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PurpleTimb
03-02-2011, 11:32 AM
I'm looking for some build advice for my static group. We've been playing exclusively together about 3-4 times a week for around 9 months. We want to restart our characters now that we all have 32 point builds and more experience with the game. I want to plan out or party to get some good synergy and try to cover all the requirements. My thinking is we should have a wizard/rogue, a battle cleric and a melee DPSer.

Wiz/rogue is pretty straightforward, just need to decide on warforged or not.

For the cleric I'm thinking either 18clr/2ftr dwarf, or 17/3 clonk (race?).

What I'm stuck on is what to do for the melee option. Tempest ranger? Paladin hate tank? Barbarian? I like the idea of a tank of some sort, but I'm afraid we may struggle to get enough DPS if our melee has to turtle up.

I'm open to any suggestions on how to make our party better. We're fairly casual players, so the focus should be more on quality of experience while leveling and not on how to be the best uber raid gods once we reach cap. I'm not a fan of using hirelings, as our first party got addicted to us each having our own dedicated hireling heal-bot, and it became a liability as we got to higher levels.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

jwdaniels
03-02-2011, 11:34 AM
If you all have WF, a barbarian, a wizard/rogue and a Soul Survivor would be a pretty impressive group.

What types of characters are the three of you looking to play?

jortann
03-02-2011, 11:52 AM
I have a three man group as well...

We have a Barbarian, Fighter and Wiz/Rogue. We all bring our own hireling healer.

And not to brag but this is one of the most efficient groups I have ever been in.

Good luck on your group!

SetofBs
03-02-2011, 11:55 AM
I would not include a tank in your party. Instead, include a high HP DPSer. A barb or maybe even better a dwarven tactics fighter with improved trip and stunning blow. That way the DPS guy can take the aggro when needed, help with crowd control and still contribute the DPS required.

Then a wiz/rogue and a divine that can melee a bit will round you out nicely.

Kriogen
03-02-2011, 01:16 PM
Bard. You can't have a perfect group or melee DPS without a Bard :)

I would suggest melee oriented Cleric, Radiant Servant with high Intimidate skill, any Bard, caster oriented Wizard/Rogue with some skills.

If you do it right, all 3 can do melee damage, all have blue bar, you have all buffs available in this game, lots of CC, you have all skills, more then enough nuke, each can take care of himself and help other.

der_kluge
03-02-2011, 01:26 PM
I would do rog/wiz
bard/barbarian (bardbarian!)
Favored Soul, or Clonk (human or halfling works best).

Bodic
03-02-2011, 01:28 PM
3 tin cans

lord of blades
wiz/rog2
barb, monk, or Ftr

PurpleTimb
03-02-2011, 05:29 PM
I'm reluctant to go all warforged, as only one of our group has it available and I'm pretty anti-WF biased, so it would take a strong argument for me to spend the TPs on it. Also, if all WF I'm concerned about the SP pool of a Wiz/Rog, as he'll be called on to provide nuking and healing.

Having played both a barbarian and a bard, I'm concerned about the squishiness of the later and the requirement for constant healing attention on the former. Additionally, the melee role will probably be filled by our least experienced player, and so reducing the requirement for juggling of clickies, timers and the like is important. The bardbarian sounds like a great idea, but I'm worried that the player wouldn't be up to the task of managing that complicated a character.

How well would a paladin or paladin based character be able to fill the DPS role? I've no real experience playing them but thought that might fill the need for DPS while having a lot of survivability and also a bit of self healing ability.

SetofBs
03-09-2011, 09:15 PM
I'm reluctant to go all warforged, as only one of our group has it available and I'm pretty anti-WF biased, so it would take a strong argument for me to spend the TPs on it. Also, if all WF I'm concerned about the SP pool of a Wiz/Rog, as he'll be called on to provide nuking and healing.

