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Shade
03-12-2011, 01:17 PM
Ingame Tip #30:


Tip #30: Raid adventures allow raiding parties (up to 12 players) to enter. These are high level adventures, and are tough to complete!

This was always the intention from day 1 from the original developers. But sadly is no longer true for most raids.
Raiding in DDO is one of the favourite thing to do of MANY endgame players. We love to do raids. And we also love having a challenge, as well as rewards to match our levels and the challenges presented. When most raids were added, this was the case.
EG:
Module1:
VoN5/6, Cap:10. Raid lvl:10. Ultra challenging.
Module2:
Titan, Cap:10. Insanely challenging (Only 1 guild in the entire game managed to beat the original version, was awesome)
Module3:
DQ, Cap:12. A drop down from titan, but still very challenging.
Etc.

Today?
VoN5 normal, at the current cap: 20. Trivial and boring. Most players wait at the start while 3-4 players zerg and complete the objectives in 5-10min.
Sure we can run epic to make it challenging, but for some players - Epic is just a bit too difficult, so having it available to run at lvl20 on normal, along with rewards that lvl20 players would enjoy - would just be pure awesome.

Now the most recently added raid?
Chronoscope = level6. Now I understand DDO has new developers that may not agree with the original developers spirit of raid design, and that they were trying to do something new to cater to the new players that asked for more low lvl content. And thats great. But lets face the facts:
Chronoscope is almost never ran at lvl. It's ran either with the lvl range set to 6-20 so new players can get some easy loot, or instead on epic difficulty at least 50 times more often... Leaving no real in between ground where its ran as it was intended to be done so.

Why?
Because we like high level raids. We prefer to do them at end game, where we can be sure the player that is joining has some expierence in the game, and at least understands the basic concepts.

So lets fix it. Make all current raids (except maybe chronoscope as it was always intended to be lowbie raid) lvl20. As even tempest spine, was always intended originally to be a high lvl endgame raid, and sadly it no longer is.

So I will offer and compile not only my own, but other players ideas to make raids more fun to run at level20. Suggest your ideas and I'll add them to this OP as long they aren't 100% in conflict with whats already here.

Tempest Spine
Overall I think this would be an easy one to make challenging to level 20s. As it's always been a very vast and somewhat complex raid to complete given all the puzzles and interesting mechanics nessasary to win.. So no real mechanic changes are needed, just mainly an increases in stats and spawns to provide more action to high lvl players. Perhaps a slight increase in density of the drow enemies. And give them very high armor class to bring the raids original design back where they drow blackguard warriors are very hard to take down with melee attacks, but can still be dealt with via certain spells and tactics.
Bossfight: All 3 runes should be required to win on all difficulties, no overpowering him with DPS and just 1 rune. The blow you off the side of the mountain mechanic is a bit unforgiven to more casual players tho, so I suggest it is removed for normal dificulty, but remain for hard and elite - and infact be worse on elite then it is now. By adding some extremely dangerous foes in the direction you get knocked down too, and much higher damage for the lava you may fall into.
For elite only:
The puzzle should randomly reset at diffierent intervals, requiring you to do redo it to bring Sorjek back into vulnerable states once again.
Rewards:
Current low lvl unbound rewards should be kept, but at a lower droprate (to make up for the fact the raid should be much more popular and be ran more often, thus more of these items will exist in the economy). While some much stronger versions of these rewards are placed in the end raidchest, balanced for level20s and BTC. Perhaps rename the old ones with a prefix of "vintage" to make players who did the old verison of tempest spine feel like they are real veterans and have something to show for it.
Raid loot ideas (raidloot would be fairly rare drops and the raid would gain a 3 day timer like all raids):
Commanders Maelstrom:
ML18
+5 Greataxe. 2d12 + 5 base. Anarchic Burst, Frost, Freezing Ice. 20/x4 critical. would make a very nice trash killer wep vs lawful oponents. But not outclass epics like xuum or sos in terms of raw DPS.
Ideally an epic upgrade would be available too: Perhaps to +8, and add a red slot and absolute chaos (with no umd req like the new epic cuthroats)
Grand Archmage's Robe of Arcane power:
ML18, Exclusive.
Arcane Augmentation VII
Superior Potentcy VII
1 click of spell frenzy (+100% psionic bonus spell dmg, 1 min, like eardweller - but fix the stacking bug)
Epic upgrade: 3 Clicks, Epic potentcy VII (+60%)

Vault of the Night:
- Warforged all balanced to be as tough as barbazus in the tower of despair. They all use stunning blow very often, and have an amazingly high strength, only a ppl with a massive fort save should attempt to fight them in melee.
- Arachs Knight actually puts up a major fight (not cuz of epic HP like current epic mode) but instead by teleporting around and dealing incredible damage. His reactive shielding now does force damage instead of sonic, tho not much (5 on normal, 10 on hard, 15 on elite, 20 on epic)
- Velah as is on epic in terms of strategy (djinni present on all difficulties, but obviously much easier on normal). But a bit less Hp obviously on Velah as well on lower modes. Breath on normal/hard only does about 400 dmg instead of 800, but still applies the debuff, making a 2nd breath hit still deadly.

