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Iwant_DiabloThree
03-14-2011, 08:31 AM
What is wrong with you people?????? You want all the buffs, you want non-stop heals, you want haste at all times.... and then you go ahead and put mana pots on the auction house for 50k plat each?????? So a quest that MAYBE will profit 10k plat when all is said and done is supposed to be worth the healer or caster using even 1 mana pot, knowing that if he does, he just lost 40k plat. The day is coming that healers are gonna have to start asking for mana pots up front before embarking on a quest with people because he just can not afford to spam heals. If anything on the AH should be cheap its the mana pots, the benefit for others that a cleric has mana far outweighs the benefit that the cleric gets. No one wants to see a party fail, no matter how bad the party is, we all want to succeed. All you melee guys can buy health pots but a magic user either has to spend DDO points or do without.
Personally I will not run my cleric any longer, as much as I like everyone, it is just not fun for me anymore, every time I go to buy some mana pots and see the price of them I get disgusted and think " Why should I bother paying that kind of plat to heal and buff anyone."
Again I put forth this analogy, The day is coming when casters are going to want people to pay for their own buffs, and thats gonna mean everyone giving each magic user 1 major pot at the start of the quest, and when that means 100k out of everyones coffer, instead of just the casters, your gonna see some unhappy melee. The other option is that magic users will start telling people " If you don't have ship buffs thats not my problem because I need to ensure I have enough mana for the quest." This is not a road I wish to see DDO go down, this is not my idea of a good time.
Help me and all my caster brethren help you, and keep even the squishiest of you alive long enough to get your end reward. Help us ensure smooth runs, long lives and a growing platinum stash for all.......



And please guys dont respond to this with the " I dont use mana pots " or "If you need to use mana pots" stuff, I have herd it all a million times...and it is just a way to justify selling 50k plat mana pots.

phalaeo
03-14-2011, 08:37 AM
Why buy them at all?

I agree that 50K is a bit much, but TBH, I have never purchased a single Major off the AH and I run three Clerics.

Do I use them? Sure do. I use the ones I loot and I ask for donations if I use a larger than usual amount on a difficult quest/raid.

A suggestion- why not look into buying Medium/Small Eberron Dragonshard Fragments? Three smalls get you a Rest of the Eladrin Statuette and Three Mediums get you a Shard Trinket of Mnemonic Enhancement, which is a clickie trinket of 20 Majors, dissipears when depleted.

MogeeMaleeg
03-14-2011, 08:38 AM
Any healer worth his salt 99% of the time doesn't need mana pots. If you are relying on them, then you need to take a look at your build and your healing technique. I understand there are exceptions, (ie learning an epic ADQ, or EVON6, etc) but for most quests you don't need em. Get yourself a bauble, twisted talisman, etc. Craft a spell point item. There are a lot of ways to go, and I personally think that if you are a healer that relies on mana pots, you are going to be out of plat a lot.

ddobard1
03-14-2011, 08:38 AM
Don't complain about the value of Potions. The market dictates their price and feel free to refuse heal and/or buff anytime!

phalaeo
03-14-2011, 08:38 AM
Oh, and also-
Prices are through the roof ATM due to the plat infusion from the Pirate Event. They'll go back down.

NinjaNeed
03-14-2011, 08:38 AM
I sell my mana pots for whatever someone wants to pay for them. If the going rate is 50k the so be it.

Your rational could be extended to GS ingredients. Why are Large Scales 500k each when I need 6 for my Lit 2 picks which will help me kill things quicker so you dont need the pots to heal me as much.

If the price is 50k and no one buys then the price will drop. Simple.

LOOON375
03-14-2011, 08:40 AM
I can get 50 K?

smatt
03-14-2011, 08:41 AM
:(

Alright, I'll start posting them for 45kp...

Sorry :o

:D

patang01
03-14-2011, 08:41 AM
I regularly save all my major pots and sell them when I have a stack of 100. They will command a hefty price for the time it takes me between all my capped toons to collect it.

There are people who have a lot of resources and I'm never unreasonable. I don't sell a stack of 100 for 50k a piece, but it'll cost you.

I have learned how to conserve my mana and if people feel they want to blow through their supply like crazy they can. Either buy it from the TP store or buy or pull pots.

I also use the torq and con op on my FvS. In full nuking and healing mode I still know my limits and very seldom use any resources.

I would never buy a mana pot for 50k plat. Never. But anyone that does probably have the resources. I just recently managed to pull together another 100 Major pot stack and I will put it on the AH shortly. It'll sell and it's going to be for a price most new to this game won't be able to pay.

It's up to each caster (divine or arcane) to figure out how to best household with their resources. I use heal scrolls and when my FvS was lower level, wands. It's a great way of getting the most bang for the bucks without using plat for something as expensive as pots.

That's life and the same realities I operated under when I first started playing.

