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View Full Version : Ultimate Epic Ramblings, Rants, and Rainbows after the storm



Anthios888
02-28-2011, 02:01 PM
I have this weird feeling today. As I lay in bed not sleeping last night, I was obsessed with the idea of how they should do epic in DDO going forward. I didn't need any more of a hint that the 3 (or more) tier Crystal Cove grind is probably a precursor to the epic "rehauled" system.

I love epic and I run it a lot. There are a few areas that, if improved, would make the system more effective and engaging overall.

Problems I see that hurt epic's effectiveness

Players love unique loot. Rare loot is made rarer with too many Sacred Bands (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Sacred_Band) clogging the loot tables that make level 12 and 13 a better alteriative. Every item should be theoretically usable by someone. This idea has been beaten into the ground, so I will not take too much time.
Very little sense of progression. There is no reward other than dungeon token or part of a dungeon token. Twentieth raid lists leave much to be desired.
Whack loot tables, specifically in the Desert with regard to raid items and explorer area items.
No way to fix bad luck by trading for something. At least if you're the guy who goes 70 Shrouds without a Large Scale, you can buy it. This would be alleviated significantly by end reward systems that filled in the epic loot gaps as raid 20th lists do.
Chest levels are too low (not addressed here)


How Turbine could improve the current epic system and maintain the integrity of what is already in place

1. All of our epics that we currently have should become tier 1 epics.

Because if it's not getting better, I'm not grinding more for it. I don't want to sit around crunching stuff so that my level 13 Spectral Gloves get +1 more to-hit on them.

2. Tier 2 and 3 should be a mix of set upgrades and customizable upgrades

More creative and diverse than the current slots -- there are only so many ways we can want to fit 6 dex and 1 con on our gear. I'm not going to make a list of my selfish wish gear like every other thread about epic. Regardless of what I want, many more combinations and unique abilities would be really good for this game. Niche stuff is not bad, even if ten Real Rogues cry every time a trapsmithing item or glancing blows item or unarmed item or armor class item is introduced. The more focused gear is, the more it will be utilized. And, in combination, the more customizable, the more diversity we can see. Craftable guards, superior elemental resistances, clickies a la dimension door, break enchantment, protection from elements, teleport, good hope.

The reason we need them semi-set is to help power balance the items. Sword of Shadow needs a bit less help than Whirlwind. Whirlwind might never be the same. But what if it made the Whirlwind feat worth taking?

3. Tier 1s should be a bit easier.

Rocka System (tm) would justify tweaking drop rates for the worst grinds, see desert items, because they would no longer be quite the best of the best (Hey, let's not argue whether your house p fireball necklace is the best of the best).

4. Exchange my stuff I don't want for stuff I do want.

Example: Turn in a shard, seal, or scroll + 10 dungeon tokens for a typical end reward list of epic loot in that adventure pack. You pick the item: list of shards, seals, or scroll). Please avoid a system that encourage ninjaing every item and taking them out of the rolloff player-preferred system. I don't need to loot every seal of the ring of venom in my 200th run of Last Stand (true story omg). I want to give it away. That's why tying it to actual completions (dungeon tokens or crafting ingredients) is a good check. Cycling through to generate fresh options is sorely needed.

5. Upgrading to tier 2 and 3 epics should be difficult enough that we pick and choose where we are going to invest the time.

How to implement it?

a. Dungeon tokens would be a mistake, at least beyond the typical 20-30 as used in dragon armor and other upgrades. Sure, I could drop 100 dungeon tokens to make the best SoS on DDO, but that takes away from the idea that tier 1s should be relatively attainable. It makes epics more grindy instead of less, because your tier 1s would suck more and have more opportunity cost. "Sorry Rocka, I couldn't put greater false life on my epic party favor gloves, because I am working on my Real Rogue sexy stick I aim to complete by Nov 2012. -- Dresek

b. End rewards.

This is the biggest flaw in epic. A hugely underused potential. Fernando Paiz and I had a rainbow moment of zen and connectedness today when he mentioned end rewards in his post.

End rewards should drop crafting components (like the marks in the marketplace, or the bits in the house D quests) that can be used to upgrade any epic item or any epic item in that area.

