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damoose88
03-03-2011, 01:19 PM
Have you ever considered releasing the source code for this game?

Dungeons and Dragons is one of the most popular games among the hacker community, and by releasing the source code to Dungeons and Dragons Online, you would be offering an open invitation to those hackers to come by and develop and improve your game for you. This could inevitably result in ports for multiple operating systems, thereby greatly expanding your market and increasing your opportunity to profit, as well as far more stability, reliability, improved performance, features, and flexibility through the myriad of addons that would be available.

There are only so many of you, but there are legions of programmers all over the world who would love the ability to help develop DDO and, since you already release the client free-of-charge, the free release of the client and source code and a $5-a-month subscription fee for access to your servers should easily allow you to maintain your current profits, if not increase them, while allowing you access to a global development base of elite programmers who develop projects like this for fun.

Not only would this be far less expensive for the end-user (half the cost of a VIP subscription and access to far more dungeons, features, etc. than what is currently available), but it would also offer you a continuous stream of revenue from monthly subscription fees, allowing you to bring more exciting games to the world, with hardly any additional effort on your end.

In my personal opinion, the open-source model could only benefit the company and the users -- after all, look at what the open-source movement has done already and how quickly they have done it.

Memnir
03-03-2011, 01:21 PM
Ah... no.

stainer
03-03-2011, 01:22 PM
Open sores? Is that a divine or arcane spell?

Quarterling
03-03-2011, 01:23 PM
no.bmp

Because bitmaps take up larger amounts of memory.

Khanyth
03-03-2011, 01:24 PM
No.

Really..... no.

GentlemanAndAScholar
03-03-2011, 01:30 PM
Have you ever considered releasing the source code for this game?

I'm a big supporter of OSS and FSF and other Free Software initiatives. However, open-sourcing code for a MMO is bad, bad news. They're a business and this is their product. If they open-source it what's forbidding anyone from opening shop with their own tweaked version of the game? What's forbidding from the "hacker" community to find exploitable code in the game (and not fix it/announce it)? What's forbidding, say, plat sellers to find code paths and botable macros to plat farm the game to its knees? Opening up the source code for multiplayer games is a terrible idea.

damoose88
03-03-2011, 01:43 PM
I'm a big supporter of OSS and FSF and other Free Software initiatives. However, open-sourcing code for a MMO is bad, bad news. They're a business and this is their product. If they open-source it what's forbidding anyone from opening shop with their own tweaked version of the game? What's forbidding from the "hacker" community to find exploitable code in the game (and not fix it/announce it)? What's forbidding, say, plat sellers to find code paths and botable macros to plat farm the game to its knees? Opening up the source code for multiplayer games is a terrible idea.

Everyone else. You're assuming that every single programmer in the world is going to want to exploit this game, when, in fact, most of them want a fun, fair, enjoyable game like everyone else. I'm not saying there won't be some people who will try to exploit it, however, there will be others who won't and who will be able to prevent exploitation. Moreover, the core developers (the company itself) will be the only ones who will decide what code is included and what code won't be included -- no different than the early days of Linux when the hackers developed the code and sent their code to Linus, who would then release the updated source.

As far as someone coming along and opening up shop with their own version of this game -- so what? If a new company enters the market with a better product, and are able to demonstrate the superiority of the product, the people will go to the new company. If someone develops a better version of this game, regardless of whether or not they have access to the source code, people will play that game instead. People switch MMOs all the time because they find a game they like better. If the developers release the source to the game to the players (people who already enjoy playing the game), the players can then develop it and make the game they already enjoy even better.

The company won't be able to charge people to download the client, but they don't do that anyway. Instead, they could charge a small fee for access to the servers, which they do anyway with VIP subscriptions. There is no reason why this model couldn't benefit both the company and the players.

uhgungawa
03-03-2011, 01:46 PM
I'll pass :rolleyes:

krissonofpark
03-03-2011, 01:47 PM
Quite seriously, no.

