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View Full Version : That Epic Ward.



KillEveryone
03-16-2011, 09:02 PM
I don't like it. I can deal with it but I don't like it. It just smacks of easy way out because it was the fastest and easiest way to do things.

With Epic Ward, you pretty much invalidated the Tier III Assassin PrE. Sure a rogue will still do good damage but you don't get what your PrE offers in Epic at all. You hit lvl 18 and go...Yeah, every roll of 20 is a vorpal! This so rocks! Two levels later you do an Epic and you wonder why did I ever bother with this.

I'd like to see this ward gone in it's current incarnation. If you want to make instant death difficult, make the critter saves high to the extent that you really have to have a well built character to land that instant death spell and even require a TR or two to add in a certain feat or extra spell pen maybe even require the Pale Master Pre just to land those spells.

Instead of epic ward, have it a death ward that we can dispel but require a well built caster to be able to dispel that ward.

Instead of epic ward, give the critters equipment with deathblock on it that way we can Mordenkainen's Disjunction it.

I'm not looking for a easy button but a reason to memorize and use a few spells that are not used. Not many will use dispel on stuff because typical trash is pretty much dead, bosses have the immunities anyway that can't be dispelled, and I don't know of any reason to memorize Mordenkainen's beyond PvP.

I'd also like to give the casters something else to do than spam Mass Hold Monster. I don't mind casting that spell. I actually really like that spell a lot. I would like to see more casters use that spell when I'm on my melee and am very happy to cast that spell for the melee types when I'm on my caster. But, I'd just like to see a bit more variation in available tactics for epic stuff.

TheDearLeader
03-16-2011, 09:06 PM
Have you ever tried to dispel something?

Seriously. Spellsinger with Song of Arcane Might, Greater Dispel Magic, I can't get rid of Protection from Energy: Cold from a Fire Elemental in Amrath, more less Epic Mobs. That's on a roll of a 20.

Their caster level is just too high. Dispel/Disjunction are made useless by caster level alone.

KillEveryone
03-16-2011, 09:14 PM
Have you ever tried to dispel something?

Seriously. Spellsinger with Song of Arcane Might, Greater Dispel Magic, I can't get rid of Protection from Energy: Cold from a Fire Elemental in Amrath, more less Epic Mobs. That's on a roll of a 20.

Their caster level is just too high. Dispel/Disjunction are made useless by caster level alone.

No, I haven't tried. I figured stuff had immunities in general. It seems to be the path that is taken. Trash is also dead faster that I can cast that dispel then another spell anyway so I haven't bothered to memorize it.

I have it in my book. I'm going to have to try this out.

Have you tried singing up a wizard and have them use heighten with your song buff? I would figure they would have a better chance with dispel since they can cast lvl 9 spells.

TheDearLeader
03-16-2011, 09:20 PM
Read the entry on Greater Dispel Magic (http://http://ddowiki.com/page/Greater_Dispel_Magic).

The maximum spell level you can cast has nothing to do with it, only Caster Level. A Level 20 Wizard = a Level 20 Bard for the purpose of this spell.

KillEveryone
03-16-2011, 09:31 PM
Read the entry on Greater Dispel Magic (http://http://ddowiki.com/page/Greater_Dispel_Magic).

The maximum spell level you can cast has nothing to do with it, only Caster Level. A Level 20 Wizard = a Level 20 Bard for the purpose of this spell.

Ok so dispel isn't going to be useful anyway.

Have you tried Mordenkainen's? It does list it as ongoing spells but I always thought of this spell as more of an equipment breaker than a dispel. It also doesn't have a limit to your caster levels unlike Greater Dispel. It does have a longer casting time but Quicken should help that along.

TheDearLeader
03-16-2011, 09:33 PM
Ok so dispel isn't going to be useful anyway.

Have you tried Mordenkainen's? It does list it as ongoing spells but I always thought of this spell as more of an equipment breaker than a dispel. It also doesn't have a limit to your caster levels unlike Greater Dispel. It does have a longer casting time but Quicken should help that along.

Have not personally tested Disjunction. My Sorc doesn't have the spell slot to play with it. From others, though, I haven't heard anything good about it.

hityawithastick
03-16-2011, 09:39 PM
I am always annoyed when something is immune to my vorping. /signed to un-blanketing the immunities.

Feithlin
03-16-2011, 11:30 PM
There should exist ways to bypass (at least partly) raw immunities, but this should be the case for players AND monsters. Some immunities from some monsters are fine though. That prevents easy button mode (even if players keep finding a new easy button).

locus
03-17-2011, 06:40 AM
Their caster level is just too high. Dispel/Disjunction are made useless by caster level alone.
Yeah, this is one of the things that needs to be adjusted (probably by introducing items that raise caster level for players, or enhancements etc). There's so many ways of doing things that just simply don't work because of the insane HD present in high level monsters. But yeah, epics monsters are not much fun :)

Shade
03-17-2011, 07:09 AM
Have you ever considered the fact that, no matter how high a monsters hp/saves are set, without deathblock.. They will always die in average of 20 swings to a vorpal.

And considering how fast some classes can swing.. Thatt provides exactly zero challenge.

The only way they can keep us challenge, and allow vorpals, is to severely slow down our attack rates.

Would that be fun?

No.

So the suggestion is invalid. Epic is meant to be challenging. A completely ungeared/unskilled player having to swing a whole 20 times to kill every monster in a quest provides no challenge.