OK, and while I'm at it, Devs, if I don't pull an Uber Gem of Upgrade My Underwear, I want some renown in my end reward list, because it is insulting that I am more 'renowned' for running two year old stuff than an epic raid like chronoscope or quest like chains of flame. Consider an automatic 2500 or better.

Oh, back to my point. So you pull your widget X and your bauble y. Combine x and y, cannibalize an epic energy cell*, throw some chocolate syrup and 20 dungeon tokens on top, and hey, you got a Smokin Tier 2 Epic Chaosblade that is actually better than freebie party favors.

*Epic energy cells were discovered on the ddo compendium and seem to be made by crunching any epic weapon or greensteel. It's like the Shroud high energy cells combined with crunching a bold trinket used in making crystal cove tier 3s - give something up to make something.

6. 20th end rewards should epic[/b]. Let us get our scrolls of the Torc for running DQ 20 times, or a uberpants gem to upgrade one item from tier 2 to tier 3. We gamers love progress.

Conclusion

What we end up with is a system where it is less headachy to make some epics, where we are happier to make any epics and don't groan when we pull the "wrong" seal or shard, and the truly focused can get their ePeens up by having one really sick sword on their sexy swashbuckler instead of ten toons toting titanium twin Timeblades. Something for everyone. Everyone who isn't a flower-sniffing newb, I mean.

Anthios888
02-28-2011, 02:05 PM
P.S. - Please give epic some attention! They're cool, but there are a few holes and things left to be desired.

http://liology.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/rainbow.jpg

maddmatt70
02-28-2011, 02:12 PM
Well one comment I have is I hate admin time in both the real world and game. One of the biggest flaws of the pirate event is admin time was increased because we had to spend alot of time figuring out what to make, changing one ingredient for another, and actually making each item with multiple upgrades. Considering admin time used to be virtually nill prior to the shroud with just one bound to character item in raids or an unbound item in a quests I can not help but miss those old days. I wasted so much time doing admin instead of actually playing the game this weekend. I would encourage Turbine to reduce admin time and keep it at a minimum; however, they want to do that.

stoolcannon
02-28-2011, 02:24 PM
I have this weird feeling today. As I lay in bed not sleeping last night, I was obsessed with the idea of how they should do epic in DDO going forward. I didn't need any more of a hint that the 3 (or more) tier Crystal Cove grind is probably a precursor to the epic "rehauled" system.

1. All of our epics that we currently have should become tier 1 epics.

Because if it's not getting better, I'm not grinding more for it.

2. Tier 2 and 3 should be a mix of set upgrades and customizable upgrades

Hopefully more creative and diverse than the current slots -- there are only so many ways we can want to fit 6 dex and 1 con on our gear. I'm not going to make a list of my selfish wish gear like every other thread about epic. Regardless of what I want, many more combinations and unique abilities would be really good for this game. Niche stuff is not bad, even if ten Real Rogues cry every time a trapsmithing item or glancing blows item or unarmed item or armor class item is introduced. The more focused gear is, the more it will be utilized. And, in combination, the more customizable, the more diversity we can see. Craftable guards, superior elemental resistances, clickies a la dimension door, break enchantment, protection from elements, teleport, good hope.

The reason we need them semi-set is to help power balance the items. Sword of Shadow needs a bit less help than Whirlwind. Whirlwind might never be the same. But what if it made the Whirlwind feat worth taking?

3. Tier 1s should be a bit easier.

Rocka System (tm) would justify tweaking drop rates for the worst grinds, see desert items, because they would no longer be quite the best of the best (Hey, let's not argue whether your house p fireball necklace is the best of the best).

4. Exchange my stuff I don't want for stuff I do want.

Example: Turn in a shard, seal, or scroll + 10 dungeon tokens for a typical end reward list of epic loot in that adventure pack. You pick the item: list of shards, seals, or scroll). Please avoid a system that encourage ninjaing every item and taking them out of the rolloff player-preferred system. I don't need to loot every seal of the ring of venom in my 200th run of Last Stand (true story omg). I want to give it away. That's why tying it to actual completions (dungeon tokens or crafting ingredients) is a good check. Cycling through to generate fresh options is sorely needed.

5. Upgrading to tier 2 and 3 epics should be difficult enough that we pick and choose where we are going to invest the time.

