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View Full Version : Finesse - a useful tweak



Pehtis
03-28-2011, 09:08 AM
Finesse as it stands at the moment is lacking that certain something. To quickly recap the feat as it stands, attack roles to-hit is based on your Dexterity instead of Strength when using specific finesse weapons (e.g Rapier, Dagger).

What I'd like to see is either of the following added as a complement to what is there now. What I propose is as follows:

1. Wielding One finessable weapon (must not hold shield)
Having trained in the graceful stance of the masters (think a fencing master type) with dexterity your 'critical hits' are VERY precise resulting in an increase to the critical modifier. I'm thinking 'tripling' the modifier to recognize the fact you are fighting with only the one hand. Therefore the rapier with a x2 modifier will now do x6 to targets that can be critically hit. I'm also thinking adding a seeker effect to criticals based on weapon value. Therefore a +2 Dagger will also receive +2 seeker effect when confirming criticals. Maybe even make it a stackable seeker effect if it isn't too much of a stretch.

2. New Feat called "Improved Finesse" (PrE requisite - Improved Two Weapon Fighting) for dual wield of light weapons only.
Having trained extensively with finessable light weapons in both hands they truly sing. Your strength modifier is totally ignored for to-hit & damage purposes. When dual wielding the crit modifier is increased by +1 over default base. Therefore a dagger/light mace with a x2 modifier will now do x3. Also there will be no seeker effect (thats exclusive to one weapon handlers).

With the above suggestions you got a character uses their dex to hit things but now be able to be more competitive with damage, when compared to sone regular strength builds. Whilst I dont think it necessarily too uber (well double daggers might be) at least it could provide some much needed flavor to non strength toons.

Think of it as pursuasive subtletry over brawn :)

P

*Edit: Improved Finesse. I agree that having a x6 crit for light daggers is over the top (admittedly this 2nd suggestion was more an afterthought). Instead giving +1 increase to crit modifier would make it worthwhile feat. Also addressed the Strength issue thus reducing the possible exploitation of this feat by strength builds.

RudyMcghee
03-28-2011, 09:22 AM
While this would be a nice boost for dex builds, they wouldn't be the main ones to use it. There would be some Frenzied Berserker wielding dual rapiers with a massive strength getting x6+ criticals. Since you have to have the dex required for twf feats, theyll have the requirements for finesses also met.

RJBsComputer
03-28-2011, 08:21 PM
Changing the crit multiplier to x6 is way to over powering. However, adding 5% to the crit range for taking IMPROVE FINESS seems more in line with the idea you are trying to present Or as a second thought, IMPROVE FINESS could add your Dex mod to crit damage before multipliers are done.

parowan
03-28-2011, 08:25 PM
What about making finesse use dex mod for damage in addition to to-hit? That would keep it in the dex-build niche while making it more useful. Pretty simple change.

shores11
03-28-2011, 08:31 PM
Finesse as it stands at the moment is lacking that certain something. To quickly recap the feat as it stands, attack roles to-hit is based on your Dexterity instead of Strength when using specific finesse weapons (e.g Rapier, Dagger).

What I'd like to see is either of the following added as a complement to what is there now. What I propose is as follows:

1. Wielding One finessable weapon (must not hold shield)
Having trained in the graceful stance of the masters (think a fencing master type) with dexterity your 'critical hits' are VERY precise resulting in an increase to the critical modifier. I'm thinking 'tripling' the modifier to recognize the fact you are fighting with only the one hand. Therefore the rapier with a x2 modifier will now do x6 to targets that can be critically hit. I'm also thinking adding a seeker effect to criticals based on weapon value. Therefore a +2 Dagger will also receive +2 seeker effect when confirming criticals. Maybe even make it a stackable seeker effect if it isn't too much of a stretch.

2. New Feat called "Improved Finesse" (PrE requisite - Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Having trained extensively with finessable light weapons in both hands they truly sing. When dual wielding the crit modifier is also triple the default base. Therefore a dagger/light mace with a x2 modifier will now do x6. However there will be no seeker effect.