Having played both a barbarian and a bard, I'm concerned about the squishiness of the later and the requirement for constant healing attention on the former. Additionally, the melee role will probably be filled by our least experienced player, and so reducing the requirement for juggling of clickies, timers and the like is important. The bardbarian sounds like a great idea, but I'm worried that the player wouldn't be up to the task of managing that complicated a character.

How well would a paladin or paladin based character be able to fill the DPS role? I've no real experience playing them but thought that might fill the need for DPS while having a lot of survivability and also a bit of self healing ability.

A paladin is a fine option. Preferably a human TWF Khopesh build or a Drow TWF build. They are top notch DPS actually with their smites and divine sacrifice. Situationally more DPS than fighters.

Gorbadoc
03-09-2011, 09:59 PM
Having played both a barbarian and a bard, I'm concerned about the squishiness of the later and the requirement for constant healing attention on the former. Additionally, the melee role will probably be filled by our least experienced player, and so reducing the requirement for juggling of clickies, timers and the like is important. The bardbarian sounds like a great idea, but I'm worried that the player wouldn't be up to the task of managing that complicated a character.

Holy purple text, batman!

Is he just inexperienced? If he can learn timing, check out The Classic Rocker (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3029997). A THF bard can be an absolute monster on a shoestring budget, provided its owner plays smart. You don't want to tank an entire swarm of at-level trolls, but thanks to Stealth and Fascinate, you never have to. Your friend won't need experience, but he will have to practice sneaking around and Fascinating stuff to learn the timing (I recommend playing around on Korthos).

For a heavier hitter, go for a Horc version.
For an even heavier hitter, dump the metamagic feats in favor of the THF line.
To get the skills you should want, pull a point or two from strength and put them into Intelligence. The skills you should want to max are: Hide, Move Silently, Listen (stealth package); Concentration, Perform, UMD (standard bard stuff).
To be a proper CCer and not just a part-time pretty face, dump the Song Magic enhancements and the second Human Versatility ability score enhancement, and take Extra Song I-IV, Music of the Dead, and Music of Makers.

Gorbadoc
03-09-2011, 10:02 PM
A paladin is a fine option. Preferably a human TWF Khopesh build or a Drow TWF build. They are top notch DPS actually with their smites and divine sacrifice. Situationally more DPS than fighters.

Also, thanks to Holy Sword, paladins can compete with the big-boys for high-level DR-beating DPS without having to craft fancypants Greensteel.

aiastelmon
03-09-2011, 10:21 PM
3 tin cans

lord of blades
wiz/rog2
barb, monk, or Ftr

This ^^^

I've run this basic setup with friends, and it's rock-solid. The arguments for WF are many-fold, but the bottom line here is that you've got a lot of overlapping backup of capability. The FvS and the Barb (def go WF barb for the melee DPS slot) can dish out serious melee DPS and be extremely durable. The Wiz can be played as support (haste and heroism) or as DPS.

Divines can heal WF very well once you get to Heal, so the FvS can easily heal this trio (I've done it quite a bit, it's laughably easy). The arcane won't even need to bother with heals once the FvS gets to about level 12.

FvS: Main tank, heals, buffer with nice supplemental DPS in the form of Blade Barriers (The Soul Survivor build is my favorite: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=268346)

Barb: Pure DPS, any build you like, max Str and it's hard to screw this up. THF early on and TWF later if you like.

Wiz/Rog: Buffs, Firewalling, Utility, Trap-Monkey. Can be a melee Arcane too if that's your taste and focus on melee-buffs (Blur, Stoneskin, Haste, Displace).

Bladesmark Docents for everyone at level 5, and you can ride the 5DR + Lifeshield up through Haste/Blur/Stoneskin, then ride that to 20.

Once you go WF like this, you'll never go back to fleshie.

Thaxlsillyia
03-21-2011, 10:01 AM
Having played both a barbarian and a bard, I'm concerned about the squishiness of the later and the requirement for constant healing attention on the former.

Will a 32 pt solar phoenix or one of its varients make a strong case here?

Sorry for necroing :D

Therigar
03-21-2011, 10:20 AM
If you all have WF, a barbarian, a wizard/rogue and a Soul Survivor would be a pretty impressive group.

