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View Full Version : Why only one summoned creature at a time



macubrae
03-04-2011, 02:31 PM
It may have been discussed and explained, but if it was, I missed it. Why are we limmited to one summoned creature? if it's coding, okay. If it tips the scales in the balance of power, I understand. Personally, I believe a conjuror should get an additional creature every four levels, to a twentieth level maximum of five. Necromancers could be similar, and to a lesser extent rangers. An arcane archer with three wolves would be awesome. It could also work well with the upcoming, hopefully, druids. Shapechange into a wolf and run with the pack.
They could have there own limits. For example; a tenth level arcane could have either a single summon V, two summon III's, or three summon I's. At seventeenth level one could have one summon IX, two summon VII's, three summon V's, four summon III's, or five summon I's. With buffs, summon augments, and enhancements it could be really fun. If the devs want to be strict, they could limit higher level use of hirelings or six second concentration checks.
It would help toons that like to solo, or who have had bad experiences with PUGs. Heck, with the AI working like it does, rounding them up for a big fight might be as hard as the fight itself. An epic necro with two skeletal archers, two warriors, and a skeletal mage would truly be EPIC. As would a swarm of air elementals or pride of lions.
Honestly, I don't need five summoned creatures, but two would be nice.

Lerincho
03-04-2011, 02:33 PM
Actually summoned monsters was changed from being able to have multiple to only one sometime around Mod 5 and New player experience time frame. Reasoning? Something being an unintended occurrance. Honestly? Probably reducing lag.

Wizzly_Bear
03-04-2011, 02:39 PM
Why? Because Turbine hates Wizzly. Used to be able to get 20-30 summons at once.
And I call bs on lag - I never had any more with them than I did without them

Ganolyn
03-04-2011, 02:40 PM
Actually summoned monsters was changed from being able to have multiple to only one sometime around Mod 5 and New player experience time frame. Reasoning? Something being an unintended occurrance. Honestly? Probably reducing lag.


Actually the reason was that they found that when you have multiple summons at one time they start to unionize and they didn't want the proletariat getting uppity. :)

hityawithastick
03-04-2011, 02:41 PM
Actually the reason was that they found that when you have multiple summons at one time they start to unionize and they didn't want the proletariat getting uppity. :)

Nobody messes with the union! :D

Lerincho
03-04-2011, 02:43 PM
Actually the reason was that they found that when you have multiple summons at one time they start to unionize and they didn't want the proletariat getting uppity. :)

I have never said Turbine was sane in their reasonings.

Robai
03-04-2011, 03:36 PM
/signed

I would like to be able to summon this way:
- it can be only one summoned monster of the same type from the same caster

For example, 5th level Human being 5th level Wizard can summon up to 5 monsters (if no cookies, etc.):
1) Monster I (available to Wizard lvl 1)
2) Monster II (available to Wizard lvl 3)
3) Monster III (available to Wizard lvl 5)
4) Iron Defender (available to human lvl 1 with enchantment)
5) Steel Defender (available to human lvl 4 with enchantment)

And this would make Racial Summons meaningful (if, additionally, those Defenders would be fixed, i.e. wouldn't affect friends or caster himself, i.e. wouldn't knock them down).

EDIT:
Or this way:
- it can be only up to 3 summoned monsters summoned by the same caster:
1) one Class summon
2) one Racial summon
3) one from other sources (like cookies)

PwnHammer40K
03-04-2011, 03:44 PM
A "Summoner" Enhancement line that increased the cap on summons per tier would be great.

i.e. Summoner I @2AP: +2 Summons at the same time. Summoner II @3AP: +3 and so on.

I would love to try out a summoning-spec'ed build - preferably as AHEM Druid :D - with Augmented Summoning and whatnot.

Alektronic
03-04-2011, 04:34 PM
Not to patronize, but you can have multiple summons (up to 7 max, not including charmed minions possible). Create undead = 4, PM skellie= 1, spell/racial summon = 1, vulkoor summon =1.

