNOT be a VAT increase alone, we are getting 42% to 54% increase on point packages in the UK I would love a real explination on the price increase.

Zendikar
03-31-2011, 10:49 AM
While I do feel for the EU players in this matter I think that Turbine definatly should include a Vat number on the recipt but otherwise don't see ANYTHING wrong here by their doin except maybe not giving fair warning..the biggest issue here is the ridiculous Vat laws in the first place..

Socialism helps nobody but the government implementing it.. ME!

Rizzia
03-31-2011, 11:07 AM
This CANNOT be a VAT increase alone, we are getting 42% to 54% increase on point packages in the UK I would love a real explination on the price increase.

Possibly an oversight, (Just a theory but: )
Could they been doing $ to euro, then charging VAT.
Then changing that euro total to £ and adding VAT again?

If so..and on purpose, well, if it hits the subs, bye bye DDO.

Necromisiek
03-31-2011, 11:30 AM
I only wonder one thing - somebody wrote that the prices raised for Brits using mobile payments. AFAIK SMS have been always VAT charged - so how VAT introduction could change pay by mobile prices?

QuarterMasterM
03-31-2011, 11:50 AM
As part of the roll out of our new global service we have upgraded our billing system and localized the DDO Store to provide better service to players across Europe. As a result we are now required to provide VAT to European governments and we apologize for not providing you with advance notice of this change. We want to assure players that the increase in price of points purchased with Euros and GPB reflects the VAT required and nothing more. Going forward we will continue to make improvements to our global service and your feedback is vital to this process. Thank your for your patience and understanding.