What types of characters are the three of you looking to play?

It seems crazy NOT to go for an all WF group as you can eliminate the battle cleric entirely and leave the wizard to deal with your repair needs. This opens so many class options that you don't really need to be concerned about the other two choices. You take a wizard 18/rogue 2 and let the other two players be whatever class or multiclass they want.

The warforged favored soul built along the metal cockroach design is very good. It gives you access to some divine buffs and offensive spells. The advantage of using it in your group would be that the player could skip healing spells entirely (except for raise dead, which could always be scrolled).

Ranger, fighter, barbarian and paladin all make good choices for any melee. So does monk. I found the dark path monk to be especially easy to play as warforged. But, you might find that you don't even need a melee character in a warforged group.

In fact, you might get by with a sorcerer, a rogue and a favored soul. IMO this may give you the highest synergy as a group. Favored soul is good for grabbing aggro & doing damage and with higher AC and offensive & buff spells gets you triple duty. Rogue is good for high DPS w/o aggro and can deal with your scouting & trap needs. Sorcerer has more spell points than the wizard option and can do triple duty as offensive, buff and repair bot (although losing some versatility thru spell swaps).

Since there are several spell levels where the options are somewhat meh the lack of versatility in a sorcerer's spell choices doesn't seem that much of a limitation to me.

Anyway, that would be my suggestion if you all have and are willing to use WF.

Ttip
03-22-2011, 12:33 AM
I would go all WF... Sorc, Wiz/Rog, Sorc and all bring hirling melees...I picture wall to wall flames in every room with more than 3 mobs encountered....

Arsont
03-22-2011, 01:24 AM
I'm in agreeance with most of the posters, that some combo of warforged FvS/Arcane/Whathaveyou would be best (Say, a Lord of Blades FvS, pure sorc and a rogue, or maybe a FvS, 18/2 wiz/rogue and then a tactics fighter or warchanter bard). However, if you're biased against using warforged...

For your melee:A paladin or ranger are both very viable for self-sustaining fleshies. In fact, if someone does play a ranger, a strength/dex based Arcane Archer can be very useful for managing aggro, but it requires more skill and know-how. Otherwise, a twf paladin with a high Intimidate could be pretty handy for managing aggro. Or, if you don't -need- a self-sustaining melee, you could always go with a tactics oriented fighter, or a high hp melee (Dwarf stalwart with thf dps, or maybe a barbarian).

For your caster: If you're all going to be fleshlings, you have two main options, IMO. Either combine some roles and go with an 18/2 wiz/rogue, or add a little bit extra healing with a sorc investing in UMD (A sorc should be able to UMD some healing wands in the mid levels to be a little more self-sustainable, if not help out with the party). Either should work fine, depending on what the rest of the group is like and the gear they can keep up.

For your...third slot: I hesitate to call this your "healer" slot, because you don't really -want- a healbot in this spot (If you did just want a healbot, then fill this spot with another melee and just have everyone pick up hirelings). Instead, I'd HIGHLY suggest a healing capable bard. In a smaller group like this, it'd be very easy for a bard to keep all three of you up, while still being able to provide some other useful party buffs. If you end up going this route, I would suggest adding some melee ability to the bard, just to justify the overlap of some of the arcane buffs (Unless you have a "all nuke, all the time" sorc). However, if you don't like the idea of a bard, an 18/2 dwarven cleric/fighter would work. I'm sure any sort of battle cleric would work, however (Provided the player could balance the roles). Alternatively, a human or elven twf Fvs could work here (Or even a Lord of Blades, if the person with Warforged wants to play this role). This could be pure or 18/2 fighter or monk, depending on what you're looking for (Fighter/Monk give feats, monk gives stances/evasion, fighter gives hp and extra toughness/strength enhancements, while pure 20 FvS has some useful stuff at cap if you intend on taking these toons to 20 and then staying there a while).

Anyhow...once again, I've gone on longer than I intended. Wall of text, critical hit! My apologies.