I prefer control monster/person + control undead, myself, when I'm in a summoning mood, but to each his own :cool:.

ocifferdave
07-26-2011, 06:18 PM
Not to patronize, but you can have multiple summons (up to 7 max, not including charmed minions possible). Create undead = 4, PM skellie= 1, spell/racial summon = 1, vulkoor summon =1.

I prefer control monster/person + control undead, myself, when I'm in a summoning mood, but to each his own :cool:.

Create Undead changed recently: only 1 creature at a time and it replaces your Summon Monster on the battlefield. Question: Does Vulkoor's Avatar replace a Summoned Monster too now?

Aelonwy
07-26-2011, 11:47 PM
As some kind of Prestige Enhancement Line for Casters:

Requires Feats: Augment Summoning
Spell Focus Conjuration (Because almost every PrE has a less useful feat)

Tier 1: Level 4 Apprentice Conjurer (1AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 1st level summons.

Tier 2: Level 6 (2AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 3: Level 8 (2AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 4: Level 10 (3AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 5: Level 12 Journeyman Conjurer (3AP)
Requires: Greater Spell Focus Conjuration
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 5th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 5th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 6: Level 14 (4AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 6th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 6th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 5th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 5th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 7: Level 16 (4AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 7th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 7th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 6th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 6th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 5th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 5th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 8: Level 18 Master Conjurer (5AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 8th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 8th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 7th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 7th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 6th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 6th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 5th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 5th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Improved Augmented Summoning: Your summoned creatures, charmed minions, and hirelings have +6 to all ability scores, further increased health, increased AC, saves, and increased fortification. Replaces does not stack with the bonuses of Augment Summoning feat.


How does that look?

ocifferdave
07-28-2011, 09:29 AM
As some kind of Prestige Enhancement Line for Casters:

Requires Feats: Augment Summoning
Spell Focus Conjuration (Because almost every PrE has a less useful feat)

Tier 1: Level 4 Apprentice Conjurer (1AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 1st level summons.

Tier 2: Level 6 (2AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 3: Level 8 (2AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 4: Level 10 (3AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 5: Level 12 Journeyman Conjurer (3AP)
Requires: Greater Spell Focus Conjuration
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 5th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 5th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 6: Level 14 (4AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 6th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 6th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 5th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 5th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 7: Level 16 (4AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 7th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 7th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 6th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 6th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 5th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 5th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Tier 8: Level 18 Master Conjurer (5AP)
Able to summon 1 extra creature of 8th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of two 8th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 7th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of three 7th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 6th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a total of four 6th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 5th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 5th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 4th level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 4th level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 3rd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 3rd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 2nd level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 2nd level summons.
Able to summon 1 additional extra creature of 1st level Summon Creature Spell available to class for a MAX total of five 1st level summons. May only have one summon creature spell active at once.

Improved Augmented Summoning: Your summoned creatures, charmed minions, and hirelings have +6 to all ability scores, further increased health, increased AC, saves, and increased fortification. Replaces does not stack with the bonuses of Augment Summoning feat.


How does that look?

Dang, that looks amazing. It's simple, it gets us more of what we want. It utilizes what is already there (we got augment summons so lets have an improved augment summons, lets use our Spell Focus Conjuration to unlock some summoning enhancements, lets give them another pre existing summon creature. I want to play this toon!

Gkar
07-28-2011, 09:34 AM
I bet there are stilll a bunch of people with a collection of rockie clickies from back when the level cap was 16 and you could summon your own rock army.

ocifferdave
07-28-2011, 10:06 AM
I bet there are stilll a bunch of people with a collection of rockie clickies from back when the level cap was 16 and you could summon your own rock army.

Never heard of the rock clickies. Awesome.

Wish: See a pic of a rock clickie summon.

Corwinsky
07-28-2011, 12:17 PM
The conjuring part in this game is indeed pretty bad.
Pets are so weak and create so much agro problem that no one uses them in elite high level or epic quests.
Their physical DPS is also very bad.
When not 1 arcane after level 10 (some new players might take it at low level before realizing how useless it is) has the augment summoning feat it means the whole thing is completely unbalanced.