With the above suggestions you got a character uses their dex to hit things but now be able to be more competitive with damage, when compared to sone regular strength builds. Whilst I dont think it necessarily too uber (well double daggers might be) at least it could provide some much needed flavor to non strength toons.

Think of it as pursuasive subtletry over brawn :)

P

/not signed

This is just a way over the top suggestion. The player base already majorly dominants the NPC base. We need more and more suggestions for quests, quest series and raids not more and more uber loot. Really folks step up and realize that good questing and story line is what makes the game what it is.

I do not play to watch someone stand in the marketplace and show off a weapon or run through a dungeon where a monster falls dead just because of your uber aura.

testing1234
03-28-2011, 08:39 PM
Finesse as it stands at the moment is lacking that certain something. To quickly recap the feat as it stands, attack roles to-hit is based on your Dexterity instead of Strength when using specific finesse weapons (e.g Rapier, Dagger).

What I'd like to see is either of the following added as a complement to what is there now. What I propose is as follows:

1. Wielding One finessable weapon (must not hold shield)
Having trained in the graceful stance of the masters (think a fencing master type) with dexterity your 'critical hits' are VERY precise resulting in an increase to the critical modifier. I'm thinking 'tripling' the modifier to recognize the fact you are fighting with only the one hand. Therefore the rapier with a x2 modifier will now do x6 to targets that can be critically hit. I'm also thinking adding a seeker effect to criticals based on weapon value. Therefore a +2 Dagger will also receive +2 seeker effect when confirming criticals. Maybe even make it a stackable seeker effect if it isn't too much of a stretch.

2. New Feat called "Improved Finesse" (PrE requisite - Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Having trained extensively with finessable light weapons in both hands they truly sing. When dual wielding the crit modifier is also triple the default base. Therefore a dagger/light mace with a x2 modifier will now do x6. However there will be no seeker effect.

With the above suggestions you got a character uses their dex to hit things but now be able to be more competitive with damage, when compared to sone regular strength builds. Whilst I dont think it necessarily too uber (well double daggers might be) at least it could provide some much needed flavor to non strength toons.

Think of it as pursuasive subtletry over brawn :)

P

all your suggestions favor using them on a strength build.
you obviously do not understand how powerful the effect of a 6x weapon is, raising a 2x weapon to 3x makes it the most powrful feat in the game raising to 6x is just ... well its the khopesh on crack heroin and pirate grog all at once.
what you need is someting like
feat improved finesse req 21dex : +4dex gives +1extra damage
that would not be abused by strength builds anyting that raises the critical mutliplier favor str by its very nature.

donfilibuster
03-28-2011, 08:49 PM
Or fix AC so dex builds have that incentive again over str builds.

Havenred
03-28-2011, 08:50 PM
What about making finesse use dex mod for damage in addition to to-hit? That would keep it in the dex-build niche while making it more useful. Pretty simple change.

A world of twf with high ac, super reflex with evasion weilding rapiers

parowan
03-28-2011, 08:55 PM
A world of twf with high ac, super reflex with evasion weilding rapiers

A dex build still wouldn't be tops in DPS, since no one can get dex as high as you can get str. But at least it would make dex builds more viable.

ssgcmwatson
03-28-2011, 11:29 PM
What about making finesse use dex mod for damage in addition to to-hit? That would keep it in the dex-build niche while making it more useful. Pretty simple change.

Agreed - strength dmg mod reflects the brute power behind the attack, a dex dmg mod reflects precisely placing your blows to do optimal damage.

Dandonk
03-28-2011, 11:39 PM
What about making finesse use dex mod for damage in addition to to-hit? That would keep it in the dex-build niche while making it more useful. Pretty simple change.

/notsigned

When you're using finesse, you're sacrificing some damage for better reflex save (usually these builds have evasion, to make even more use of this) and better AC. With your suggestion, there is no down side at all.

Now, I agree that finesse lacks something at the moment. Fixing AC so it matters at high levels would be good - and would help make finesse more viable again.
If finesse really does need a damage boost, I think the suggestion that someone made of adding a portion of dex to crit damage would be decent - but someone better run the numbers first, and see where it takes us.