The last thing anyone would want, especially anyone who had paid any money into this Game, never mind time and effort, would be to allow any kind of license to hack this or any other MMORPG.

GentlemanAndAScholar
03-03-2011, 01:48 PM
As far as someone coming along and opening up shop with their own version of this game -- so what?

Apparently you have never owned your business. You have any idea the investment Turbine has put to keep this game alive? You have any idea how many contractual agreements are on this game to keep the revenues up? Why would they give away their source code? Your argument makes no business sense whatsoever.

Cyr
03-03-2011, 01:48 PM
/not signed

KreepyKritter
03-03-2011, 01:50 PM
Have you ever considered releasing the source code for this game?

Dungeons and Dragons is one of the most popular games among the hacker community, and by releasing the source code to Dungeons and Dragons Online, you would be offering an open invitation to those hackers to come by and develop and improve your game for you.

I think this could have been worded better...

Perhaps... 'Software programmers' or 'Code designers'. But... really? Hackers? You actually used that term in the same sentance as 'Release the source code'... and you were SERIOUS!

Some how I don't think you're going to convince a game developer to release its source code to 'Hackers'.

Qindark
03-03-2011, 01:57 PM
/not signed

There was another game I used to play that released a map editor. I realize this isn't the same as releasing the source code, but I think the premise is the same.

If you owned a server, you could create and load a map. After seeing the efforts put forth by the gaming community (not by me of course) I realized how good the dev team was at making content. I think if you released just the ability for players to create adventures, you'd see the **** start rolling out.

just my 2cp

DaSawks
03-03-2011, 02:05 PM
What the OP meant to say.

"Hi Turbine. Just me talking here but would you mind throwing away your gold mine? We will take good care of it for you."

uhgungawa
03-03-2011, 02:11 PM
There was another game I used to play that released a map editor. I realize this isn't the same as releasing the source code, but I think the premise is the same.



There have been lots of games that did this one way or another. Some worked great, others, ..... well .... not so good.

Even Diablo II had a type of this for a bit (or still has, haven't played it in ages) You had off line play, Battlenet, and Open Battlenet. Battlenet was like here, everything held on their servers. And if you were caught cheating or hacking POOF. Off line and Open Battlenet was kinda no holds bared. Hacked Items maps ect, but they could not go over to the Battlenet server.


So here we have a secure server type game. If it was open sourced the Devs would have to stop working on content and scour over all the incoming codes sent in. Most of these would be tossed out, and the few that weren't would have to be adjusted. This would give the devs 0 time to do any actual development of their own.

damoose88
03-03-2011, 02:13 PM
Apparently you have never owned your business. You have any idea the investment Turbine has put to keep this game alive? You have any idea how many contractual agreements are on this game to keep the revenues up? Why would they give away their source code? Your argument makes no business sense whatsoever.

Why do you only quote one sentence separate from the context of the statement in its entirety? I have never owned my own business but I'm not stupid -- I'm fully aware Turbine has spent a lot of money in this game. However, if someone releases a clone of this game (which has been done legally, just look at Pac-Man and Tetris) and releases the source of the code to that clone, Turbine would run into some very serious problems very quickly. Turbine made a great game, but it still has plenty of room for improvement. WB's acquisition of Turbine gave Turbine access to a very large financial repository, but it can only do so much. The players know what they want, obviously, and by opening up the source, they players can build exactly what they want and submit it directly to Turbine, who would decide whether or not to add it. Open-sourcing does not take away any power from Turbine, it gives a lot of power to the players, and it gives Turbine access to a volunteer labor force that would do Turbine's work for them. This model makes great business sense and it would be even better if it were applied to a game like Dungeons and Dragons.

damoose88
03-03-2011, 02:16 PM
I think this could have been worded better...

Perhaps... 'Software programmers' or 'Code designers'. But... really? Hackers? You actually used that term in the same sentance as 'Release the source code'... and you were SERIOUS!