How to implement it?

a. Dungeon tokens would be a mistake, at least beyond the typical 20-30 as used in dragon armor and other upgrades. Sure, I could drop 100 dungeon tokens to make the best SoS on DDO, but that takes away from the idea that tier 1s should be relatively attainable. It makes epics more grindy instead of less, because your tier 1s would suck more and have more opportunity cost. "Sorry Rocka, I couldn't put greater false life on my epic party favor gloves, because I am working on my Real Rogue sexy stick I aim to complete by Nov 2012. -- Dresek

b. End rewards.

This is the biggest flaw in epic. A hugely underused potential. Fernando Paiz and I had a rainbow moment of zen and connectedness today when he mentioned end rewards in his post.

End rewards should drop crafting components (like the marks in the marketplace, or the bits in the house D quests) that can be used to upgrade any epic item or any epic item in that area.

OK, and while I'm at it, Devs, if I don't pull an Uber Gem of Upgrade My Underwear, I want some renown in my end reward list, because it is insulting that I am more 'renowned' for running two year old stuff than an epic raid like chronoscope or quest like chains of flame. Consider an automatic 2500 or better.

Oh, back to my point. So you pull your widget X and your bauble y. Combine x and y, cannibalize an epic energy cell*, throw some chocolate syrup and 20 dungeon tokens on top, and hey, you got a Smokin Tier 2 Epic Chaosblade that is actually better than freebie party favors.

*Epic energy cells were discovered on the ddo compendium and seem to be made by crunching any epic weapon or greensteel. It's like the Shroud high energy cells combined with crunching a bold trinket used in making crystal cove tier 3s - give something up to make something.

6Additionally, let 20th end rewards be epic-level ingredients. Let us get our scrolls of the Torc for running DQ 20 times. We gamers love progress.

Conclusion

What we end up with is a system where it is less headachy to make some epics, where we are happier to make any epics and don't groan when we pull the "wrong" seal or shard, and the truly focused can get their ePeens up by having one really sick sword on their sexy swashbuckler instead of ten toons toting titanium twin Timeblades. Something for everyone. Everyone who isn't a flower-sniffing newb, I mean.

So, will my 4am masterminding be right?

You've got some good ideas in there. I might actually complete chrono now and again instead of recalling if I could get 2500 favor for starters.

This is certainly a better system than what we have now. At the very least I'd like to see it tweaked so we could trade in a certain number of tokens + random scroll/shard/seal to get the item we need as opposed to that 200th necklace of venom seal that we all have sitting in our pack.

Kamo
02-28-2011, 02:26 PM
Not sure if it would work perfectly, but it would be a great improvement from the system we have now

Anthios888
02-28-2011, 02:29 PM
Well one comment I have is I hate admin time in both the real world and game. One of the biggest flaws of the pirate event is admin time was increased because we had to spend alot of time figuring out what to make, changing one ingredient for another, and actually making each item with multiple upgrades.

This is sooo true. I felt like this event just had too much **** I had to sort out.

I am a huge advocate of getting in the quest and doing it. As far as what I wrote above, I was thinking like, I would be making one tier 2 or 3 item every few weeks, not every night. And I'm not talking about a 16 ingredient thing like greensteel. Maybe more like on your 20th you get a Shroud-esquecleansing gem and you can pick one and throw it in the altar with your uberloot and make an ubererloot.

The mechanic for crunching dungeon tokens should be fixed.

Anthios888
02-28-2011, 02:31 PM
I might actually complete chrono now and again instead of recalling.

That's Lame (tm). :P

maddmatt70
02-28-2011, 02:39 PM
This is sooo true. I felt like this event just had too much **** I had to sort out.

I am a huge advocate of getting in the quest and doing it. As far as what I wrote above, I was thinking like, I would be making one tier 2 or 3 item every few weeks, not every night. And I'm not talking about a 16 ingredient thing like greensteel. Maybe more like on your 20th you get a Shroud-esquecleansing gem and you can pick one and throw it in the altar with your uberloot and make an ubererloot.

The mechanic for crunching dungeon tokens should be fixed.

