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View Full Version : Petition to reduce TR grind



Urjak
03-06-2011, 05:10 PM
Being on my 3rd TR life i need to say the grind simply is no fun. I have all those awesome build ideas in my head and would like to try them all out, but it simply feels like such a wait to create new toons for all those ideas when i could "just" TR into them, gathering more past lifes on the way.

IMO TRing could be so much fun, experimenting with tons of different build ideas. Just think of all the possibilities! But instead once u reach mid to high levels the fun turns into simple grind and i m already thinking of quiting because its simply no fun at all to be forced to run one and the same quest one bazillion times because of lack of content to gather enough xp for your next level.

So PLEASE reduce the grind (reduce xp needed per level while TRing) in order to turn a distastefull grind into happy build experimentation =)

And to counter arguments like "oh my god there will now be hundreds of completitionists around":
No there wont lvling so often to 20 still would need a lot of time (just not as much as it needs now) and second: Would that really be such a terrible disaster if there where a few more of them around? I don't think it would be so terrible i mean honestly ... who doesn't like to run with well built and well equipped toons? ;p

Hendrik
03-06-2011, 05:12 PM
No need, TR is a choice.

Don't like the grind, then don't do it.

Shyver
03-06-2011, 05:18 PM
No need to reduce the xp cost. They just need to add two Gianthold sized adventure pack for levels 17-20.

bobbryan2
03-06-2011, 05:26 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing an xp reduction on life 3+

krud
03-06-2011, 05:31 PM
Before TR there was this thing called "REROLL". If you wanted to remake a charcater you had to lose everything you worked for and start all over. Now you get to keep all the bound gear you've accumulated (except any tomes eaten), gain even more build points, and a free feat, and you still want more? Be glad you don't have to grind all that gear all over again. Pretend it IS a brand new character except with free gear, not the same character you wish were already level 20.

protokon
03-06-2011, 05:32 PM
double TRing is easy, for those who actually put the effort into researching how to level efficiently
(holding exp, what quests to farm at which level, ect..)

even with the massive exp penalty I still level a double-TR about the same amount of time, if not quicker, than a brand new toon.

not signed. stop asking for easy-buttons.

SynalonEtuul
03-06-2011, 05:36 PM
I think there should just be more quests for high levels, rather than a lower amount of x.p. required.

Monkey_Archer
03-06-2011, 05:55 PM
Currently you need ~2mil xp to get to level 15, then another ~2mil xp to get those last 5 levels. There isn't really a lack of content in the game that would give reason to lower the xp requirements. The real issue IMO, is that 75% of the quests in the game (level 1-15) only apply to half of your total xp required. Of course there are plenty of strategies to deal with this (holding levels, grinding content over-level, etc) none of which are very fun though.

So instead of an easy button for TRs, I would rather see some of the xp required at high levels redirected to earlier levels. For example, re-allocate 500k xp from level 16+ to the first 15 levels. So the last 5 levels would only require 1.5mil xp (a huge reduction in boring grind time) and the first 15 levels would instead require 2.5mil xp (giving reason to actually run half the content in the game you would usually skip) leaving the "half-way" mark around level 12.

Blank_Zero
03-06-2011, 08:32 PM
Currently you need ~2mil xp to get to level 15, then another ~2mil xp to get those last 5 levels. There isn't really a lack of content in the game that would give reason to lower the xp requirements. The real issue IMO, is that 75% of the quests in the game (level 1-15) only apply to half of your total xp required. Of course there are plenty of strategies to deal with this (holding levels, grinding content over-level, etc) none of which are very fun though.

So instead of an easy button for TRs, I would rather see some of the xp required at high levels redirected to earlier levels. For example, re-allocate 500k xp from level 16+ to the first 15 levels. So the last 5 levels would only require 1.5mil xp (a huge reduction in boring grind time) and the first 15 levels would instead require 2.5mil xp (giving reason to actually run half the content in the game you would usually skip) leaving the "half-way" mark around level 12.

YES.

The XP needed at fist life is pretty much linear if you graph it.

2nd life, and then 3rd life even more so, the graph becomes much more Exponential, to the point where getting passed 14-15 either time becomes more of a chore than fun. I've contemplated rerolling my Double TR more than once because of this. It's just not as fun as it should be for a game. I don't mind having to grind out the XP. Heck, the amount of quests is good enough to get there with time yes. But why the sudden upswing in xp/level after 10?