Issue with ppl running von5 on normal, and 6 on epic, breaking the flow of the raid:
Fix this by merging von5 and 6 into 1 instance. You click the portal to the plane of night, but dont enter a new instance, instead you just teleport up there as its on the same map. This should prevent cheating the difficulty as ppl do now where they just run normal for 5, and 6 for epic, making the only challenge a 10min fight, rather then the longer 1hr long challenging raid its intended to be. For epic only, adding higher chance at seals in each chest, and 1% higher chance at scrolls throughtout the raid should make up for the fact that von5 is currently rather brutal on epic. Perhaps a slight reduction of WF hitpoints on epic also would be in order, due to the average completion time by most groups currently being in the 60+ minute range, which is abit too long for a raid that doesnt include the extra 10min Velah takes.

Raidloot:
Tomes: +3 for normal/hard. +4 very small chance on elite, and slightly higher on epic (well same chance as now for epic, elite being slightly lower).
Sword of Shadows:
Base up to 3d6 for non epic. Min lvl goes up to 18. Whether or not this should be retroactive or not is up to the devs.
Various Necklaces:
Become actually useful by giving them all superior VIII spell boost clickies like the amrath belts. (epic versions gain the same)
Various stat items:
+6 stats for ml18 version, with the same epic upgrades bring them to +7 as now.

Titan:
Already a very complex, challenging and long raid, only major issue now is the lack of compelling loot for lvl20s, and bit too low stats on mobs. Stats should be brought up to similar to what youd find in tower normal for the various enemies.
- Stunning blow for WF melee again as von5
- Mindflayers need to be red named with increased HP, to give them a chance to activate there rather slow brain sucking abilities. Elite only: Mindflayers can mass power word stun, and brain suck an unlimited number of targets at once (within range)
(Heal removes the stun, so healers could stay back out of range to save people)
Mindflayer Boss;
Was always a bit of joke. Perhaps give him a ward against damage until his pets are killed, and pets get epic grease breath that ignores freedom of movement. Also make hte arena sloped, so the grease knocks you down below into the lightnign traps. On normal you can just climb back up. on elite - no laders and lightning traps do massive damage (but can be disabled)

Old issue - preraid normal, boss elite: Again merge preraid and raid into 1 instance. No cheating the preraid by running a lower difficulty, then getting a higher dificulty for better rewards on boss.
Titan himself:
Needs very little changes since his difficulty was never based on levels, but rather player skill. Tho given the practice elite players have gotten over the years I do have suggestions for elite/epic only (hard and normal remain unchanged, except HP/stats increases):
-Pillars - All 8 must hit or raid failed.
- Hammer drop: No balance check, you always fall off.
- Laser kills any nearby pillars like the old bug to add additional strategy required (must use further outside pillars for safety)
Endfight once shield is dropped:
Massive epic grease trap covers the ground as oil splurts out of the warforged titan. DC40 reflex save of fall. (trap remains for say 20 seconds)
Knocking everyone down on the lower level as he prepared his laser. (also he should scream "IMMA CHARGING MAY LAZER"" (lol) Laser always aimed at Cleric, Favored Souls and bards only to cause havok for healers trying to hide up top and not trying to dodge it as they should.
HP: Massively increased to about 50,000 for final part. Hammer drop does 400 damage. Blades/Cuters same dmg as now.
Constant reinforments arrive in the form of adamantine defenders and little warforged, say every 2min.
Loot (all ML18 and BTC, epic upgrades available):
Tomes: +3 for normal/hard. +4 very small chance on elite, and slightly higher on epic.
Belt of Brute Strength:
Strength +7
Superior False life (HP +40)
Toughness
Moderate Fort
Set bonus with any armor or docent from raid:
Titanic Shielding (whenever you are hit in melee, you occasonally surge with unstable energy, gaining protection from elements (120 points) for 12min and SR40 for 1 minute. Procrate: 2% (Powerful, but keep in mind the armors and docents wont be super strong, so its a trade off from wearing other powerful armor)
Epic Upgrade:
Strength +8
Epic False life (HP +50)
Green slot.
Titanic Docent:
ml18, exclusive
3x Titanic shield, and caster lvl increased to 20, so duration = 30 seconds instead of 15
DR5/Adamantine
Improved repair systems (Regenerates 6 hp every 6 seconds)
Set bonus with belt as above.
Epic Upgrade:
+6 enhancement and
Epic Repair systems (Renegerates 10 hp every 6 seconds)
Blue slot.