Culver.Civello
03-14-2011, 08:41 AM
And please guys dont respond to this with the " I dont use mana pots " or "If you need to use mana pots" stuff, I have herd it all a million times...and it is just a way to justify selling 50k plat mana pots.

1. Learn to Conserve mana better.

2. Be an *** if you have to. Meaning not healing zergers and other people that just do stupid things.

3. Don't be afraid to ask for a little pp here and there. Most people that think your a good healer will pass along wands and such to you anyways. I've passed along my wands and pots to many healers that have helped a lot in a quest.

4. If your party is just completely dependent on you, then when you run out of mana, it isn't your problem. At that point, I just pack potions for myself. They should have done the same and saved you the mana for tougher situations.

5. Be direct and up front about how things work when questing with you. Not always, but usually that will put things off to a much better start. If they kick you for being up front, then you wouldn't have wanted to group with them anyways.

It really isn't that hard to just not use mana pots. I've used them on rare occasions... and just pots that I've looted or have been given by party members. Just be a competent healer, and your party will realize it and often reward you with what they can.

Antheal
03-14-2011, 08:45 AM
I feel the exact same way about Devotion items and Cleric's unique/named loot on the AH for stupidly high prices.

Fejj
03-14-2011, 08:48 AM
Using poor play style to justify cheap pots on the AH is strange to me. I'll post them for however high they sell for. If people are buying them at 50K I'll post them at 55K :)

Don't buy them and the price will drop.

OH, and you don't need pots to finish 99% of the game. Learn to play better. (had to be said)

TheDearLeader
03-14-2011, 08:50 AM
Why is this under "Suggestions & Ideas"? Isn't this subforum supposedly about suggestions to improve the game, such as "implement X feat" and such?

Go to your Server subforum, complain about prices there. On Sarlona right now, they're 70k or more a pop, so consider yourself lucky.

Or better yet, go into your subforum's Marketplace, and offer to trade/make something fancy in trade for SP pots, like Reminiscence has for Sarlona (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3643804&postcount=1).

DaSawks
03-14-2011, 08:52 AM
Every healer should have stacks of Heal Scrolls. I never waist money on SP pots. In between fights I will top off other with HS. The OP is correct. The price of SP pots is outragous. Easy fix. Do not buy them. Ever.

Iwant_DiabloThree
03-14-2011, 08:56 AM
1st off, I asked you all not to go on and on about how you dont use mana pots, I dont really either, not gonna pay for healing or buffing anyone.
Buff up 1 shroud and all your mana is about shot.......
Solo heal a shroud and your gonna need pots, dont care who you are
New players...dont stand a chance, no money, no experience........not good way to get new people interested in being a healer if a guy has to save up all his plat for 10 levels just to buy 1 pot.

Say what you want, but have a little foresight, prices like that for mana pots does nothing for anyone, and it is leading down a road we dont want to head down

justagame
03-14-2011, 09:01 AM
Definitely don't buy mana pots.

While it's true that lately, I seldom use pots, it's only a little bit technique. It's really a combination of tactics, items (concopp and torc), but mostly group selection and behavior.

I went through so many pots when I first starting running shroud on my first cleric, I thought I wouldn't be able to keep running it. What changed? I used about 10% less mana from more efficient timing of mass cures and metas, and about 50% to 75% less mana from learning to be picky about who I grouped with. A shroud run that needs a 3+ rounder in part 4 and requires pots isn't because "you're healing wrong" -- it's because the group isn't doing enough damage. In non-raids, don't drink pots for groups that ignore basic tactics or who took on way too much quest or aggro for their abilities. It's your responsibility to heal the group as appropriate, but nowhere is it written that you must empty your plat account on groups that are in way over their heads and ignore OOM calls from the healer. As you play more, you'll start to identify when a single potion at the right time can mean the difference between success and failure -- and when even a stack of potions won't help. In the latter situations, you learn to keep your powder dry.

BTW, asking for 'donations' IMO only reinforces the notion that a cleric is there to simply quaff potions like water. (The exceptions would be high level stuff that the group knows in advance will be a drain on resources, due to party composition, difficulty, etc.) However, play with good players, and you'll find potions tossed your way now and then, especially after tough runs.

Once you decide to stop wasting pots on fail groups, and gear up a bit, you'll find you start collecting more pots at high level than you use.

flynnjsw
03-14-2011, 09:03 AM
1st off, I asked you all not to go on and on about how you dont use mana pots, I dont really either, not gonna pay for healing or buffing anyone.
Buff up 1 shroud and all your mana is about shot.......
Solo heal a shroud and your gonna need pots, dont care who you are
New players...dont stand a chance, no money, no experience........not good way to get new people interested in being a healer if a guy has to save up all his plat for 10 levels just to buy 1 pot.