Cyr
03-07-2011, 09:47 AM
As evidenced by the large number of TR related threads various posters believe there are lots of ways to make the TR experience more enjoyable and in more then a few cases more challenging.

As for me, I think the current game provides very little incentive to run quests on a high difficulty when leveling and lots of incentives to do the opposite on a TR. My solution to this issue was an alternative leveling structure for TR's (you could still level in the original manner also) that relied upon elite completions of quests at their level to increase the average challenge of content that TR's undertake an in return let them level faster for taking on more challenging content.

Templarion
03-07-2011, 09:55 AM
Doing my 4th TR and I have to say the grind is just good.

They will never do quests that are so hard to do that some people cannot complete them so they must keep quests easy and require lots of repetetition. That way everyone has a chance to be TR but not everyone has endurance to do it.

TR is not for all and it is not supposed to be for all.

bryanmeerkat
03-07-2011, 09:57 AM
No need to reduce the xp cost. They just need to add two Gianthold sized adventure pack for levels 17-20.

Bryanmeerkat Likes This .

Uska
03-07-2011, 10:07 AM
No need, TR is a choice.

Don't like the grind, then don't do it.

The thing is for the first two Tr's you get more than you do for any others that follow so there should either be more gain for TR 3+ or a reduction in the xp cost for them

Nerveya
03-07-2011, 10:09 AM
IMO TRing could be so much fun, experimenting with tons of different build ideas. Just think of all the possibilities! But instead once u reach mid to high levels the fun turns into simple grind and i m already thinking of quiting because its simply no fun at all to be forced to run one and the same quest one bazillion times because of lack of content to gather enough xp for your next level.

I don't think it would be so terrible i mean honestly ... who doesn't like to run with well built and well equipped toons? ;p

You can experiment with -plenty- of builds without TR'ing twice. Most, if not all, builds can be achieved with a first or second life character which are JOKES to level. The only thing that is limited is gear and if you want to grind out "tons of different build ideas" I'm sure you can take the time to grind out some basic raid items.

Completionist is meant to be for the very committed. If you want it, you have to work for it a LOT. Giving it to more people just because -they want it- doesn't exactly fit it's original purpose. As for those that suggested a exp reduction on the 4th TR and later, why? It's -meant- to be hard and difficult and for the very few. "You win DDO" may have been a joke comment at first, but by god it still holds some weight in that you are one of the very dedicated grinders that put forth the time and effort to achieve something for yourself. No build -requires- completionist nor does the game. It works fine as is.

Plus, requesting new things such as these totally takes their attention away from important things... like, you know, new content that doesn't suck. Maybe Epics that can't be solo'd by first life drow sorcs with 300 HP and korthos gear. Or the host of holes, errors, known issues, and imbalances that effect EVERYONE and not just TR'd characters who got bored of the grind. Turbine should be working on things that -need- to be fixed or were promised to us long ago, yet not implemented, not just something to make your life "a little easier". Think about that a little and reconsider ^_~

And who says that first lives can't be well built and well equipped? :D IMO, TR'd characters are just as hit-or-miss in the competence department as regular toons because you can just BUY TRs now or go solo Fens or House P "Epics". Anyone else remember when you had to grind through VoN and Sands for tokens? Yeah, not for the people with a credit card or a caster! Not now anyway.

And believe me, I have plenty of TRs to know what you're feeling. Sometimes you just need to take a break from it all and play a joke character or level up a first life. Maybe start another project and come back to it after you have lost the will to level that TR again. Gotta put time into things in order for it to shine :)

So yeah, not signed. It's been said many times before: Your need to TR "a little faster" isn't really that important or gamebreaking. Sorry :(

jwdaniels
03-07-2011, 10:10 AM
The thing is for the first two Tr's you get more than you do for any others that follow so there should either be more gain for TR 3+ or a reduction in the xp cost for them

Or just stop after the second TR unless you want completionist or additional past life feats.

Uska
03-07-2011, 02:47 PM
Or just stop after the second TR unless you want completionist or additional past life feats.

Doesnt fix the problem and even completionist's cost should be adjusted the feat for that should be free the 3rd and later tr should cost more than base lvling but less than even the 1st tr as you arent gaining any more stat points.

justagame
03-07-2011, 03:01 PM
No need to reduce the xp cost. They just need to add two Gianthold sized adventure pack for levels 17-20.

