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erikbozelie
03-28-2011, 11:26 AM
Monks get full strength on off hand proc attacks,

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/7628/weaponsi.jpg

i was wondering when monk off hand proc strength would catch the critical damage from khopeshes.

as it looks, it depends more on dice then strength(did an total calc, but the sheet looks like hell).
however the sweet spot is somewhere around 2d6 20 strength

what did i compare:
*4 hits unarmed per sequence
at every weapon(except great axe) has 100% off hand proc(i did 60/80/100 in the entire sheet).
used the base weapon only, no magical effects, just an regular kama, unarmed strike and khopesh.

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before people start nagging.

yes i know an monk does not has 100% off hand proc, or that its kindof unfair for an level 20 monk unarmed strike to compared to an fighter with non magical khopeshes. neither do i claim that an monk can achieve 60 strength while an fighter or barb can.

while there are allot of effects based on crits, seeker, elemental bursts, holy bursts etc i was only wondering about the off hand proc couping the crit damage.

I in no way want to say khopeshes are bellow unarmed strikes. there are allot of better khopeshes out there then handwraps as it is. lit2 GS, metaline etc. on the other side monks do have tod rings to add effects to unarmed strikes.

just wanted to share,
zxkuqyb from ghallanda

Kinerd
03-28-2011, 05:12 PM
It's important to use the proper off hand process chance, because it qualitatively changes some of your results.

If we look at khopesh and 2d6 unarmed, the khopesh should be getting 15 * (1d8 + S) + 4 * 3 * (1d8 + S) main hand and 0.5 * S offhand, for a total of 48.6 * 1d8 + 37.8 * S. The unarmed should be getting 17 * (2d6 + S) + 2 * 2 * (2d6 + S) for both hands, for a total of 37.8 * 2d6 + 37.8 * S. This means that the slopes are the same instead of the unarmed having a higher slope, as indicated in your graph.

I'm also a little confused by what your numbers mean. The 2d6 unarmed (for instance) seems to be about 62. Using 100% off hand chance, we have 42 * (2d6 + S) for damage over 20 swings, and a 5 Strength bonus makes that 504, or 25.2 on an average swing, and I can't think of any way to make that 62. Can you elaborate on that process a little?

Also, did you account for the attack speed difference? Pure fighters would be higher with Haste Boosts compared to unarmed until the Boosts ran out.

erikbozelie
03-28-2011, 07:12 PM
It's important to use the proper off hand process chance, because it qualitatively changes some of your results.

If we look at khopesh and 2d6 unarmed, the khopesh should be getting 15 * (1d8 + S) + 4 * 3 * (1d8 + S) main hand and 0.5 * S offhand, for a total of 48.6 * 1d8 + 37.8 * S. The unarmed should be getting 17 * (2d6 + S) + 2 * 2 * (2d6 + S) for both hands, for a total of 37.8 * 2d6 + 37.8 * S. This means that the slopes are the same instead of the unarmed having a higher slope, as indicated in your graph.

I'm also a little confused by what your numbers mean. The 2d6 unarmed (for instance) seems to be about 62. Using 100% off hand chance, we have 42 * (2d6 + S) for damage over 20 swings, and a 5 Strength bonus makes that 504, or 25.2 on an average swing, and I can't think of any way to make that 62. Can you elaborate on that process a little?

Also, did you account for the attack speed difference? Pure fighters would be higher with Haste Boosts compared to unarmed until the Boosts ran out.
no i didnt counted speed boosts exept for haste.
i added power attack to both of them. its basicly damage per second if swinging for 60 sec hasted.
with different strength ratings.. with an clean and non magical weapon.

so clean khopesh , and unarmed strikes counting 100% off hand proc, as if tempest 2.

my goal was not to find which weapon was better, just to know where the strength from off hand proc would coup the crit damage.

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2d6 + 5 str + 5 power attack = 17 average each hit.
now for every 100 swings unarmed does 110 worth of damage.(10% doubles)
against
1d8 +5str +5power attack and off hand 1d8 + 2 + 5 power attack = (14,5 + 11,5) / 2 = 13 average.(i know it should stack this way but lets keep it simple and split it, its 100% off hand proc).
for every 100 khopesh swings the khopesh does 140 worth of damage ( 20% is trippled).

17 * 1,1 = 18,7(hand to hand)
13* 1,4 = 16,9(khopesh)

also hand to hand is slighter faster.

hand to hand wins when an level 12 ranger is wielding an non magical khopesh. versus an 8 monk 12 ranger(or X monk levels with 2d6 unarmed, not sure which level that is).

khopesh certainly wins in better armory, auto crit situations, looks, style, class features, with boosts and crit enhancements. but if i wanted to go through all of them this post would take forever.

(might do an overhail of it all with dps calc if i gotten more time. school is first ^,^)

edit: the numbers of my graph means damage per second, as hits per min from here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144)

wax_on_wax_off
03-29-2011, 01:13 AM
It's important to use the proper off hand process chance, because it qualitatively changes some of your results.

