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View Full Version : Please fix the discrepancy in arcane prestige balance.



Seliana
03-24-2011, 07:31 AM
I would like to bring to light that there is a discrepancy in arcane prestige line balancing for the spell pass of Update 9. It seems clear that the line of thinking by development is that the primary means of conserving SP while performing dps in epics will be via SLA based attacks, mixing in a variety of regular spells to augment this damage output when desired.

The Elemental Savant gets a line of SLA's that can deal upwards of 500-600dps single target which has been pointed out by other posters, this line of course with maxed out critical chance, gear, maximize, and empower. This line of SLA's is in addition to other prestige class features such as enhanced caster level, bypassing enemy elemental resistance, adding to their own elemental resistance, -75% damage vulnerability debuffs, knockdown immunity or monk leap, and a tier 3 special ability such as ice prison or heat death. This all comes at a cost of -caster level to their opposing school.

The Archmage also gets a line of SLA's that can deal substantial force and air based damage in the form of Cyclonic blast, Chain Missiles, Magic Missiles and so on. Again with critical chance, gear, maximize, and empower. This is also in addition to their other class features such as an increased +2 spell dc, and a force based line of blast attacks. This comes at a cost of some SP loss, to balance it out they get five tiers of free SP to counteract this issue.

Pale Masters don't have an SLA line however in addition to their class features. They get a few immunities which warforged already have as a player race along with: +20 hp, +4 con, +2 int, +1 necro dc, some minor self healing, horribly unbalanced summons at extremely high AP prices which get unused, and a necro based line of blast attacks that feature very low damage with frequent immunity thanks to deathward. This also comes at a cost of losing all forms of regeneration, vampirism, divine healing, reconstruct healing, spell absorption equipment (death aura drains charges), and a cost of 100 SP permanently.

Now you might say "but pale masters will be able to wail the epic content if they manage to get their DC and spell penetration incredibly high and they spec entirely for it". While this may be true with that 30 second cooldown it also holds true for Archmage as well. Nothing is stopping the WF Archmages from gaining the same DC's a Pale Master can get as well in addition to better healing with less penalties applied. Pale Masters are also stuck spending more SP per point of self healing then any arcane or divine based heal by a ratio of 2 to 1 for less then half the total HP healed per cast, this makes the PM self-healing benefit as a class feature lack in comparison.

For reference for those reading who don't play PM's the maximized empowered and geared self heal is about 160 hp. The death aura is a every 3 seconds tick for about 26 hp and lasts about 2.5 minutes with extend, maximize, and empower which is nice for regeneration between fights but poor while being hit in epics. PM's also cant augment this incoming healing in any way via scrolls or silver flame potions like other casters are able to as well because they are immune to both.

The point of all of this is if the intention is for SLA's to be the primary form of arcane dps, and arcane dps is intended to be the primary function of a arcane in epics now, why does the Archmage and Elemental Savant get to spec for it and not Pale Master?

I would like to see a level 2 and 3 Necro based damage spell added to the three tier's of Pale Master along with Chill Touch as the base starting spell at level 6 for a few SP at each tier. This would be an SLA line that allows maximize, empower and so on to have comparable and sustainable dps to the other arcane prestige lines available.

Chai
03-24-2011, 07:42 AM
The sorc PREs havent even been released yet and we are calling for a rebalance...

/checks for a delorian parked in the lot with flaming tire tracks behind it.

Yes, Id like to file a QuantumComplaint® about class balance. Roads? Where we're going we dont need roads.

Ill reserve full judgement for when this has been in play a bit.

Anneliese
03-24-2011, 07:45 AM
For reference for those reading who don't play PM's the maximized empowered and geared self heal is about 160 hp. The death aura is a every 3 seconds tick for about 26 hp and lasts about 2.5 minutes with extend, maximize, and empower which is nice for regeneration between fights but poor while being hit in epics. PM's also cant augment this incoming healing in any way via scrolls or silver flame potions like other casters are able to as well because they are immune to both.

If you are a WF sorc, you get -2 Charisma (or -3 compared to human/helf, -4 compared to drow). If you are a not a WF sorc, you cannot heal yourself with spells as a sorc.

Wizard Palemasters can also drink yugoloth potions for +2int and stay at 100% fort - compared to archmages who cannot do that.

Drakos
03-24-2011, 07:51 AM
You have to remember that the "high use" of deathward you mention is being scaled down as well. Epic mobs. for the most part, will be loosing the epic death ward as part of the changes comming to Epic's in U9 as well. So the immunities to Necro damage will not be what it currently is.