DQ1 and 2:
Merge into 1 raid. Talk to Zawabi to enter so no annoyingly long run thru the menechtarun.
DQ1:
Expand the scope, by simply doubling the map size, then adding some slightly increased spawns. Perhaps same amount as epic for normal, and epic itself has say 10% more then now.
- Needs more shrines due to increased encounter rate:
Normal: New shrine every 2 wings completed, spawns at end of wing. total of 3 new shrines.
Hard: Same
Elite/Epic: New shrine every 3 wings, total of 2 new shrines.
Epic: Increased scroll and seal droprate to make up for the fact we now have to run the preraid on epic for every time we want a shot at lailats epic raidchest.
Endfight:
No caged in fight as now, as it's a bit too small an area for 12 players. Only have the disjunction orb fight - with low HP on lailat. followed by a shrine, then the current raidboss fight.
Just obviously with stats expanded to near-epic mode for lvl20 normal/hard/elite. Tho no normal, no lockout if telekenised off the side. That should be the case on elite and epic only.
BTW: Lailat needs an AI fix to move around move often and be more aggressive like she used to be, so if ppl attempt to just gather up and spam heal thru her dmg, she makes more overrun/knockdown attempts versus the healers causing havok.
Loot:
Non epic:
Many items are already still very useful to lvl20s as is (torc, marilith chain, etc). Tho some could do with some interim improvments to make them between the current lvl12 version and the lvl20 epic version.
Chaosblade:
Base dice increased to 2d8 for non epic too. Epic remains as is. ML increases to 18.
Lionheaded belt buckle:
+5 to stats, epic goes to +6 as is.
Dustless boots: Striding 25%, epic goes to 30 as is.
Tomes: +3 for normal/hard. +4 very small chance on elite, and slightly higher on epic.
Epic:
Needs a big revamp for the raidloot chest, it just has too much **** atm.
Remove all desert rares - non bound loot does not belong in an raid chest. Nor does the BTA loot - remove it, BTA stuff belongs in low lvl adventures for players who arent quite sure about there character yet so they can delete/reroll/swap there gear, not in endgame raids where ppl are pretty sure they like there character, as they managed to get them high lvl.

Seals - remove, they belong in preraid area and quests chests only.
Shards - remove the quest specific shards, again they belong in the quests where you get the loot only.
Only shards to drop should be raid + desert rares.
Pretty much imo:
Epic Chest: In ADDITION to the raid chest, not replacing. Epic chest only drops shards, and very small chance at tomes.
Raid chest, same as elite, but higher droprate. Raidloot + tomes only.

More ideas to make raids more fun for all endgame players to come later.

Dendrix
03-12-2011, 01:21 PM
Instead of loads of work to rebalance te current raids and make new items etc, simply make new raids.

more content is better

Shade
03-12-2011, 01:30 PM
Instead of loads of work to rebalance te current raids and make new items etc, simply make new raids.

more content is better

It's not really that much work to rebalance stats.

Hell it can be done dynamicly and automatically very effevtively as we've seen in the crystal coves lvl1-25 auto scaling system.

The loot and mechanic updates woulds take more work. But not near the same amount of work as say creating new raids.

Also keep in mind, stat/system changes are done by programmers. (and decided upon first by directors, like Eladrin)

Versus new raids which are created by graphic artists doing the maps, monsters and any new item models first, then later programmers setting up the AI/Scripts/etc. They can't be done at the same time, complex game design requires several steps.

Programmers can't make monster models or maps (at least usually not very nice looking ones heh).. Thus what you asking in terms of priorities for turbine is invalid. Programmers need to keep busy one something, and rebalancing old raids is, imo a great way to kepe them busy utnil they are needed to set up the AI for the new raids that are in the works at the same time.

So both can be done, without too much interferance with one another.

and it's essentially what was being done with epic. But epic as a concept has failed as it was always something that catered to too small a portion of the player base. My suggestion is meant for all difficulties and thus should be of interest to all players that enjoy endgame raiding, regardless of skill or equipment level.

cpito
03-12-2011, 01:38 PM
Overall tl;dr but...

Sorry, raids are still run and enjoyed at level and epics are not a bit too difficult. This game should not cater to level 20's only and should continue to provide toons leveling up with an opportunity for some fun and excitement. I think it's a little ironic... if raids are for level 20's, how long before we get people in here complaining about all the lvl 20s who have no idea how raids work? In other words: lets not take the learning experience away.

Shade
03-12-2011, 01:45 PM
Overall tl;dr but...

Sorry,.

Lets see:
Did not even read the suggestion.
Apologizes in advance like they KNOW theyre posting something useless.
Doesn't add anyting useful to the topic.

3/3 on on the trolling score. You win.