Tl;DR: Go all forgies, or a mix of self sustainable fleshies.

I guess that's all I have for you. Hope some of it was actually of use. Good luck!

PestWulf
03-23-2011, 12:24 PM
I've been playing with a friend in a bunch of duo's and put some thought to this type of thing as well. Taking different builds out from the duo's we made, I kind of like the idea of a holy trio.

A TWF, offense oriented paladin with Hunter of Dead, train intimidate and have a shield switch in for when you absolutely have to have a tank.

A Cleric/Monk/Ranger TWF with the AA line to assist in stationary long range targets with radiant servant 2

A Rogue/Bard using Theif Acrobat 2. High charisma for UMD and Bard perform, I'd probably go Virtuoso for the Enthrall or Spellsinger for more sp to hand out the haste/blur/displace buffs and glitter.

Another option would be Bard/Rouge with SpellSinger 2. This can synergize with the cleric's Divine Vitality allowing the trio a high amount of spell point self sufficiency. Weaker damage on this character but better crowd control and better buffs for the other two party members (likely netting an overall increase in damage output despite the loss of self damage output)

What gives a good synergy also is getting your healing amplifications up to make it easier for the cleric to keep you heald with Burst and Aura, reducing the amount they have to dip into their mana pool. Half-elf Monk on the Paladin would allow him to have a (1.3 x 1.2 x 1.2) = ~87% amplification (30% from Hunter, 20% half-elf, 20% monk dilettante). If you wanted to give up your capstone for Jidz, you could splash 2 lvls of monk for evasion and the Jidz in fire stance, but if you did this you would need to allocate your stats differently to make sure you capitalize on the wis armor bonus or you'll come out behind.

This allows for high healing from potions as well as the burst/aura healing from the cleric allowing for an overall great self sufficiency before you even touch your LOH.

You have the option of wading into combat with all three of you, or go with a more methodical mez/charm isolation approach. In the fights where you have to burn something out in a fairly quick amount of time, you've got a dual wielding divine sacrifice/smite paladin with either top or one-down divine might depending on how you choose to do enhancements, a healer that can pop multishot, mid-to high tier divine might/power/favor/slayer arrows and a Bard to cheer you onward or increase the number of allies you have beating on the guy.

I personally like the versatility of it and the passiveness of the defense. The more healing amplification you can get on each member, the easier you'll make it on the cleric, but I think the paladin would be your primary benefactor with a trained intimidate.

I make builds for myself and my friend all the time, but I'm an amature at high level content. I know what I read on the boards and I can extrapolate from my level 17 character. But duo'ing removes us from some content, so please take my advice with that in mind :)

Darkrok
03-23-2011, 12:35 PM
Will a 32 pt solar phoenix or one of its varients make a strong case here?

Sorry for necroing :D

I would say no just because it's barely enough dps for a full group. Even the 15/3/2 variant of the Phoenix offers sketchy dps. I currently have a level 20 of the 15/3/2 variant and while it's a blast to play when on the right quests and probably the most survivable non-caster in the game it simply doesn't offer up enough dps to allow short-man/solo runs to win through any method other than attrition. :(

RuneStriker
03-23-2011, 01:15 PM
Having played both a barbarian and a bard, I'm concerned about the squishiness of the later and the requirement for constant healing attention on the former. Additionally, the melee role will probably be filled by our least experienced player, and so reducing the requirement for juggling of clickies, timers and the like is important. The bardbarian sounds like a great idea, but I'm worried that the player wouldn't be up to the task of managing that complicated a character.

How well would a paladin or paladin based character be able to fill the DPS role? I've no real experience playing them but thought that might fill the need for DPS while having a lot of survivability and also a bit of self healing ability.

If your concerned about the player's ability to manage constant clickies and timers then Barbarian is definitely the way to go for your melee.

