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View Full Version : Please un-gimp implosion



teknophreaq
03-02-2011, 02:38 AM
I am a cleric that exists in a world of Wail of the Banshee. The cooldown on that is what, 8/4 seconds depending on the class? Implosion? A whopping 60 seconds. I'm not asking for you to reduce it to 4, or even 8, but 30 or 40 would make it more useable without it being gamebreaking.

Forzah
03-02-2011, 02:45 AM
Either that, or remove the SR check :)

SynalonEtuul
03-02-2011, 02:49 AM
/signed

elujin
03-02-2011, 02:49 AM
and just make it kill evry monster in the quest ?

Morningfrost
03-02-2011, 03:13 AM
/signed, and rename it "Division by zero".

DrenglisEU
03-02-2011, 04:20 AM
/Signed a lowered cool down would be ok!

TheDearLeader
03-02-2011, 04:27 AM
Wail of the Banshee is also affected by SR.

Implosion is actually a very powerful spell, if you consider it well.

For an Arcane caster, casting Wail is.

Move to mobs.
Get right in the center of mobs.
Cast Wail. Either use Quicken, or make a Concentration check(s) as one, or more, mobs will hit you
Wait for casting animation to finish. See what saves.
Maybe bite it in the midst of doing all of this, or directly after when you realize your save DCs suck.

So.. that's Wail.

Implosion is:
See mobs.
Begin moving to mobs.
Cast Implosion on the run. Don't need Concentration checks/Quicken, because you're just outside of engagement area.
Now, for the next... 8 seconds? You are capable of casting another spell, healing, melee fighting, shield blocking.. whatever you want, really, while the mobs around you must save versus a rather nasty insta-death effect.

Don't sell your spells short, guys and gals. :)

y0himba.net
03-02-2011, 05:03 AM
/signed

Shorter cooldown period please.

flynnjsw
03-02-2011, 05:16 AM
Hi, I live in a world where I want things easier and everything should be equal.


/not signed.

Spells have their place and have their uses, my suggestion would be to learn to do other things while Implosion is on cool-down.

FuzzyDuck81
03-02-2011, 06:46 AM
The other advantage of implosion over wail is that implosion will work on stuff like undead thats normally immune to death magic

Kinerd
03-02-2011, 07:10 PM
Wail of the Banshee is also affected by SR.

Implosion is actually a very powerful spell, if you consider it well.

For an Arcane caster, casting Wail is.

Move to mobs.
Get right in the center of mobs.
Cast Wail. Either use Quicken, or make a Concentration check(s) as one, or more, mobs will hit you
Wait for casting animation to finish. See what saves.
Maybe bite it in the midst of doing all of this, or directly after when you realize your save DCs suck.

So.. that's Wail.

Implosion is:
See mobs.
Begin moving to mobs.
Cast Implosion on the run. Don't need Concentration checks/Quicken, because you're just outside of engagement area.
Now, for the next... 8 seconds? You are capable of casting another spell, healing, melee fighting, shield blocking.. whatever you want, really, while the mobs around you must save versus a rather nasty insta-death effect.

Don't sell your spells short, guys and gals. :)I think you're selling arcanes extremely short with that analysis. What kind of arcane would wander into an uncontrolled, un-aggroed crowd, hit Wail, slowly observe what's going on, and then react? Plus Wail is a true AoE, Implosion can only latch onto one target at a time.

It's not like there are a ton of Evocation-spec Clerics running around that we have to worry about becoming unbalanced. I think a shorter cooldown is justified.

TheDearLeader
03-02-2011, 07:18 PM
I think you're selling arcanes extremely short with that analysis. What kind of arcane would wander into an uncontrolled, un-aggroed crowd, hit Wail, slowly observe what's going on, and then react? Plus Wail is a true AoE, Implosion can only latch onto one target at a time.

It's not like there are a ton of Evocation-spec Clerics running around that we have to worry about becoming unbalanced. I think a shorter cooldown is justified.

I think this thread sells Divines short.

Uncontrolled, unaggroed - what...? It almost sounds like you expect the melee in the party to do something. Or, for that matter, what about the solo arcanist?

As for "slowly observe and react", considering Wail does still have a cooldown, however small it is in compare to implosion, you can't double tap. It also has the original casting animation. And even if you Wail and keep moving, any mobs that save will likely get 1-2 swings in on you, since the game seems to only like to do real-time distance checking for attacks and spells for PCs.

Its a persistent spell that can be cast at no peril to the caster involved, and allows the divine caster to maintain multiple actions in a combat situation.

And, as has been stated to support what I've said : Yes, it also works on mobs normally immune to Wail, such as undead. It is a powerful spell.

Tirisha
03-02-2011, 07:41 PM
Wail of the Banshee is also affected by SR.

Implosion is actually a very powerful spell, if you consider it well.

For an Arcane caster, casting Wail is.

Move to mobs.
Get right in the center of mobs.
Cast Wail. Either use Quicken, or make a Concentration check(s) as one, or more, mobs will hit you
Wait for casting animation to finish. See what saves.
Maybe bite it in the midst of doing all of this, or directly after when you realize your save DCs suck.