PS: I accept your apology. Don't do it again tho.

chodelord
03-12-2011, 01:49 PM
I run chrono at proper level, its fun, my fvs made nearly 2 levels just on that raid

no need to re-balance, everyone has the option of making an at level group for fun and xp, most people dont but they have the option

ddo isn't about "challenge" even the "challenge" of gear check which is really what most progression raids in WoW are (or used to be, haven't played since BC)

Shade
03-12-2011, 01:53 PM
Hi chodelord, im going to offer you a series of quotes that may make you rethink your post.


I run chrono at proper level, its fun, my fvs made nearly 2 levels just on that raid
Perhaps read the suggestion before replying? Seems to be a common theme lately. Allow me the quote the relevant portion for you

So lets fix it. Make all current raids (except maybe chronoscope as it was always intended to be lowbie raid) lvl20.


ddo isn't about "challenge"
For this one , let me quote one of DDOs best developers : Madfloyd. This is his signature infact:

No challenge, no fun.

DDO is a challenging game. And fully intended to be so.

TreknaQudane
03-12-2011, 01:58 PM
How bright is it to flag for a raid with level say 9~10 quests and then suddenly have the raid level 20?

This is a bad idea. It will stop people from experiencing the raids since not everyone plays with the goal of getting to twenty and it definitely interrupts the story behind most of the raids since you get a big fat stop sign that says come back later.

LeLoric
03-12-2011, 02:00 PM
How bright is it to flag for a raid with level say 9~10 quests and then suddenly have the raid level 20?

This is a bad idea. It will stop people from experiencing the raids since not everyone plays with the goal of getting to twenty and it definitely interrupts the story behind most of the raids since you get a big fat stop sign that says come back later.

Don't you know only shade's view of how the game should be played is a viable one.

Absolute-Omniscience
03-12-2011, 02:05 PM
Some good ideas here!
A compromise to still keep the level of the raids as originally intended would be to simply add the level 20 difficulty for hard / elite.
Lets face it, people might want to run von 5-6 at level 11ish after flagging, but very few will take the time to do it on hard or elite on that level. So bump the level of the old raids to 20ish if run on hard / elite, and implement most of the changes you suggested and we've got a system that works great for everyone!

Shade
03-12-2011, 02:07 PM
It will stop people from experiencing the raids since not everyone plays with the goal of getting to twenty and it definitely interrupts the story behind most of the raids since you get a big fat stop sign that says come back later.

It's currently already like that for many raids, and seems fine to me. Abbot is an good example.

Flagging quests lvl14, and easy enough to be done at low as 11. Abbot is almost never done successfully by anyone until 19-20, it's CR17 and difficult as most endgame lvl20 raids.

I don't see how a raid being lvl20 means you cant start it at lower lvl tho anyways. lvl16-20 should still be fine to run them on normal.

Far as storyline goes. Most players I don't actually read or follow the storyline. The ones patient enough to do so? Are also patient enough to levle up a bit and continue them at appropriate level.

To me, almost everyone I know who is new to the game did not raid at low lvl, because they could not get groups for said raids even if they wanted to. And if they did, they almots always failed dueto the lack of expierence of the players in said raids.

Is it really important to learn how to go into a lowbie raid and wait hours for it to fill, only to wipe horribly to continue to get beter as a player?
As I said, the one raid initially designed to always be a lowbie raid wuld not change (Chronoscope) so that option would certainly still be present. Just the raids that were orginally intended to be challeging to players at hte lvl cap would.

So I don't agree.

I'd challenge you to take a full group of new level12 players into Titan and win before they all gave up and decided to gain expierence elsewhere. It just would not happen. This raid, and others are complex enough that they take serisous dedication to figure out and complete, enough that youd likely be lvl20 long before you figure out the correct strategy. (with no one who has had lead it succsssfully before aiding you, as would most likely be the case if you set the level range to 9-12)

Let me ask you tho:
When you were leveling your last 1-20 character (say one done since the cap was already increased to 20), which raids did you run at level, and how succesfull were you on said runs? Did the groups fill fast?
Are you a play with no plans to get to level20, yet very interested in running raids?
I think i already know the answers to these, but go ahead.. let us know.

ddobard1
03-12-2011, 02:09 PM
Raids only at level 20 sounds nice. More most content should be level 20 and conquered with Heroes' blood!

/signed unhesitatingly

Absolute-Omniscience
03-12-2011, 02:13 PM
Let me ask you tho:
When you were leveling your last 1-20 character (say one done since the cap was already increased to 20), which raids did you run at level, and how succesfull were you on said runs? Did the groups fill fast?
Are you a play with no plans to get to level20, yet very interested in running raids?
I think i already know the answers to these, but go ahead.. let us know.