This. There's a benefit to TR, so I have no problem with a higher xp cost. But I find TR is an unpleasant grind for 2 reasons:

1. Once you get past levels 14-15, xp is scarce. There simply aren't enough quests. There are three level 15 quests. Three. Level 16? The Vale, that's it. You have to run the better xp quests repeatedly. IMO, it causes too much focus on xp efficiency, and less focus on enjoying the journey back to 20. Instead of enjoying playing a toon you've spent a lot of time on, you're an xp-accountant. You loathe the idea of wasting xp on forgone optionals, (gasp) deaths, or quests run above your own level (because you'll need them later).

2. Because of the last point above -- you hesitate to run quests above your level, because the scarcity of quests means you'll NEED that xp later, you find yourself constantly running quests at level (or 1 level under). However, you're a TR. You have better stats, you have all the best raid gear, and you have past life benefits. Running quests at level is EASY for most TRs. It doesn't feel challenging. You could handle the Vale quests at level 14, but don't dare run them until you get to 16 or higher, because you fear running out of xp. But you're not challenging yourself -- making it feel more boring, and like more of a grind.

Adding more quests in the 15-19 range (note -- adding epics doesn't address the need for high level quests!), would alleviate this problem greatly. There would still be the high price of TR (in xp), but with more xp available, it would be much more enjoyable to play, and feel like less of a grind.

Khanyth
03-07-2011, 03:01 PM
Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cyr
03-07-2011, 03:22 PM
Or just stop after the second TR unless you want completionist or additional past life feats.

It is not logical game design to ignore the incentive structure based upon 'if you don't like it don't do it'.

The incentive structure for TR's is all screwed up. It encourages running easy content over more challenging content. It also provides lesser and lesser benefits as it progresses (with one blip in that at completionist, but this is not a huge blip as completionist still requires a feat investment to use). Even if TR's granted +2 builds points and the past life feat for every TR you would still be getting less benefits each time you TR.

Asketes
03-07-2011, 03:23 PM
1st TR: 3.25mill

2nd tr and beyond: 4.2mill


to me seems quite fair..

the last 200k sometimes goes a little slow and tedious.


BUT with all the 14+ content on it's way i think we'll be just fine.


my vote: leave it where it is. TR'ing is a choice, i love it.

JayDubya
03-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Off the top of my head, if they added a 'TR' difficulty past Elite, and then added the ability for TRs to run Epic content at level 19, I would imagine that would mitigate the 'oh **** I ran out of XP' problem.

Even better, IMO, would be if these bonuses were applied to the 'rarely run' quests.

Isolani
03-07-2011, 03:59 PM
Currently you need ~2mil xp to get to level 15, then another ~2mil xp to get those last 5 levels. There isn't really a lack of content in the game that would give reason to lower the xp requirements. The real issue IMO, is that 75% of the quests in the game (level 1-15) only apply to half of your total xp required. Of course there are plenty of strategies to deal with this (holding levels, grinding content over-level, etc) none of which are very fun though.

So instead of an easy button for TRs, I would rather see some of the xp required at high levels redirected to earlier levels. For example, re-allocate 500k xp from level 16+ to the first 15 levels. So the last 5 levels would only require 1.5mil xp (a huge reduction in boring grind time) and the first 15 levels would instead require 2.5mil xp (giving reason to actually run half the content in the game you would usually skip) leaving the "half-way" mark around level 12.

Agree with this...although I wouldn't complain if they lowered the xp required for 2+ TR's either. The xp is so loaded into the late levels, L18 and L19 are just awful. And as you say, a lot of lower level quests get skipped up til about L11 or 12 because there's far more xp than you need in the early levels. Heck, I usually skip shadow crypt even because you have Jungle of Khyber at the same level and it's more fun to me. I guess if I were smart I would do both and bank a bunch off of shadow crypt, but you really don't even need to bank that early on.

So anyway, evening out the xp through the levels would be nice. Or as others have said, another adv pack in the 17-19 range (with good xp!) would be ok too just for some variety, but a new adv pack doesn't reduce the late level grind any. Just gives the grind some new scenery. Seems easier to just change the xp curve than make a new adv pack though.

Part of the problem is that a lot of the best xp quests are before L15, so your xp requirement is ramping up while the xp from quests is getting worse. The higher xp requirement the last few levels would make a lot more sense if high level quests actually gave better xp than L9 quests, which they don't. There's a few high xp/min quests at L18/19 (Raiding the Giants Vault, Mining for Ancient Secrets, etc) but they are short and you don't get big chunks of xp like you do from VON3, Shadow Crypt, Wiz King, etc.