I like your concepts and like everybody feels like epic could use some work from a system standpoint. It was so nice though back in the day when we ran a reaver raid and the madstone boots dropped and you got them and that was it and you just went out and did another quest. Imagine how much time would be spent on each tier with the madstone boots with the pirate event system: first tier get together emerald and diamonds to turn into doubloons, then find the combination to make the first tier of the boots (lets say that makes the potency on the boots and creates the actual boots), then do the same for the second tier of the boots (this one adds the dex), then you need to make a greater bold trinket which is three tiers in of itself, then you combine the bold trinket with the madstone boots to get the madstone effect. 10 minutes just went by doing all that stuf and then if the madstone boots were made epic there is a slot where I need to add tokens to add something to that slot which requires epic tokens and the like. Man something must be said for just looting a pair of boots and calling it a day like it used to be.

Kamo
02-28-2011, 02:44 PM
I like your concepts and like everybody feels like epic could use some work from a system standpoint. It was so nice though back in the day when we ran a reaver raid and the madstone boots dropped and you got them and that was it and you just went out and did another quest. Imagine how much time would be spent on each tier with the madstone boots with the pirate event system: first tier get together emerald and diamonds to turn into doubloons, then find the combination to make the first tier of the boots (lets say that makes the potency on the boots and creates the actual boots), then do the same for the second tier of the boots (this one adds the dex), then you need to make a greater bold trinket which is three tiers in of itself, then you combine the bold trinket with the madstone boots to get the madstone effect. 10 minutes just went by doing all that stuf and then if the madstone boots were made epic there is a slot where I need to add tokens to add something to that slot which requires epic tokens and the like. Man something must be said for just looting a pair of boots and calling it a day like it used to be.

I have to disagree to a point, just pulling any of these epic cove items in a chest would be much less interesting. IMO

Cyr
02-28-2011, 02:45 PM
I just read another post like this today...

It was fairly simple and logical and put the upgrades specific to the part of the item you upgrade (seal/shard/scroll) with an alternate generic cost (tokens) for each tier. Basically it created a 3 tier system, but each tier is different based upon the item used for upgrade.

With a 20th completion system for epic ingredients and end rewards dropping crafting ingredients the generic cost alternative could be safely done away with creating a system much like you are discussing.

I have no objections to 'customizable' upgrades, but really that is what we are getting right now with augments. The only real issue is that there are so few available options and types of slots. I would be less thrilled with a system that relied upon individual item upgrade paths being created because that would be more time consuming for the devs for less overall diversity of items.

Cyr
02-28-2011, 02:47 PM
I have to disagree to a point, just pulling any of these epic cove items in a chest would be much less interesting. IMO

I always thought a hybrid system in this regard would be best. In this type of system a crafting mechanic with base ingredients would be pretty typical drops with very rare drops being fully upgraded or partially upgraded items. This provides the best of both worlds with the 'oh wow' moments along with the steady progression of a crafting system.

Anthios888
02-28-2011, 04:39 PM
I have to disagree to a point, just pulling any of these epic cove items in a chest would be much less interesting. IMO

There should be both. We like to customize things... it's part of the whole building fetish a lot of people have for this game. But, sometimes, you should just get some loot. And matt's right, too -- fishing for squirrel hides or whatever like other games is lame.

There is no reason they cannot balance the random drops with the feeling of progression.

Some items might just be not "epic" enough to warrant a whole elaborate scheme. Maybe they want some epics to be more common or iconic. Epic Zawabi's Revenge drops base items for desert items, and this is a great idea. Nothing wrong with adding new bound an unbound named items. We love loot.

The second way we might want an actual item drop is where there are some items that are insanely rare under the current system. The Shard of the Ring of Spell Storing is the main one that comes to mind. For those that are uneducated on Desert drop rates, you could timer like five toons for an entire year on epic ADQ and not be statistically likely to pull this item. And if you're the guy scraping buy on raid completions, it's half again as likely to drop there. It's like Turbine said, hey, this item might be too powerful, so let's make it rare. Fair enough. I can accept that. Maybe they want it to be cool.

But the current system has the McDonalds Monopoly problem. Everyone is running around with two of the three tabs thinking they are big shots, while the Boardwalk is actually in the trash can in some 7-year-old's happy meal. Give me a break.