Some how I don't think you're going to convince a game developer to release its source code to 'Hackers'.

Hacker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker

Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, is a hacker. Richard Stallman, the founder of the FSF, is a hacker. Eric S. Raymond, the founder of the Open-Source Movement, is a hacker. There is a significant difference between hackers and crackers.

damoose88
03-03-2011, 02:18 PM
There have been lots of games that did this one way or another. Some worked great, others, ..... well .... not so good.

Even Diablo II had a type of this for a bit (or still has, haven't played it in ages) You had off line play, Battlenet, and Open Battlenet. Battlenet was like here, everything held on their servers. And if you were caught cheating or hacking POOF. Off line and Open Battlenet was kinda no holds bared. Hacked Items maps ect, but they could not go over to the Battlenet server.


So here we have a secure server type game. If it was open sourced the Devs would have to stop working on content and scour over all the incoming codes sent in. Most of these would be tossed out, and the few that weren't would have to be adjusted. This would give the devs 0 time to do any actual development of their own.

Canonical seems to be able to develop their own code, while reviewing submitted code, very easily, and Ubuntu (operating systems are FAR more complex than games) is among the best Linux distros available.

Slyphan
03-03-2011, 02:19 PM
No and further more no.

krissonofpark
03-03-2011, 02:21 PM
I have already said no on this thread and given the OP - Rep for his suggestion, but I am now wondering if suggesting Turbine throw away everything they own and have worked long and hard for, is even allowed on these Forums?

Lornman
03-03-2011, 02:23 PM
What kind of cockamamie word is opensourceddo? No, just no.

Drakos
03-03-2011, 02:24 PM
Apparently you have never owned your business. You have any idea the investment Turbine has put to keep this game alive? You have any idea how many contractual agreements are on this game to keep the revenues up? Why would they give away their source code? Your argument makes no business sense whatsoever.
This doesn't even mention the fact the WotC would likely pull the licensing from Turbin if they made this Open Source. The licensing agreement is the only thing allowing Turbin to use the IP that belongs to WotC, and even the Open Gamming License would not allow it.

Tobril
03-03-2011, 02:26 PM
An interesting thing I’ve noticed about the open source kids is
that all they ever do with their “superior” OS is fiddle with it.

This is like the guys that spend all their time working on a car
that only runs one day out of the month.

GentlemanAndAScholar
03-03-2011, 02:28 PM
This doesn't even mention the fact the WotC would likely pull the licensing from Turbin if they made this Open Source. The licensing agreement is the only thing allowing Turbin to use the IP that belongs to WotC, and even the Open Gamming License would not allow it.

You are correct. With the legal rift between Atari and Turbine, the last thing Turbine would do is give Atari any excuse to take away the license. WotC doesn't license directly with Turbine. Unless things have changed recently, WotC does all their video game licensing through Atari.

damoose88
03-03-2011, 02:32 PM
I have already said no on this thread and given the OP - Rep for his suggestion, but I am now wondering if suggesting Turbine throw away everything they own and have worked long and hard for, is even allowed on these Forums?

I'm not suggesting they throw away everything they own. They still own the rights to the game. They still have the final say in what is included or not included. The only difference is that they players can help develop it. They can submit patches and bug-fixes and develop the game for other operating systems. They can still suggest new features (like they've been doing) and they can still tell Turbine when they come across a bug (like they've been doing), however, Turbine won't be the only one having to work on this. Turbine can still develop the core code while allowing the players to design new adventures, classes, gear, PVP systems, etc. In the end, it's less work for them and a better game for the players. Moreover, I already explained how they could continue to profit if they did this -- if $5 a month is too low for them to profit then they could easily increase it to $10 a month and still keep it affordable for the players. Moreover, they would also have access to a free development force, which they could motivate even more by offering discounted rates or a free 3-6 months or so to players who submit accepted code.