Say what you want, but have a little foresight, prices like that for mana pots does nothing for anyone, and it is leading down a road we dont want to head down

Except people were getting along just fine before they even existed, so your arguments do not stand.

If your party wipes because you didn't drink a pot, the problem was not the prices of pots.

Farayon
03-14-2011, 09:03 AM
People who think it's an acceptable price pay it.

People who think they're too expensive don't buy any pots.

I'm not sure where the problem is?

For all I care, they can remove SP pots from the game entirely.

Tsuarok
03-14-2011, 09:04 AM
We all want everyone to be better players; sell everything for 1 cp, unless its useless.

But really, just grab some wands and only use sp pots in raids. Wand whipping will get you through most quests in the game without touching your sp pool, if that's what you want.

smatt
03-14-2011, 09:09 AM
We all want everyone to be better players; sell everything for 1 cp, unless its useless.

But really, just grab some wands and only use sp pots in raids. Wand whipping will get you through most quests in the game without touching your sp pool, if that's what you want.


What are these wands you're speaking of?

TheDearLeader
03-14-2011, 09:10 AM
1st off, I asked you all not to go on and on about how you dont use mana pots, I dont really either, not gonna pay for healing or buffing anyone.


You're on a forum; do you know what that is? You give your opinion, and people will give theirs back, even if its not the opinion you want to hear. If you want to go somewhere that everyone agrees with you, it starts with disconnecting your Internet.



Buff up 1 shroud and all your mana is about shot.......


What the deuce are you buffing that eliminates your SP? That's a nice way of me saying "you're doing it wrong".
Part 1 - Haste and Rage
Part 2 - Haste and Rage, Fire *or* FOM, possibly Protection from Evil and Mass Death Ward.
Part 3 - None
Part 4 - Haste, Rage, Fire, FOM.
Part 5 - Haste, Rage, Fire, FOM, Mass Death Ward.

Mass Death Ward is only necessary if Kasquik is involved (Vorpal)
Magic Circle Against Evil is only necessary is the Gnoll is involved (Greater Command)
As a Cleric, you can let the Arcane(s) of the Shroud run get Haste/Rage. So that's FOM x12, and *at most* 2 Mass Buffs. If that's too much a strain on your SP pool, you're doing it wrong.


Solo heal a shroud and your gonna need pots, dont care who you are

I know multiple Clerics/FvS who solo heal Shroud without needing a single pot. Most don't even need a Bauble charge to get through it. Heck, I know there are plenty of Bards on these forums that solo-heal Shroud. Instead of making a highly inaccurate blanket statement, perhaps you should instead be asking these players how you may improve yourself and your abilities.



New players...dont stand a chance, no money, no experience........not good way to get new people interested in being a healer if a guy has to save up all his plat for 10 levels just to buy 1 pot.


If you have no money, make it. There are multiple guides on these Forums explaining how to make plat in non-exploitative ways.
If you have experience, call upon the experience of those before you. Ask questions of veteran healers. Stop talking, start listening, heed their advice.
10 Levels worth of plat for 50k plat? I remember being a new player, and life's not *that* bad. Also, you neglect the most obvious : in 10 levels of gameplay, you're probably pulling SP pots from chests, as well. In fact, you'd be a statistical anomaly if you hadn't pulled at least a few SP pots here and there.

Let me direct you to not just one, but *two* good threads. Leave Rep if you like what he wrote.

Guide to in-quest spell point recovery (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305332)

Reducing spell point usage (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305737)

justagame
03-14-2011, 09:13 AM
1st off, I asked you all not to go on and on about how you dont use mana pots, I dont really either, not gonna pay for healing or buffing anyone.
Buff up 1 shroud and all your mana is about shot.......
Solo heal a shroud and your gonna need pots, dont care who you are
New players...dont stand a chance, no money, no experience........not good way to get new people interested in being a healer if a guy has to save up all his plat for 10 levels just to buy 1 pot.

Say what you want, but have a little foresight, prices like that for mana pots does nothing for anyone, and it is leading down a road we dont want to head down

Reading this, I also think you may be over-buffing. You should be never short on mana in shroud from buffing alone:

Very little is needed in part 1. Maybe true seeing for the melees if they need it, maybe 1 or 2 cheap mass buffs if you feel so inclined.

On part 2, rangers and arcanes can help with any needed resists (and you may not need much), throw a mass DW if the kobold is up, maybe FOM on whoever's on the earth ele if he's up. And you can run in the trees to mana up if needed.

Don't buff for part 3. They'll get dispelled, and you'll want that mana for pre-shrine buffing before part 4

For part 4, just fire, fom and poison, and have rangers/arcanes help to speed things along. Do this BEFORE shrining, then shrine up. Buff yourself with those same 3, then if you're still worried, top off in the pool.