Paladin, Monk and AA rangers all require constant juggling of timers and "clickie" style powers to be most effective. Even Tempest Rangers and Kensai Fighters take a bit of buff management to play properly. Party buffed Barbs (haste, protections, displacement/blur) pretty much have only rage, uncanny dodge and PrE abilities to worry about, and once CON gets up there and the durations increase even Rage is a once in a blue moon click during regular adventures.

Regardless of race selected, I would recommend a Max STR, Max CON THF Barb (or 18/2 Barb/Fighter for Toughness and an extra feat) for your melee. They are very powerful and silly easy to gear up due to having only two main stats to worry about and only one of each weapon type to acquire. They are also very forgiving because the high starting stats help to compensate for lack of player knowledge and gear. This let's your less experienced player focus more on learning and enjoying the game and less on grinding out gear and managing clickies.

And sorry, but I just had to get rid of the eye-watering purple text when I quoted you. No offense intended.

Darkrok
03-23-2011, 02:09 PM
If your concerned about the player's ability to manage constant clickies and timers then Barbarian is definitely the way to go for your melee.

Paladin, Monk and AA rangers all require constant juggling of timers and "clickie" style powers to be most effective. Even Tempest Rangers and Kensai Fighters take a bit of buff management to play properly. Party buffed Barbs (haste, protections, displacement/blur) pretty much have only rage, uncanny dodge and PrE abilities to worry about, and once CON gets up there and the durations increase even Rage is a once in a blue moon click during regular adventures.

Regardless of race selected, I would recommend a Max STR, Max CON THF Barb (or 18/2 Barb/Fighter for Toughness and an extra feat) for your melee. They are very powerful and silly easy to gear up due to having only two main stats to worry about and only one of each weapon type to acquire. They are also very forgiving because the high starting stats help to compensate for lack of player knowledge and gear. This let's your less experienced player focus more on learning and enjoying the game and less on grinding out gear and managing clickies.

And sorry, but I just had to get rid of the eye-watering purple text when I quoted you. No offense intended.

I agree, though if you can get them to spring for Warforged you even simplify things further. No poison. No disease. No neg levels. No exhaustion after rages. Hack, slash, murder, death, kill.

PurpleTimb
03-24-2011, 07:21 PM
Thanks for all the comments and recommendations. There sure seems to be a lot of love for warforged. Why is it that so many seem to think that all builds would be better if they were warforged?

Therigar
03-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Thanks for all the comments and recommendations. There sure seems to be a lot of love for warforged. Why is it that so many seem to think that all builds would be better if they were warforged?

I don't think that this is the case.

I think that you asked for help with a static trio and people recognize the inherent advantages of a small group taking warforged as the racial choice.

With a standard 6 player group you can spread out the various roles a group would normally be looking for. One healer, a backup healer that does some other support role, one arcane (that maybe handles trap issues) and then 2 or 3 DPS (which may or may not include rogues depending on if the group has an effective intimi/hate tank).

But, with 3 players -- especially because you indicate that you'd like to move away from relying on hirelings -- your group has to shove all that down into 3 characters.

Warforged lets you get away from needing a healer because your arcane becomes your healer. Depending on the choices others make this could also be your trapper character. What we know is that other players have successfully run arcanes and also been able to contribute heavily to the melee by using two-handed weapons. This plays off the inherent warforged abilities.

Choosing warforged lets you merge backup healing with DPS and buff support. I've suggested favored soul because there is inherent synergy with the warforged Lord of Blades. But, ranger and paladin also fit well in that second slot as does bard.

That frees the third player to choose any DPS route. I favor the choice of rogue with the favored soul really working on the intimi/hate tanking. But fighter or barbarian also work well here.

What we are saying doesn't have to do with warforged being an uber race. From the race side there are cases to be made for half-orc, half-elf and halfling that are equally strong. And, humans have their proponents anytime race comes up.

What we are saying is that for you, in your specific situation, warforged offers the best option for a 3 character group to cover all the major group roles.