With all due respect, Kriss, I'll shut up when I see an official Turbine rep tell me no.

damoose88
03-03-2011, 02:35 PM
You are correct. With the legal rift between Atari and Turbine, the last thing Turbine would do is give Atari any excuse to take away the license. WotC doesn't license directly with Turbine. Unless things have changed recently, WotC does all their video game licensing through Atari.

I don't know what licenses and agreements Turbine has with which companies, nor what the agreement in the contract was, I was merely trying to suggest a way to make the game better while allowing the company to make more money.

Kaeldur
03-03-2011, 02:35 PM
Everyone else. You're assuming that every single programmer in the world is going to want to exploit this game, when, in fact, most of them want a fun, fair, enjoyable game like everyone else. I'm not saying there won't be some people who will try to exploit it, however, there will be others who won't and who will be able to prevent exploitation. Moreover, the core developers (the company itself) will be the only ones who will decide what code is included and what code won't be included -- no different than the early days of Linux when the hackers developed the code and sent their code to Linus, who would then release the updated source.

You only need 1 to ruin it for everyone else.


As far as someone coming along and opening up shop with their own version of this game -- so what? If a new company enters the market with a better product, and are able to demonstrate the superiority of the product, the people will go to the new company. If someone develops a better version of this game, regardless of whether or not they have access to the source code, people will play that game instead. People switch MMOs all the time because they find a game they like better. If the developers release the source to the game to the players (people who already enjoy playing the game), the players can then develop it and make the game they already enjoy even better.

Tell me again where in any point is this good for Turbine?

We don't need Private Servers of DDO... It can also ruin the game's image because game experience in Private Servers is usually tainted and a person can base their opinion on the game from playing on a Private Server while it's a completely different experience on the Official (legal) server.



/notsigned

Sorry. I would love to develop stuff for DDO, as I, myself, am a game dev. But not like this, Turbine is a company and they need to make money. And I hope they do, because I would hate to have DDO close down because of lack of revenue.

A much better suggestion that's been put up is allow players to create and submit content... It's been well formulated and is somewhere around, lazy to find a link right now...

damoose88
03-03-2011, 02:37 PM
This doesn't even mention the fact the WotC would likely pull the licensing from Turbin if they made this Open Source. The licensing agreement is the only thing allowing Turbin to use the IP that belongs to WotC, and even the Open Gamming License would not allow it.

I wasn't aware of the licensing issues, I just thought I would suggest applying a model that has worked very well in other industries, including the gaming industry, to this game. If it can't be done for legal reasons, then so be it.

Drakos
03-03-2011, 02:39 PM
Why do you only quote one sentence separate from the context of the statement in its entirety? I have never owned my own business but I'm not stupid -- I'm fully aware Turbine has spent a lot of money in this game. However, if someone releases a clone of this game (which has been done legally, just look at Pac-Man and Tetris) and releases the source of the code to that clone, Turbine would run into some very serious problems very quickly. Turbine made a great game, but it still has plenty of room for improvement. WB's acquisition of Turbine gave Turbine access to a very large financial repository, but it can only do so much. The players know what they want, obviously, and by opening up the source, they players can build exactly what they want and submit it directly to Turbine, who would decide whether or not to add it. Open-sourcing does not take away any power from Turbine, it gives a lot of power to the players, and it gives Turbine access to a volunteer labor force that would do Turbine's work for them. This model makes great business sense and it would be even better if it were applied to a game like Dungeons and Dragons.
And it gives the not so altruistic people out there every bit of information they would need to create, Bots, Trainers, Hacks, Exploits, etc... and release it upon the world. This would KILL the game. Just look at Open Battlenet (mentioned above) it would turn DDO into that.

Fisrt, talented "hackers" would be able to hide backdoors and worms and such into the code they submitted. If Turbin missed just ONE of thes hidden items then the hacker could have unlimited access to the game servers, which you do realize that includes the account servers, you know the ones that hold everyons credit card data. Look at the Offer Wall feiasco from last year and multiply the ramifications by at least 100.