For part 5, a mass DW (if the kobold is up) at resurrection, then fire fom and poison (again, rangers/arcanes should help). Then fill up in the pool.

And you CAN solo-heal without pots, you just need a good group. A really good melee group can have a 1-round part 4 (or at least a have him at under 10% in 1 round). (Obviously, I wouldn't recommend solo-healing a random pug shroud unless you can vouch for the competence of the melees.) If you can handle a full round by yourself (and if you can't, it's a casting efficiency or mana usage issue that you should fix), then you can solo-heal a good group. In part 5, with careful positioning you can heal from a pool if needed.

Forzah
03-14-2011, 09:14 AM
1st off, I asked you all not to go on and on about how you dont use mana pots, I dont really either, not gonna pay for healing or buffing anyone.
Buff up 1 shroud and all your mana is about shot.......
Solo heal a shroud and your gonna need pots, dont care who you are
New players...dont stand a chance, no money, no experience........not good way to get new people interested in being a healer if a guy has to save up all his plat for 10 levels just to buy 1 pot.

Say what you want, but have a little foresight, prices like that for mana pots does nothing for anyone, and it is leading down a road we dont want to head down

Resting after you buff may be a smart idea in Shroud, if you are the only one buffing :). Solo healing shroud is very doable without pots, as long as people have sufficient hitpoints. If they don't, let them die: it saves you a lot of mana. When all melee have 450 or more hp and there is one person with 250, you have to heal almost twice as much. So drop the one guy with 250 hp and you will be good. If you time your heals well, you can also heal a lot less. When there is no immediate threat, let cleric aura do the work, or use free heals to heal up the group.

grodon9999
03-14-2011, 09:16 AM
People who think it's an acceptable price pay it.

People who think they're too expensive don't buy any pots.

I'm not sure where the problem is?

For all I care, they can remove SP pots from the game entirely.

But it's really fouled up of people to sell SP pots at these absurd prices and then expect healers/casters to drink their way through a problem situation. Melees should simply give whatever pots they acquire to the casters/healers they run with.

Templarion
03-14-2011, 09:17 AM
When I buy mana pots, I pay 75k for 10 majors. I don't buy lesser amounts at all.

That's a price that have worked a long time.

smatt
03-14-2011, 09:17 AM
You're on a forum; do you know what that is? You give your opinion, and people will give theirs back, even if its not the opinion you want to hear. If you want to go somewhere that everyone agrees with you, it starts with disconnecting your Internet.



What the deuce are you buffing that eliminates your SP? That's a nice way of me saying "you're doing it wrong".
Part 1 - Haste and Rage
Part 2 - Haste and Rage, Fire *or* FOM, possibly Protection from Evil and Mass Death Ward.
Part 3 - None
Part 4 - Haste, Rage, Fire, FOM.
Part 5 - Haste, Rage, Fire, FOM, Mass Death Ward.

Mass Death Ward is only necessary if Kasquik is involved (Vorpal)
Magic Circle Against Evil is only necessary is the Gnoll is involved (Greater Command)
As a Cleric, you can let the Arcane(s) of the Shroud run get Haste/Rage. So that's FOM x12, and *at most* 2 Mass Buffs. If that's too much a strain on your SP pool, you're doing it wrong.



I know multiple Clerics/FvS who solo heal Shroud without needing a single pot. Most don't even need a Bauble charge to get through it. Heck, I know there are plenty of Bards on these forums that solo-heal Shroud. Instead of making a highly inaccurate blanket statement, perhaps you should instead be asking these players how you may improve yourself and your abilities.



If you have no money, make it. There are multiple guides on these Forums explaining how to make plat in non-exploitative ways.
If you have experience, call upon the experience of those before you. Ask questions of veteran healers. Stop talking, start listening, heed their advice.
10 Levels worth of plat for 50k plat? I remember being a new player, and life's not *that* bad. Also, you neglect the most obvious : in 10 levels of gameplay, you're probably pulling SP pots from chests, as well. In fact, you'd be a statistical anomaly if you hadn't pulled at least a few SP pots here and there.

Let me direct you to not just one, but *two* good threads. Leave Rep if you like what he wrote.

Guide to in-quest spell point recovery (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305332)

Reducing spell point usage (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305737)


While I agree with most of what you said... Remember that there are MANY groups out there that struggle in the Shroud now, and are not solo-healable by ANY healer, even the best of the best... Sometimes it's VERY poor equipment or very poor builds, and sometimes it's the "stupid factor", either on it's own are easily overcome, but both a tthe same time... :D Stupid is the incurable bane of all :o

But yes I think your overall point is correct, many people come from the POV of the orginal poster, are throwing out useless/unneccesary buffs, or haven't taken or had the time to equip their toons properly.

dakkon75
03-14-2011, 09:17 AM
I really don't understand some folks constant need for more sp. If you are playing a class that requires sp management then you should have learned conservation methods at an earlier level.