I agree that we really need to see all these changes/additions in action befor we get to worked up about them. A little caution is warranted, but it isn't time to panic yet.

Seliana
03-24-2011, 08:04 AM
You have to remember that the "high use" of deathward you mention is being scaled down as well. Epic mobs. for the most part, will be loosing the epic death ward as part of the changes comming to Epic's in U9 as well. So the immunities to Necro damage will not be what it currently is.

I agree that we really need to see all these changes/additions in action befor we get to worked up about them. A little caution is warranted, but it isn't time to panic yet.

While the death ward bit is true the point remains that Necro blast type abilities are very low on base dps, given my frequent use I would estimate less then 50dps or so while using them. I'm not worked up or panicked, just seeing a lack of informational updates for pale masters. I would hate to be forced to wait until September or later for the dev's to take a second look at this in update 12 or 13. Ideally, I would just like to see all the arcane prestiges be somewhat balanced from the dev's perspective now before something gets missed and goes in live.

These balance changes tend to get made final for half of a year or more before being revisited by dev's. I want to bring attention to it early because of that so that it wouldn't be overlooked for update 9.

donfilibuster
03-24-2011, 08:43 AM
Fully specced in negative energy the necrotic touch/bolt/blast can do as much as the arcane bolt/blast force damage.
Naturally a lot of creatures are immune to it, whereas force damage is ubiquitous.

Last time i checked however, the archmage had to spend quite a few action points to take their force line and all the archmage toys needed.
Whereas the palemaster can ditch the summons and take another energy line in addition to the negative energy line, usually fire for firewall.

I can see where the sorcerer SLA is good damage, but what boosts the damage of the AM SLAs?
If it is the extra damage on helpless i expect that to apply to PM as well.
If it is the SP the PM still has the necrotics costing hp and not sp, which fairly saves a lot of sp compared with the extra sp the AM get.

As it is now the big dilemma with PM/AM is still to be wf or fleshy.

voodoogroves
03-24-2011, 08:50 AM
As it is now the big dilemma with PM/AM is still to be wf or fleshy.

Only for those hampered by a weak, fleshy brain.



What hasn't been seen yet with the spell rebalance is if it will apply to things like Negative Energy Burst, Necrotic Ray. Will those costs go down? Will Necrotic Ray be auto-enlarged?

Thematically, even though we've only seen a glimpse at some spells, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that all ray-types (scorching, frost lance ... and also disintegrate, necrotic ray, etc.) would be enlarged for free and have their costs reduced.

Cyr
03-24-2011, 09:01 AM
I think the odds are not bad that at least one new arcane necromancy spell that can be used to self heal will be included as part of the spell pass. There is lots of room in the upper spell levels for a big dps AoE DoT type effect based on negative energy.

I would also like to see the following added to the ToD Pale Master Ring...

Negative Energy Attunement - All effects that provide a healing amp bonus to you also apply a negative healing amp bonus to you in undead form.

TheDearLeader
03-24-2011, 09:09 AM
Anyone else here love using their spare Visor of the Flesh Render Guards to Death Ward the Lich? I do. :)

The Sorc PrEs have yet to be touched by player hands. At least let them get to Lammaland before busting out the walls of text?

And I'm pretty sure those fine folks doing the all-Pale-Master Shroud, all-Pale-Master-ToD, all-Pale-Master Basketweaving, all-Pale-Master... you get my point. Those people? They'd probably tell you that if you really have so many complaints, you're doing it wrong, because Pale Master is "zeh awesome uber n stuff". So, obviously the PrE is making some people happy.

Me? I'm just a Water Savant in training, surprised when people who don't have Yellow'ish Gold forums names are telling me just how my PrE will work out for me.

Chill.

Jaid314
03-24-2011, 12:37 PM
the dps on the necrotic SLAs is indeed rather low. i tend to crit for around 340-360 damage if the target doesn't make the save, for example.

that said, it's so absurdly cheap to get them, and so absurdly cheap to boost them, that all i can say is... you get what you pay for.

also, you have drastically understated the self-healing of a pale master. my aura heals more in the 30+ range, and my lesser aura heals usually in the 5-10 range, but i very regularly get ticks in the high teens on my lesser aura from crits, and i've seen ticks from my regular aura for 75+ points, and they both crit fairly regularly.

i do think a little bit of a boost to pale master SLAs makes sense. or rather, i think the pale master negative energy enhancements should go up to either 55% or even 60% (it's higher than the current max enhancement for elements, i see no reason it shouldn't remain that way next patch). i don't think it needs to be large though... the emphasis for pale master is in defense. you gain so much defense on a pale master, i don't think it would be fair to add all that much in offense as well.