PurpleTimb
03-25-2011, 02:27 PM
Thanks for laying that all out. I understand about the need for synergy and have one character fill multiple roles in a short-man group. I guess I just needed more help understanding why warforged brings more to the table.

leadhead
03-25-2011, 04:58 PM
I play in a trio with friends we have actually have numerous combinations. The best by far is

1. Battle cleric or Paladin
2. Assassin
3. Warchanter

with cleric hirelings in tow of course.

We have elited everything up to level 9 so far and it has been a blast.

Therigar
03-25-2011, 07:16 PM
Thanks for laying that all out. I understand about the need for synergy and have one character fill multiple roles in a short-man group. I guess I just needed more help understanding why warforged brings more to the table.

No problem. I'll be curious as to what you all actually decide to do and to hear the reasons for your choices.

daniel7
04-12-2011, 05:09 PM
Thanks for laying that all out. I understand about the need for synergy and have one character fill multiple roles in a short-man group. I guess I just needed more help understanding why warforged brings more to the table.

Divine spell casters have to slot spells that:
1. Heal
2. Remove negative levels
3. Cure disease
4. Removes poison
5. Gives freedom of movement
WF players only need to be healed (and ressurected which can be done by multiple classes)...and to make things better WF players can be healed by more classes...sorcerers, wizards, bards, clerics, favored souls, UMD capable toons.

The WF caster in your group is the key element here.
1. 20 Wizard brings spells, heals, buffs, skills (my pure wizard can sneak past everything)
2. 2rog/18 wizard brings more skills and survivability plus more xp
3. 20 sorcerer brings more spell points, umd, intimidate (especially useful if 1/3 of your party members is a rogue)

But you did say that you didn't like warforges and no one said you had to muscle your way through everything...
You could pick classes that utilize the sneak feat. That would save resources and change the game play completely for you. The larger the party the less you will use it but if all 3 of you want to play that way it could be fun...

Maxallu
04-12-2011, 05:14 PM
Go all WFs

Wizzy/Rogue
Bard/Fighter/Rogue twf warchanter
FVS


there you go.

daniel7
04-12-2011, 06:18 PM
Oh but to actually answer your question I would maybe do something like this...

All 3 WF
1. Level 20 Wizard OR 2rog/18wiz
2. Level 20 Barbarian OR 2rog/18barb for the novice player
3. Level 20 Favored Soul

or not all WF party

1. Level 20 Wizard or 2rog/18wiz - I would still go WF here
2. Level 20 Paladin with some good healing amp
3. Level 20 cleric or 2mnk/18clr radiant savant

wax_on_wax_off
04-12-2011, 08:49 PM
Thanks for laying that all out. I understand about the need for synergy and have one character fill multiple roles in a short-man group. I guess I just needed more help understanding why warforged brings more to the table.

If WF isn't to taste there are ways to work around it.

Personally, I'm not too fond of the WF Wiz/rog builds as they defer getting spells, have lower DCs and less versatility with skills, it's amazing how awesome it is to get spells like firewall, finger of death and wail of the banshee sooner rather than later.

As an alternative trapper, a DPS character like a tempest ranger could be a good fit here which will give a nice backup ranged option too.

My combo for you:
12 ranger / 7 rogue or 7 fighter / 1 monk, armed and unarmed pure DPS build, can cover traps, stealth and some nice buffs. Stunning fist can be worked into this build for U9, the build will have excellent AC for a majority of content, human, half-elf, half-orc, warforged, dwarf, halfling all make interesting racial choices with a mixture of tactics and DPS.
20 wizard palemaster or 20 sorcerer savant. The wizard is the better choice with stealth, self healing and better spells sooner. Human, half-elf, drow or warforged are decent choices for either. 2 monk/18 pale master is an option with some fun unarmed combat too (hold person/monster + undead form smacking = dead mob).
20 WF FvS Soul Survivor. Your aggro magnet, unkillable tank. Can self heal, is unkillable and can be backup healed by the wizard.

Pros of this combo: races are flexible to allow for flavour, both of the incoming PrE's are being used which will be fun, all 3 characters are very sturdy, none of the builds need particular gear, the DPS build is as easy to play as they come.