For one, pets should scale with the diff of the dungeon to be as strong as if they just were an ennemy mob you fought against.
See rats in epic Snitch, water elementals in epic Tide Turn, etc
With the augment feat they should be like an orange boss.

Otherwise a whole line of specialization for casters is basically like if it wasn't there.

Air elementals are great for levelling, fire and water elementals can be somewhat useful at low levels too in some particular fight and that's pretty much it.

The real tough pets are the mindflayers, beholders and those are not normal summonings.

KillEveryone
07-28-2011, 12:40 PM
Never heard of the rock clickies. Awesome.

Wish: See a pic of a rock clickie summon.

Shroud earth elementals.

Make a bunch of those clickies.

Summon a elemental, switch to another clickie, summon another elemental.......

An army of summoned earth elementals.

ocifferdave
07-28-2011, 12:44 PM
shroud Earth Elementals.

Make A Bunch Of Those Clickies.

Summon A Elemental, Switch To Another Clickie, Summon Another Elemental.......

An Army Of Summoned Earth Elementals.

Aaaaawesome!

KillEveryone
07-28-2011, 12:51 PM
Aaaaawesome!

It doesn't work anymore since the fix.

macubrae
07-28-2011, 02:05 PM
I just figured that since a full group is six characters, five summons sounded right for a solo player. I only see a problem if there are multiple summoners on a quest, or even a raid. Six casters with all of their summons would be 36 toons crammed into one cave or hallway. There was an all FVS shroud run where they all had orthons. If twelve mages with five summons each, thats 72 toons on a raid, that's a bit much.

But what are the chances of that happening... in any case I'd like to be there to see it.

ocifferdave
07-28-2011, 02:17 PM
in any case I'd like to be there to see it.

Me too. Its a long term goal I have to get several summoners into a wilderness area and go for a nice walk around the map...

On a different note...holy cow, Pale Masters use too many APs.

nibel
07-28-2011, 05:41 PM
Actually summoned monsters was changed from being able to have multiple to only one sometime around Mod 5 and New player experience time frame. Reasoning? Something being an unintended occurrance. Honestly? Probably reducing lag.

Probably the same lag occurrence of dungeon alert: Each AI controlled mob need pathing, targeting, and awareness taking server power. And that server load goes up on a quadratic level, instead of linear (X² instead of 2X).

testing1234
07-28-2011, 06:01 PM
not the first time this suggestion has come up and to me it seems that as many as like it same number dislike it for various reasons.

having seen what a army of earth elementals can accomplish im of the opinion either they are OP or they are completely useless with a very thin line to walk for the developers between these.
earth elementals earth grab does not suffer from bad AI pathing and such it instantly applies all the earth grabs on the first enemy that walks into range of the army and no enemy saves against 12+ earties grabb well maybe they do on epic but with 12+ odds are 60% he will roll a 1.

Gremmlynn
07-29-2011, 07:05 AM
Actually the reason was that they found that when you have multiple summons at one time they start to unionize and they didn't want the proletariat getting uppity. :)It wasn't that. It was due to the servers playing with themselves being against company rules.


On that note. If every summons was totally controlled by the summoning player, I'd be all for multiple summons. If it remains as is, controlled by the games AI, then we just end up watching the servers playing the game against themselves.

ocifferdave
07-29-2011, 01:50 PM
I liken this new play style (read "challenge") I'm trying as a tower defence game, where I am the life stone the mobs try to bring down to zero. I hunker down with block and elemental guard as the mobs break upon me while my summons peck them to death (go go Zerg Feind Bat). Then I try and find ways to make it go even smoother (testing grounds is The Kobolds' New Ring Leader on elite, solo).

Doxmaster
07-29-2011, 02:01 PM
why?

Long answer short? Ghoste.

Ssmooth
07-29-2011, 02:05 PM
Where's the screenshots from the players with 10 EarthII shroud weapons??

That's part of the reason....some one should post one though.

Ghoste
08-03-2011, 11:10 PM
Long answer short? Ghoste.
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGf86xNNZYE