So, the game should drop the actual item. Example: Epic Helm of the Red Dragon is one of these wombats. +3 and +4 tomes are another. The wombat was random mob that was rumored to teleport around this old game I played. I never saw it. But some said that it dropped fabulous treasure if you happened into it.

Even in a system with wombats, let's have some sense of progression on most items. No more missing Boardwalks with no idea if the next happy meal or the 200th will be the piece you need.

valorik
02-28-2011, 05:20 PM
I really think that having epic dropping full items is a great idea.

I wouldn't just limit it to your wombat situations, one of the major complaints I hear about epic is that it doesn't feel rewarding if you don't do it a lot. I would think that having some weaker epics drop as a whole would provide more excitement and incentive for people to run certain epic quests, without committing to running it a hundred time to get what you want. You could also add drops to improve these items similar to your ways to improve other epic items.

Anthios888
03-01-2011, 02:06 PM
I would think that having some weaker epics drop as a whole would provide more excitement and incentive for people to run certain epic quests, without committing to running it a hundred time to get what you want. You could also add drops to improve these items similar to your ways to improve other epic items.

No kidding. It would be nice if the "base" items we were pulling were not just for lowbies. Maybe higher level content will help fix that in itself. None of the raid loot we have been upgrading over the last 12 months has been higher than level 12 to begin with.

Thrudh
03-01-2011, 02:19 PM
I don't do epic because of the random loot problem...

I didn't do Reaver's Refuge for the same reason (now it's worth doing with the changes).

I do the Shroud and all the raids, because every time I complete... I'm closer to my goal... I've made progress (even if it's only a raid completion towards 20).

I can run epic all night and make zero progress.

I don't play that game.

Souless
03-01-2011, 09:15 PM
As I have posted on this topic often I will keep my rant to a minimum...

1. The dropping of full epic gear is garbage. U minimize my grind by giving away loot for nothing invested.

2. An overhaul of the 20th completion list has already been suggested a number of times...that being said however, doesn't minimize the fact that at least this phase of epics should be implemented.

3. Trading in unwanted seals/scrolls/shards/loot for items that we do want has also been suggested...This is something I'm actually on the fence about. Because it will minimize the grind that I've already underwent for my ubar cake...but it will allow me to finally get that ring shard I've been missing since the inception of epics...(I pulled the seal and the scroll on the first day of epics in my first run of ewk). I have only seen 1 shard drop and Stanley stomped my heart out by immeadiately rolling a 100 for it (thanks Brenna).....but I digress....my point here is I'm just not sure I'm in favor of this change.

4. The additional powers/abilities has also been previously suggested...and this is another phase of epic crafting I think should be implemented. How many featherfall items do I need, really?

5. Appearance: This has also been previously suggested (and by me as well) and although u don't actually adress this in ur post I think this may be a good place for it. MAKE MY EPIC LOOT LOOK EPIC!!!!!! Stinkin level 12 items look better!!!


Anyway, nice post even if it is rehashing stuff that has already been suggested....I do like the mechanic of what ur attempting here.

The Bytcher~

Souless/Spectyr/Xbow/Tazzor/Xindao/Vampir/Valice/Richgirl

kernal42
03-01-2011, 09:42 PM
3. Trading in unwanted seals/scrolls/shards/loot for items that we do want has also been suggested...This is something I'm actually on the fence about.

Trading in unwanted loot for wanted loot is a bad thing. It definitely encourages greedy shard/seal grabbing rather than passing the unwanted loot to another party member.

Trading in crafted epic loot as an ingredient for later upgrades is just as bad; it means you'll take stuff you can't use, even if someone else can use it, because you want to trash it for an upgrade.

The exception to this is if there's an item whose sole purpose appears to be in later upgrades (such as the trinkets in the Event). In this case, everyone wants it for the same reason, so looting it for yourself is fine.

-Kernal

Anthios888
03-01-2011, 10:28 PM
Trading in unwanted loot for wanted loot is a bad thing. It definitely encourages greedy shard/seal grabbing rather than passing the unwanted loot to another party member.