To be fair, a lot of powergamers run titan and von 5-6 on appropirate level, simply for the exp. Sometimes when I don't level up a character alone, ie I do it in a group, we tend to stop at von 5-6 around level 11, simply because we've flagged it by farming exp in the earlier von parts, and doing it 6 man in 15ish minutes is quite nice exp.

Hence my suggestion above, only change the hard and elite difficulty.

Shade
03-12-2011, 02:17 PM
Raids only at level 20 sounds nice. More most content should be level 20 and conquered with Heroes' blood!

/signed unhesitatingly

:) Yes someone agrees.

Almost felt like I was alone here for a moment and the whole forum was filled with casual players who loved running lowbie titan raids...

Funny the outspoken opinions on the forums rarely match the ones you find ingame. Too many serious players have been run off by the trolls I fear. eh, at least I have most of the trolls on this thread on the ignore list.

TreknaQudane
03-12-2011, 02:20 PM
It works that way for ONE raid. The only reason the Abbot is like that is that they raised it's level after implementing it.

It's also moronic to run a level 14 quest at level 11. You get no bonus for doing it under level and doing it at level or one over will make it go quicker.



Let me ask you tho:
When you were leveling your last 1-20 character (say one done since the cap was already increased to 20), which raids did you run at level, and how succesfull were you on said runs? Did the groups fill fast?

TS, Too many to count, of course it was successful

Dragon, three times, level 10,11,12. Did with around 8 people each time. Successful

Titan, once, level 10. 7 People. Successful

ATDQ, twice, levels 13 and 14, 9~11 people, don't remember. Succesful

Stormreaver? Didn't bother.

Shroud? Would have loved to, but people seem to think you have to be 20 to complete it now *cough*

VoD, twice, level 16 and 17, full raid, successful

Hound, four times, 16 and 17, full raids (one was 11), successful

Abbot? 17-18, doesn't count since mostly only 20s run it anyway.

cpito
03-12-2011, 02:24 PM
Lets see:
Did not even read the suggestion.
Apologizes in advance like they KNOW theyre posting something useless.
Doesn't add anyting useful to the topic.

3/3 on on the trolling score. You win.

PS: I accept your apology. Don't do it again tho.

No, I didn't need to read the details to know that redesigning raids for level 20's is an idea I disagree with:

In case you missed it the FIRST time, here it is broken down simply:

A) Raids ARE still run at level
B) Epic Raids are NOT too difficult... not even "a bit too difficult"
C) Lower level raids are a learning experience

You're right Mr. Founder, by your definition of troll, which appears to be: anyone who doesn't agree with me and doesn't think this game is about me!, I am one. I will remember in the future that only people agreeing with you are permitted to post in your threads.

maddmatt70
03-12-2011, 02:28 PM
I do not really see the point of rebalancing the old raids unless they upgrade the loot. If they rebalance Titan for instance I still will not run it at any level because the loot stinks other then the chattering ring. Raids like tempest spine and Titan seem like a waste to rebalance for this reason. It also seems kind of like a waste to rebalance raids for level 20 that are epic because why would not a player just run the epic version? The reaver raid would be a fun one if they rebalanced it because some of the loot is still relevant to people and it is not epic. So I would just rebalance the non epic raids that still have relevant loot like the Abbot, Reaver, and Shroud.

Edit: rebalancing the loot seems like alot of work along with the raid as well. I am kind of a fan of just make new content.

cpito
03-12-2011, 02:36 PM
Let me ask you tho:
When you were leveling your last 1-20 character (say one done since the cap was already increased to 20), which raids did you run at level, and how succesfull were you on said runs? Did the groups fill fast?

Finished TRing a toon last month.

Chrono at level, groups filled quickly (normal and hard), every objective was completed, runs went smoothly.

Tempest Spine... same as Chrono except without every objective complete

Dragon took a little longer to fill but we short manned it at level and had fun kicking her giant red dragon buttocks.

DQ, Titan and Abbot... see Dragon without the red dragon buttocks

Reaver... shortmanned this one with 5 at level on the previous toon I capped, a non TR cleric

In Shroud, HoX and VoD by lvl 17 successfully

In ToD by lvl 19 successfully

Talon_Moonshadow
03-12-2011, 02:38 PM
All but Titan and Reaver have high lvl difficulty options.

Shade
03-12-2011, 02:56 PM
TS, Too many to count, of course it was successful

Dragon, three times, level 10,11,12. Did with around 8 people each time. Successful

Titan, once, level 10. 7 People. Successful

ATDQ, twice, levels 13 and 14, 9~11 people, don't remember. Succesful


So aside from tempest spine. (which i can understand is frequently run given it's good xp and lack of a timer)

In your history of DDO gaming (your joing date indicates you've been playing around 5 years - same as me)
You've ran a total of 2 at level lowbie raids. (1 dragon, 1 titan, rest are done above level and probably not very challenging)

And your have very strong opinions about them , that you feel are just as valid as, say people who migth run a raid 20+ times at high level?