I play a cleric and I have learned over the years that cure moderate wounds, mass and heal scrolls are your friends. Over all they are cheap to use and replace.

The other day just to test myself, I ran Bastion of Power and decided to only use my clerical sp when absolutely necessary. Between my clerical healing aura, cure mwm scrolls, and heal scrolls, I didn't even use a shrine and made it to the end fight with a little over half my sp intact.

If the price of sp pots bothers you so much, learn other ways to get around not using them. They are something in my opinion that should be used only in the most desperate of situations and not a crutch used to get you through some random quest.

On a side note, it could be some of the folks you are running with that are the true cause of your lack of sp management. It is not necessary to have two or more clerics in a shroud run. Most high end skilled groups get by with only one cleric quite easily.

Beethoven
03-14-2011, 09:30 AM
I never bought Mana pots from the AH since I am unwilling to pay outragous prices and support this type of practice. My personal feelings on the matter are: you want to be part of a team effort, contribute and that includes sharing the costs of the endevour.

It's why I carry at least a few pots even on my melees, so if the worse comes to worse and casters (arcane or divine) have to use pots I am in a position to compensate.


Any healer worth his salt 99% of the time doesn't need mana pots.

Agreed as long as the healer sticks to running with guildies and friends only where the rest of the group have reasonable builds, halfway decent gear and are mostly capable.

However, as general statement it's bullocks. It's not always the hjeals fault. The group takes an eternity to beat down the dragon (EV6), 4+ rounds in Shroud (part 4) or your main Horoth tank turns out to have no healing amplification whatsover and you have to toggle between heal and maximized/empower cure crits to keep him/her alive you can easily end up in a position where your choices are to take pots or let them die.

Now, you could argue a "healer worth his salt" does not bother try heal suboptimal groups but there are players who do not subscribe to this elitist mindset (I for one don't). I gladly will make my voice heard, offer critic and suggestions on how to improve a performance. However, unless something happens that ticks me off, I will not stand there and let an entire raid group whipe if I can prevent it by simply taking a couple pots.


Your rational could be extended to GS ingredients. Why are Large Scales 500k each when I need 6 for my Lit 2 picks which will help me kill things quicker so you dont need the pots to heal me as much.

You know, I find this mindset mostly among people who think all a divine caster is good for is stand back and hjeal and thus all they really need is a potency/devotion item. There are many players who like use their divine casters to a greater potential.

So, no; the rational sure doesn't extend to greensteel ingredients. My GS greatswords cost as many larges as the barbarians GS axes. My hitpoint item isn't any cheaper either and above and beyond that I like having a greensteel spellpoint item.

Skiver and/or Noxious Ambers aren't exactly any cheaper or easier to come by than most melee gear. In fact, gear requirements on my Favored Soul are actually pretty high seeing how I aim to cover some melee capacity, gear to compliment offensive casting abilities (blade barriers particularly) and to cover my role as healer.

Now, you could argue my desire to create an actual divine caster (who can do multiple things) instead of a plain healbot is a personal choice. Then again, I could counter that in most cases you need me (the divine caster me, not necessarily me as person) more than I do you (the proverbial you).

phalaeo
03-14-2011, 09:35 AM
Buff up 1 shroud and all your mana is about shot.......
Solo heal a shroud and your gonna need pots, dont care who you are


1. That's why there are pools in the Shroud to regain SP. Or ask the Bard, Ranger, Paladin, Sorc, Wizzie to help with the buffs.

2. Total and complete falsehood. I've solohealed Hard Shrouds on a Clonk with 1845 SP with no pot usage.

Kriogen
03-14-2011, 09:39 AM
...No one wants to see a party fail, no matter how bad the party is, we all want to succeed. ...
No one wants to fail. But if party is really bad it should. How will players learn anything if your cleric "hides" all mistakes others do with mana pots?

Party wipe is a very good teacher. You don't really die you know, it's only a game. It only hurts your ego. Suck it up and be better next time.

I never bought a single mana pot on AH since 2006. And I never will. I only use mana pots I get in chests or quest reward. I use, but only if group needs that one last push to kill final boss monster. Maybe. If im in the right mood. But funny, its rare that I (or group I'm in) fails a quest.

grodon9999
03-14-2011, 09:42 AM
No one wants to fail. But if party is really bad it should. How will players learn anything if your cleric "hides" all mistakes others do with mana pots?

This is SO true, and a lesson I learned a long time ago on my healer. It's not your job to carry poor groups through quests. You SHOULD let them fail and let them know they failed because they weren't up to the task. It is not a healer's obligation to drink their way through carrying a bad group through a quest.

Not one quest in this game needs pots if the groups are built right and the players know *** they are doing.