So.. that's Wail.

Implosion is:
See mobs.
Begin moving to mobs.
Cast Implosion on the run. Don't need Concentration checks/Quicken, because you're just outside of engagement area.
Now, for the next... 8 seconds? You are capable of casting another spell, healing, melee fighting, shield blocking.. whatever you want, really, while the mobs around you must save versus a rather nasty insta-death effect.

Don't sell your spells short, guys and gals. :)

On my arcane I just run and jump over the mobs cast wail with or without quicken no concentration check needed (just jump:D). On my Divine I might use Implosion if it was ever off timer.

If you cast implosion outside of combat you may lose one or two of those precious ticks too.

CD aside Wail is better simply because it effects everything in range *not up too eight mobs* instantaneously instead of having too wait 8 seconds for it too play out.

Strakeln
03-02-2011, 07:58 PM
Well, at least we know who to blame when Wail gets a 60 second timer.

Musouka
03-02-2011, 08:19 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm

I think they need to go into what the pen and paper version was. It was not an AOE, you concentrated on one enemy, causing the player to pick their targets for 4 rounds.

arjiwan
03-02-2011, 09:07 PM
I agree that Wail > Implosion.

If I see a mob, I don't cast implosion from a safe distance, because if you do, there will be a lot of precious Implosion seconds that will be wasted. You can only kill 1 mob at a time. If the implosion catches the one with the super high save, it will not look for the next mob, but will stay with that same creature and may waste your implosion spell.

Like the way the Wail is casted, I also cast it the same way, I jump within the crowd, cast the implosion, getting hit and have a concentration check.

I also wanted the Implosion to be decent since I am playing a Divine. But for me, I only treat Implosion as a flavor spell. I also don't want the Implosion to be the go to spell. Jump, Implosion, ???, Profit!

I'll just let the arcanes do the crowd killing. =)

Cheers!

Lorien_the_First_One
03-02-2011, 09:13 PM
Wail of the Banshee is also affected by SR.

Implosion is actually a very powerful spell, if you consider it well.

For an Arcane caster, casting Wail is.

Move to mobs.
Get right in the center of mobs.
Cast Wail. Either use Quicken, or make a Concentration check(s) as one, or more, mobs will hit you
Wait for casting animation to finish. See what saves.
Maybe bite it in the midst of doing all of this, or directly after when you realize your save DCs suck.

So.. that's Wail.

Implosion is:
See mobs.
Begin moving to mobs.
Cast Implosion on the run. Don't need Concentration checks/Quicken, because you're just outside of engagement area.
Now, for the next... 8 seconds? You are capable of casting another spell, healing, melee fighting, shield blocking.. whatever you want, really, while the mobs around you must save versus a rather nasty insta-death effect.

Don't sell your spells short, guys and gals. :)

I have a capped cleric, fvs, sorc, and wiz

While there are some rare times when implosion is a better choice wail almost always wins out. The fact is wail I can keep spamming, not so much with implosion. Implosion SLOWLY takes out mobs beating on me, wail takes them all down at once.

The Implosion cool down timer has to be significantly reduced for it to come close to what wail can do for you.

Saaluta
03-02-2011, 09:17 PM
Well, at least we know who to blame when Wail gets a 60 second timer.

I 2nd Strakeln's suggesstion, put Wail on a 60 second timer :)

Oh, wait...you mean that's not what you meant :D Oh well, suggestion is in the nets now :)

Saal :)

parowan
03-02-2011, 09:27 PM
/signed

shorter cooldown pls - nothing extreme, but not as extremely long as is

Kaeldur
03-02-2011, 09:35 PM
Either shorter cooldown or have Extend work on it :)

I was so disappointed back when I took it the first time thinking Extend would work...

Anyway, I'm happy with it the way it is though, would like it even more if one of the changes I stated actually happened :D

Moar powa!? Gimme!

moops
03-02-2011, 09:41 PM
I just use Destruction and Slay Living as well, the cooldown is not a prob for me. I actually Prefer Destruction in many circumstances, as my caster prefers FOD in the same.

Rapagun
03-02-2011, 09:51 PM
I play arcane and divine and i say

/not signed

teknophreaq
03-02-2011, 10:20 PM
Wow, surprised to see so much discussion.

Implosion targets 1 enemy at a time, and if that enemy has even DECENT SR, it's continually targeting that same creature even though there's no chance at it breaking through the SR. Pounding the sand much? I know that falls back to my char having the Spell Penetration to make it worth while, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. Let's say my char was in a boss fight with tons of trash mobs around. There is no WAY that a sufficiently skilled cleric at present could deal with both the trash and the boss with implosion/destruction/slay living, whatever, and still maintain decent heals either on themselves or a party member, whereas an arcane can run around, drop 3 or 4 wails (and get rid of all the trash in the process), have enough time to heal themselves, and spam 40 fws. All this could happen in the time it takes for Implosion to cool down.