Interesting thoughts. IMO it takes more then 1 run to get a good feel for how lowbie raids go. Don't you agree it's posible given how few you've run that maybe you had some luck and got in an better then average group?

Personally I believe raid content is designed to be run more then once per player.

Sure there's epic. But for some people, epic isn't of interest. There should be more options.
And for some raids, epic isn't of interest to even people who love epic, due to poor design.. Example would be von5 - almost always get run on normal due to poor rewards to time ratio, and the fact you can get in von6 epic without it.

Personally I've ran dragon at level10 - during the mod1 era aproximately 40 times. It was great to be able to run with players of all skill levels and do normal/hard/elite depending on the group, and enjoy great raid loot without having to resort to months of epic farming/crafting. Same goes for titan and others.

Recently ive done a few at lvl on my TRs, and they were all train wrecks, and none of the pug players I found at that level had the required levle of knowledge of the game to offer any kind of worthwhile contribution. so I just solo'd the raids while 11 players watched me.. I tried to direct them on how to help, but givne they were so new to the game, they just could not comprehend the tactics I was trying to explain.
Didn't make any sense to me... Just too complex for players so new to te game..

I mean new players can get to lvl10 in under a week these days, and they barely know how to cast spells, let alone perform complex tasks like coordinating CC spells, and timed kills on pillars.

Braegan
03-12-2011, 02:57 PM
Some good ideas here!
A compromise to still keep the level of the raids as originally intended would be to simply add the level 20 difficulty for hard / elite.
Lets face it, people might want to run von 5-6 at level 11ish after flagging, but very few will take the time to do it on hard or elite on that level. So bump the level of the old raids to 20ish if run on hard / elite, and implement most of the changes you suggested and we've got a system that works great for everyone!

I'd be more onboard with this. Kinda of like Devils' Assualt scaling on difficulty. (von/titan lvl 10 norm, lvl 15 hard, lvl 18 or 20 elite). Would probably help out the TR lack of interesting xp at higher levels at little bit to get a 1st time run of a hard von5 xp, etc.

I would also suggest leave the loot as is. The base items don't need reworking IMO. Just add in chance of +3 tomes on hard and elite setting and I'd be ok with it. Could do additional rare drops like a FRDS for elite velah, not sure what could be added with the others.

sirgog
03-12-2011, 05:53 PM
I'd be more onboard with this. Kinda of like Devils' Assualt scaling on difficulty. (von/titan lvl 10 norm, lvl 15 hard, lvl 18 or 20 elite). Would probably help out the TR lack of interesting xp at higher levels at little bit to get a 1st time run of a hard von5 xp, etc.



I'd rather this suggestion, especially for the 'forgotten raids' like Titan, hard/elite VON5 and hard/elite Titan preraid.

This adds level 20 content to the game and at the same time keeps the Normal mode of these raids available for people that like to run them at-level (which usually you only get to do once or twice per character before you outlevel the raid)

Raids could then drop the original loot on all difficulties, but on Hard and Elite they would also drop tokens (Tempest's Spine Hero's Commendation on Hard; Tempest's Spine Elite Commendation on Elite) with a ~20% drop rate.

Base Item + 2 Hero's Commendations from the same raid = 'Tier 2' version of item
Tier 2 item + 5 Elite Commendations from that raid = Tier 3 version
Base Item + 6 Elite Commendations = Tier 3 version.

For example, the Sword of Shadows would remain 2d6 +5 on Normal. The Tier 2 version would be minimum level 16 and 3d6+6, Tier 3 would be min level 20 and 4d6+7, and any version could be used as an ingredient for the Epic version.

Raids could then be tuned to be accessible (but challenging) at-level to casual players on Normal; tough at the new level on Hard for casual players (beatable but not on the first try, like Shroud Normal is for a level 17 group); and Elite would be about as tough for level 20s as VoD elite is.

jwdaniels
03-12-2011, 06:02 PM
If only there was a special difficulty available for groups of level 20 characters...

Maybe just fix epic and make epic versions of all of the raids available?

ddobard1
03-12-2011, 06:05 PM
End game is really old nowadays...

chodelord
03-12-2011, 09:29 PM
heh or if the were obnoxious they could change dq and von 6 so that you cant open epic unless you passed the flagging quests on epic :)

KillEveryone
03-12-2011, 09:51 PM
I'd rather see more new high level raids rather than rebalance the existing ones to cater to lvl 20s. The DEV time spent on this suggestion could be used to fix epic to be more fun or be used to create more new content.

The reason the low level raids are ran mostly by lvl 20s is because someone is looking for that rare drop which is unlikely to appear when you run them at level. If named drops were not so rare, I could see having these things set up for level 20s, but named drops can take 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 + runs before something drops.