Absolutely true. This is a problem unless, as I suggested, the unwanted loot is combined with a limiting factor that does not make your ability to exchange items dependent on possession of shards, seals, and scrolls, but on spending some time successfully doing epic quests. My suggestion was 10 dungeon tokens + 1 shard to tie it to the area = reward list of shards for that area. Or, unwanted item + 1 independent reward given every X completions.

skepticalsoul
03-01-2011, 10:49 PM
Can I be completely 100% honest with you? Who cares when epics are going the direction of House Phiarlan Carnival? I love epics, but I don't give a **** about epic loot if what I did was not challenging whatsoever to get it. All this is fine and dandy but lets address the real issue here. The only challenging epics in the game are the desert epics. Period. Lets fix that first.

Anthios888
03-02-2011, 09:34 AM
Can I be completely 100% honest with you? Who cares when epics are going the direction of House Phiarlan Carnival? I love epics, but I don't give a **** about epic loot if what I did was not challenging whatsoever to get it. All this is fine and dandy but lets address the real issue here. The only challenging epics in the game are the desert epics. Period. Lets fix that first.

I'm not really sure how epic is any different than non-epic wail of the banshee spamming or raid beatdown farming. Each quest has its own challenges and there are multiple good strategies to beat them. So, why not just avoid House P like I do if it is not fun for you?

Samadhi
03-02-2011, 04:03 PM
I really think that having epic dropping full items is a great idea.

I wouldn't just limit it to your wombat situations, one of the major complaints I hear about epic is that it doesn't feel rewarding if you don't do it a lot. I would think that having some weaker epics drop as a whole would provide more excitement and incentive for people to run certain epic quests, without committing to running it a hundred time to get what you want. You could also add drops to improve these items similar to your ways to improve other epic items.

This is definitely one of my biggest complaints with the pirate event as well as standard epics. There is no change to get lucky with a single run (or even 10 runs) and get something that you want. Sure I might not be *likely* to get a Litany my first abbot; but it is possible, which means that if I have a half hour to kill this feels like something worthwhile to do. If I have a half hour to kill, and BEST case scenario is I get one piece out of four that I need to make something... I don't do it, because what's the point. I almost quit the game when shroud was added, because as fun as customization can sometimes be, it just does not entertain me to run a quest when I *know* for a fact that I will not get instant gratification.

For me, a 1% chance of instant gratification, is worth far more than the equivalent "you have acquired 1 part of 100 that you need; please enjoy the next year of knowing that you won't get anything."

ArchStriker
03-05-2011, 09:35 AM
But the current system has the McDonalds Monopoly problem. Everyone is running around with two of the three tabs thinking they are big shots, while the Boardwalk is actually in the trash can in some 7-year-old's happy meal. Give me a break.




Lol

yk49
03-05-2011, 09:52 AM
all epic item we have now should become tier3. base item and one component (scroll, seal or shard) it becomes t1, you find another component then it can be upgraded t2. you find the last piece and it becomes shiny t3. that was what i was thinking while the smugglers event.

sorta coincidence huh?

bryanmeerkat
03-05-2011, 10:00 AM
all epic item we have now should become tier3. base item and one component (scroll, seal or shard) it becomes t1, you find another component then it can be upgraded t2. you find the last piece and it becomes shiny t3. that was what i was thinking while the smugglers event.

sorta coincidence huh?

I was just about to post the same thing , having read through the ideas its certainly one that has merit . This would make getting an epic item reasonable but getting the best of the epic item still huge . But you at least feel as if you are making progress in a much more real way .

Anthios888
03-05-2011, 12:46 PM
This is where I disagree. I don't think diluted epic items would fix much of anything, which is why I suggested that current epics become tier 1, maintaining a Modified McDonalds Monopoly system. I know everyone has their horror story about bad luck in epic, but it is quite possible to make a few epics (perhaps not the very best) without a lot of work. And once you start getting a basic list of seals, scrolls, and shards in the bank, you start hitting the trifecta more and more often. Some weekends I have made six or ten epics because things fell into place. Most people just don't give themselves a chance because they had bad luck with one thing, have not taken the time to learn the quest, or heard so much negativity about epic. If DDO implements any kind of end reward epic loot / 20th list epic loot / item exchange system, it will be even easier to complete first tier items. I think it should be easier to make epics, but not so easy that you can make three on your first night playing through.

A sense of progress is good. But reducing the system to immediate gratification is not good long term.