TheDearLeader
03-14-2011, 09:46 AM
While I agree with most of what you said... Remember that there are MANY groups out there that struggle in the Shroud now, and are not solo-healable by ANY healer, even the best of the best... Sometimes it's VERY poor equipment or very poor builds, and sometimes it's the "stupid factor", either on it's own are easily overcome, but both a tthe same time... :D Stupid is the incurable bane of all :o

But yes I think your overall point is correct, many people come from the POV of the orginal poster, are throwing out useless/unneccesary buffs, or haven't taken or had the time to equip their toons properly.

I agree that there are groups that are near un-heal-able.

I still maintain that there are Shroud groups going in with 1 Healer, or even just 1 Bard, and completing the Raid, sans usage of SP Pots, and that the OP making a blanket statement to the contrary is against reality as we know it.

smatt
03-14-2011, 10:56 AM
This is SO true, and a lesson I learned a long time ago on my healer. It's not your job to carry poor groups through quests. You SHOULD let them fail and let them know they failed because they weren't up to the task. It is not a healer's obligation to drink their way through carrying a bad group through a quest.

Not one quest in this game needs pots if the groups are built right and the players know *** they are doing.

Individual XP debt upon deaths was a really good learning tool. Unfortuately.. It's not here anymore. :(

But yes I agree failign quests is a decent enough learning tool. As long as the people in question actually understand WHY they failed, which unfortuntely isn't always the case. But remember the postiion your talking from being a good player that typically runs with other good players that all have the best of the best equipment. It is true that a well led group of newer players with less than ideal equipment can do very well, if they choose to listen etc though. The "You don't need mana pots for such and such debate has been going on since I started playing 4 1/2 years ago...

As for mana pot prices on the AH, well ya 50kp is sickening high.. But if they're consistantly posting for that, then peopel are buying them... So the market dictates... The Plat Birthday bonanza is still having an effect on prices.. It will slowly funnel back down though .

JOTMON
03-14-2011, 11:04 AM
I drink pots on my healers all the time, not that i need to drink a pot, i just enjoy the taste...

Smart healing is learned
A healer can heal effectively without drinking pots with the occasional spot heal scroll.

Basics usually get missed like..

Shrining with mana - Anyone with a mana bar should not shrine until topping off party members with heals, buffing the party with individual buffs until mana is depleted before shrining themsleves. Rangers Paladins and Bards can cast many spells like resistance, FOM, poison resist, barkskin for those with usable AC (why bark a unraged barbarian with an AC of 10.. unless he has that ugly marilth chain on). If these other classes dont offer to give buffs then ask them to. Finish off those ones that they didn't buff.

Most cases of mana depletion i see are overhealing, the issue of poor use of combinations of healing.
Spamming a Max, Empheal,Emp, Quicken on Mass CCW without a Potency item when party is at 90%, instead of Mass Heal when party is at 50% and spotting the mass CLW/CMW if needed. Casting mass cures whan party is scattered.

Look at the mana cost of each of your spell combinations and utilize the cheapest one.. organize them on your hotbar in a way that makes sense to you. cycle in mass protect when elemental spells are involved. Have a caster spot the WF barbarian with reconstruct if they are the main tank if needed. Pre-plan some of these things depending on the quest.

Rezzing/rebuffing someone who dies more than 2 times in a fight is a waste of resources, leave them dead, tell them you will get to them when you get a chance or let someone else raise them. Re-entering a fight with death penalties will reduce their usefulness anyway.

Casting Greater Command, cometfalls - immobilized mobs dont do damage.

Call out - Healing on the guy attacking the enemy healer/caster. If you are not there then be prepared to heal yourself. Dont chase the guy at 30% life running across the room to attack the archer.

Party getting pegged by barrage of archers, move the combat back to a point of control.

Working as a group saves mana.

Be prepared to let poor players die, they will learn that you are not their personal healer and will not chase them for heals.

Roaringdragon
03-15-2011, 11:05 PM
I drink pots on my healers all the time, not that i need to drink a pot, i just enjoy the taste...

Smart healing is learned
A healer can heal effectively without drinking pots with the occasional spot heal scroll.

Basics usually get missed like..

Shrining with mana - Anyone with a mana bar should not shrine until topping off party members with heals, buffing the party with individual buffs until mana is depleted before shrining themsleves. Rangers Paladins and Bards can cast many spells like resistance, FOM, poison resist, barkskin for those with usable AC (why bark a unraged barbarian with an AC of 10.. unless he has that ugly marilth chain on). If these other classes dont offer to give buffs then ask them to. Finish off those ones that they didn't buff.

Most cases of mana depletion i see are overhealing, the issue of poor use of combinations of healing.
Spamming a Max, Empheal,Emp, Quicken on Mass CCW without a Potency item when party is at 90%, instead of Mass Heal when party is at 50% and spotting the mass CLW/CMW if needed. Casting mass cures whan party is scattered.