Many flagging quests are set at lower levels. To make things fit right, you'd have to also rebalance VoN flagging quests, Quests that get you into Twilight Forge, Sands quests. Abbot quests wouldn't need changed because of the amount of XP you can get just trying to get that last sigil so people can easily out level this raid anyway and I think I've had more trouble getting a group together just because people don't really want to run it as much as some other raids, much like Titan isn't run too much. Reaver is just so easy even at level, you really have to change the whole quest to actually rebalance it even for running it at level.

I like doing the various raids at level on my way to cap. I'm in it more for the XP than loot anyway.

Even still, hopefully epic is fixed to be more fun. Once they fix epic, most of those raids will probably have that difficulty attached anyway so that will just solve your problem because why would a lvl 20 run any of the raids with epic attached at any other level. The likelyhood of you getting the loot you want is increased in epic and you have the shards, seals, and scrolls that you'll eventually want to upgrade your loot.

VoN 5 is run on casual by lvl 20s because there isn't a good drop rate in there to make it worth running on any other difficulty and people want to get to the real chest.

DQ1 is run on casual by lvl 20s because there isn't a good drop rate in there to make it worth running on any other difficulty and people want to get to the real chest.

They just need to fix epic.

ArkoHighStar
03-12-2011, 10:01 PM
If only there was a special difficulty available for groups of level 20 characters...

Maybe just fix epic and make epic versions of all of the raids available?

This I imagine would be the best long term goal.

I am sorry but basically making all raids lvl 20 would be extremely dumb financially.

I hate to say it but there is a reason that Turbine did low level content first after F2P came out. The reason is simple hardcore vets are no longer the majority of the population, in fact it isn't even close. So there are many players just leveling up now that are running raids at level and tons of guilds that don't have a ton of raid geared lvl 20's anymore. Basically shutting out the majority of players to satisfy a minority will always be looked at as a bad idea no matter how good it looks to the person who wants it.

Turbine has stated 2 things
-Epic is being revisited(I don't know what that means, but it is an admission that like most of us they agree that its broken to some degree)
-This year will focus on hig level content(update 8 is lvl 15-16, my bet is update 10 will be lvl 17-18) and by the next major release(11) we will see our lvl 20 content, or the challenge system which has up to lvl 25 built inThey have indicated there will be a high level raid this year, we just don't know when)

Malison
03-13-2011, 12:38 AM
I'd challenge you to take a full group of new level12 players into Titan and win before they all gave up and decided to gain expierence elsewhere. It just would not happen. This raid, and others are complex enough that they take serisous dedication to figure out and complete, enough that youd likely be lvl20 long before you figure out the correct strategy. (with no one who has had lead it succsssfully before aiding you, as would most likely be the case if you set the level range to 9-12)
Agreed. Especially for Titan. But in my experience, if you take a group of level 12 players, most of which aren't new, they'll do just fine most of the time.


Is it really important to learn how to go into a lowbie raid and wait hours for it to fill, only to wipe horribly to continue to get better as a player?

I think so. We, as players, are far too accustomed to winning raids. We run them on normal so we can win, get our loot, and come back to farm it in 3 days. We don't run them on hard/elite because we don't want a challenge. When was the last time you saw a high-level raid run H/E, not counting guild runs?
Players need to run lowbie raids and fail miserably because it's the only way they'll realize their toon sucks or they don't play well, and so they can get used to the idea of challenging themselves.


When you were leveling your last 1-20 character (say one done since the cap was already increased to 20), which raids did you run at level, and how succesfull were you on said runs? Did the groups fill fast?
Are you a play with no plans to get to level20, yet very interested in running raids?
Couldn't tell if this was a question to one specific person or open-ended, so I'll add my 2cp:
Chronoscope 3x, 2 successes.
Tempest Spine 1x, success.
Velah, 1x, success.
ADQ, 3man, three fails then a success.
Stormreaver, 2x, once in party and once solo, success.

These numbers just from my most recent toon's leveling.

The Chrono groups I joined half full along with my brother and we didn't have to wait too long after that. TS is TS, not much to say. Dragon we had to wait a while for. There was no shortage of dps toons, but we couldn't get anyone who could hit the wis runes to join for a long time. ADQ we didn't wait at all, just put up an LFM running part 1 and went with what we had. Reaver is reaver, not much to say there either.

No high-level raids were run at level because it's near impossible to get a group for them.

Not much of a sample size, but I was leveling pretty quickly at that point.