If we look at khopesh and 2d6 unarmed, the khopesh should be getting 15 * (1d8 + S) + 4 * 3 * (1d8 + S) main hand and 0.5 * S offhand, for a total of 48.6 * 1d8 + 37.8 * S. The unarmed should be getting 17 * (2d6 + S) + 2 * 2 * (2d6 + S) for both hands, for a total of 37.8 * 2d6 + 37.8 * S. This means that the slopes are the same instead of the unarmed having a higher slope, as indicated in your graph.

I'm also a little confused by what your numbers mean. The 2d6 unarmed (for instance) seems to be about 62. Using 100% off hand chance, we have 42 * (2d6 + S) for damage over 20 swings, and a 5 Strength bonus makes that 504, or 25.2 on an average swing, and I can't think of any way to make that 62. Can you elaborate on that process a little?

Also, did you account for the attack speed difference? Pure fighters would be higher with Haste Boosts compared to unarmed until the Boosts ran out.

What is the cooldown on haste boost? Presumably, over a 10 minute fight, a half-orc kensai III pure fighter will pop off all 10 haste boosts for 200 seconds of haste boost (133.3 attacks/minute) and for the other 400 seconds will be at 102.2 attacks/minute. (133.3/60*200+102.2/60*400)/10=112.57 which gives a higher attack speed than handwraps (111.3)... which is interesting for me. 10% doublestrike for both fighting styles isn't counted (but shouldn't change the outcome). I think 10 minutes is a good ball park time frame over which DPS can be measured as there aren't many fights that are considerably longer than this.

This is why I like the idea of a half-orc 12 ranger, 7 rogue, 1 monk (or 6 ranger, 13 rogue, 1 monk). 100% offhand proc, 10x25% haste boosts/day, fastest number of hits/second, good sneak attack, unarmed (assuming that even though the shield bonus from tempest doesn't work with unarmed that the offhand proc rate still applies which I'm fairly certain on but haven't personally tested).

That leaves handwraps on a pure monk vs khopesh on a pure kensai relying on 100% offhand strength mod ... never, ever going to add up.

erikbozelie
03-29-2011, 03:20 AM
about the 6ranger, 1 monk, 13 roque split.

it all depends allot on strength.
if you have low strength khopeshes are the better one. because of the better crit(strength * 1,5).
if you have high strength unarmed is better because the additional damage from strength(strength * 2).

this however, is assuming they're to hit is the same, which is not.

at this moment i am at school so cant do that much math on it, but my guess / assumption is that the additional hits per minute from unarmed gives more damage off sneak attack then the additional damage from crits(sneak attack is not multiplied).

111,3 hits per min unarmed + 100% = 222,6 hits per min
vs
102,1 hits per min khopesh + 100% = 204,2 hits per min

around18 hits more every min = about ((2d6 monk, 7d6 SA)9 * 18 = )162d6 more.
or (162 * 3.5) / 60 = 9,45 damage per second more? o0 in the course of every minute.

edit* math above asumes off hand proc is 100%, in which many monks is not. and still while only wielding blanc weapons
and without 18 counting crits, strength, power attack etc. those additional attacks count up.

Kinerd
03-29-2011, 03:34 PM
What is the cooldown on haste boost? Presumably, over a 10 minute fight, a half-orc kensai III pure fighter will pop off all 10 haste boosts for 200 seconds of haste boost (133.3 attacks/minute) and for the other 400 seconds will be at 102.2 attacks/minute. (133.3/60*200+102.2/60*400)/10=112.57 which gives a higher attack speed than handwraps (111.3)... which is interesting for me. 10% doublestrike for both fighting styles isn't counted (but shouldn't change the outcome). I think 10 minutes is a good ball park time frame over which DPS can be measured as there aren't many fights that are considerably longer than this.

This is why I like the idea of a half-orc 12 ranger, 7 rogue, 1 monk (or 6 ranger, 13 rogue, 1 monk). 100% offhand proc, 10x25% haste boosts/day, fastest number of hits/second, good sneak attack, unarmed (assuming that even though the shield bonus from tempest doesn't work with unarmed that the offhand proc rate still applies which I'm fairly certain on but haven't personally tested).

That leaves handwraps on a pure monk vs khopesh on a pure kensai relying on 100% offhand strength mod ... never, ever going to add up.The cooldown is 30 seconds, but there's also an activation delay of 1.2 seconds (or 0.6 seconds with the Quickdraw feat), so for each cooldown period of 30 seconds you would have:

19.4 * boosted speed + 10 * unboosted speed

The last I heard, Tempest I and II work with unarmed but not Tempest III. When my exploiter hits 14 I can see for sure, though.

erikbozelie
03-29-2011, 03:37 PM
The cooldown is 30 seconds, but there's also an activation delay of 1.2 seconds (or 0.6 seconds with the Quickdraw feat), so for each cooldown period of 30 seconds you would have:

19.4 * boosted speed + 10 * unboosted speed

The last I heard, Tempest I and II work with unarmed but not Tempest III. When my exploiter hits 14 I can see for sure, though.

he means that the ac bonus from tempest aint aplies while unarmed. need to wield 2 weapons.