Look at the mana cost of each of your spell combinations and utilize the cheapest one.. organize them on your hotbar in a way that makes sense to you. cycle in mass protect when elemental spells are involved. Have a caster spot the WF barbarian with reconstruct if they are the main tank if needed. Pre-plan some of these things depending on the quest.

Rezzing/rebuffing someone who dies more than 2 times in a fight is a waste of resources, leave them dead, tell them you will get to them when you get a chance or let someone else raise them. Re-entering a fight with death penalties will reduce their usefulness anyway.

Casting Greater Command, cometfalls - immobilized mobs dont do damage.

Call out - Healing on the guy attacking the enemy healer/caster. If you are not there then be prepared to heal yourself. Dont chase the guy at 30% life running across the room to attack the archer.

Party getting pegged by barrage of archers, move the combat back to a point of control.

Working as a group saves mana.

Be prepared to let poor players die, they will learn that you are not their personal healer and will not chase them for heals.

These are all true, they are all needed greatly on my bard. Since a couple times a week, he gets asked in PuGs as the main healer (***?) since PuG decides to not have cleric. That why I always use ardor/potency item b4 healing and shrining when needed. Also...I don't like to heal the monk with 2 con always... I learned that after 1 PuG, which almost depleted 1/3 of my sp when I could've been healing the main dps who almost killed the boss but died since my sp was gone on teh monk.

LordPiglet
03-15-2011, 11:21 PM
1st off, I asked you all not to go on and on about how you dont use mana pots, I dont really either, not gonna pay for healing or buffing anyone.
Buff up 1 shroud and all your mana is about shot.......
Solo heal a shroud and your gonna need pots, dont care who you are
New players...dont stand a chance, no money, no experience........not good way to get new people interested in being a healer if a guy has to save up all his plat for 10 levels just to buy 1 pot.

Say what you want, but have a little foresight, prices like that for mana pots does nothing for anyone, and it is leading down a road we dont want to head down

How much mana is fire, fom and a couple masses?

I've seen many people solo heal shroud. I've even seen someone solo heal epic dq (with one pot used)

GotSomeQuestions
03-15-2011, 11:22 PM
Buff up 1 shroud and all your mana is about shot.......
Rangers and Pallies can take care of FoM, FR, Neutralize Poison, etc. Bards can do GH, FoM, Haste, Rage. Arcanes can do GH, FR, Haste, Rage. Figure out who can do which buffs and then make them do it. No need to waste your own sp.

Also, if you need to buff everyone after part 3, buff, THEN shrine. Gets all your sp back, doesn't take much to self buff.

Solo healing doesn't take pots if the group is good enough, but if your groups aren't, make them take a 2nd healer to ease the sp burden.

fuzzy1guy
03-15-2011, 11:29 PM
ddo players are pretty schizophrenic when it comes to sp and pots.

YES! I need this buff and that buff and heals and cc and killing from you!
NO! You should never be out of sp because this place is so easy.
YES! you should carry pots just in case to pull MY fail group thru.
NO! We don't have any pots to give you at the start of what could be above our capability.
YES! Mem pots really are worth 10-50k each!
NO! I won't cut you a deal on pots i sell. But i might give you one if i'm nice. Unless you're an arcane.


It's all kind of funny really.

I just made the rule early on that i will only drink a pot if *I* choose to for whatever reason.
No matter how many i'm carrying on any character.
And i have no problem standing around dead as a soulstone while the group argues about who's fault the wipe was.


Sometimes a group learns more from failing than success. (ok. not often. but they should.)



edit: (and why do so many people think paladins get FoM?)

grodon9999
03-15-2011, 11:40 PM
Individual XP debt upon deaths was a really good learning tool. Unfortuately.. It's not here anymore. :(

I wish this was around still, people would learn to play smarter faster but then again maybe Turbine wouldn't have as much income form a smaller player base and that would be a bad thing.



But yes I agree failign quests is a decent enough learning tool. As long as the people in question actually understand WHY they failed, which unfortuntely isn't always the case. But remember the postiion your talking from being a good player that typically runs with other good players that all have the best of the best equipment. It is true that a well led group of newer players with less than ideal equipment can do very well, if they choose to listen etc though. The "You don't need mana pots for such and such debate has been going on since I started playing 4 1/2 years ago...

True, better-geared players with more experience will get things done easier. But drinking SP-pots is the "canary in the coalmine." If you need them then something is wrong, if pots are needed your strategy needs to be re-examined.

BoolZ
03-15-2011, 11:58 PM
Wait, people sell SP pots on the AH? All this time those stupid little bottles have been taking up inventory slots they could have been making me plat.