Secondly, even without inserting malicious code into the game itself, the Hackers would now have access to the communication protocalls and be able to hijack them, piggyback onto them, packet sniffing, enabling them to get peoples login information. There is way too much that would be open and could be made virtually undetectable to Turbin.

Finally, you say "so what if another company produces a clone". You may not think it is a big deal, but I will guarentee that Turbin thinks it is a huge deal, so does WB and their stockholders. Like it or not as a proprietory system they will stay alive, what you suggest would kill the game.

No, not everyone that gets the source will use iy maliciously, but it only takes one to kill the dream.

Mr_Tank
03-03-2011, 02:40 PM
I think the wall was a better idea that this. And we all remember what a disaster that was.
/not signed

GentlemanAndAScholar
03-03-2011, 02:40 PM
The players know what they want, obviously

Again, you must not have have never heard the computer age adage "none of us is as stupid as all of us." A user/player-driven game would be a terrible, terrible idea (at least for the multiplayer games, single-player games it's a whole different animal). You need to prioritize, estimate, cost vs. benefit, etc. things that are not possible to do effectively on a multi-player-driven development.

As for what happens when another studio comes about and opens up shop to compete with them? They can't. Turbine has contractual stipulations to have MMO-exclusivity for which they pay a lot of money.

Drakos
03-03-2011, 02:43 PM
I don't know what licenses and agreements Turbine has with which companies, nor what the agreement in the contract was, I was merely trying to suggest a way to make the game better while allowing the company to make more money.
There is NO way on this earth that your suggestion would help Turbin make more money.

damoose88
03-03-2011, 02:47 PM
And it gives the not so altruistic people out there every bit of information they would need to create, Bots, Trainers, Hacks, Exploits, etc... and release it upon the world. This would KILL the game. Just look at Open Battlenet (mentioned above) it would turn DDO into that.

Fisrt, talented "hackers" would be able to hide backdoors and worms and such into the code they submitted. If Turbin missed just ONE of thes hidden items then the hacker could have unlimited access to the game servers, which you do realize that includes the account servers, you know the ones that hold everyons credit card data. Look at the Offer Wall feiasco from last year and multiply the ramifications by at least 100.

Secondly, even without inserting malicious code into the game itself, the Hackers would now have access to the communication protocalls and be able to hijack them, piggyback onto them, packet sniffing, enabling them to get peoples login information. There is way too much that would be open and could be made virtually undetectable to Turbin.

Finally, you say "so what if another company produces a clone". You may not think it is a big deal, but I will guarentee that Turbin thinks it is a huge deal, so does WB and their stockholders. Like it or not as a proprietory system they will stay alive, what you suggest would kill the game.

No, not everyone that gets the source will use iy maliciously, but it only takes one to kill the dream.

Fair enough.

EyeRekon
03-03-2011, 02:49 PM
Its a nice wish. But Turbine didn't invest so much capital, raise funds, accept buyouts in order to fund the development of DDO to just give it away.

Furthermore, projects that go from Closed-to-Open source reveal a lot of dirty laundry in the codebase and commit logs.

The threat of competition from other teams of developers who can do a far better job is too real. Don't like Turbine's direction? Hear comes Real DDO! Back to true-to-rules gameplay. AC works again! No blanket immunities, etc.

The closest thing I can think of that Turbine might extend is a build-your-own Adventure Pack (think like a mobile phone app). You design your own areas and quests, loot, XP, favor. It gets approved and sold, you get a revenue share of sales.

dragonmane
03-03-2011, 03:29 PM
An interesting thing I’ve noticed about the open source kids is
that all they ever do with their “superior” OS is fiddle with it.

This is like the guys that spend all their time working on a car
that only runs one day out of the month.

That is called Nascar isnt it?? lol

Tobril
03-03-2011, 03:34 PM
That is called Nascar isnt it?? lol


Haha nice, +1

I was actually thinking of the guys in high school that were going
to pick up every chick in town with their bad-ass ride…except they
never finished the car…(or painted it, etc)