Alabore
03-28-2011, 11:44 PM
Speaking of crit multipliers: with U9 tweak to auto crits, expanded crits would not be as overpowered as they could be before, with auto-crit situations.

We could ask for extra crit range modifiers - and maybe stacking keen + imp crit feats.

mournbladereigns
03-29-2011, 01:21 AM
A world of twf with high ac, super reflex with evasion weilding rapiers


/notsigned

When you're using finesse, you're sacrificing some damage for better reflex save (usually these builds have evasion, to make even more use of this) and better AC. With your suggestion, there is no down side at all.

Now, I agree that finesse lacks something at the moment. Fixing AC so it matters at high levels would be good - and would help make finesse more viable again.
If finesse really does need a damage boost, I think the suggestion that someone made of adding a portion of dex to crit damage would be decent - but someone better run the numbers first, and see where it takes us.

I like the idea of Dex based finesse fighters being able to use Dex for Damage bonuse as well, but it would need an additional limitation to balance it beyond the light weapon/rapier limit. You can add your dex mod to light weap/rapier damage, up to your BAB modifier, if it is higher. ( so 20 max dex mod, = 50 Dex!)

Letrii
03-29-2011, 01:41 AM
By dnd math, a tripling of a double is actually x4.

Letrii
03-29-2011, 01:47 AM
Really need to pay attention what post I quote.

I want my Shadow Blade feat.

TheHolyDarkness
03-29-2011, 07:57 AM
/signed on the suggestion that something needs to be done to make finesse more viable. Some manner where it assists ever so slightly to make up for the damage gap. Not a new feat, but likely changes to the finesse feat itself. Afterall, it is often compared to Khorpesh in the feat slots its takes, so unless an "Improved Finesse" was really powerful, it wouldn't help in incentivizing rogues to reconsider the dex based path.

I'm leaning in support of the idea that perhaps, every 4 dex = +1 damage or what have you. Or that at the very least your dex mod influences your weapon criticals in some manner.

Perhaps every 4 dex = +1 Seeker Damage at the very least? These sound like fair suggestions to me.

Let us recall the root of the issue. If methods to increase dex were as readily available as they were for strength, finesse as it currently stands would have no challenges to its viability. Options such as double madstone, the rage spell, bladesworn, titan's grip, and/or ram's strength erodes the feat's plausibility for min/max purposes (especially considering the issues with AC). The theory is that a dex based class will have a higher to-hit if he embraces fineasable weapons, given his enhancement lines. The reality is that he won't, as there are no equitable psionic/profane/morale/size type bonuses for dex.

Therefore even among those who plan on rapiers, we witness many going str based on their halfling rogues and whatnot since its granting greater damage while retaining more or less the same to-hit potential.

Hence, Weapon Finesse is a viable candidate for modification. There's likely an optimal solution that the official number crunchers at Turbine should draft proposals on. I support the notion of spending company resources looking into a balance tweak in favor of finesse.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

Alavatar
03-29-2011, 11:33 AM
What about making finesse use dex mod for damage in addition to to-hit? That would keep it in the dex-build niche while making it more useful. Pretty simple change.

Only if they also make it so Finesse uses STR for an AC mod. :p

Pehtis
03-31-2011, 04:02 AM
Ok I totally agree with the feedback that giving Improved Finesse feat a x6 crit for finessble light weapons (like daggers) is over the top. Admittedly the whole Improved Finesse feat workings was more an afterthought versus the concept idea of the dual wielding of finessable light for a bit more flavor.

However why would anyone take Improved Finesse if it didnt give you anything that might be considered useful by dex builds. I have proposed instead in the feat giving +1 increase to crit modifier which might make it a tad more worthwhile without making it too overpowering. Further to remove a possible exploit of this feat, being by Strength builds taking advantage of x3 crit modifiers, I have suggested that Strength is totally ignored. Therefore the builder needs to choose wisely before taking this feat.


Having said all of the above, I would prioritise my first suggestion regarding Wielding One finessable weapon over any further consideration of my second suggestion of a possible brand new feat.

Just food for thought.

P