Seriously though you shouldn't *need* SP pots. And if your group wants you to have more mana for buffs or *needs* the hjeals then the group, good groups anyway, will get you the SP pots/scrolls/wands. I've given, I've seen others give, I've seen spellcasters happily/greatfully accept. And I'm seldomly topped off more than after I pass a couple wands.

And whats the going rate for a medium Eberron shard? Last I sold, way before CC, was at like 60k. So back then three of them would have run 180k, and apperently they can turn into some major SP pot 20 charge trinket. That's only 9k per charge. Much better than 50k.

fuzzy1guy
03-16-2011, 12:08 AM
eb shards running 100k each lately. +/- 20k Or more.

300k for 20 pot equivilant that you can only have one of. Full or empty. 15k. still not a great deal to drop 10k into a quest that will give 1k reward.


One of the biggest problems with pots/trinket is the huge sp range too. 105 to 600sp. (that cant be right.. might be tho. wiki/compendium says thats the #'s.)

Getting 100sp back for 10-50k... ouch.

LordPiglet
03-16-2011, 12:29 AM
Rangers and Pallies can take care of FoM, FR, Neutralize Poison, etc. Bards can do GH, FoM, Haste, Rage. Arcanes can do GH, FR, Haste, Rage. Figure out who can do which buffs and then make them do it. No need to waste your own sp.

Also, if you need to buff everyone after part 3, buff, THEN shrine. Gets all your sp back, doesn't take much to self buff.

Solo healing doesn't take pots if the group is good enough, but if your groups aren't, make them take a 2nd healer to ease the sp burden.

Pally's can't FoM. people should be buying poison pots if they can't self cast a resist, wear a resist item or get a clickie (Pouch of Jerky).

Really though, one again I'm actually watching a shroud over buff. I need haste and rage, and that's pretty much all I need to go. I can actually self buff everything else I need.

hmmm, things went south in part 4 and lost a cleric like right off the bat. One who lived and I spotted taking a pot in part 4 got pots in the mail from me.

smatt
03-16-2011, 12:38 AM
I agree that there are groups that are near un-heal-able.

I still maintain that there are Shroud groups going in with 1 Healer, or even just 1 Bard, and completing the Raid, sans usage of SP Pots, and that the OP making a blanket statement to the contrary is against reality as we know it.

LOL, no I didn't say anywhere that the Shroud isn't solo healable.. In fact I have no problem solo healing it as most other long time vets do, with groups that have reasonable builds blah blah blah... There are many bards that can solo heal it.... NO MANA pots... What I did say is that there are A LOT of crappy Shroud pugs these days. Why? Becasue there are a lot fo new players to the game, and unlike in previous years when it took time to get to cap, the community was smaller and the ratio of players willing to teach inexperienced players was much better... There are alos a lot more peopel who don't use voice, who dont' LISTEN to voice becasue theyr'e playing their crappy music selection on their crappy mp3 or they dont'understand the language of the day, or lastly are just plain stupid :D And even if soemone tries to help them, they jsut can't seem to follow simple well laid out directions.

No then, of course when the Shroud came out it was much harder, but as time went on with constant repetition it got easier and easier for all of us. Expecting NEW players to walk through it like long time vets do is pretty stupid (Note: not calling you stupid) But amny bets today simply think that since THEY can do it, then someone that's been playing a few months or even 6-9 months can.. It's just not the case... Although, I'm very much a guilty party at tiems in PuG shrouds when stupid stuff is going and people refuse to listen or accept some very basic simple advice in tactics etc. As I said before a godo number of poeple have no clue about tactics, they know "Me Hit things" or "Me cast 47 dancing balls".. They don't really hae any idea aobu tthe quest itself and why stuff happens certain ways. This kind fo stuff goes for probalb y 40% of the PuG Shrouds I end up in on Ghal at least, mostly it's the U.S daytime ones that are really frustrating. Again though lots of newish players, lots of language barriers, lots of stoned kids, lots of dumb dumbs..

But in the end yes.. He's making a blanket statement out of inexperiance.... He simply doesn't run with vet players, he's likely running in low DPS/lowHP groups. If he sticks at it... He'll get better and better just as most of us did... (Well I stopped getting better about 2 years ago.. I I hit my peak, and struggle to maintain even a respectable game anymore :eek::o)

~jradnut
03-16-2011, 12:39 AM
What is wrong with you people?????? You want all the buffs, you want non-stop heals, you want haste at all times.... and then you go ahead and put mana pots on the auction house for 50k plat each??????

I know, right? Aint capitalism wunerful? :rolleyes:

fuzzy1guy
03-16-2011, 12:47 AM
Sure is!
You wanna be rezzed? 50k!

Theres an idea... Let dead characters conduct trades with other players! YES! AWESOME! /SIGNED!

Bonus! Greater dispel is now useful! That's a nice set of buffs you got there... Be a shame if something.... happened.. to them at the wrong moment!