(also, quite frankly, i've run epics where the cleric's aura was enough to keep everyone healed through the vast majority of it, and i can tell you now the pale master auras are much stronger than cleric auras. perhaps the OP simply needs to revise how he plays epics...)

Missing_Minds
03-24-2011, 12:41 PM
The ONLY thing I could see happening to the PM is a change in the bonus damage, crit chance, and crit damage it grants.

I mean all of the enhancements got broken up. I figure the PM at tier III should have 50% (like other casters), the max lore (crit chance), and max crit lore (crit damage) possible under the new enhancement system.

LeLoric
03-24-2011, 12:43 PM
I think you short palemasters on the immunities thing big here. Immunity to stun is big, all death effects not just level drain, horrid wilting immunity (this is big when fighting raiyum etc), Immunity to all stat damage to physical stats (str,con,dex).

I have no issue with what is happening to palemasters they will be just as strong and even stronger in epics. Having an instadeath rotation consisting of wail, finger, circle of death, symbol of death is pretty strong and cooldowns will really hardly be an issue.

I get much higher numbers on my heals.

Bodic
03-24-2011, 12:47 PM
you can always ask the cleric to Harm you mind cleric because a FvS will not have the room.

bbcjoke
04-24-2011, 06:53 PM
Immunity to all stat damage to physical stats (str,con,dex).
They don't have that. At least not for all kinds of attacks - ray of enfeeblement still hits them.

My 5 cents are: there are some things that should have been done already (instant death when PMs hit 0 hp), some necessary things that most likely won't be done now (skeleton knights AI fix after teleport, PMs not drowning when in undead form) and unnecessary things (PMs getting double+ damage from light spells - I could understant it for vampire shroud, seriously, why this when normal undeads don't take it? Just make them take double damage from FWs, make enemy clerics use turn undead) that will be done to balance the game because it's easier than improving the enemies AI against undead players.

stille_nacht
04-24-2011, 07:02 PM
From my scan, you focus waaay to much on damage, and simply discount PM benefits.

so:

Damage= meh on a wizard as of now, and compared to sorceror, most likely will still be pretty meh. Even if it wasnt, a pale master is by nature a CC wizard, all the benefits go there, and it should be judged as such.

Now lets look at DCs;
archmage has to focus on one school, and when he/she drinks the yugoloth pot, is put to 50% fort.
pale master gets all schools, with a slight boost to one depending on form (to the equivalent of the archmage's focused school), and when drinking a yugoloth pot, is put at 100% fort.

Now lets look at other benefits of a CC wizard from these two-
PM- more hp, hp based nukes, immunity to annoying pit fiend poison, random diseases (eardweller is highlighted)
AM- more sp (sp is less important, why? because i assume optimal conditions basically, and you really dont run out of sp often at high levels)

Survivability-
If an archmage wants to go self heal, he has to be a wf
If a pale master wants to go self heal, he can be a drow (meaning a guarenteed +1 higher dc)


Now you could go for damage, but why would you on an archmage? roll a sorc you faildamage castah! evocation archmage, next update, will be a niche build if anything. Cheap magic missile/gust of wind/chain missile/fire shield/ cyclonic blast aint going to cancel out all the damage focused PrEs of sorcs, not to mention their ridiculous sp pools. (an Evocation AM does not derive a larger sp pool because he/ she is taking all 5 tiers of SLAs as well as bolt/blast)

if anything, it is Archmage that is useless now.

by the way, in non epic, PMs were always slightly better than AMs, wailing an orthon is better than holding

Memnir
04-24-2011, 07:14 PM
/checks for a delorian parked in the lot with flaming tire tracks behind it.
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http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/bttf.jpg
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Bodic
04-24-2011, 07:22 PM
Silly thought, but the live serverside discussion over somthing that is not on live?

TheDearLeader
04-24-2011, 07:24 PM
Silly thought, but the live serverside discussion over somthing that is not on live?

My silly thought is someone bringing up a post a month old now. I swear, I've seen more necros in the last 72 hours, most from last year or worse.

Emili
04-24-2011, 07:25 PM
A necro'd thread on necros?