Also, my observations are more based around the numerous groups where 1 sufficiently skilled arcane caster can wipe out 6 - 12 mob members every 8/4 seconds. Wail targets everything it can while implosion is "one target at a time". Since the description reads "You create a destructive resonance field around yourself, causing nearby corporeal enemies to collapse in upon themselves and die instantly". To me, an aura should effect everything that is inside it at the same time, not just one target at a time, in the order in which they entered.

So I guess my original request has been modified: make it affect all eligible targets in the aura (akin to wail, where ALL targets in the aura must make an SR check every 1/2 second), or reduce the cooldown.

Soljargon
03-02-2011, 11:21 PM
I am a cleric that exists in a world of Wail of the Banshee. The cooldown on that is what, 8/4 seconds depending on the class? Implosion? A whopping 60 seconds. I'm not asking for you to reduce it to 4, or even 8, but 30 or 40 would make it more useable without it being gamebreaking.

Agreed. The cool down time does seem rather long.

Memnir
03-02-2011, 11:23 PM
The cool-down could be cut in half, and it'd be nothing but a good thing.

Kinerd
03-21-2011, 06:10 PM
Well, at least we know who to blame when Wail gets a 60 second timer.From the proposed changes thread:

Death spells had their cool downs increased, just a little on single target spells, a bit on AOEs. Single target spells are typically on a 8 second cool down, 6 seconds for sorcerers while AOE death effects are typically 30/25 respectively.

Prescient!

MrWizard
03-21-2011, 06:32 PM
8 seconds each, 6 favored souls/clerics in quest...

6x8 = 48 seconds of every minute with someone's implosion on....if you wait til someone else's is off, about 1 second, then shave six seconds off that to keep it up pretty much entire quest aside from one 6 second period of no implosion.


that my friends is awesome zerging for loot, zerging through wilderness slayers, and killing everyone in pvp not deathwarded..

just a hoot.

Yagi
03-21-2011, 08:33 PM
Wow, surprised to see so much discussion.

Im There is no WAY that a sufficiently skilled cleric at present could deal with both the trash and the boss with implosion/destruction/slay living, whatever, and still maintain decent heals either on themselves or a party member, whereas an arcane can run around, drop 3 or 4 wails (and get rid of all the trash in the process), have enough time to heal themselves, and spam 40 fws. All this could happen in the time it takes for Implosion to cool down.



"NO WAY?" You've never kited mobs through bb's/symbols while healing on the fly and tossing comets and bursts on casters? Its just buttons man. Hardkey all the go-to spells to keys you can reach comfortably, use quicken where appropriate and there you go.

Maintaining heals while kiting is the easiest part of such a situation, since most that you'd be using are instant-cast.

As for the actual topic, sure, sounds fun.

Chidane
03-21-2011, 09:14 PM
/signed, I may not understand your divine plights, but I perfectly understand gimped spells.

JustBleed
08-27-2012, 06:26 PM
Wow, surprised to see so much discussion.

Implosion targets 1 enemy at a time, and if that enemy has even DECENT SR, it's continually targeting that same creature even though there's no chance at it breaking through the SR. Pounding the sand much? I know that falls back to my char having the Spell Penetration to make it worth while, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. Let's say my char was in a boss fight with tons of trash mobs around. There is no WAY that a sufficiently skilled cleric at present could deal with both the trash and the boss with implosion/destruction/slay living, whatever, and still maintain decent heals either on themselves or a party member, whereas an arcane can run around, drop 3 or 4 wails (and get rid of all the trash in the process), have enough time to heal themselves, and spam 40 fws. All this could happen in the time it takes for Implosion to cool down.

Also, my observations are more based around the numerous groups where 1 sufficiently skilled arcane caster can wipe out 6 - 12 mob members every 8/4 seconds. Wail targets everything it can while implosion is "one target at a time". Since the description reads "You create a destructive resonance field around yourself, causing nearby corporeal enemies to collapse in upon themselves and die instantly". To me, an aura should effect everything that is inside it at the same time, not just one target at a time, in the order in which they entered.

So I guess my original request has been modified: make it affect all eligible targets in the aura (akin to wail, where ALL targets in the aura must make an SR check every 1/2 second), or reduce the cooldown.

This. 1 minute cooldown is absurd. It makes the spell worthless. Why is BB the only good spell we have? No wonder people hate clerics.

Flavilandile
08-28-2012, 02:29 AM
*Casts Turn Undead*

Nice Necro.

Wail has the same cooldown now ( and was subject of a violent application of the neft bat ), so the thread is mostly pointless.

janave
08-28-2012, 04:28 AM
/signed for 30sec

licho
08-28-2012, 06:26 AM
*Casts Turn Undead*

Nice Necro.

Wail has the same cooldown now ( and was subject of a violent application of the neft bat ), so the thread is mostly pointless.

This topic was always pointless.

JustBleed
08-28-2012, 10:14 PM
This topic was always pointless.

9th lvl spells should be the best. Not the worst.