--
I'm strongly against making raids level 20.
(1) arguing that balancing it around level 20's capabilities doesn't do much for me. Consider epic raids. Ridiculously hard, unless you run with people who're experienced in them, at which point they become easier than pug shrouds.
(2) if you want a challenge, it's easy enough to get one. Run your shroud or vod on elite instead of normal. Suddenly you can't just take the first 11 to hit the lfm.
(3)
I mean new players can get to lvl10 in under a week these days, and they barely know how to cast spells, let alone perform complex tasks like coordinating CC spells, and timed kills on pillars.
How will they learn if raids are 20? I'd much rather see terribly inexperienced players learning these raids while they're lower-level. I'd like to think that someone who's leveled to 20 has at least some game skills, not that they're just now learning the game.

I could support raids being made to scale like devil assault. I like how that one can be run at many stages of character development. It makes me sad to finish flagging for VoN and then only be able to run it once before I'm out of the level range. VoN5 is sick, sick xp.

I like your idea of upgradeable raid loot. I see this tying in very well with level-scaling as a way to keep your loot useful. It would also give incentive to run quests at level: you want to have your base items ready so when you can handle Hard you'll be ready to upgrade when your [ingredients] drop.
--


If only there was a special difficulty available for groups of level 20 characters...
Maybe just fix epic and make epic versions of all of the raids available?
This.


I'd rather see more new high level raids rather than rebalance the existing ones to cater to lvl 20s. The DEV time spent on this suggestion could be used to fix epic to be more fun or be used to create more new content.

The reason the low level raids are ran mostly by lvl 20s is because someone is looking for that rare drop which is unlikely to appear when you run them at level. If named drops were not so rare, I could see having these things set up for level 20s, but named drops can take 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 + runs before something drops.

They just need to fix epic.
This too.

FlyingTurtle
03-13-2011, 01:46 AM
I'd rather this suggestion, especially for the 'forgotten raids' like Titan, hard/elite VON5 and hard/elite Titan preraid.

This adds level 20 content to the game and at the same time keeps the Normal mode of these raids available for people that like to run them at-level (which usually you only get to do once or twice per character before you outlevel the raid)

Raids could then drop the original loot on all difficulties, but on Hard and Elite they would also drop tokens (Tempest's Spine Hero's Commendation on Hard; Tempest's Spine Elite Commendation on Elite) with a ~20% drop rate.

Base Item + 2 Hero's Commendations from the same raid = 'Tier 2' version of item
Tier 2 item + 5 Elite Commendations from that raid = Tier 3 version
Base Item + 6 Elite Commendations = Tier 3 version.

For example, the Sword of Shadows would remain 2d6 +5 on Normal. The Tier 2 version would be minimum level 16 and 3d6+6, Tier 3 would be min level 20 and 4d6+7, and any version could be used as an ingredient for the Epic version.

Raids could then be tuned to be accessible (but challenging) at-level to casual players on Normal; tough at the new level on Hard for casual players (beatable but not on the first try, like Shroud Normal is for a level 17 group); and Elite would be about as tough for level 20s as VoD elite is.

That's it. Sorta. Because you'll still have the problem of level 20s steamrollering over the normal difficulty for twink gear for TRs, and the whole problem of waiting to be overlevel before running through it like a tissue paper. Maybe link the item drop rate to the CR of the group completing, as well as having those tiers. Then, completing at level really becomes a wonderful achievement.

Aelonwy
03-13-2011, 01:45 PM
I like the idea of scaling difficulty like Devil Assault, scaling the loot too seems neat... don't know how much work that would be to implement. But leave the base (Normal) level of the raids where they are... VON's great for leveling, Tempest is just FUN! I would be saddened to have to wait to 20 to do either.

Shade
03-17-2011, 06:56 AM
I like the idea of scaling difficulty like Devil Assault, scaling the loot too seems neat... don't know how much work that would be to implement. But leave the base (Normal) level of the raids where they are... VON's great for leveling, Tempest is just FUN! I would be saddened to have to wait to 20 to do either.

The idea isn't to make you wait until 20. Thats what epic currently does.

lvl17+ should be able to complete most raids on normal at least.

The idea of scaling normal/hard/elite to levels, has the exact same issue epic does.. It leaves no room for players of multiple skill levels, and ultimately would fail much the same as epic has because of it.


VON's great for leveling
The general concensus is that a quest that provides 1000/xp per minute or better is a "great quest for leveling" . Show me a single at-lvl von5/6 completion that provides that much XP per minute. Youd be hard pressed to do it. It's not a good leveling quest what so ever. VoN1-4 are, but im not suggesting they be changed.


Tempest is just FUN!
It isn't for me, and the XP per minute is always quite poor as well, but I can accept that some players like to do it at lvl, as if there is 1 raid that shows up at-lvl the most in the LFMs, its definetely this one.
Perhaps Tempest spine should just become a hybrid then.
Normal/hard/elite = as now, no timer.
Epic = lvl20, 3 day timer.. Changed to work per my suggestion.