And epic isn't the only place where wards provide deathblock. Here is a list of some othes that have it too, for the same reasons:
Gianthold Tor
Select Reaver refuge giants
Select Amrath quests on monsters with crucible buff. (Heavily present in bastion, ToD, and on some monsters in Genesis and Invason)
IQ has nothing, but IQ is considered by any skilled player sto be a joke in tersm of difficulty.. Vorpals being one of the major reasons.

No deathblock = no challenge .
No challenge = no fun.

If you are sad your PrE isn't effective in epic.. Suggest a way to make your PrE effective (perhaps assasination could do a massive amount of damage to enemies with deathblock that would otherwise have died). Don't suggest massive nerfs that would kill any semblance of challenge for all classes.

locus
03-17-2011, 07:17 AM
Suggest a way to make your PrE effective (perhaps assasination could do a massive amount of damage to enemies with deathblock that would otherwise have died)..
Yep, this would be a good adjustment. Alternatively make the poison skills useful in conjunction with assassination (poison skill + successful assassinates puts a not insignificant DoT on mob, or a slow/debuff that doesn't wear off in <5 seconds, or poison+assassinate stuns for a short time or allows you to sneak past without generating aggro ("the monster's confused and doesn't notice you for the next ten seconds") or basically anything but autocrit fest/yawn).

KillEveryone
03-17-2011, 07:23 PM
Have you ever considered the fact that, no matter how high a monsters hp/saves are set, without deathblock.. They will always die in average of 20 swings to a vorpal.

And considering how fast some classes can swing.. Thatt provides exactly zero challenge.

The only way they can keep us challenge, and allow vorpals, is to severely slow down our attack rates.

Would that be fun?

No.

So the suggestion is invalid. Epic is meant to be challenging. A completely ungeared/unskilled player having to swing a whole 20 times to kill every monster in a quest provides no challenge.


And epic isn't the only place where wards provide deathblock. Here is a list of some othes that have it too, for the same reasons:
Gianthold Tor
Select Reaver refuge giants
Select Amrath quests on monsters with crucible buff. (Heavily present in bastion, ToD, and on some monsters in Genesis and Invason)
IQ has nothing, but IQ is considered by any skilled player sto be a joke in tersm of difficulty.. Vorpals being one of the major reasons.

No deathblock = no challenge .
No challenge = no fun.

If you are sad your PrE isn't effective in epic.. Suggest a way to make your PrE effective (perhaps assasination could do a massive amount of damage to enemies with deathblock that would otherwise have died). Don't suggest massive nerfs that would kill any semblance of challenge for all classes.

Suggestion is still valid. You have proven nothing.

I feel that the game would be better served if they actually adjusted critters to be difficult without giving them blanket immunities.

I have no problems with dealing with death ward but that is also something else that we can cast. If they were to give critters items with deathblock, at least that was an item that we also can wear. The effects may be very difficult at best to remove from the critters, but it should still be possible. They should have gear that can be broken with Mordenkainen's Disjunction. I'm sure they could cast it on us but I don't see that and am not sure if they even have it on their lists. I've seen them dispel my buffs before.

Just like the critters should also be casting some of those other higher level spells.

I'm not actually sad that one of the features of my rogues assassin pre is moot. Stupidmonkey isn't even 20 yet and I probably won't run her in epic when she is 20 unless the party needs a DPS. I'd much rather play my wiz or bard because I have more fun on those characters. I did suggest in that epic reboot thread that maybe a assassin should be able to do a higher amount of damage if they roll that 20 where in normal questing they would get that vorpal effect. At least it wouldn't invalidate that PrE in epics.

It really does go beyond Epic Ward immunities. It is immunities in general. It is cheap and easy way to supposedly make it more challenging. It doesn't really though. Spam mass hold monster and critters will die very fast anyway so it doesn't really matter if we can vorpal them or not. What do we use on held critters in epic...heavy picks because of that x4 multiplier. Critters still die fast and in those epics where we can cook them in our firewall, they are happy to stand in it. It may take longer for them to die in them but they make no effort at self preservation.

I really feel that it would be better for the game as a whole if immunities were removed and critters were given a polish to have better saves and really lets face it, they really need better AI. I do understand that it is difficult to write a good AI but really, do they need to just stand in my firewall and happily swing away at me while roasting their chestnuts?

It appears that immunities in general have been implemented to compensate for that AI. It feels sloppy and unpolished.

KillEveryone
03-17-2011, 08:01 PM
Just saw the Eladrin post from today.

Changes are coming and if I understand it correctly, so are those stupid immunities on epic trash. Looking forward to seeing the changes and I'm hoping they won't disappoint.

TheKaige
03-17-2011, 08:17 PM
Problem is Vorpal breaks the rules that stop everything from letting you beat monsters way over your level;

Damage effects, well, higher level monsters have higher hitpoints.
Every other instant-death effect has a save; higher level monsters have higher saves.
Even a 5% auto-paralyze or auto hold monster still has to deal with the fact that higher level monster has higher hitpoints

5% auto-death goes against everything that makes a higher level monster tougher; I'm fine with a vorpal WARD, (But not a death-ward), putting a HD/HP limit on what Vorpal can kill, or give Vorpal a fortitude save. Otherwise, not only do I not expect vorpals to be made useful at higher levels, but I hope they don't.

A good example of what vorpal should be is the Paladin HotD instant-death effect; it still has a save.

Otherwise, I agree; Epic-Ward needs removed.